Castrol 10w60 TWS [Archive] - Bimmerforums

shalashaska1985

07-05-2007, 10:18 PM

Hey guys......
wut do u think about this oil in our engines????
it was recomended by a very good mechanic + BMW dealer (M Power specialiest)........

Iguana8334

07-05-2007, 10:35 PM

sounds good to me, solid lifter motor shouldnt go below 10w50 anyways and castrol is good stuff

morerevsm3

07-05-2007, 10:53 PM

S50B30 and S50B32 should be using synthetic (preferably ester based) 0W-40 or 5W-40 oil, the TWS is too thick, dealers will use and recomend it because that is the closest to suitable oil that they have in stock

Iguana8334

07-05-2007, 11:51 PM

oh wait, i thought tws was synthetic, u can still use 10w60 for a solid lifter motor which ur S50b30 is. the guys that work on e46 m3's at my local stealership recomend 60 weight

morerevsm3

07-06-2007, 02:07 AM

oh wait, i thought tws was synthetic, u can still use 10w60 for a solid lifter motor which ur S50b30 is. the guys that work on e46 m3's at my local stealership recomend 60 weight
Tws is synthetic, BUT
60 weight is correct for S54, it is not ok for S50..

Philip A

07-06-2007, 06:36 AM

My understanding is that the TWS was specified for twin vanos S52 motors as a response to the failures that they were experiencing.

I have never seen anything recommending TWS 10-60 for single vanos S50.

There is a document called BMW Special Oils List which specifies all approved oils for M50, S50 etc etc as at about 2004. This includes numerous "dino" oils and also synthetics. I found it by Googling , so I suggest that you may find it if you are interested
Most are 30 or 40 hot weights.

I think (as does BMW) that for road use a 50 weight is overkill and just slows you down. Dealers on the other hand just like to stick the fabulously expensive TWR in all M3s.
I currently use Royal Purple 10-40 synthetic and I am very pleased with a definite reduction in Vanos/timing chain noise. Peak performance in Sydney run racing M3s and also use and sell it.
Regard s Philip A

shalashaska1985

07-06-2007, 08:00 AM

the TWS is also fully synth... but as said before its too thick.
i am already using it in my s50b30, ticking noise is reduced but the car feels much slower + Sluggish.....
i really dont know wut to pour in this engine...the 5w40 seems to be not good enough since i can hear more ticking when using it.....

Philip A

07-06-2007, 08:39 AM

I would be running a synthetic 50 in Dubai, considering summer temps can be 40Plus Celcius. Depends on what your oil temp reads on a hot day. Does it stay down at 90C or go over 100C.
Regards Philip A

byl

07-06-2007, 01:07 PM

in europe almost everyone seems to be using TWS in these engine.

Mr.M

07-06-2007, 01:33 PM

-60 would be excessive for a car except at the track. Oil temps just won't be high enough to warrant such a thick oil.

shalashaska1985

07-06-2007, 02:28 PM

actually temps. are more than 45+ here is UAE....and the guage is always reading 100c and sometimes slightly more....
but as i said before i have this feeling that my car is feeling sluggish:mad....

jvit27

07-06-2007, 02:50 PM

in europe almost everyone seems to be using TWS in these engine.

Yes, but EU gets Castrol EDGE which is much better than the Castrol TWS we get in the states. I assume they recm'd such a high weight due to the heat associated with such a high revving motor, but does not seem logical since most of the vanos failures were due to engine oil being too thick. Not warming it up enough combined with narrow passages is what was the main cause of the failures.

FWIW I just put in 10w40 Valvoline dino oil for break-in. It is very hot here though, usually in the 90's everyday with high humidity.

Will be flushing it after the first 500mi with Amsoil 5w40 European Car Formula
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/afl.aspx
Have had very good luck with Amsoil in 2 stroke applications for many years, I beleive they make a very good product.

byl

07-07-2007, 01:06 PM

From what I've heard vanos failure are due to:
1-vanos filter not changed
2- oil to light, runny at high temps so not a good lubrification

my car on the track can go to 115 to 120°C (207-220 of your funny units)
Also on the side note, most vanos failure were due to solenoid valves failure, but more economical for BMW to change a $3k part :rolleyes and rebuilt the faulty unit to be sold for 3k again...

if you guys are interested in our castrol TWS (if it is any different, there no mention of edge on my bottles) I have a friend who is a castrol agent, he could sort you out (I believe it aroound $16/bottle, 25 at the stealer)

Razziel24

07-07-2007, 01:51 PM

what about the Mobil 1 5w50 Synthetic ? is it ok for our vanos units ?

shalashaska1985

07-07-2007, 03:43 PM

byl

07-07-2007, 05:30 PM

yep, there is one, it's on the vanos unit, #9:
realoem (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BF91&mospid=47432&btnr=11_1304&hg=11&fg=15)

just unscrew, (alen key) and put the new one in place, 2mins job

shalashaska1985

07-07-2007, 05:47 PM

S**t man i cant find oem spark plugs for my car here in uae, how am i suppose to this filter......
does any oil leak when performing the filter change??? i mean sure there will be but is it alot????

morerevsm3

07-07-2007, 10:03 PM

50 weight is too thick, should be 30 or 40 weight synthetic, even here where summer temps are often in excess of 45*C

*edit, copied from another forum, posted by oil expert, specifically about S50N30 and S50B32 engines*

I read on many forums about 0w and 5w oils being too thin.

0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 and 15w-40 are all the same thickness (14 centistokes) at 100degC.

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

So, all oils that end in 40 (sae 40) are around 14cst thickness at 100degC.

This applies to all oils that end in the same number, all oils that end in 50 (sae 50) are around 18.5cst at 100degC and all oils that end in 60 (sae 60) are around 24cst at 100degC.

With me so far?

Great!

Now, ALL oils are thicker when cold. Confused? It's true and here is a table to illustrate this.

SAE 40 (straight 40)

Temp degC.........................Viscosity (thickness)

0..........................................2579cst
20..........................................473cst
40..........................................135cst
60..........................................52.2cs t
100........................................ 14cst
120.........................................8.8cst

As you will see, there is plenty of viscosity at 0degC, in fact many times more than at 100degC and this is the problem especially in cold weather, can the oil flow quick enough to protect vital engine parts at start up. Not really!

So, given that an sae 40 is 14cst at 100degC which is adequate viscosity to protect the engine, and much thicker when cold, how can a 0w oil be too thin?

Well, it can't is the truth.

The clever part (thanks to synthetics) is that thin base oils can be used so that start up viscosity (on say a 5w-40 at 0degC) is reduced to around 800cst and this obviously gives much better flow than a monograde sae 40 (2579cst as quoted above).

So, how does this happen, well as explained at the beginning, it's all about temperature, yes a thin base oil is still thicker when cold than at 100degC but the clever stuff (due to synthetics again) is that the chemists are able to build these oils out of molecules that do not thin to less than 14cst at 100degC!

What are the parameters for our recommendations?
Well, we always talk about good cold start protection, by this we mean flow so a 5w will flow better than a 10w and so on. This is why we recommend 5w or 10w as the thickest you want to use except in exceptional circumstances. Flow is critical to protect the engine from wear!

We also talk about oil temps, mods and what the car is used for. This is related to the second number xw-(XX) as there may be issues with oil temperatures causing the oil to be too thin and therefore the possibility of metal to metal contact.

This is difficult to explain but, if for example your oil temp does not exceed 120degC at any time then a good "shear stable" sae 40 is perfectly capable of giving protection.

"Shear stability" is important here because if the oil shears it thins and that's not good!

However, if you are seeing temperatures in excess of 120degC due to mods and track use etc then there is a strong argument to using an sae 50 as it will have more viscosity at these excessive temperatures.

There are trade offs here. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so it's always best to use the thinnest oil (i.e. second number) that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure.

I hope this helps explain a bit.

Cheers

Guy.
_________________
oilmans website : www.opieoils.co.uk
e-mail : sales@opieoils.co.uk

Razziel24

07-07-2007, 10:43 PM

very interesting, thanks for the info :buttrock

Philip A

07-07-2007, 11:00 PM

S**t man i cant find oem spark plugs for my car here in uae, how am i suppose to this filter......
does any oil leak when performing the filter change??? i mean sure there will be but is it alot????

None came out of mine when I changed it. The bloody little screw/filter cost me A$35 !!!! plus washer from the local BMW dealer. Talk about screwed!!!

Looking at it, I do not really think it needs changing only cleaning. Mine did have a lot of crap on the outside and I originally just blew back from the inside with CO2 spray, which made the gauze clean. I have kept the old one but it is redundant now I have a new one.
Surely you have a BMW dealer in Dubai. Seeing all those X5s burning along the ring road at 200KMH.
Regard sPhilip A

Philip A

07-07-2007, 11:10 PM

Just another couple of points re Vanos.
It is now clear to me that thereis a LOT of stress on the Vanos solonoid cover bolts.
One of my Allen screw heads was broken off. I ordered a new gasket because I figured the gasket was important for the preload on the solonoid o- rings. I ordered new bolts , but they are yet to arrive from Germany, so I found a normal screw with the correct thread and cut it to correct length. When I tightened the bolts up, I was surprised how tightening one then loosened all the others. This suggests that there is a lot of stress on the cover.
My engine is now MUCH quieter . It had a rattle at just above idle which I thought was timing chain, but now it is largely gone.
I do not know whether it is the clean Vanos filter, the tighter solonoids, or the Royal Purple oil, but there you are.
I suggest everyone checks their vanos Solonoid cover bolts.
Regards Philip A

byl

07-08-2007, 02:21 AM

S**t man i cant find oem spark plugs for my car here in uae, how am i suppose to this filter......
does any oil leak when performing the filter change??? i mean sure there will be but is it alot????

no not really. Do it as you change your fluid. For parts, I can ship them out to you if you have difficulties getting them. ;) Where are you in the UAE? I have a friend working with me here, he is from saoudi arabia (near the kuweit, spelling? :confused) border and I am sure he'll be willing to help if it can faciulitates things.

byl

07-08-2007, 02:30 AM

morerevs: is that from oilman @oilspie? (duh, just read the very end of the thread :embarrasm)If it is this guy clearly know his stuff and I would be enclined to trust him, but I kidd you not if I tell you that here, when selling the car, if you don't use TWS buyers wont like it.

shalashaska1985

07-08-2007, 06:13 AM

shalashaska1985

07-08-2007, 06:17 AM

no not really. Do it as you change your fluid. For parts, I can ship them out to you if you have difficulties getting them. ;) Where are you in the UAE? I have a friend working with me here, he is from saoudi arabia (near the kuweit, spelling? :confused) border and I am sure he'll be willing to help if it can faciulitates things.

well i really appreciate ur offer but i already called the dealer in dubai and the said that they dont have it and they r gonna check with there other branch in abu-dabi (bcz they r two different dealer for BMW :shifty in same country)

byl

07-08-2007, 01:01 PM

be carefull not overtighting the screws.

shalashaska1985

07-08-2007, 04:06 PM

so i have to go over and retight the srews or get a set of new ones??? (as if am gonna find a set of them :()

byl

07-08-2007, 04:56 PM

if you have the etk, just check that they are tighten to the correct torq value.

Philip A

07-08-2007, 08:48 PM

Philip so ur saying that tighting ur srews of the vanos cover did reduce the engine rattle (i have just the same rattle ur speaking about when reving just above the idle)......how did u clean ur vanos filter????
which screws ru exactly refering to????

The screws are No17.
The context is that mine were all loose and one broken and oil was leaking down the front of the engine. Tracing the oil leak is what led me to find the loose screws. I suggest you tighten them to the correct torque or failing that, do as I do and judge it. You will not have them too tight if using a normal Allan key. But I found I had to tighten in sequence as after I tightened one the others became loose. If you cannot easily tighten them they are OK.
The oil filter screw is No9.

I just sprayed from inside with electronic component cleaner. Anything like WD40 should be OK. Component cleaner has no residue.

As I said , I did three things at once so I cannot say for sure which made the engine quieter. They were
1 new gasket and bolt for vanos solonoid cover and tight rather than loose.
2 new Vanos filter
3 Royal Purple 10-40 ( Replacing Texaco 10-50 full synth)
Regards Philip A

synkro

07-09-2007, 05:32 AM

Just changed the oil with castrol tws. it seems to be fine for now. no strange noise or anything else...

Frederick

07-09-2007, 09:59 AM

Im use either 0-30 or 0-40 on my S50B32.

Mr.M

07-09-2007, 03:18 PM

actually temps. are more than 45+ here is UAE....and the guage is always reading 100c and sometimes slightly more....
but as i said before i have this feeling that my car is feeling sluggish:mad....

100C is good temp for -50 weights. Over 120 and I'd start to want thicker.

millm3

07-09-2007, 05:40 PM

there's nothing wrong with 10W60 TWS for S50 engines, but for those preferring a slightly thinner oil, I would recommend Mobil 1 5W50 Rally Formula.

http://rossavtohim.ru/i/p/image251.jpg

morerevsm3

07-09-2007, 09:27 PM

there's nothing wrong with 10W60 TWS for S50 engines, but for those preferring a slightly thinner oil, I would recommend Mobil 1 5W50 Rally Formula.

have problems reading? there is something wrong with TWS in S50's, it is too thick, unless you run oil temps above 120*C, 40 weight is maximum you should use, either 0W-40 or 5W-40 according to lubrication experts and BMW...

shalashaska1985

07-09-2007, 11:47 PM

What should i do.... take out almost 7 Litters that i paid 110$ for and pay another amount for a mobile1 0w40????
the car is running fine so far but sooo sluggish....

GazM3

07-10-2007, 02:18 AM

if its difficullt to get a vanos filter say in UAE just order it overseas, or blow the filter out with compressed air. also i agree on the 10w60 oil being too thick for the s50b30 and s50b32. there are plenty of good 0w40, 5w40 and 10w40 synthetic oils available.

byl

07-10-2007, 02:24 AM

have problems reading? there is something wrong with TWS in S50's, it is too thick, unless you run oil temps above 120*C, 40 weight is maximum you should use, either 0W-40 or 5W-40 according to lubrication experts and BMW...

The BMW dealers in their service price books put down TWS for all M fromthe E36 on, all 30 and 40 are noted as non compliant

morerevsm3

07-10-2007, 03:34 AM

The BMW dealers in their service price books put down TWS for all M fromthe E36 on, all 30 and 40 are noted as non compliant

only because that is all they carry in synthetic now, good pure ester synthetic 5W-40 oils like Silkolene pro S are BMW approved for a reason...

Frederick

07-10-2007, 12:16 PM

The BMW dealers in their service price books put down TWS for all M fromthe E36 on, all 30 and 40 are noted as non compliant

Because they cant be bothered to use different oil for the old defunct e36 M3. TWS is recomended for most post 2000 M models.

millm3

07-10-2007, 04:38 PM

have problems reading? there is something wrong with TWS in S50's, it is too thick, unless you run oil temps above 120*C, 40 weight is maximum you should use, either 0W-40 or 5W-40 according to lubrication experts and BMW...

no I don't have problems with reading. I have no problem with the text you copied above from some other forum, but I don't agree with your conclusion, that TWS is not a suitable oil for S50 engines ...oil temps above 120°C is something not unusual for Euro engines. At least if you drive your car hard on a hot summer day.

BMW clearly states that TWS 10W60 is a suitable oil for the S50, just check TIS or any other official BMW oil recommendation list (special oils). We can discuss that something like 5W50 is a better compromise for everday&track use.. no problem.

For many 0W40 may be the best choice, but for drivers who like best possible lubrification in extreme situations, there is nothing wrong with using an oil like 10W60.

If you don't like it, don't use that oil. But telling everybody that it is not suitable for the S50 makes no sense and repeating things or insulting people doesn't add more credibility to your posts.

morerevsm3

07-10-2007, 10:58 PM

no I don't have problems with reading. I have no problem with the text you copied above from some other forum, but I don't agree with your conclusion, that TWS is not a suitable oil for S50 engines ...oil temps above 120°C is something not unusual for Euro engines. At least if you drive your car hard on a hot summer day.

BMW clearly states that TWS 10W60 is a suitable oil for the S50, just check TIS or any other official BMW oil recommendation list (special oils). We can discuss that something like 5W50 is a better compromise for everday&track use.. no problem.

For many 0W40 may be the best choice, but for drivers who like best possible lubrification in extreme situations, there is nothing wrong with using an oil like 10W60.

If you don't like it, don't use that oil. But telling everybody that it is not suitable for the S50 makes no sense and repeating things or insulting people doesn't add more credibility to your posts.

for your information, my initial information that dealers recommend TWS because that is the only synthetic they now carry came straight from a dealer principle, who stated that if he had an S50B30/B32, he would use 5W-40 in his own car
I may also have a little practical experience with high ambient temps and extreme driving conditions...not just theory

breeze

07-11-2007, 03:14 PM

FWIW I have used TWS in my engine and hated it. Could actually tell the difference (yes you can quote and disagree if you must ;)) when using this over another my preferred oil - Silkolene Pro S 10w50.

Once upon a time BMW recommend TWS in some e39 M5 engines, all e46 M3 engines and (I think) every M engine since.

It appears that this has changed fairly recently to apply to all M cars regardless.

Certainly I can say that my dealer put TWS in my car because they were on a M->TWS policy before BMW changed their official recommendation - I know because I checked at the time (Jan 2005).

A manufacturer will make a recommendation for a number of reasons, not all of them in your best interests. I am happy with Silkolene and will be sticking with it.

Frederick

07-13-2007, 07:34 PM

BMW clearly states that TWS 10W60 is a suitable oil for the S50, just check TIS or any other official BMW oil recommendation list (special oils).

What version of the TIS are you using? I say this because the older version did indeed recommended TWS 10W60 for the S50B32 but the later TIS I have now does NOT.