Assume that I want a car for HPDE use only. I instruct, and when in that group I am trying to drive as fast as possible. Life/schedule doesn't accomidate w2w racing at this point. Car must stay street legal and maintain street safety (therefore no 6 point cage). Will be hard core (stripped interior, solid bushings, deleted a/c, etc.).

1) Assuming an E36 M3, do you choose a mostly stock motor, cam kit or FI. I assume stock motor has the most reliability, cam kit is a close second (but expensive per pony), FI has great power but cooling issues, drivetrain issues, etc. Which would you choose and why?

2) Assuming you are a 3 series fan, and have 15K to put into any car (not including purchase of the car)--what do you get. E36, E36M3, E46, E46M3, and coupe or sedan? Why (I lean away from the E46M3 because it is heavy, and because techs have said there are some continued engine reliability issues. I'd rather replace an E36 radiator versus an E46M engine)?

I am looking for 2 things--a pure race car driving experience (so the most accel, decel, and lateral G's, the least filtering of what the tires are doing, the best feel of the road surface) and a fast car (I track lap times with various timing devices). I know a Formula Ford, Corvette Z06, go kart, etc. might be better--but please assume I want to stay with a 3 series.

Thanks--Scott

I just made this decision 3 months ago....my criteria parallels yours along with staying with an e36. I decided on a 95M3 since it has a good start as far as brakes, sways, suspension upgrades over a regular E36. I also wanted OBDI since it's a little easier to work with both from an electrical side and an emissions inspection side.

1. I'm going turbo. My only concern is tuning. There are two options...standalone or custom chip tuning. Standalone gives me complete flexibility should I change my hardware. But it's going to come at a price of installation. There are some "unknowns" it seems with every qualifying standalone for the M3. Factory chip tuning is another good option. I know of 3-4 guys that are capable and turn out great OBDI tunes. Only problem here is getting the chip/car to the 3-4 guys if you ever make a hardware change.

Don't let the drivetrain of an M3 fool you as far as FI goes. These problems only occur if you're drag racing with 600whp. You will not encounter these same stress values on a road racing course. You will not bolt up slicks and drop the clutch at 6000rpm!! I also do not know of any cooling issues in FI unless something hasn't been done properly. Another GREAT option but often over-looked is supercharging. I think there are some fantastic values in supercharging for the M3 out there right now(compared to old prices, not compared to other vehicles).

This fall/winter I'll be rebuilding my 3.0 replacing pistons, rods, valve train and a GT35R turbo. I'll end up a little south of 500whp and have complete faith my stock M3 drivetrain will handle it as far as DE's etc go.

Why no cage? I don't understand your "street safety" comment? I'll be building one this fall/winter also as I believe it's an intergal part of doubling the HP and chassis performance of the vehicle. When you put slicks, coilovers, springs, etc the forces are tremendous with regards to the factory suspension. I feel a well-engineered cage is extremely important. I hate chassis flex.

I already have a M3 sedan so the choice to go "coupe" for my DE car was pretty easy for me. I think there are pro's/cons that amount to zilch when comparing each version...but I think the 2 door just looks "racier"?

Lots of great people on here that know 100x's more than I...hopefully they chime in.

Don

I would go with an ODBI M3. I had a 97 M3 that was a great car (it still is ask Brad), low maintenance, and easy on the $$$. It had the $300 Bilsteins on it, no adjustments either. It was stripped, and could still be registered, although not strictly street legal. I would leave the motor stock, replace the exhaust, cold air kit and lighten the poo out of it. Stock brakes with ducting. Change the oil every 1000 miles and get a shorter diff (important). All the other basic stuff, SS lines, etc. You will have a fun car that beats most others in a DE application, is reliable and neutral.

Brad is turning 1:41s at RA with my old car. The most tricked out IP car I know of turns a 36.

You should get a cage, and all the other safety stuff. Save $8000 of your budget for a Kia street car.

E46 is expensive and heavy as you said.

Chris

I would go with an ODBI M3. I had a 97 M3 that was a great car (it still is ask Brad), low maintenance, and easy on the $$$. It had the $300 Bilsteins on it, no adjustments either. It was stripped, and could still be registered, although not strictly street legal. I would leave the motor stock, replace the exhaust, cold air kit and lighten the poo out of it. Stock brakes with ducting. Change the oil every 1000 miles and get a shorter diff (important). All the other basic stuff, SS lines, etc. You will have a fun car that beats most others in a DE application, is reliable and neutral.


+1 on the stock motor and lightening the car.

But if the car is for DE's what's the point of making it faster than hell? People are slow at DE's even in instructor groups. So why have a monster track car when 3-5 times a lap you're going to idle through corners waiting for a point by?

FI? No, if you enjoying wrenching at the track instead of driving then sure go for it. :-)

I'd also get the cage even if I was driving to and from events. At least put in a 4 point roll bar. And I vote E36 M3 also, best bang for the buck decision.

Carlos.

First off, I'm suprised you haven't been reamed already, but I'm sure it will come. I'm not sure who you Instruct with, but you obviously don't come down to Cali and instruct with BMW CCA because we are only allowed to run during the A or B groups and we must always take a passenger and Explicitly Disallow timing.

You also should know as an Instructor, you don't need the most power to be the Fastest on the track.

With all that, you should just find a good condition E36 M3, put a RollBar in it, some race seats, some suspension, maybe Brake kit, and wheels/tires.

I don't know how many times I go to the track and see folks running crazy HP cars that are so damn slow in the corners, then DRAG race down the straight to the next corner. SO HP can make for fast Lap times, but it's not really what driving on the track is about.

Hm as a instructor you would have at least some idea of what it takes for a car to perform on track. FI can cause a lot of reliability problems which you don't need.

With 15K to blow, I would more or less do the following:

-Good braking system ie Stoptech $2000. Upgraded pads and euro rotors will do, but a BBK system is easier in daily use and if you drive a lot, you probably safe up on pad wear. The rotors though are more expensive. But a BBK allows you to run a somewhat 'lighter' pad making it somewhat more comfortable on the road.

-Proper race suspention system with rear coil over, camberplates and 2way damping adjustment, $3500. Just select springrates that are more or less streetable, ie +/- 630F 680R ( +/- 340 on rear coilver). Rates depending on axle weights.

-Shorter ratio LSD for example 3.91, upgraded to 40% lock. $1500

- R-Comp tires + second set of wheels $1500

- 2x bucket shell seat. $800
- 2x 6 point harness $400
- Half cage, or rear rollbar whatever you call it $600

-Front and rear strutbrace $500
-Xbrace $100
-Solid engine and tranny mounts $200

-CF of GRP bootlid and bonnet, $300 - $1500 depending on material and quality
-Plastic front and rear bumper, these are a lot lighter than stock ones $500

Rest of your $$$ I would put in renewing various engine parts like belts, upgraded euro radiator etc, possibly oil cooler. And buing replacement parts like extra set of brakepads etc.

You can widen your budget a bit by selling off the stuff you stripped out, ie interiour is worth good money if it's in good condition, bumpers will get you some money etc.

That's where I would go with 15K. But idea's of others vary :)

I understand your position. I was there a few years ago. At the time I didn't feel like I'd be racing but wanted to have more of a race car that was also street legal.

I'd say E36M3 is the way to go. Stay away from FI. I've resisted a cam kit for a number of reasons. You can put that money to much better uses. If you start with a 3.2L, do the M50 manifold upgrade, CAI, software and exhaust (maybe headers and crack pipe). Make that baby breath well and be done with it. Pretty decent HP and reliability. AND, reliability! Did I mention reliability? Do a good job on the cooling system too.

Here's the thing. You have to think about your safety if you want to go faster and drive at or near 10/10ths. At the least put a rear half cage in there. I did a full cage but had it done in a way that allowed keeping functional HVAC, full dash and was fairly easy to get in/out of. Even with my car the way it is now, it is street legal (except for lack of air bags and a horn button).

Jay

325 Racer: appropriate reamage accepted, with some comments. Most groups here have a separate instructor run group. I check with any new group and ask the CDI or HPDE chair about timing--if they say no, I don't time. Even in instructor run groups there are entire sessions where a clean lap is impossible. I always run slower when I have students with me (though it is not required that one take a student out each time).

Not to hijack my own thread, but the emphasis on "no timing" is fading some. I think the biggest reason is that with insurance companies specifically disallowing HPDE claims, organizers are somewhat less worried about "timing". There are still potential insurance issues, problems with bench racing, etc. On the other hand, there has been discussion for years over allowing video and lipstick cams, as they can almost all display a time stamp on the tape, which allows rough lap timing. Also there are lap timers appearing in Porsches, Audis and other cars as well.

Lastly, to be clear, I am not hell bent every lap on running at 10/10's. But a lap time is a reasonable metric to measure improvement, and when I have a clear track I work on improvement. Also, when I said I want to be a fast as I can be--that was a bit to emphasize that I don't necessarily want to move to a 318i (being used to an M3 and even faster cars), I wanted to raise the FI issue (which I assumed was a bad idea), and that I want to strive to continue to improve. I don't particularly enjoy huge horsepower cars on the track (I have one that also goes around corners like stink:))--otherwise I'd be buying a used Z06 and modding it.

Separate comments on the cage. I am really wrestling with this. Some say go with a full cage, FIA approved padding, a race seat and 5 point (or more) on the street and there is little risk of head/bar contact that would be serious. Turning to look over your shoulder when passing could be a problem though.

Others say to NEVER drive a car with a full cage (regardless of everything else) on the street without a helmet (which is illegal).

All this is about managing and alloting risk to different activities (driving to/from track, driving on the track)--I have no problems with installing a full cage, I just don't want to be "safety stupid" on the street.

I welcome everyone's opinions (and especially any real data/hard facts) on this.

Kinda agree with the no full cage part. Altough if you drive carefully it shouldn't matter. But I crashed a car with full cage once and can tell you these tubes are rockhard even with padding on them, I still have the scars on my left knee.

But it's just a guess, if you strip down the interior, you'll have exposed metal as well so ther is still a change to rock your head. Cagebar with padding might be less worse in that matter.

A different approach is your seat, a seat with large 'ears' protects you somewhat from the cage. If it's low enough and you are not a very long person you are quite far away from the cage.

As for the harness I would not like them to be on as it is a hassle during streetdriving, one of the reasons you allready state and that's looking over your shoulder. I know some guys leave in their stock seatbelts for short street trips and only use the 6 point on track.

And there is another thing, imagine you passing a cop on the street with full harnasses, and a helmet on. 99.9% probability of beeing pulled over I guess :D

Re: the cage on the street. How tall are you?

With a race seat appropriately mounted (low), the car stripped including headliner, and a cage that is very tight to the roof/body of the car, I don't worry about driving mine on the street, but I always strap in tightly with the 6-pts. I'm 5'9" and have several inches of head clearance in every direction.

Besides, the high-density rollbar padding is likely as good as the factory padded trim pieces (e.g. B-pillar covers ... there is steel under there, and not too far under there). I've watched the videos of belt stretch during accidents, and it seems highly, HIGHLY unlikely that my head would reach a cage bar in any street situation, to the point that an impact that would cause body/cage contact would be severe enough that I'd have other serious issues. I have toyed with the idea of wearing a bicycle helmet while driving the track car on the street, but I don't want cops to think I'm epileptic. :-)

All that said, I don't drive the car on the street unnecessarily. To/from the track, and to/from a shop whose owner generously lets me use a lift during off hours is the extent of it. With solid subframe mounts and a generally stiff car, minimizing street driving reduces the amount of inspection/repair time on suspension bits.

On visibility/lane changes: I installed a 5-panel Wink mirror and I really have no blind spot. Where the Wink's view is blocked by the B-pillar, the side mirror fills in the gap perfectly. Merging onto a curved road is about the only exception, and I'm still able to turn the head enough to sneak a peek over my shoulder.

I don't think I'm being stupid WRT safety, but perhaps others will disagree. Works for me though. The car is registered and tagged in PA; I'll have to take off the quick-release for the steering wheel and reinstall the horn button to pass my next inspection. No biggie, takes 10 minutes, or I may just wire the horn to a momentary button on the dash.

-tammer

I am kind of in the same boat as you but have already built my car. Today I don’t have the time to race, but do a full Auto-x schedule as well as instruct with the BMW and Porsche clubs. When building my car, I looked to not buy a bunch of stuff that would need to be removed when I do race (probably IP).

One of the things I did, that I am now kicking myself for, is a bolt in rollbar. I should have spent the money and just put in a rear cage. My interior is stripped from the seats back anyway. I try to put about 2-3k into the car each year. I have been doing this for about 5 years now, so it’s pretty well done.

I went the cam route from a reliability point. I drive the car to the track pulling my tire trailer. I don’t want to have to be put on a flatbed to get home.

The car is very fast, although I don’t usually push that hard at DEs, I only got passed by a GT2 at the last event.

Spend your money on a really good suspension, strip out the junk you don’t want. Put in the proper safety gear and your good to go.

$15K for a fast 3 series DE car? That's still street legal. Hmm...

You can pick up a used E36 M3 for $10K if you even halfway look (100K miles or so). Spend $2500 on suspension, another $1700 on wheels & tires, gut the interior to a large extent (lose 300+ pounds) then dump the rest of the money ($800) on a preventative maintenance run-thru of brakes, cooling, bushings, etc. That doesn't leave you any room for a cage (full or partial), go-fast power mods, racing seats/harnesses, making it look presentable, or much anything else.

CABimmer's M3 (the post above) would be a great car to emulate for DE's. On top of the formula listed above he has cams/exhaust (power), Wilwood brakes, a partial cage, and some usable aero (splitter + wing). Its usually the fastest car at a DE, but driving is always the biggest part of that equation.

If the $15K budget is set in stone you might be better off with a non-M E36. Get a '95 325is and save $5-6K up front, then dump that into a few more safety and go-fast goodies.

Oh yea... the "$2500 in suspension" was for this coilover kit/plates/shock mounts (http://www.vorshlag.com/cart/product_info.php?cPath=1_4_25_52&products_id=109) + a swaybar or two. The "$1700 in wheels & tires" included these 17x9 wheels (http://www.vorshlag.com/cart/index.php?cPath=1_4_41) and some 255/40/17 Falken RT615 tires. PM me if you want help spending that budget! :D

...I wanted to raise the FI issue (which I assumed was a bad idea), and that I want to strive to continue to improve. I don't particularly enjoy huge horsepower cars on the track (I have one that also goes around corners like stink:))--otherwise I'd be buying a used Z06 and modding it.
Forced Induction and track cars goes together like peanut butter and broiled SPAM.

Don't fall into this trap. You'll get 20 internet racers telling you "its fine" but those guys usually do one DE a year and go home puking coolant, on a flatbed. ;)

If you want horsepower and reliability, the old adage "there's no replacement for displacement" is still the best, cheapest way to go. If you want "Z06" power, but want to stay with the awesome E36 chassis... hmm... what to do... :devillook

$15K for a fast 3 series DE car? That's still street legal. Hmm...

See first post. 15K does not include the car--is for extras. Also, I would likely pull my TCK D/A Konis and TCK Camber plates off my current car. So I would need new springs only (in terms of dampers). Also already have a set of Kosei wheels. So I have lotsa (relatively) money for a cage/rollbar/whatever.

Also, I'm 5'10" tall but have a short torso. So in my M3 I have the seat raised as high as possible, and still have plenty of roof clearance with my helmet on.

On the other hand, there has been discussion for years over allowing video and lipstick cams, as they can almost all display a time stamp on the tape, which allows rough lap timing.



Ahhh, but there is a difference. You have to extract lap times after the fact. Most traditional lap timers have in-car displays and I've seen students looking at those every lap and 'racing' against themselves in a DE session. This distraction is the safety intent of the timing system ban most bodies adopt. Also, the line between a 'competitive timed event' (race/auto-x) and an 'educational environment' (DE) is a big one in the eyes of insurance costs/coverage. Most just don't want the risk of a blurry line between timing gear/no timing gear. Some just don't enforce it unless the insurance company is watching.....

A camera is a useful learning tool for many reasons. Lap time extraction is useful (though rough) as well but is not a distraction nor can it be used to make the event into a competition or time trial.

See first post. 15K does not include the car--is for extras. Also, I would likely pull my TCK D/A Konis and TCK Camber plates off my current car. So I would need new springs only (in terms of dampers). Also already have a set of Kosei wheels. So I have lotsa (relatively) money for a cage/rollbar/whatever.

Also, I'm 5'10" tall but have a short torso. So in my M3 I have the seat raised as high as possible, and still have plenty of roof clearance with my helmet on.
Ahh, it helps to read those pesky "words". :D

$15K to mod an M3 opens up lots of possibilities... Safety, go fast, brakes, cage. I'd still get larger than 8.5" wheels, tho.

Cage costs can vary wildly, as can the quality of the fab work and design. Some of the stuff I've seen bragged about looks like it was welded by the blind, and charged by the pound. :D

Ahhh, but there is a difference. You have to extract lap times after the fact. Most traditional lap timers have in-car displays and I've seen students looking at those every lap and 'racing' against themselves in a DE session. This distraction is the safety intent of the timing system ban most bodies adopt. Also, the line between a 'competitive timed event' (race/auto-x) and an 'educational environment' (DE) is a big one in the eyes of insurance costs/coverage. Most just don't want the risk of a blurry line between timing gear/no timing gear. Some just don't enforce it unless the insurance company is watching.....

A camera is a useful learning tool for many reasons. Lap time extraction is useful (though rough) as well but is not a distraction nor can it be used to make the event into a competition or time trial.

I agree here as well. My Traqmate lives entirely in the trunk (a friend triggers it in pre-grid)--I personally don't want to be distracted by lap times--so all of my "timing" is after the fact.

Thats a pretty good budget make a fast track car. Personally, I would spend 1500 on roll bar, seats, and harnesses (yes you should leave the seat belts in for the street). Another 2000 on power (CAI, chip, manifold, full exhaust, etc) to get you close to 240 at the wheels. 3k on some wide wheels and sticky rubber. 1.5k on replacing old parts/ maintenance and solid mounts. Get some nice rotors, pads, ss lines for another 1k. Then I would spend the remaining 6k on some nasty coil-overs and supporting suspension mods. Maybe some ohlins or something of that caliber.

I am about to do the same thing but likely not so radical right away. I have been tracking my 1991 M5 for 7 years so even a full-interior M3 will be lightweight to me. With respect to safety, my dilemma is I am telling my wife I can drive it on the street at least part time and am not sure I want to add roll protection. However, if I don't then no harnesses and no Hans. So, at least for now, I decided find a good example hopefully with a decent suspension, cooling system upgraded, all the weak points fixed, get some tires and wheels and track it--upgrading slowly until suddenly the wife says "what are those bars in your car?"

I figure even a well-set up street M3 will be seconds faster than the M5 and while not fast by any means I run mid-pack advanced groups in that car no problem with a Dinan suspension, R comps and all of its 3800lbs.

P.S. I should sell the M5 and get some modern daily driver but I can't bring myself to. I like it too much, won't get enough $$$ for it and know I will regret it.

Half cage $2,000
Wheels and tires $3000
AST, Moton, JRZ suspension $4000
Seats and Belts $2500
Cam kit $4000

$15,500 Sorry I went over a little.

...I'm 5'10" tall but have a short torso. So in my M3 I have the seat raised as high as possible, and still have plenty of roof clearance with my helmet on.That clearance can disappear very quickly if you have the misfortune to roll the car without a bar (unfortunately, I know and the gouge in the helmet attests to it).

Realize as well that it's not safe at all to run a car with a full harness, race seat and no roll cage. These first two safety items are meant to be only used with a roll cage.

I don't know what bar setup is available that will be street legal and not create a problem with regard to ones head, but I think you'd be well advised to explore that route.

If you end up not installing a bar then for safety you may want to limit yourself to the Scrotch harness. I can't remember what mine is called but it's got the break-away setup in the left shoulder strap. This allows your body to move inward and down which is beneficial in a roll-over without a roll-bar. The other great benefit to the setup is that it buckles into your existing factory restraint system with the addition of one attachment point on the left side of the lap belt portion. This means that I kept my OEM setup and use it on the street, to and from events and use the Scrotch when I auto-x or DE the car.

On the solid bushing/motor-mount issue, where you mentioned wanting to keep it street legal so you don't have to trailer it, the regular streets will pound the heck out of your car fairly quickly and you'll start having to do a lot more maintenance than if you run poly motor-mounts and bushings. The difference in performance isn't very much on R-Compounds in comparison to the difference in longevity of the suspension/chassis.

Regards, Alan

On the solid bushing/motor-mount issue, where you mentioned wanting to keep it street legal so you don't have to trailer it, the regular streets will pound the heck out of your car fairly quickly and you'll start having to do a lot more maintenance than if you run poly motor-mounts and bushings. The difference in performance isn't very much on R-Compounds in comparison to the difference in longevity of the suspension/chassis.

Regards, Alan
With respect to poly motor mounts, I respectfully disagree. Poly suspension bushings add ride harshness, of course (and shouldn't even be used in some locations due to induced bind), but motor mounts? I've been daily driving an M3 with Nylon and later Poly motor mounts with zero issues for almost a year/10K miles. The Nylon versions can cause a bit of a buzz at idle with the A/C on (which goes away above 1000 rpm), but poly motor mounts work perfectly.

With similarly stiff transmission mounts, these motor mounts are simply GOOD INSURANCE against a "money shift" situation, and radically improve shift feel. The high center of mass inline 6, along with a body mounted shifter and sloppy oem motor/trans mounts, makes for nasty shifter misalignment when cornering, on R compounds, and under power. Ask CABimmer how he likes his Nylon motor mounts (he's had them almost as long as we've been making them!). Thtottle response is also much improved.

I wouldn't DE an E36 with stock motor mounts unless I wanted blow a shift and kill the motor on purpose. :D

Terry, I think you misread my post, or perhaps I mis-worded it, and don't see it.

I'm suggesting that he consider not using solid bushings or solid motor mounts as =BA= had recommended.

I was trying to have the OP consider going to poly motor-mounts and bushings versus solid. I just installed your poly motor-mounts on my car (very nice pieces too). Just finished an engine transplant w/OBDII to OBDI conversion should have it running tomorrow night if all goes well.

Certainly, as you say there are some suspension areas that rubber is preferable to poly and some where poly shouldn't be used at all, but I was responding to only those places that solid bushings are an alternative. Solid bushings are very hard on a street driven car.
...On the solid bushing/motor-mount issue, where you mentioned wanting to keep it street legal so you don't have to trailer it, the regular streets will pound the heck out of your car fairly quickly and you'll start having to do a lot more maintenance than if you run poly motor-mounts and bushings. The difference in performance isn't very much on R-Compounds in comparison to the difference in longevity of the suspension/chassis...
Almost anywhere that a solid bushing can be used will see a lot less fatigue if a nylon, poly or Group N rubber bushing is used. I'd love to be running Group N bushings but they seem so damned expensive for BMWs. Perhaps it's the fact that the last Group N bushings I bought were almost 20 years ago and inflation has done it's evil work or just that I'm getting senile and remember them being less than they actually were but I'm sure I did my XR4Ti in 1989 completely over in Group N bushings for well less than they want now for just the E36 Group N motor mounts. :eyecrazy

Regards, Alan

Doh! I thought I recognized your name. Color me embarrassed! :D

Nothing to see here... move along. :devillook

I drive my car on the street occasioanlly. In the past, I drove it on the street more often. Even a 70mi r/t to work once in a while.

I have a full cage, Sparco EvoL seats and 6-point harnesses. I'm just under 6' tall. My seats are mounted as low as I can get them using VAC floor mounts.

Without a helmet on and strapped in I can move my head to the left, under the roll cage, with no contact. That is the closest tube to my head. It would take a lot of belt stretch for my head to get to that tube. To the rear and rear sides, contact would only be possible if the seat broke loose from it's mounts.

There's always a risk. In my case I believe it's minimal.

As far as being able to turn your head to make lane changes, etc., I have no problem. Trying to turn and look completely over my right shoulder to back up may not be possible. That's what mittors are for.

If you decide to have a cage installed, make sure you get someone who knows E36s and what they are doing. You want the cage to be tight up against the roof, A and B-pillars (farther from your melon).

Here are a couple of pics that show how close the tubes are to the roof, etc. And, how using only one side bar instead of the "x" allows for easier in/out. It is a compromise though.

My cage was done by Tony at TC Design. It's awesome and did it's job admirably in my rollover last year.

Jay




Separate comments on the cage. I am really wrestling with this. Some say go with a full cage, FIA approved padding, a race seat and 5 point (or more) on the street and there is little risk of head/bar contact that would be serious. Turning to look over your shoulder when passing could be a problem though.

Others say to NEVER drive a car with a full cage (regardless of everything else) on the street without a helmet (which is illegal).

All this is about managing and alloting risk to different activities (driving to/from track, driving on the track)--I have no problems with installing a full cage, I just don't want to be "safety stupid" on the street.

I welcome everyone's opinions (and especially any real data/hard facts) on this.

Terry, no need to be embarrassed. In trying to juggle several things at once I do the same darn thing at least once a month.

BTW, your engine mounts look so nice it's a shame they're virtually invisible when installed. Can't wait to put them to the test.
:drink1
Regards, Alan

jayhudson, I really like your door panels. Did you do that or TC when they built the cage?

jayhudson, I really like your door panels. Did you do that or TC when they built the cage?

Thanks for the kind words. Those are all my work.

Jay

Forced Induction and track cars goes together like peanut butter and broiled SPAM.

Don't fall into this trap. You'll get 20 internet racers telling you "its fine" but those guys usually do one DE a year and go home puking coolant, on a flatbed. ;)

If you want horsepower and reliability, the old adage "there's no replacement for displacement" is still the best, cheapest way to go. If you want "Z06" power, but want to stay with the awesome E36 chassis... hmm... what to do... :devillook

I definately need to disagree here. My turbo 325 has seen a few years worth of DE's, daily driving, autocrossing, etc...
C5 Z06 power isn't out of the question on the 2.5, and is easy on a 3.2.

Here's a slant....

Do yourself a favor, it took me a few years of goof ups to learn this the hard way, and build a car with a set of rules in mind. In other words, don't do anything to the car that can't be undone fairly easily to fit into a popular class. That would not include forced induction. Instead, build a car that can easily be converted to a BMWCCA club racing class, or NASA, or SCCA, and by and large there's no room for turbo or supercharging.

And plus one on the "add lightening". I went this route with a '92 E36, fitted a stock 2.8 and spanked 95% of the M3s out there for two years before selling it and building a SpecE36 last winter. It sold in 3 days for virtually 100% of asking price because it fit exactly into the popular CCA class, JP. If it still had the supercharged 1.8 litre in it, it'd still be for sale. A local guy here in the NE has been trying to sell an E30 with an M5 motor for two years now...nothing, I don't think he's had a single offer.

The two rules I've learned to live by, if at all possible, are:

1. if possible buy a "built" car, as you'll get at least a 50% discount...the most you'll ever get on anything

2. it's not any harder to build a car with a rule book close by and thereby enhance resale and liquidity at the same time

You're an instructor, as I am, so lots of folks see the car perform, and if it's legal for a popular class and they see you driving the car well, it's a known entity and you'll be able to sell it fast for top dollar.

Good luck!

phredden: I think that is sage advice. I can still imagine putting whatever shocks, springs, wheels, etc. I want--as those are easy change items. But using caution with a cage, removal/cutting of metal, etc. makes sense.

I'll admit in advance that I have not researched the following very much, and my thoughts are formed via casual conversations only. I have been told that there are not many good racing series for E36 M3's in the Pacific Northwest. If that is true, I don't have much in the way of local references.

So, could anyone provide copies of popular sanctioning body rules, or point my to the source where those are purchased? And if a source is something general such as the SCCA, would you please give me some idea of the specific class or classes that I should consider? I read many "class" abbreviations when trolling through this forum, but I have no idea what they mean.

Thanks.

The "buying it already done" point is not at all lost on me. The issue for a car that must occasionally be street driven is that I have only two options. (This is my best extraction of all that I have read.)

One is a car with a 4 point rear cage with a harness bar + fixed back track seat (or perhaps the Recaro recliner). On the street, use the stock 3 point belt, and on the track use a multi-point harness + head and neck restraint. Gotta be sure that the track seat doesn't interfere too much with the fitment of the stock belt.

Second option is a full cage car, FIA padding everywhere + fixed back track seat. Still need the stock 3 point belt and appropriate seat for the street. Add wearing some time of an open face or bicycle helmet for some increased tube contact issues (and being able to deal with extreme ridicule). Track includes everything above.

Variation is to have certain elements of the front cage be bolt in.

The issue is finding a car that meets that, as many on this forum seem to take calculated risks with their street setups (I'm not saying it is wrong, but my wife is looking too closely over my shoulder at what I'm doing, and as a HPDE driver herself, she has a clue.)

Scotty,

You're near PIR? Why not go check out the Pro3 series this weekend at PIR and talk to some of the racers there. I am thinking of doing the specE30 as well. You can buy a full prepped one for less than a e36. Race the crap out of it. In case you swapped paint with another car during the race, it can be fix for less. Go check it out.

I am interested in this thread as I am also considering adding some "safety" to my e36 street/track car (for possible time trials, etc) but still want to feel OK driving it to work or road trip without wearing a helmet!

It seems like safety and street use are really in a tug of war. If I were going dedicated track-only with the prep, I would probably opt for something else but don't want to give up my e36 either, lol!

So either bolt-in bar or full cage, neither are good for casual street driving w/o helmet, right? Anybody have references on this or is it just intarweb lore?

I am interested in this thread as I am also considering adding some "safety" to my e36 street/track car (for possible time trials, etc) but still want to feel OK driving it to work or road trip without wearing a helmet!

It seems like safety and street use are really in a tug of war. If I were going dedicated track-only with the prep, I would probably opt for something else but don't want to give up my e36 either, lol!

So either bolt-in bar or full cage, neither are good for casual street driving w/o helmet, right? Anybody have references on this or is it just intarweb lore?

I disagree completely about "street cages". If the cage is properly designed it will do nothing but add safety. If you come out of the seat enough to hit a cage member you're also hitting the roof, side window, passenger side door, steering wheel, etc etc. The fact that you can pad the tube makes it even better.

Now if you design a cage so the top bar is right behind your head or the diagonal is next to your left temple, that's another story.

Don

unless my seat mounts break it is not possible for me to hit my bar. I sit far enough forward that my head is about a foot from the bar. I also have fixed seats and always wear my 5 points

I disagree completely about "street cages". If the cage is properly designed it will do nothing but add safety. If you come out of the seat enough to hit a cage member you're also hitting the roof, side window, passenger side door, steering wheel, etc etc. The fact that you can pad the tube makes it even better.

Now if you design a cage so the top bar is right behind your head or the diagonal is next to your left temple, that's another story.

Don

So, trying to paraphrase/simplify your statement: a cage or roll bar are OK for street without wearing a helmet to work? I think that is what you are saying, just trying to clarify so I do not misinterpret.

....Others say to NEVER drive a car with a full cage (regardless of everything else) on the street without a helmet (which is illegal).....



Not to mention dorky as hell:D:D:D

Go for the roll bar so you can get proper harness mounting points and call it a day.


Get a traqmate. After a while, getting real data is the only way you are going to know what you are doing and what you can improve.

So, trying to paraphrase/simplify your statement: a cage or roll bar are OK for street without wearing a helmet to work? I think that is what you are saying, just trying to clarify so I do not misinterpret.
I agree, given a properly-built cage, proper padding, and an appropriate seating position. Next time you're at the track, sit in a few caged cars and see how you fit. I don't worry about mine at all, though I do limit the street driving--more because it's just not a comfortable car on the street (6-pts are a PITA when you have to jump out and get gas. And people look at you funny when you pop your QR wheel off and climb over door bars to fill up :)).
-tammer

I'm sure you can get a nice roll cage that you don't really have to worry about knocking your head on, but I think a bar might be the right way to go for you. Having a roll cage in a DD is not anything to mess around with. Your definitely going to need to spend some serious money getting someone to fabricate one for you. I am absolutely NOT SAYING that this isn't money well spent, but if you want to be realistic about comfortably driving this car on the street, keeping the car safe for dd use, and not blowing too much of your budget on custom fab, etc I would just spend the 600 or so on an autopower bar (or a similar bar, don't know what bmw people use) with a harness bar and cross tube. You will never have to worry about the safety issue on the street and it will leave you plenty of room to leave your stock belts in. Sure its not as safe as many full roll cages, but it provides a hell of a lot more roll over protection, god forbid you ever need it.

One of my best friends recently did it on his 05 STi for a g and some change. Plus they aren't too much of a headache to install yourself.

That included harnesses and 2 sparco evo seats, which is a pretty damn good deal IMO.

So, trying to paraphrase/simplify your statement: a cage or roll bar are OK for street without wearing a helmet to work? I think that is what you are saying, just trying to clarify so I do not misinterpret.

Exactly..provided they are installed/designed properly and include padding. Sure, there is more of a chance of your head contacting a tube in case of an accident. There is also more of a chance of the damn cage saving your life too!! I mean I'm talking percentages here. Example. You don't build a cage because you drive the car on the street and folks said "street cars shouldn't have cages". You have an accident at a DE and roll the car....now you have no protection.

Helmet or no helmet, 5-6pt or not, overall, I'll take a properly designed cage system over no cage on the street/track any day.

Don

Get a traqmate. After a while, getting real data is the only way you are going to know what you are doing and what you can improve.

LOL, you should try searching this section for posts by me including the word "traqmate".

Not saying my write-ups are all that great, but I havent seen many other that rival them. :)