Im looking to put in a dog box in my car but dont know where to turn too. Im looking to transform my car into a race car by gutting, looking for place for custom full cage ect. but im trying to find place for dog box. thanks

is there a specific reason you want it?

alot of the club racers are running stock tranny's.


but, here's a link for Bimmerworld's ZF race tranny

http://www.bimmerworld.com/html/zf-5-speed-race-prepared-transmission.htm

how much money do you have to spend on a gear box

http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/

what series/class are you building for? is that gearbox legal for that series/class?

For your M roadster?

http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/

Do they make them for BMW applications?

Mike

Do they make them for BMW applications?

Race boxes usually require some fab work...in most cases, they don't just bolt right up in the same way as the stock box.

Do they make them for BMW applications?

Mike
they will make pretty much anything, I had some blower pullies and quick change diff gearsets made by them 20 years ago, since branched out into specialty gearboxes, there are at least 2 other companies I can think of here that will also make them
http://www.albinsgear.com.au/
http://www.holinger.com.au/

Not sure why you would want a dog box, as stated by others, most club and pro racers seem to stick with a prod gearbox.
Anyway, I am not sure who, if anyone offers a box for BMW's, but I have experience with Jerico, Weisman and Hewland, all in Trans-Am/GT1 cars, there are lots out there, but it will be a lot of fab work to get one to work.
Try some of the NASCAR used parts shops, they have warehouses full of stuff, rows of gearboxes..
My Jerico is an ex cup box.

Not sure why you would want a dog box, as stated by others, most club and pro racers seem to stick with a prod gearbox.

Keep in mind that rules are the biggest reason for Pro teams not going to a dog box. When and if allowed, Pro teams are going to use a proper race transmission. At the club level, it's a question of both rules and budget. In BMW club racing, unless the box has a BMW Part # on the side, you are straight into Super Mod class.

Race boxes usually require some fab work...in most cases, they don't just bolt right up in the same way as the stock box.

Unless, of course you can get the guts that go in a stock box...or have a Grp A or DTM box;)

Mike

Keep in mind that rules are the biggest reason for Pro teams not going to a dog box. When and if allowed, Pro teams are going to use a proper race transmission. At the club level, it's a question of both rules and budget. In BMW club racing, unless the box has a BMW Part # on the side, you are straight into Super Mod class.

Yeah, this is true.
He should be able to source something from Europe, still, its alot of work and a massive expense.

IIRC the Euro E30 M3 came with one at one point. It would have a BMW P/N on it...

Fall-Line has recently come up with a way to do sequential race boxes for S52 and S54s and have several in their shop right now. They have done several E46s and an E36...and say what you want about the value of this for club racers, but man are they nice.

IIRC the Euro E30 M3 came with one at one point. It would have a BMW P/N on it...

Dog leg pattern is different than a dog engagement type racing transmission. I'm fairly sure no E30 ever came with one euro or not. :-)

If you can blow what most racer's yearly budget is on a transmission I'm thinking it's probably not the wisest mod.

Carlos.

Fall-Line has recently come up with a way to do sequential race boxes for S52 and S54s and have several in their shop right now. They have done several E46s and an E36...and say what you want about the value of this for club racers, but man are they nice.

True sequentials or just H-pattern dog boxes? Where are these cars running? I haven't seen any in club racing thus far.

True sequential transmissions.

One is an M5 V8 powered GAC spec E46 M3 that will be seen at the mid-ohio race in a few weeks (watch out!). The other is an E36 M3 that is primarily just for open track days, but you will be seeing in a few CCA races later this year. (both in SM obviously)

X-Trac boxes by the way...

One is an M5 V8 powered GAC spec E46 M3 that will be seen at the mid-ohio race in a few weeks (watch out!).

Grand-Am Rolex? :)

Sounds cool. Hope to run into them at a race or two this year.

Grand-Am Rolex? :)

Sounds cool. Hope to run into them at a race or two this year.

The V8 powered car is based on the same setup we use for GAC cup cars and then all of the custom fab related work for the V8 was done in house.
There is way more to be done for it to be Rolex... Built soley for club racing and open track events.

I think that they will be making more and more appearances... The V8 car is sick, but the E36 is the nicest I think I have ever seen, so hopefully it gets out there more.

BTW: I will be at the mid ohio race, crewing for the fall-line GAC cars and the V8 car. Please do stop by and check it out.

True sequential transmissions.

One is an M5 V8 powered GAC spec E46 M3 that will be seen at the mid-ohio race in a few weeks (watch out!). The other is an E36 M3 that is primarily just for open track days, but you will be seeing in a few CCA races later this year. (both in SM obviously)

I think he means the club race... I saw a super mod signed up for that event. My chance at reclaiming my overall there is dwindling:(

I think he means the club race... I saw a super mod signed up for that event. My chance at reclaiming my overall there is dwindling:(

Faster cars are signed up for this event than there were for June.

Vince has a fast enough car to take the overall I think but he has to pedal it to at least 1:37.XX to do so. :-) I haven't seen or heard of the SM car or driver but if he can run faster than that then he'll be taking the overall wins.

Tillinghast I'm guessing is running at his GTS3 weight (?) and therefore is classified in CM. Berkowitz stepped up his car so he may be back there (not far back) ready to pounce if one of the CMod boyz faulters. heh, heh.

Should be an interesting weekend, I hope to be there for Saturday at least. If anyone needs a hand let me know.

Carlos.

http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=215724&highlight=1

That was the first time the SM car saw the track, and its only race.... 1:32.6... that was a few hundred development hours, 100hp, and a sequential trans ago...

http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=215724&highlight=1

That was the first time the SM car saw the track, and its only race.... 1:32.6... that was a few hundred development hours, 100hp, and a sequential trans ago...

Yup I remember that, he gave everyone a thorough spanking. Is Mark driving it again? Can Gary match Mark's lap times? If so then he'll have some easy wins.

Carlos.

Unless, of course you can get the guts that go in a stock box...or have a Grp A or DTM box;)

Not legal. Mod rules require an OEM box and OEM ratios else SM. A dog gearset with stock ratios would not be worth the expense IMHO.

Not legal. Mod rules require an OEM box and OEM ratios else SM. A dog gearset with stock ratios would not be worth the expense IMHO.

No worries, my comment has nothing to do about legality in any race series, merely whether it can be done or not and the level of difficulty such a process might present. I have no dog in that hunt.

Mike

http://mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=215724&highlight=1

That was the first time the SM car saw the track, and its only race.... 1:32.6... that was a few hundred development hours, 100hp, and a sequential trans ago...

crapola:eek: Hope my new tweaked powerplant has some pixy dust in it... Dyno runs saturday.:devillook
Back OT, Clay's boxes are tighter ratio, straight replacements. Close to $6000 IIRC.

Try Metric Mechanics

im looking for something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSJ-HzNWJGM
maybe its called a sequential transmission with straight cut gears. but my friend with a evo 5 has a dogbox in his car and it is the funnest thing around. Im trying to build my car some scca race i guess. im not sure where to start. Im actually pretty new to the scene. I've been to Watkins Glen and done some laps there but i want to start tracking. Anyone know where to start? thanks.

Where to start? Seat time. Tranny is definitely NOT the place to start. After seat time, sit down with a rule book.

I have not seen many (actually anyone) run a sequential trans successfuly in BMWCCA without needing a rebuild after either; 1. one weekend, or 2. Blew up first time out because they had no idea on how to drive it.

Unless you are a semipro/pro driver you will not benefit from the sequential gearboxes, especially if you don't have an engineer with you deciding what gears to run for each track. You also will need someone to do a remove/rebuild/reinstall basically every other weekend (or every weekend dependng on how you drove). Major reasons the pro's use them is for gear choice, and the ability to quickly swap out gears at the track.

For your Z3 to get a sequential gearbox setup, you are looking at $15000 minimum, and thats assuming you do the work yourself. And if you want a good transmission, setup properly, you are talking $25k+, easy.

Most people who are competitive in Mod Club racing know what it takes to win, and it definitely has much more (read that as ALL) to do with driver and setup than having 600hp and a sequential gearbox.

Evo/Sti's have straight cut gear kits, as do almost all Vw's. Most come from Rally cars where the transmissions and drivetrains have lots of R&D (aka funding) behind them. So companies produce kits for factory supported rally race teams which then street guys get a hold of and think they have racecars.

I think the name of the company was Zero shift who designed a universal internal mechanism that converted standard synchro gearboxes (i believe they started with vettes) and converted them into seamless "zero delay" gearboxes. Not sure on how they are doing though, I have not heard or seen much about them recently.

Insane cost indeed. But they say a true sequential is good for a 1.5-2 sec of your laptime though on the average track in the EU.

Oh, it definitely is faster...but thats assuming the person shifting it knows what the hell they are doing :)

I've seen substantially more people get slower laptimes from trying to use sequentials b/c they missed many shifts, and were not using it to its full potential.

Its just like any other component on the car, it has to be implemented and used properly.

Most here use Drenth. They are fairly cheap but seem a little prone to failure as well, compared to say Xtrac or Hewland. They do however have a complete E36 M3 package but the import cost probably kills you.

From what I know these guys clutch while the transmission oil is still cold. After that they just keep their foot down on upshifts. They just declutch on downshifts to save up on gearbox lifetime a bit.

I've heard from some ALMS guys that many are now not clutching at all. The software cuts ign (and/or fuel) the instant the selector is hit, and they can flatfoot upshift. Downshifts could technically also have 'blips" done automatically, but I think its mostly done manually.

I think the biggest factor still is the driver, although I have read some premature failure with Drenth's in particular. Xtrac seems to have some pretty solid setup now, as well as Hewland, and Hollinger is pretty good too.

There are similar provisions taken to make a H pattern straight cut box have the ability to flat upshift.

With straight cut sequentially selected gearboxes, like on Motorcycles/shifter karts, it only requires a simple throttle lift to change gears smoothly...or you can have a simple ign and/or fuel cut with an air/pneumatic powered shifter. My old Fsae team made one for 2007, and its pretty amazing. The shifts are ungodly fast.

Oh, and forgot to mention one of the big guns, Ricardo.

I gave a half hearted attempt investigating a sequential box for my car. Steve's $$ amounts are correct for a US car, just in assembly and trans upkeep. He didn't even factor in the additional support necessary at trackside. I don't think anyone on the current BMW club circuit can remotely justify that expense, even for bling factor. As a mediocore driver, I certainly felt the money would be best spent in more track events and less repair time.
OT: Steve, are you getting any closer to being done?
Bryan, are you going to Mt Tremblant?

$15K is definete overestimate. VAC Motorsports sells Quaife sequential and dog-engaged transmissions ranging in price from 4.5K to $6k. Naturally there's considerable additional fab work needed. There's an abundance of other choices.. EMCO, Hollinger, X-Trac, Jerico, Hewland (bring your gold bars).

For reference on the "cheap" Drenth unit, for parts alone are about $14000 USD, plus taxes, export/shipping, modification, install, spares, you are looking at 425k for the supposed "cheap" BMW off the shelf package. Also for reference, the Drenth "BMW" spec unit can only handle ~325 ftlbs of torque on the higher end of its allowable range...so if you have a powerful motor or a very basic forced induction setup, this gearbox will break.

Quiafe has great differentials, not a huge fan of their race boxes. Btw its $6k for the Trans alone, now add on spares, adapter plate, custom installation, provisions for proper sequential shifting, clutch assembly, etc etc etc you get to 20k pretty quick :) And thats not even including rebuilds.

Greg, I won't be done until 08 season, I have to spend time doing other stuff right now, plus the cars new "homes" are not finished yet :)
(Parts are piling up though, i figure if I can't physically build it, I might as well collect every part needed in the mean time)

Since I am designing many (well most) of the parts on the car myself and custom fabricating everything, its giving me time to get more refined designs. For example the aero. I took a couple months to research wing profiles and designs, and finally came to a final design that while it will not cost any more to produce, it should offer me a better part/design.

Since this is a Trans thread, all I am doing, and all thats really needed is a 5.5 or 7.25 clutch, some good fluid, and a good operator. And for the Supermod guys, you can go the extra step and go with a carbon one piece driveshaft.

The hording of parts is never a bad thing...
Research done by people of knowledge in the industry pointed to only 2 manufactures and both exceeded $15K. Rebuilds are scheduled every 4 events for a complete overhaul assuming the operator made no mistakes during practice or competion. Add in your trackside support per event, ecu for throttle control if not already on the car and data aq and the learning curve to get acclimated and one season is $40k is a hurry.
Real sequential boxes are not for the faint of wallet.

Yea, hoarding parts is fun, until they start popping up in every room of the house lol

Recently someone ran a Hollinger in an E36 in BMWCCA (used, ~$10k prob) and they had some problems with it initially, I have not heard how its been working since. Prices go up quick, especially when you have to pay a shop to remove, rebuild frequently.

Its not often a SM beats a well setup Cm/Dm/Bm car, and if you add in the sequential trans factor to the situation, I doubt you'll see the Sm taking an overall win. All the money can be thrown at it, but you need talent/skill to maintain and keep it operating properly.

Going back to the Fall Line customers though, does anyone here know of them (car/owner) personally, and how their Xtracs have been working for their de applications?

I have a few getrag 250 dogboxes available. Just serviced and have BMW part numbers. 2:03 first and 1:1 5th.

I have 3 left, and I can get parts and provide future service for them.

PM if you are seriously interested.

Should add that these are not DOGLEG, but ratio close ratio boxes with straight cut gears. They have some other stuff done to them to help improve driveline loss also

According to Motorsport pricelist, the 5speed from the WTCC e46/e90's are $7600BVP, while the 6spd Xtrax sequential is $18000BVP!

I think I'm going to have to stick with my oem 6spd lol

You guys are throwing around the term "true sequential".

Care to define that?

Sequential meaning you push a lever forward or backward to select a gear, as opposed to moving a stickshift in an "H" pattern to manually select a specific gear.

You are moving a lever "sequentially" in the gearbox selecting gears. You have to go though 2-3-4 to get to 5, sequentially.

On more advanced systems, like Ferrari's sequentials, its computer controller but manually operated, so you can shift fast and say downshift two gears, however its still going sequentially, its just going really really fast, and at the same time properly matching the rpm...its one of the best sounds ever!

Sequential meaning you push a lever forward or backward to select a gear, as opposed to moving a stickshift in an "H" pattern to manually select a specific gear.

You are moving a lever "sequentially" in the gearbox selecting gears. You have to go though 2-3-4 to get to 5, sequentially.

On more advanced systems, like Ferrari's sequentials, its computer controller but manually operated, so you can shift fast and say downshift two gears, however its still going sequentially, its just going really really fast, and at the same time properly matching the rpm...its one of the best sounds ever!

Kenny in the FI section has holinger sequential in his M coupe, bump stick right to shift up, left to shift down

Sequential meaning you push a lever forward or backward to select a gear, as opposed to moving a stickshift in an "H" pattern to manually select a specific gear.

You are moving a lever "sequentially" in the gearbox selecting gears. You have to go though 2-3-4 to get to 5, sequentially.

On more advanced systems, like Ferrari's sequentials, its computer controller but manually operated, so you can shift fast and say downshift two gears, however its still going sequentially, its just going really really fast, and at the same time properly matching the rpm...its one of the best sounds ever!

Okay, I gotcha.

I've heard that term used before, but people were associating a sequential gearbox with heel-toeless downshifting.

Just so everyone is on the same page:


The term "dog box" refers to the manner in which the gears are engaged. The "dogs" are essentially big tabs positioned where a synchronizer setup would normally be located. Typically, there are between 4 and 6 dogs per gearset (two gears, ie 3rd & 4th, etc). Dog engagement is very crude and loud, and creates a lot of drivetrain slop.

Shifting one of these puppies (heh-heh, dog box...puppies...) is awesome, since there's no "snick-snick" between gears. Just pull the shifter and it slides from one gear to another. It's very fast and effective. Upshifts just require a just a slight lift off the throttle, to remove the load from the drivetrain. No clutch required. If you've got the experience and you're comfortable with the car, you can skip the clutch on downshifts too. Double-clutch downshifting helps preserve the dogs and rings, but it's not necessary.


A "sequential" transmission or transaxle (as Steve J discussed) simply refers to the manner in which the gears are selected by the driver.

A standard (mechanical) sequential transmission operates in the same manner as a regular H-pattern gearbox, only a lever and drum assembly is incorporated within the transmission to select and deselect gears while the driver "bumps" the lever up or down. The majority of motorcycle transmissions operate in this manner, and technically speaking, are "sequential". Most all sequential transmissions use dog engagement.

Adding electronics to a mechanical sequential dog box can do many things, such as retarding/killing ignition between shifts, rev-matching for downshifts, etc. Some even have hydraulic actuators to take the force out of shifting, and/or allow for steering column-mounted paddle shifting. This is what most people think of when they hear the term "sequential".


The term "straight cut" refers to the manner in which the gears in the transmission mesh. Most racing transmissions/transaxles use straight cut gears. Straight cut gears reduce friction, and remove thrust loads from the transmission. They also make a hell of a lot of noise! As an example, when you put your M/T street car in reverse, and use liberal throttle, you'll hear the whine of a straight-cut gear. A straight cut racing transmission/transaxle makes that same noise in all gears!

Straight cut gears are associated with dog boxes, but helical cut gears are also used in some cases.

Yeah more like that. The hydraulic actuated types can be seen a lot on the GT3's as their gearbox is located on the rear axle.

By the way flat footing during shifts can also be achieved with a OEM box. My previous car had a racelogic system fitted with a clutch switch, that automaticly cuts revs when you engage the clutch. Not as fast as sequential but it saves a tiny bit of time especially coupled up with a short shifter. Would not be where I would spent my money but it was already on the car so why not use it :) Dragracers use this system more often I believe.

The term "dog box" refers to the manner in which the gears are engaged. The "dogs" are essentially big tabs positioned where a synchronizer setup would normally be located. Typically, there are between 4 and 6 dogs per gearset (two gears, ie 3rd & 4th, etc). Dog engagement is very crude and loud, and creates a lot of drivetrain slop.

Shifting one of these puppies (heh-heh, dog box...puppies...) is awesome, since there's no "snick-snick" between gears. Just pull the shifter and it slides from one gear to another. It's very fast and effective. Upshifts just require a light lift off the throttle, to remove the load from the drivetrain. Double-clutch downshifting is best to preserve the dogs and rings, but it's not necessary.







While dog engagement is loud, it does not create extra driveline slop, not sure how it would do that, once it engages, it is engaged.

Also, I have no idea how you would double clutch a sequential shift gearbox, the whole point of the thing is to NOT have to do shit like that.
My Jerico just went through 5 seasons without a rebuild, it was inspected every year, just this year we decided to do it, and it wasn't absolutely needed.
I haven't used the clutch on an upshift in those 5 years, and often I don't bother on downshifts either. I find dog boxes work much better the faster and more aggressive you are with the shifter.

Is the Jerico in a non-BMW race car (photo)?

How is Jerico to deal with re: support, custom gear ratios, etc?

Thanks,
Mike

Is the Jerico in a non-BMW race car (photo)?

How is Jerico to deal with re: support, custom gear ratios, etc?

Thanks,
Mike

They are exellent to deal with, and anything you want is available.
The Jerico is in a GT1 Corvette, yes.

Yep, faster/harder shifts are better, timing is everything.

And the other trick some guys use instead of having the fancy cut systems,is to let the engine hit the rev limiter, and the cut from that was enough time to get an upshift in, so they can do a nolift shift.

Find some footage of Greg Murphy (Australian V8 Super cars) crunching through a H-pattern Hollinger.
Up & down shifting, no clutch, left foot braking, impressive footwork!!!

here's the foot work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azpqTZ6WeJk

and here's just, wow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juayGkTKYEo

Not quite the Greg Murphy vid..
But here is a short clip of me rowing around our Jerico last season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sux7jOz1otM

Yep, faster/harder shifts are better, timing is everything.

And the other trick some guys use instead of having the fancy cut systems,is to let the engine hit the rev limiter, and the cut from that was enough time to get an upshift in, so they can do a nolift shift.

When I did Bondurant years ago the Formula car gear boxes did not require declutching for up or downshifting. Tight ratios made shifting a breeze, damn fun too. I don't recall if I lifted on the upshift or not. I'm sure I did a little at least, probably not all the way off though, the gears just snicked right togther like butta.

I don't recall if I lifted on the upshift or not. I'm sure I did a little at least, probably not all the way off though, the gears just snicked right togther like butta.

It's not really a "lift" so much as a breath off the throttle...just enough to release the tension on the driveline.

The term "dog box" refers to the manner in which the gears are engaged. The "dogs" are essentially big tabs positioned where a synchronizer setup would normally be located. Typically, there are between 4 and 6 dogs per gearset (two gears, ie 3rd & 4th, etc). Dog engagement is very crude and loud, and creates a lot of drivetrain slop.


Regular street gearboxes use dogs, too. That's what's grinding when I miss a shift. :stickoutt As I understand it, there are fewer and bigger dogs in a racing "dog-box" vs. a street box and, as you mentioned, no synchros.

Every street car has a straight cut gear...reverse :) If you want to be cool and have your car make the loud whine, just drive around on the limiter in reverse lol

here is oneI foudn from another '02 messageboard.

It's an SCCA GT3 2002 race car.....

Not sure what the bellhousing was from.....basically just sliced it of another car (non-bmw) and then attached via a plate from VAC I think.......

This is a Quaife unit.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h67/StealthAuto/quaifetranny3.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h67/StealthAuto/quaifetranny.jpg

While dog engagement is loud, it does not create extra driveline slop, not sure how it would do that, once it engages, it is engaged.

The nature of a dog-engagement gearbox doesn't allow for precise coupling.
Here's an example:

(w w w.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0406mm_gforce_28_z.jpg)

(I can't post links & pictures....maybe a moderator can do this for me? Copy and paste into your browser, and remove the spaces from between the w's)

Note the gap between the engaged dogs. That gap is what creates driveline slop.


Also, I have no idea how you would double clutch a sequential shift gearbox, the whole point of the thing is to NOT have to do shit like that.

Precisely! I donkey-donged that one. When I wrote my original post, I accidentally edited an earlier paragraph, without paying attention to the reference "and require the driving habits discussed above". I edited my original post for clarity.

The nature of a dog-engagement gearbox doesn't allow for precise coupling.
Here's an example:

(w w w.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/0406mm_gforce_28_z.jpg)

(I can't post links & pictures....maybe a moderator can do this for me? Copy and paste into your browser, and remove the spaces from between the w's)

Note the gap between the engaged dogs. That gap is what creates driveline slop.





Yes, there is lots of room between dogs, makes it easier for them to engage each other, but once they are engaged, the gear also becomes engaged with the other gear, so the actual dogs are out of the loop. My Jerico has no slop at all, at anytime.

Yes, there is lots of room between dogs, makes it easier for them to engage each other, but once they are engaged, the gear also becomes engaged with the other gear, so the actual dogs are out of the loop. My Jerico has no slop at all, at anytime.

Pmachan, do we have possibly have different definitions of "driveline slop"?

I'm wonderin'.....

1. Place the transmission on bench.
2. Put the transmission in a forward gear.
3. Hold the input shaft with one hand, and the output shaft/drive flange with the other.
4. While holding the input shaft steady, twist the output shaft/drive flange in one direction until twisting force is felt from the input shaft.
5. Slowly twist the output shaft/drive flange in the opposite direction, until twisting force if felt from the input shaft. The distance (in degrees, approximate) the output shaft can be turned before moving the input shaft is "slop".

If your Jerico box has some other sort of dog engagement than the norm, I would love to know more about it. What model is it? Any pics?

I think you may be confusing what the dog teeth on the end of the gear do.
The do not have any role in transmitting drive force to the output shaft, they simply are a nasty, beefy way of sync'ing the gears together.
The gears themselves mesh together to provide the drive

http://www.jericoperformance.com/10.html

This is the gearbox we use.

Nope, not confused. That's a regular ol' constant mesh dog box.

Nope, not confused. That's a regular ol' constant mesh dog box.

Please explain, one of us is confused, you say it isn't you, so it must be me.

EDIT

I read up some more, on the exact way it works, you are correct.
However, the amount of "slop" is insignificant, from my point of view as the driver anyway. Going on 6 years running this type of tranny, its never something I have ever noticed or been made aware of.