I was told this by two dealers over the past two days and that neither had any manuals of sedan or coupe in stock because they're much harder for them to sell. I know your average Joe Schmoe probably wants an auto, but less than 1 in 20 buyers wants a manual on a twin-turbo car? That boggles my mind.

That is fairly consistent with what I have heard from my local dealer.

Have you driven the steptronic?

I was only able to test-drive the auto because there were no manuals available....the paddle-shifting was pretty lame I thought, having driven a manual for the past 3 years. The car was obviously very fast, but IMO you just can't beat the driving experience of a manual on a quick car.

How exactly does everyone think this would affect resale down the line? Higher resale because they're so hard to find, or lower because nobody wants them?

That's a crap argument. They don't sell them because they don't have them. people buy what is there. I noticed a lot of 6MTs on here, looks like they were ordered.

How can they sell something they don't have...so they tell you people don't like them, but yet when the have one they sell quick or they try to mark it up because they say its "in demand".

They also tried to sell me on the idea that if I ordered a manual and later cancelled for whatever reason, the deposit would be non-refundable because it would be "hard to sell", but that if I ordered an auto it would be 100% refundable. Seems like BS to me, I just find it hard to believe that so few people are looking for manuals.

Reminds me of what Ford did with the Taurus SHO. Hot rod to the max, V8, manual trans (but driving the wrong wheels, natch). The manual clutch and shifter was reviewed as being horrid. When asked about the lack of manual trans options on later models, some Ford marketing moron said that the demand was so low, they couldn't justify the cost of development and emissions certification.

There were no manuals because Ford was lazy, as are the dealers described here. I will never buy an autostepfakemanualtronic anything on a sports (or even a sporty) car. Save the autos for trucks.

-Dave

I have a 335i with the Paddle shifters..personally i love it, theres not that much difference from the manual to the auto IMO...I also have a e90 330i. Its an auto also...I dont really miss the manual gearbox

Drove my father's co-worker's 2007 Corvette with paddle shifters, and like anyone could imagine, it just isn't as fun as a manual, but i had to say, that corvette had a smoother ride than my 325i w/ sport pkg... (corvette with an auto? FTW)

I was only able to test-drive the auto because there were no manuals available....the paddle-shifting was pretty lame I thought, having driven a manual for the past 3 years. The car was obviously very fast, but IMO you just can't beat the driving experience of a manual on a quick car.

How exactly does everyone think this would affect resale down the line? Higher resale because they're so hard to find, or lower because nobody wants them?

There's a vid of a guy doing 4.8 seconds 0-60 with an automatic in sport mode. If a manual is better we need to see a sub 4.8 sec video. I personally think tech has come a long way such that the gap between a manual and an auto is very very small in terms of MPG and efficiency. I am one of the 95% btw.

There were no manuals because Ford was lazy, as are the dealers described here. I will never buy an autostepfakemanualtronic anything on a sports (or even a sporty) car. Save the autos for trucks.



But then again, you own a Mustang.

There's a vid of a guy doing 4.8 seconds 0-60 with an automatic in sport mode. If a manual is better we need to see a sub 4.8 sec video. I personally think tech has come a long way such that the gap between a manual and an auto is very very small in terms of MPG and efficiency. I am one of the 95% btw.


Already been there..... the manual nuts are worse than the religous nuts.... don't give them your address or anything.

That's a crap argument. They don't sell them because they don't have them. people buy what is there. I noticed a lot of 6MTs on here, looks like they were ordered.



Keep in mind that this is a rather self-selecting forum regarding number of manuals....

And as you guys continue to age and your demographic becomes more irrelevant, manuals will continue to decline in sales. Strictly from a performance standpoint, manuals are quickly becoming relics they roll out just for the old dinosaurs out there set in their ways. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the trend.

Maybe they don't have any manuals on their lots because they've all been bought. I doubt that's the case, but it could be an argument. A week ago our dealer here had 3 identical black 335i sedans - 1 manual and 2 automatics w/ paddles. I went by yesterday and now they have 0 manuals and 2 automatics, and they tried to convince me that the paddle shifting was just as good as a 6MT. If it had SMG, I would agree, but it doesn't. That's why I ordered a 6MT. And yes, they are scarce around the country. They could only find about 5. Even though I've already ordered mine, they tried to convince me to let them have one shipped in, so I wouldn't have to wait any longer. When I declined they told me they were going to bring it in anyway, because they wanted to have a manual on their lot for sale. That tells me they see a demand for them.

My personal feeling is that traffic patterns have a lot to do with it as well. I know a lot of guys that have gone w/ automatics because they say they sit in traffic and the manual becomes more work than it's worth. Which is a good point. I don't have that problem, and I feel the best way to be really involved in driving is to have 100% control of what gear your car's in. As for resale, I doubt that having a 300hp car with a manual will be that much of a drawback. Especially when you consider who will be trying to buy these things with all the aftermarket goodies that will be available. To me this car appels to the performance minded buyer, who will at least find a manual acceptable, if not preferable. If you're in the used car market and you aren't performance oriented, 328's will be found at a much better price.

As for 0-60 times, I seriously doubt an automatic is quicker than a manual, just based on the launch alone, plus you only shift once (at 42mph) before you hit 60. To be quick in a manual, you need to have some skill in using the thing. Put them both on a track and I'll take the manual anyday. All factory and test figures show that a manual is quicker.

It all comes down to preference and driving style. For me personally, I'll take a clutch anyday. Oh yeah AEarlM, you can count me in on the religious side as well.

theres not that much difference from the manual to the auto IMO...

You mean OTHER than actually shifting the car? Sorry, but a man-u-matic will never give you the same connected-to-the-car feeling as a true manual.

And as you guys continue to age and your demographic becomes more irrelevant, manuals will continue to decline in sales.

Hmmm...well being under 35 and with a THI over six figures I don't think the manufacturer would consider my demographic irrelevant. In fact I think I am just who they are targeting the 3 series at. All that being said, you'll have to pry my clutch outta my cold dead fingers. Sorry, as I said above, you can't match the feeling of a clutch. Automatics may get FASTER than them and I will STILL choose a manual. It's not always about 0-60 kiddo.

I've driven the automatic ... and the new automatic transmissions are world improved over previous version. They are no longer as bad as they used to be. That being said, there will always be some die hard enthusiasts who refuse to listen to reason and will never give it a fair chance.

I put a couple hundred miles on a 335 vert with an automatic transmission and I'll say that I was very impressed.

For me the manual will be the way to go until they can develope an auto that gives you the same control over as a manual does. The revs through corners, the double cluching for balancing the car on corner exits, the launch capabilities. For me, very early 30's with a future of sports cars ahead, I agree with aftp302, BMW delivers the manual for people like us, if they did not have the manual I would not have bought the car.

The new automatic transmissions give you all of that... well, except for the launching capabilities you are probably looking for. I'm curious what the acceleration numbers 0-100 are like for the manual versus the automatic.

oh boy why do i get the feeling this thread is gonna become auto vs. manual part 482? well i might as well jump in since its my favorite topic LOL...ok speed aside (cuz we can argue that forever), & only thinking in terms of pure fun, i personally think paddle shifting sucks. now ive never driven it on the 335, BUT i used to be a valet driver & ive driven half a million dollar exotics with paddle shifters & all i could think about was how much it would cost to convert it to a manual lol...as boring as an auto & very awkard IMO...

I can't phecking believe that we're going to have another auto vs. manual thread. :nutz:

Gotta go with Kevlar on this one, the auto is worlds better than previous units, but there is one major hurdle that would kill the auto for me: upgrades.

In the past, BMW autos have been pretty fragile. It is unclear if that is because of the absurd "lifetime fill" crap or because of the driver, but the number of modern (1990+) high-mileage (150k+) original automatic transmissions still working in high power BMWs (540s, 740s, even E36 M3s) is unacceptably low. Also, virtually all of the FI guys run manuals because any time someone has done an auto, the trans went legs up in very short order, unless they had it built by guys like Level 10.

With all the upgrades coming out for the 335, and the potential of many more, I don't think the auto trans will be able to take it. In comparison, toss in a better clutch and the manuals seem to take it just fine.

But then again, you own a Mustang.

Heh, yeah but I'm lurking around to change that. I've got some issues with the way BMW has been doing things of late, so I'm keeping an eye on things. The 335i and the new M3 are compelling to be sure. It's tough though, since the Cobra has long since been paid for, and I've got a lot of work into it. Makes a great track car as well as a DD.

At least you can still get a manual with the 335i and the upcoming M3. And, yes, it's true that autos have come a long way from the slush-o-matic days - and in some cases can provide better mileage.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to let some engineer in Munich (or Detroit) tell ME when the next up- or down-shift should occur - which is likely set to maximize MPG rather than performance. The connection from the driver to the vehicle cannot be matched with an auto.

-Dave

I know your average Joe Schmoe probably wants an auto, but less than 1 in 20 buyers wants a manual on a twin-turbo car? That boggles my mind.

Hi my name is Joe Shmo and I drive a 335.....Well I will by next Wednesday lol

Keep in mind that this is a rather self-selecting forum regarding number of manuals....

And as you guys continue to age and your demographic becomes more irrelevant, manuals will continue to decline in sales. Strictly from a performance standpoint, manuals are quickly becoming relics they roll out just for the old dinosaurs out there set in their ways. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the trend.

You're still an idiot. Probably don't own a car, and don't even know how to drive a manual. So you're interjection is worthless.

Keep in mind that this is a rather self-selecting forum regarding number of manuals....

And as you guys continue to age and your demographic becomes more irrelevant, manuals will continue to decline in sales. Strictly from a performance standpoint, manuals are quickly becoming relics they roll out just for the old dinosaurs out there set in their ways. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the trend.

Dude, you need to STFU. I am 32 and like manuals for my fun car. The Auto's are for daily drivers that I need to share with my wife. Try tracking an auto vs a manual and you will see.

In the past, BMW autos have been pretty fragile. It is unclear if that is because of the absurd "lifetime fill" crap or because of the driver, but the number of modern (1990+) high-mileage (150k+) original automatic transmissions still working in high power BMWs (540s, 740s, even E36 M3s) is unacceptably low. Also, virtually all of the FI guys run manuals because any time someone has done an auto, the trans went legs up in very short order, unless they had it built by guys like Level 10.

With all the upgrades coming out for the 335, and the potential of many more, I don't think the auto trans will be able to take it. In comparison, toss in a better clutch and the manuals seem to take it just fine.

True about the BMW autos being fragile. I actually used to have an E30 325es automatic (can you say slow?) and that tranny went up at around 80-90K miles. And there's been a lot of rumblings about issues with the E46 Steptronic trannies.

Having said that though, when I test drove the 335i, it was a Step and I gotta say, it was really impressive. It seemed to have shifted nearly as quick as Audi's DSG (which is a sweet tranny). But in the end, I still prefer manual and that's what I got in my E92 335i.

You're still an idiot. Probably don't own a car, and don't even know how to drive a manual. So you're interjection is worthless.

Um, no, he's right.

You guys in your 30's aren't exactly young... You were out of college by the time the internet and cell phones become prevalent...

Technology changes, even if you don't. :)

This whole "old age" thing is a horrible argument. I'm pushing 40 and almost all of my friends have gone shiftless. Shifting is usually for the young, not for the old guy that can't accept the new thing. I'm just not as lazy as all my friends who have since given it up because they don't want to deal with it anymore. Everyone of my friends who hasn't driven a stick in a while remembers how much fun it is once they drive my car.

Most of the reasons I hear for getting an auto have to do with traffic, not due to superior feel or performance. The performance of autos may be catching up, but certainly hasn't surpassed the manual at this point. The everyday "joe shmo" may even be quicker in an auto, but that still doesn't make it the better transmition overall.

It seems to me that, at least in 2007 with the 335's auto being so good, the auto vs. manual issue probably doesn't come down purely to speed. I tend to agree that, if not now, autos will probably someday soon be as fast or faster than manuals (that is, if autos and/or manuals are not entirely replaced by transmissions like SMG, DSG, etc.). However, I think what it comes down to for most people (folks that run on the track may also point to some control and performance differences) is the fun/connected-to-the-car factor. A lot of people (including me) feel that driving a manual is just more fun/involving/rewarding/satisfying than driving an auto, with part of that equation feeling more connected to the car. Having (or not having) those feelings is just as subjective as color combos- so, IMO, there really is no right or wrong answer to this debate. Get what you prefer, and respect the decisions of others to get something else.

You mean OTHER than actually shifting the car? Sorry, but a man-u-matic will never give you the same connected-to-the-car feeling as a true manual.



Hmmm...well being under 35 and with a THI over six figures I don't think the manufacturer would consider my demographic irrelevant. In fact I think I am just who they are targeting the 3 series at. All that being said, you'll have to pry my clutch outta my cold dead fingers. Sorry, as I said above, you can't match the feeling of a clutch. Automatics may get FASTER than them and I will STILL choose a manual. It's not always about 0-60 kiddo.

I couldn't agree more. It's not about the numbers. Some people think the numbers are all that matters. I'm not one of those people.

It is sad when even BMW is moving away from manuals. The automatic is a no-cost option on the 5 this year. I wouldn't be surprised if the next 5, like the 7 and X5 already, does not offer a manual.

There's a good forum for die-hard stick shifters:

http://www.standardshift.com

Most of the cars in Europe are manual, even rentals...Welcome to the rest of the world not lazy usa.

Why would you buy a performance car to sit in traffic? I bought my car to enjoy it when it can be, not when I'm driving home from work.

All you silly people talking about how it's the same aren't drivers. You simply want a car that makes you think you are driving. There is a skill and reward to driving an automobile which simply is lost in auto.

Some of you should also do research on why an auto will never match a clutched transmission. The future is a clutchless (pedal there still is a clutch) SMG/DSG transmission. And even then it's very complicated and will not be as reliable.

I could play a video game and feel like I'm driving a car.

The ONLY thing that was non-negotiable when I was looking for my 335...6MT!

Most of the cars in Europe are manual, even rentals...Welcome to the rest of the world not lazy usa.

Why would you buy a performance car to sit in traffic? I bought my car to enjoy it when it can be, not when I'm driving home from work.

All you silly people talking about how it's the same aren't drivers. You simply want a car that makes you think you are driving. There is a skill and reward to driving an automobile which simply is lost in auto.

Some of you should also do research on why an auto will never match a clutched transmission. The future is a clutchless (pedal there still is a clutch) SMG/DSG transmission. And even then it's very complicated and will not be as reliable.

I could play a video game and feel like I'm driving a car.

You are an enthusiast (good for you). However, people like you, me, and most others on this board are in the minority.

Reminds me of what Ford did with the Taurus SHO. Hot rod to the max, V8, manual trans (but driving the wrong wheels, natch). The manual clutch and shifter was reviewed as being horrid. When asked about the lack of manual trans options on later models, some Ford marketing moron said that the demand was so low, they couldn't justify the cost of development and emissions certification.

There were no manuals because Ford was lazy, as are the dealers described here. I will never buy an autostepfakemanualtronic anything on a sports (or even a sporty) car. Save the autos for trucks.

-Dave

The clutch and shifter was not horrid, it was smooth on the uptake, and bangable on the downs...However, it was prone to blow up over and over. My Dad had 3 SHO's, only the first one with manual. It lasted about 50,000 glorious miles (19992-95) blew up on warranty (metal shavings in gear box). The damage was ruled as defective parts induced and replaced entirely on warranty. The new tranny was given a 12,000 mile or 2 yr warranty (lame)
and blew up after 13,000 miles, this time there were metal shavings in box, and the clutch was seized, the car leaked a trail of tranny fluid because a piece of a gear had shot through the crank case. Last try because the car deserved it but it was out of pocket (about 70%). New Driveline from engine back. Let's just say it went bye bye soon after. But, because of a good service advisor, it was turned over into a new SHO. with an auto.

Just a story. But, everytime I hear about someone doing something like taking out their CDV valve or otherwise modifying their driveline on a 40,000 dollar + car I shudder to think what it must cost to replace a driveline in one of these UDM's. Please do not attack me, I am only being prudent by not modifying my vehicle and tolerating a few moments where I am not in complete control of the car's gears and clutch. However, the epidemic of the phasing out of Manual shifters signals an end to an era of driving. It is part of what I refer to as the "pussification" of Western Culture, in particular that of the United States.

Note to BMW : please re engineer a stiffer drivetrain and more aggresively robust design for future Dreier 's (three series). I'd rather have a series where driver input and experience was paramount (minus CDV), featuring all 6mt's than a videogame style (buy an XBOX360) fleet of 6AT's.

You guys in your 30's aren't exactly young... You were out of college by the time the internet and cell phones become prevalent...

Technology changes, even if you don't. :)

Don't make ASSumptions. Cellphones and the Internet were prevalent 10yrs ago. I was using both of them while in school.

Technology does change for the better, but the act of driving is still the same. Having a manual transmission isn't for everyone or every application, but IMO it enhances the driving experience. Take an auto to the track or auto-x and then compare to a manual. You'll get it then. Unless you can't drive a manual :)

Good story. And the point about the CDV valve is exactly why I'm concerned that BMW may be softening it's ways. The drivetrain should be designed to handle normal shifting shock loads, and dumbing down the clutch release is hardly what I would call the ultimate driving solution.

I can appreciate the need for autos on some cars - like a DD in traffic. But an auto just doesn't cut it on the track (SMG or otherwise) as there are many cases where slipping the clutch or otherwise gradually applying power to the wheels is needed. A SMG downshift would either be too abrupt in some cases (like entering a hairpin corner) or too soft for the other cases. And with a manual, I can bounce off the rev limiter if I need to.

But if one never tracks their car, then this may not be relevant. I have to wonder though - why get a high performance car that you can't let loose now and then? Track days are fun! ;)

-Dave

I'm 43, and I DO NOT WANT AN AUTOMATIC. I guess it's, just more evidence of my immaturity, but I like shifting. If SMG was available, I would be all over it, but it's not.

Good story. And the point about the CDV valve is exactly why I'm concerned that BMW may be softening it's ways. The drivetrain should be designed to handle normal shifting shock loads, and dumbing down the clutch release is hardly what I would call the ultimate driving solution.


But if one never tracks their car, then this may not be relevant. I have to wonder though - why get a high performance car that you can't let loose now and then? Track days are fun! ;)


I can appreciate the need for autos on some cars - like a DD in traffic. But an auto just doesn't cut it on the track (SMG or otherwise) as there are many cases where slipping the clutch or otherwise gradually applying power to the wheels is needed. A SMG downshift would either be too abrupt in some cases (like entering a hairpin corner) or too soft for the other cases. And with a manual, I can bounce off the rev limiter if I need to.
-Dave

Some may take exactly the opposite opinion -- on the street, optimal driving pleasure (ie, shifting manually, feeling some curves, creature comforts, etc) is part of what you want. However, these days, as some of our comrades will I'm sure testify, the technomatic gear box is so efficient and smooth that on a track , it's upshifts are more precise and definitely faster, while downshifts are accomplished so fast that there is a move to outlaw SMG in many circles of racing.

There is nothing wrong with auto, in fact everybody has one in their Buick, but they go to bed at 7:30. Sure it's easier to eat a Mc Griddle, and drink coffee while tooling around the neighbor hood, but like I said a million times

You DRIVE a 6MT
You Ride in an Auto

You guys in your 30's aren't exactly young... You were out of college by the time the internet and cell phones become prevalent...

Technology changes, even if you don't. :)

You must be 11, all those things have been around much longer than you.

A. When you're old enough to buy a car for yourself, feel free to join an adult conversation.

B. Learn to drive what you cannot....a car.

Most of the cars in Europe are manual, even rentals...Welcome to the rest of the world not lazy usa.

Last year automatics outside manuals worldwide for the first time ever. Or was it 2005? Either way, it was recent, and the trend is clear. I believe that automatics tend to be popular in the growth markets of Asia.

Even in Europe, how many large cars are manual? For instance, what percentage of the 5ers sold in Germany are manuals? I don't know, but I'd like to.

Last year automatics outside manuals worldwide for the first time ever. Or was it 2005? Either way, it was recent, and the trend is clear. I believe that automatics tend to be popular in the growth markets of Asia.

Even in Europe, how many large cars are manual? For instance, what percentage of the 5ers sold in Germany are manuals? I don't know, but I'd like to.

Hello "mkaresh":

From what I have read, absolutely none of the M5's.

Hey all:

Late to this thread, but my dealer (Manhattan BMW) said 40% of E90s (he didn't break down 328 vs 335) are MT. Having said that, he also noted that MT sales in NYC are slim. In fact he made me put up $5000 when ordering my car so they wouldn't get stuck with it if I canceled.

Sure, I'm an old guy (52) but I stay up to date with technology as well as any kid, in fact kid's knowledge is way over-rated, I have to fix my daughter's PC on a regular basis.

Anyway I don't drive every day, so when I do I like to enjoy it. I like driving MT, but if you don't that's fine too.

I'm teaching my 23yo daughter how to drive MT. She's the artistic type, not the mechanical type. But after a few lessons, and she's far from proficient, I asked her if she was beginning to understand why some people prefer MT and she happily agreed.

So to that kid who complains about stick but who can't drive one, hate to tell you, us old folks are subverting yet another generation. I'm sure BMW is quite happy about it too.

Denton

Ironic that Europe is the bastion of the clutch, yet BMW created a clutched M5 for the US.

Venturing off-topic: Last time I visited the BMW dealer in Bloomfield Hills, MI, they had what appeared to be a fully loaded M5 in the showroom, with a manual transmission. Included the full leather interior. The leather on the IP was oddly smooth, different than I've seen in a car before. I think the MSRP was $97,000.

I'm new to this forum (first post) but I had a step in a 330i and thought it was great. Now I have the 6MT in a 335 and I find it more fun to drive unless I'm in heavy traffic. Both have their merits. The new shifting technology is a big improvement over the old auto trannys.

True about the BMW autos being fragile. I actually used to have an E30 325es automatic (can you say slow?) and that tranny went up at around 80-90K miles. And there's been a lot of rumblings about issues with the E46 Steptronic trannies.

Having said that though, when I test drove the 335i, it was a Step and I gotta say, it was really impressive. It seemed to have shifted nearly as quick as Audi's DSG (which is a sweet tranny). But in the end, I still prefer manual and that's what I got in my E92 335i.

Is it the BMW transmission or the driver? I have noticed many bmw drivers who like to mash on the gas then slam on the brakes 50 feet later at a red light.

That's a crap argument. They don't sell them because they don't have them. people buy what is there. I noticed a lot of 6MTs on here, looks like they were ordered.

How can they sell something they don't have...so they tell you people don't like them, but yet when the have one they sell quick or they try to mark it up because they say its "in demand".

Ah be careful, you're falling into a trap here. Statistically speaking, there are more enthusiasts represented here than the total 335 population. As such, you're going to see more 6MTs here - at least thats my guess.

In the end, I suspect manual trannies on the sedans and convertibles will hurt trade-in value but not resale. It will just take longer to find a buyer. On coupes I think it will be a wash.

Having said that, I have a 6MT convertible on order. Manuals are just more fun. If it costs me more in the end, so be it. Look at it this way: I didn't have to pay the $1200 (or is $1400) for the automatic.

My $.02

Andrew

Resale is never lower on a MT, you actually make out because you're not financing the cost of the auto, and since you paid less it obviously will be worth less.

And since I think enthusiasts buy 6MT it will be easier to sell because somebody will be looking, and the choices less.

Don't make ASSumptions. Cellphones and the Internet were prevalent 10yrs ago. I was using both of them while in school.



I didn't say they didn't exist.... I said they weren't prevalent. Not in in the mid-90's.... sorry. Maybe a couple guys had a "Zack Morris" phones the size of a brick.... and the internet was being used by very few and for very little other than porn and basic email with the other limited people that had it.

I didn't say they didn't exist.... I said they weren't prevalent. Not in in the mid-90's.... sorry. Maybe a couple guys had a "Zack Morris" phones the size of a brick.... and the internet was being used by very few and for very little other than porn and basic email with the other limited people that had it.

Sorry sport, you're assumptions are wrong.

Keep in mind that this is a rather self-selecting forum regarding number of manuals....

And as you guys continue to age and your demographic becomes more irrelevant, manuals will continue to decline in sales. Strictly from a performance standpoint, manuals are quickly becoming relics they roll out just for the old dinosaurs out there set in their ways. There are obviously exceptions, but this is the trend.

Whatcha drink'n up there in Wisconsin AEARLM? Do you know how to drive a manual? 6 speed all the way ....:redspot

I didn't say they didn't exist.... I said they weren't prevalent. Not in in the mid-90's.... sorry. Maybe a couple guys had a "Zack Morris" phones the size of a brick.... and the internet was being used by very few and for very little other than porn and basic email with the other limited people that had it.

Considering I had a Motorola Star-Tac (quite slim actually) in 1995 and authored an e-commerce website for a book publishing company the same year, I'd have to say you're wrong.

Big Earl probably doesn't even own a car...

Big Earl probably doesn't even own a car...
Was he even born in the mid nineties, or is he just googling 1995 webpages for info. I was in university early-mid nineties and cellphones were everywhere and so was the internet. Back then I researched most of my projects online. BTW, the internet has been around since the 60s, long before most everyone here was born and it was used for research just until recently when kids like you started demanding porn to fulfill their needs when they can't get any girls because they are too dumb and full of shit.

Kiddo, the only thing that is changing with time is how ignorant some kids are growing up to be.

Ok first off (and not that it matters) I am 27. There is no substitute for a manual transmission. While I agree that the new Auto transmission is top notch, it will never be as fun to drive as a manual.

Look at all the good motoring shows (made by people who know cars) like Top Gear and Fifth Gear. Every time they review a car with the latest and greatest auto/dual clutch transmission, they end by saying don't bother, it just isn't as fun as a manual.

When it comes down to it, it is obviously a preference. But I can't stand it when some one has the audacity to say that it is a dying trend. I can't name one TRUE car enthusiast that would pick an auto over a manual. As for me, I want to have complete control of my car until I am unable to push down on that clutch because of my 3rd hip replacement.

I didn't say they didn't exist.... I said they weren't prevalent. Not in in the mid-90's.... sorry. Maybe a couple guys had a "Zack Morris" phones the size of a brick.... and the internet was being used by very few and for very little other than porn and basic email with the other limited people that had it.

Ahh...Earl...spoken with all the ignorance of youth.

Whether auto or manual, the 335 highlights the wide appeal to all purchasers. I love track work, others want it as a daily driver with enough grunt to have some fun. Regardless how it is delivered, whether auto or MT as long as you enjoy your car that is all that matters.

Kiddo, the only thing that is changing with time is how ignorant some kids are growing up to be.

I doubt this changes all that much :rolleyes

To respond to the original question, I think that it depends on the dealer and the area. A performance oriented dealer in a non-urban setting is going to sell more MT cars than an “image focused” dealer near a city.

Another factor is a percentage of MT buyers would appear to be more car oriented, and thus more likely to have a clear idea of what they do and do not want in the way of options. This makes it problematical for a dealer to order a MT car for the lot. And for the same reason a MT buyer probably walks in willing and expecting to order the car in the first place.

To each his own, and in some scenarios I can see myself buying an automatic. But those of you obsess with 0-60 times have bought the wrong car. And those who maintain that the newer automatics are “just as good” miss the point that you paid a good chunk of money for what….”just as good”?

Oh, and I will let my 16 year old daughter know that as she “continue[s] to age [her] demographic becomes more irrelevant”.

the 5% figure is a little harsh. The number is higher, no doubt

In 1995 there were about 12 mobile phones per 100 people in the U.S... now there are about 80 phones per 100 people.

In 1995 there were about 12 mobile phones per 100 people in the U.S... now there are about 80 phones per 100 people.

Care to declare your source AEarlM? Your stats don't quite look right....:embarrasm

It's a marketing thing. Some bean counters at BMW figured the 95/5 ratio. My guess is that if the U.S. Auto/Manual ratio was more like 85/15 they would sell them all. But they're the experts!

Can you go from 5th gear to 3rd gear instantly in "paddle shift" mode? Or do you have to go through 4th to get there?

A reference to a completely different car but on the same manual vs. auto train of thought, the Cadillac 4.9L V8 was only offered with automatics. The 4.9L is a popular engine to put into a Fiero because of the rear-engine rear-drive and huge torque in a small car.

Fieros with automatic 4.9L's run 14.5-15.0 1/4 miles. Fieros with manuals run in the 13.0-14.0 range, depending on driver.

As far as WHP is concerned, manual trumps automatic because it is a more efficient design without a torque converter, I believe. That may change in the future.

As far as SMGs go, they are like a motorcycle transmission, and you couldn't go straight from 5th to 2nd if you wanted to. The manual gives you more control over the car, gear choice, and a clutch. That gives you two methods of controlling the wheels, throttle and clutch, and the unlimited combinations of input allowed on each.

Want to engine-brake? Not possible in automatics AFAIK.

These are my arguments about the transmissions. Truthfully I drive an automatic every day, and can't really complain, except when I want to street-race or get good gas mileage.

http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/11980/2007-porsche-911-turbo-tiptronic.html

Care to declare your source AEarlM? Your stats don't quite look right....:embarrasm

http://files.ctia.org/pdf/CTIA_Survey_Year_End_2006_Graphics.pdf

Frustrating when those pesky facts keep getting in the way.... :)

Don't take it so personal guys, everybody gets old and loses touch eventually.

Do you know if the clutch is covered by warranty?

Do you know if the clutch is covered by warranty?


Clutches are never covered by warranty.

Owned a RSX-S with 6 speed manual. Loved it until a I fractured my left foot in accident (running and stepped in damn hole, sprained ankle, and tore tendon as well). Car sat in garage for 6 months. Have auto now and hope I don't break right foot. Also, my wife can't walk and chew gum at same time much less drive a manual. Tried to teach her several years ago and was too painful.

I love how some you guys automatically categorize non-MT'ers as "non-enthusiasts" because I just got a 335i with the Steptronic and I consider myself just as much of a driver as you purists with 6MT's.

I started with a Honda CRX back in the day. Then, I got an Acura Integra GS-R and was one of the very first East Coast owners to slap a Jackson Racing supercharger on that newly introduced, high-revving Honda motor. I then got a 2000 M Roadster and had one of the very few (at the time) E36 motors putting down 400 rwhp with the aid of a Stage III supercharger kit (before they became more commonplace). I then got my wife a TurboXS Stage 4-upgraded Subaru WRX which put down over 200 whp. All of those cars were manuals, except for the CRX.

But, this latest BMW is a Steptronic simply because I got sick of driving in LA traffic and my foot couldn't stand it anymore. Does paddle-shifting make me any less of an enthusiast? I don't think so. Are you going to tell all the Formula One racers with their paddle-shifters that they aren't drivers like you awesome purists?

Soon, automatic motorcycles will be hitting the markets and this same argument will be rehashed all over again. It's pretty narrow-minded. I remember Porsche owners bitching about liquid-cooled versus air-cooled engines. The marketplace changes. Demands change. If not, we'd all be wearing polyester bell-bottoms and listening to disco 45" records.

... Does paddle-shifting make me any less of an enthusiast? I don't think so.


No. But you are losing the intimacy of the driver/vehicle connection. Given this is your daily driver with no indication that you may track the car, why not just get a 328? Seems such a waste to get a 335i with an auto.

...Are you going to tell all the Formula One racers with their paddle-shifters that they aren't drivers like you awesome purists?


YES! (wimps!)

If you really want to drive a sports car and are a manual maniac get a Lotus Elise. Otherwise, you have settled for a lesser car (or purchased an exotic) so your manual is better than auto is a poor argument since you are driving an inferior car. The Lotus blows away every other car for handling.

I think there have been a number of similar threads on this topic -- probably on every car forum out there, too :)

As a technology professional, I have a few comments here:

1. To set the record straight, the Internet Protocol (IP) and Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that make up the basis (TCP/IP) for all modern Internet protocols today (HTTP, SOAP, JMS, MQ, UDDI, etc) have been around for a long, long time. It was, obviously, the introduction of the "web" to the general population in 1993 that really drove the adoption of the backbone to what it is today. Being that e-mail (even that based upon bulletin board private e-mail networks) was around before that based upon SMTP/POP3/FIDO/etc, it's very conceivable that people in their 30's would have been using these technologies in college -- although, the terms RACF, VM, and VAX might also mean something to the upper 30's crowd! :)

2. Technology DOES change. So does demand. While I won't begin to participate in the conversation of which is "better" -- since this is purely a matter of taste, convenience and know-how for most people -- it will be interesting to see where things end up in 10 or 15 years. I don't claim to know the statistics, but I could easily believe that automatic sales are increasing and potentially surpassing manuals world-wide. After all, we no longer "roll up and down" our windows, we push buttons. We no longer "dial in" radio stations, we use digital tuners. We no longer do a LOT of things, as the technology changes and energy to "perform" refocuses. In the technology business, when something reaches this point, we typically say that it has become "commodity" and soon after it gets replaced with something better, or industry focuses on how to do the "next best thing" on top of it. Take the Personal Computer (PC) business -- it's 100% commodity now. 10 years ago it was a hot business to get into. Today you'd be crazy to think about a start-up in the PC sector given it's level of commodity.

However, when things DO become commodity, industry typically focuses on making it better by innovating by either making the existing technology better, or inventing a way to capitalize on the existing ideas and technology with a new one. In the case of cars, we see this trend. Every part in a modern car is better than it was a generation ago, and so forth. As a result, in the autosport world, the races become more intense because the "anty is upped" by the introduction of technologies that can further defy physics and bring racing further to the edges. Some form of innovative "automatic" technology may at some point (and it may be soon) be replacing that manual transmissions.

3. I'm not an expert on transmissions by any means, but wouldn't a reliable DD form of the F1 gearbox be ideal? It seems even the exotics are moving in this direction. Lambo, Ferrari, and a number of others have taken a larger percentage of their street cars in this direction in the last 10 years, as well. It used to be more rare to find the F1 gearbox Ferraris -- now it's much more popular.

Anyway, just my two cents.

If you really want to drive a sports car and are a manual maniac get a Lotus Elise. Otherwise, you have settled for a lesser car (or purchased an exotic) so your manual is better than auto is a poor argument since you are driving an inferior car. The Lotus blows away every other car for handling.

The Lotus is pretty much unlivable as a daily driver. Before I drove one I figured, "Oh, people only say that because they're not purists and too interested in luxury." Then I drove one.

To respond to the original question, I think that it depends on the dealer and the area. A performance oriented dealer in a non-urban setting is going to sell more MT cars than an “image focused” dealer near a city.

Another factor is a percentage of MT buyers would appear to be more car oriented, and thus more likely to have a clear idea of what they do and do not want in the way of options. This makes it problematical for a dealer to order a MT car for the lot. And for the same reason a MT buyer probably walks in willing and expecting to order the car in the first place.

I really like this hypothesis, that if certain features are likely to be bought by people who want everything precisely how they want it, dealers aren't likely to stock cars with those features. Makes a lot of sense. But is it true?

No. But you are losing the intimacy of the driver/vehicle connection. Given this is your daily driver with no indication that you may track the car, why not just get a 328? Seems such a waste to get a 335i with an auto.



YES! (wimps!)

You're killing me, dude. Says who? It's all a matter of opinion. It's just like purist martial artists who cry about mixed-martial arts diluting all that is pure and good in the world. Complete comedy.

Guys like you shouldn't even be driving cars. Instead, you should still be riding horses. Then, you'll really feel connected to your horsepower and won't have to worry about all that metal disconnecting you from your experience.

:)

You're killing me, dude. Says who? It's all a matter of opinion. It's just like purist martial artists who cry about mixed-martial arts diluting all that is pure and good in the world. Complete comedy.

Guys like you shouldn't even be driving cars. Instead, you should still be riding horses. Then, you'll really feel connected to your horsepower and won't have to worry about all that metal disconnecting you from your experience.

:)
Aren't we still living in a democratic part of the world where people with different opinions can peacefully coexist! MT/AT is just a matter of personal preference or need. The only fact is that the MT is more fuel efficient and faster giving all other specs are the same, the rest is just a matter of opinion.
What's next, Linux v.s. Windows, I use both :redspot.

You're killing me, dude. Says who? It's all a matter of opinion. It's just like purist martial artists who cry about mixed-martial arts diluting all that is pure and good in the world. Complete comedy.

Guys like you shouldn't even be driving cars. Instead, you should still be riding horses. Then, you'll really feel connected to your horsepower and won't have to worry about all that metal disconnecting you from your experience.

:)


Heh - but the power generated by that horse would be reduced by the new ULEV standards. Besides, I can't get a manual trans on a horse - it's automatic only. :)

I think that some of you auto fans are presuming that those of us that prefer manuals are some kind of snobs. I'm not a manual trans snob - but what has yet to be challenged is the view that an auto can take away the connection of the car to the driver. And, that for a road course or for carving corners, most autos leave some element of control back at the engineer's desk.

All of which misses the point that started this thread. For those that DO prefer a manual, is it too much to ask to be able to find one to test drive? Some manuals are pretty poor in their feel and engagement. But it's damn impossible to find one to try out except for the rare cases where only a manual is offered (or the autos come later).

I would argue that the laziness of many dealers helps contribute to the demise of the stick. They only want to have loaded cars on the lot so that when you come in for a drive, they can peddle the monthly payment for a quick sale. There was a time when an auto was considered a luxury item - some dealers are still stuck there.

And as I pointed out, some car makers produce genuinely horrid manuals, then use that as an argument to produce only autos.

In the end though, if there is no manual (or a bad one) there is no sale to me. A preference for same does not make me old fashioned or out of touch anymore than a preference for an auto makes one an old man incapable of handling a car properly and cares for luxury over sport.

-Dave

Sad statistics, manual will survive because Europe

I use MacOS, Solaris, and free BSD

Only some of us can be in the 5 percentile...smart. :)

For those who think auto doesn't take away from the driving experience, why not get electric steering and brake by wire.

Nobody that says MT is more of a driver/enthusiast option says that auto is the devil.

i would take manual for sure. i mean for a car like that you most likely need a manual.

I think there have been a number of similar threads on this topic -- probably on every car forum out there, too :)

As a technology professional, I have a few comments here:

1. To set the record straight, the Internet Protocol (IP) and Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) that make up the basis (TCP/IP) for all modern Internet protocols today (HTTP, SOAP, JMS, MQ, UDDI, etc) have been around for a long, long time. It was, obviously, the introduction of the "web" to the general population in 1993 that really drove the adoption of the backbone to what it is today. Being that e-mail (even that based upon bulletin board private e-mail networks) was around before that based upon SMTP/POP3/FIDO/etc, it's very conceivable that people in their 30's would have been using these technologies in college -- although, the terms RACF, VM, and VAX might also mean something to the upper 30's crowd! :)

2. Technology DOES change. So does demand. While I won't begin to participate in the conversation of which is "better" -- since this is purely a matter of taste, convenience and know-how for most people -- it will be interesting to see where things end up in 10 or 15 years. I don't claim to know the statistics, but I could easily believe that automatic sales are increasing and potentially surpassing manuals world-wide. After all, we no longer "roll up and down" our windows, we push buttons. We no longer "dial in" radio stations, we use digital tuners. We no longer do a LOT of things, as the technology changes and energy to "perform" refocuses. In the technology business, when something reaches this point, we typically say that it has become "commodity" and soon after it gets replaced with something better, or industry focuses on how to do the "next best thing" on top of it. Take the Personal Computer (PC) business -- it's 100% commodity now. 10 years ago it was a hot business to get into. Today you'd be crazy to think about a start-up in the PC sector given it's level of commodity.

However, when things DO become commodity, industry typically focuses on making it better by innovating by either making the existing technology better, or inventing a way to capitalize on the existing ideas and technology with a new one. In the case of cars, we see this trend. Every part in a modern car is better than it was a generation ago, and so forth. As a result, in the autosport world, the races become more intense because the "anty is upped" by the introduction of technologies that can further defy physics and bring racing further to the edges. Some form of innovative "automatic" technology may at some point (and it may be soon) be replacing that manual transmissions.

3. I'm not an expert on transmissions by any means, but wouldn't a reliable DD form of the F1 gearbox be ideal? It seems even the exotics are moving in this direction. Lambo, Ferrari, and a number of others have taken a larger percentage of their street cars in this direction in the last 10 years, as well. It used to be more rare to find the F1 gearbox Ferraris -- now it's much more popular.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Hello "ezmaass":

Well heck. And here I was going to ask about where I could find a 6V6 and 12AX7 based amp to replace the solid state unit in the 335. Everyone knows that those old tube amps delivered better sound, right? I mean the "purists" would never settle for this new-fangled digital sound, right?

VAX? We still have a few of those.

theres not that much difference from the manual to the auto IMO...

comon man thats the top 10 stupid comments of the year there.
not to flame, but the auto is wayyy to mild compared to driving a stick...

The geeks have taken over!

To the original point, trans preference is a large part geographic. I worked at Nissan and Infiniti for many years and you saw a LOT more auto preference in areas (like the northeast and CA) where drivers sat in stop and go traffic a lot. No one wants to ride a clutch up and down and up and down for an hour a day.

somebody said before that bmw doesn't move manual cars and that the auto is better so way do most bmws not just the 3 series come standard with a stick and auto is an option. That because these cars are ment to be driven and the driver is supposed to be in control. personally i don't know how to drive an auto. Manual all the way

[quote=Beer Goggles;9783301]

For those who think auto doesn't take away from the driving experience, why not get electric steering and brake by wire.

quote]

Why don't you do away with power steering altogether if you are such a driving purist?

The fact remains that many of the new auto transmissions are nearly as fast, as fast, or even faster than the manuals (even in the hands of the best drivers.... which you probably aren't)... depending on the car.

That's a fact.... even if you choose to remain in denial.

That being said, "feel of the road/car" and "enjoyability" are viable reasons to choose a manual if you prefer.... but don't go making up stuff in an attempt to hold your position.

[quote=Beer Goggles;9783301]

For those who think auto doesn't take away from the driving experience, why not get electric steering and brake by wire.

quote]

Why don't you do away with power steering altogether if you are such a driving purist?


It's not an option, and power steering still has a direct link the the wheels so you get feed back

So Mr. Dump Truck driver...where is a picture of you driving your 335 through a corn field?

[quote=AEarlM;9786062]


It's not an option, and power steering still has a direct link the the wheels so you get feed back

So Mr. Dump Truck driver...where is a picture of you driving your 335 through a corn field?

I haven't done that yet.... my drinking and driving vehicle is a Ford. :)

My car is exactly the same as the Space Gray coupe shown on the first several pages of the brochure.... I'm not the type of guy that has/takes pictures of their car. Maybe that stems from my opinion that it was always the biggest losers that had their senior pictures taken with their car. :rolleyes

Easy there, padres. Let's not get all bent. Some guys just like playing with their sticks while driving. (Just kidding, suckas) :)

I actually think using your eyes takes away from the thrill of driving using just "The Force." So, I'm going to start closing my eyes. I'm probably also going to go ahead and cut a hole in the floorboard and use my feet to brake a la Fred Flintstone. That way, I'll REALLY feel the road. :)

Since I'm entering late, let me start by saying I currently own a 6MT 335i coupe. I have also owned two AT's (2001 740i and 2005 Audi A6) which also allow you to shift manually. I believed at the time that I bought these cars that I actually would manually shift them. As it turns out I rarely did because the satisfaction level, for me, was close to zero. That being said, I think it would be a great poll question posed to all AT owners "What percentage of the time do you actually shift your automatic transmission manually?" My guess is that the same 5% would hold true. I'm sure the auto box is great, but just not for me.

After all the effort learning to heel and toe there is no way I'll de-clutch.

That's a crap argument. They don't sell them because they don't have them. people buy what is there. I noticed a lot of 6MTs on here, looks like they were ordered.

How can they sell something they don't have...so they tell you people don't like them, but yet when the have one they sell quick or they try to mark it up because they say its "in demand".

Yup, One of the first rules in sales, Sell what we have!

What's next, Linux v.s. Windows, I use both :redspot.

Now there's a debate I could sink my teeth into! Add MacOS into the mix and we'd have quite the lively discussion!

And yes, I happen to believe that tube amps DO have a much fuller and richer sound, they're just way too impractical for today's audio applications unfortunately.

Long live the MT!

Now there's a debate I could sink my teeth into! Add MacOS into the mix and we'd have quite the lively discussion!

And yes, I happen to believe that tube amps DO have a much fuller and richer sound, they're just way too impractical for today's audio applications unfortunately.

Long live the MT!

Hello "aftp302":

And why would that be? Should we compare the plate characteristic curves of a tetrode against the collector characteristic curves of a bipolar transistor? Perhaps you can give us a Fourier analysis of the clipping charastics of the two? How about third harmonics? And the effects of plate impedance reflected as the square of the turns ratio through the output transformer of a tube amplifier vs the direct coupling of a complementary symmetry bipolar design?

How do we judge the accuracy? Do we put the signal through an anti-aliasing filter, perform an FFT on each, compare the input and output for phase and amplitude distortion?

I will stop now...

Personally anybody who says older stuff sounded warmer just likes the memory of the time and not the music. Vinyl doesn't sound better, if you went to see a live band back then they didn't have hissing and popping of a needle. :)

You can hear crappy digital recordings at a low bit rate.

Personally anybody who says older stuff sounded warmer just likes the memory of the time and not the music. Vinyl doesn't sound better, if you went to see a live band back then they didn't have hissing and popping of a needle. :)

You can hear crappy digital recordings at a low bit rate.

Hello "Beer Goggles":

Turn back the clock to the late 70's when Phillips introduced the CD (and I was working on my first degree). A lot of dubious arguments about the 44.1 KHZ 16 bit sampling, the EFM (eight to fourteen modulation) encoding techniques (including NRZI), and some religious statements about "oversampling" (with complete disregard to the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem) for playback.

I did not believe them then. DAMN WAS I WRONG. Since then, I have learned the skills necessary to check the premises and conclusions on my own. Heck, I verified that I was wrong and I could prove it mathematically.

So, my cynicism was hard earned. It will be equally hard to dissuade.

Drag up a chalk board and start with Maxwell's equations!