I'd like to know if your TX insurance policy has an exclusion for track events.

I'm with Farmers, and my read of the policy reveals no exclusions. Though I understand that some ins. carriers in TX have been adding the exclusions come renewal.

I think it's inevitable. So today, after previously deciding to sell both M3s, I'm keeping the ltw. Will track it and the GT3 and go solely with the ltw if my carrier adds the exclusion.

I'm with state farm, and while I'm way too lazy to read the policy myself, I know someone who has. He's not on this forum, but he tracks his daily driver so he is concerned with coverage. He claims that to date, there is nothing keeping his insurance from denying a claim on track. I don't know if he's assuming it isn't timed, or if it's an 'education/training event' for the coverage to be honored.

Not sure if that helps really. Personally, I'm of the mindset to only track something I can accept to throw away. But my non ltw ( :( ) 95 M3 isn't the same as the cars you're bringing to the track.

I was at TWS last weekend (sat) and this happened Sunday:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u247/turbomike1/80pic017.jpg

Really got me thinking of the putting a 125k car at risk out there, and the fact that I'll never go 10/10's in the car. If my ins carrier excludes coverage, that would clearly dictate using a cheaper car on track.

I was at TWS last weekend (sat) and this happened Sunday:

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u247/turbomike1/80pic017.jpg

Really got me thinking of the putting a 125k car at risk out there, and the fact that I'll never go 10/10's in the car. If my ins carrier excludes coverage, that would clearly dictate using a cheaper car on track.

looks like about 4k worth of damage on that car.
I think it has to do with timed or non-timed educational type events.

Texas used to have a state written policy that didn't exclude track events. However, I have heard that companies can write their own policies. So...read you renewal information very carefully.

Its true that Texas USED TO have a state mandated policy, but that has now been lifted.

Insurance companies are now free to screw us in every way possible. Many are creating exclusions for track events. Non-timed drivers education events included.. like it or not.

I was at TWS last weekend (sat) and this happened Sunday:

Really got me thinking of the putting a 125k car at risk out there, and the fact that I'll never go 10/10's in the car. If my ins carrier excludes coverage, that would clearly dictate using a cheaper car on track.

I've been at the track for 3 rollovers in the last year, which lead me to sell my daily driven E46M3 to buy a tahoe+trailer+trackE36M3. Even if your insurance did cover totaling a $40k car (125 i guess in your case), how long will you be paying for it in jacked up premiums? That was a question I wasn't prepared to find the answer to.

I actually insure my track car, but mostly in case it was stolen or a tree falls on it. I dunno, maybe I'm wasting my money.

So.... porn website for a living? Hook a guy up with free login?

looks like about 4k worth of damage on that car.
I think it has to do with timed or non-timed educational type events.

I'm covered through USAA and there isn't anything mentioned in my policy.
I friend works for the company and said that depending on the incident, they can pretty much deny anything they want (then the lawsuit option comes up). Especially if the adjuster can tell what happened, where, police reports etc....

how much you selling the 95 daily for?

IIRC the maximum surcharge for an at fault accident is 30% for 3 years.

It seems like a coin toss really. I have heard of Farmers covering cars wrecked at DE's in TX before though.

Fraido..you should have kept the 95 and mod the crap out of it and turn it into a track car. I would feel nervous to track the ltw and the P car. ..knowing you and your reps from couple lil bees :D

No fun out there if you not willing to push it a little bit. I was at a P car event last year...the older P cars were driving at 8/10 vs the new cars...at granny pace.

My thought is if you're going to track a car REGULARLY..expect the worst that can happen....most of the bad incidents that I've witness resulted from advance drivers pushing the limit...and then shchitt happened!

FYI, local BMW member here is a owner at one of the high end body shop that cater to the
BMW club and racers. He has a list of insurance companies that will pay for track related incidents. You should check with your trusted body shops and see who they recommend for insurance.

I would talk to M3Adjuster (Mark Williams) He can probably clear things up for you

thanks guys

Tony, I'm not concerned about tracking the ltw. That's what it's made for. :)

it depends. state farm covered me under educational driving events, but would not cover me under tracking events. now since i'm force inducted state farm will not cover me at all, so i had to go to progressive, which has specific mandates against covering drivers that track their cars. so i don't track it anymore, at least until i get a dedicated track car. it's just not worth it to me.

State farm excludes you as soon as you slap a hairdryer on your car?

it depends. state farm covered me under educational driving events, but would not cover me under tracking events. now since i'm force inducted state farm will not cover me at all, so i had to go to progressive, which has specific mandates against covering drivers that track their cars. so i don't track it anymore, at least until i get a dedicated track car. it's just not worth it to me.

Eh? They never asked me how many turbos I had on my policy. :devillook

that's because they won't tell you unless you specifically go to corporate and bypass your local agent. this way they get you to pay your premiums, but when it comes time to make a claim they will screw you over. my local agent, glenn moore, wasn't even aware of this. so now you're warned.

Boreallis.... being the guy that issues those checks.. all I am going to say is that you are wrong.. unequivocally wrong.


Stuck is correct... All TX residents need to READ their policy or check for changes as they come up for renewal due to recent changes that allow for each insurered to apply to use their own policy form. Keep in mind that each and every insurer must individually apply to have their own policy approved, so this will be a slow process...

Most companies will have a flyer enclosed in the renewal package to alert you to changes in the policy.. much like the enclosures from a credit card company when they change their rates/fees, etc..

Thanks Adjuster.

Do you think it inevitable that all companies will exclude DEs? I'm guessing the insurance industry operates under a 'pack mentality'; some more aggressive with such exclusions but eventually all of them making it to the watering hole.

I'm wondering if it really makes sense to insure a car that only sees track time. I guess it would be nice to have coverage if it was stolen or I was in an accident while towing.

You can buy STP (storage, transport, paddock) policies for cheap (less than $200 per year). IMO, the way Texas insurance used to be (or still is if your company still uses the state language) it makes no sense NOT to have insurance. That is, unless you are racing.

I'm wondering if it really makes sense to insure a car that only sees track time. I guess it would be nice to have coverage if it was stolen or I was in an accident while towing.

Then carry comprehensive only.... it may take a little bit of wrangling to get your insurer to do it.... most agents are leery (with good reason) of not having liability on the policy.. A good thing to tell them is that the car is either a
1) a show car that is never driven on roads
2) currently being restored..

I favor option 2.

Comprehensive coverage covers wind, flood, fire, vandalism, theft, damage from falling or flying objects, glass breakage, contact with a bird or animal, and civil riot or commotion. If you are really concerned about coverage for the vehicle itself while on a trailer if the trailer is hit, jacknifed, etc... then you want coverage D-3 - SPECIFIED CAUSES OF LOSS


D-3 coverage handles ONLY the following..

-fire, lightning or explosion
-theft
-the sinking, burning, collision, or derailment of any vessel or vehicle in or
upon which your auto is being transported
-windstorm, hail or earthquake
-flood
-mischief or vandalism ($25 deductible)

Normal comprehensive coverage actually handles other miscellaneous losses, damages from airborne objects (tire tread, or ladder or paint can falling in your garage, etc).. plus glass breakage (although if something hit the glass while the vehicle was on a trailer it could be covered under D-3) . There are a host of other accidental losses (lost keys and key-fobs, overspray, etc ) that are handled under comprehensive so that's why I have normal comprehensive rather than D-3.

I most often see D-3 attached to motorcycles.. but certainly it could apply for a show car.

Keep in mind that if you carry D-3 or D (comprehensive) only, that if you decide to drive the
car from the track to the gas station, or if you hit another car in the paddock, then you'll be
paying the damages from your own pocket if you remove liability only.

Excellent information. I need to look at my coverage and see what makes sense for me I guess.

Thanks Adjuster.

Do you think it inevitable that all companies will exclude DEs? I'm guessing the insurance industry operates under a 'pack mentality'; some more aggressive with such exclusions but eventually all of them making it to the watering hole.

ACK.. I had a very complete post on this and it was lost as I was somehow logged off.. will retry later.

Boreallis.... being the guy that issues those checks.. all I am going to say is that you are wrong.. unequivocally wrong.


Stuck is correct... All TX residents need to READ their policy or check for changes as they come up for renewal due to recent changes that allow for each insurered to apply to use their own policy form. Keep in mind that each and every insurer must individually apply to have their own policy approved, so this will be a slow process...

Most companies will have a flyer enclosed in the renewal package to alert you to changes in the policy.. much like the enclosures from a credit card company when they change their rates/fees, etc..

You write checks for state farm specifically? I'm not generalizing all insurance companies, I'm reiterating my experience with state farm. The local agent was pretty surprised with the take that state farm corporate was taking on this, and what it boiled down to was the interpretation of the insurance policy, as there was no specific provision for it. If I did cams, HFM, intake and exhaust, they would have no problem covering me. If the cost of the supercharger itself did not almost rival the initial purchase value of the car, they would have no problem covering me. But since this wasn't the case, they DID have a beef with it. The exact question I was asked by a case specialist was "Why do you need that much horsepower?!" Why should that even be relevant? I could buy a Z06 and they would insure that, but not my car. Just because there isn't an exact clause for this type of modification doesn't mean a lot is left up to the interpretation of the insurance adjuster. I could very well have never reported my upgrades and have an adjuster assigned to my case that would have written a full $25,000 check for the full value of the car should I ever total it. But that depends on the adjuster's interpretation of the policy at hand since there is NO specific clause regarding this type of modification. I went line item by line item with state farm corporate and my local agent on a conference call and he even disagreed, but then again corporate feeds his kids and it's not his decision.

Progressive has a very specific provision on this type of vehicle if it is insured to a stated value, and after talking with multiple adjusters about this situation independently they all confirmed that my mods would most definitely be covered. But at a premium of course. No room for interpretation since there is specific language regarding "aftermarket modifications that significantly increase the vehicle's market value".

I talked to state farm corporate and asked them what would have happened should I total my car and wanted the full aftermarket value of my car. He said they would've given me the cost of basically the blue book value of the car. Some of the modifications like stereo would be covered up to about $1500, and I could get some money for my suspension work although doubtful because it is considered "maintenance". Snowball's chance in hell that they would've paid for the supercharger.

Thanks Adjuster.

Do you think it inevitable that all companies will exclude DEs? I'm guessing the insurance industry operates under a 'pack mentality'; some more aggressive with such exclusions but eventually all of them making it to the watering hole.


ok.. take two....


I suppose over the next 5-10 years this is possible.. but I really don't see it happening quickly... if at all.. As it is.. there are some motorports insurance companies out there that are coming on line to fill the gap in any case...

http://www.capcoverage.com/motorsports.html Provided by Davis Rieman, BMW CCA member and a sponsor of BMW CCA Club Racing


there are others I can't think of right now..

At any rate... here in TX, each insurer will have to apply with the Texas TDI to have their own policy form authorized for use. This is an arduous process, as the Texas Department of Insurance is of course, a government entity... So.. the question is.. what insurers really want to spend the time and hassle to get their own policy approved... Let's review HOW it came about that companies CAN apply for their own policy...

A short 5-10 years ago, mold claims became VERY prolific. As it turns out, the TDI issued homeowner's policy form covered mold losses.. Insurance policies in 46-49 of the other states DON'T cover mold.. However... Texas is Texas and insurance companies were spending MILLIONS on mold claims that they never anticipated. Insurance companies attempted to raise their rates.. The TDI resisted or denied the increases... Insurers then realized that they faced insolvency if drastic measures were not taken. Several companies pulled out of Texas, and others stopped writing new business. The TDI realized they would have a real insurance crisis if no one was going to write insurance coverages for homes in TX and at that time relaxed their laws and decided to allow insurers to submit their own policy forms.

See http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/consumer/cb025.html

Ok.. so... back to present day... Why would an insurer want to submit their own amended forms? Two big reasons are
1) to save money from paying certain types of losses,
2) to have consistency among their policy forms in as many states as possible, making it easier for claims and their oen legal personnel.

Is there serious $$$ to be saved by excluding motorsports activities? To be honest... in my opinion... NO... not really.. not in
the big picture.. However.. I would think that this is something each company will decide individually, especially when weighing
against the procedure/hassle/expense of writing the new policy, having legal people approve it, and then having the TDI review
it and request changes or whatever is needed for them to approve it vs the perceived savings.... I would think the BIGGEST
companies (SF, Farmers, Allstate, Nationwide) will probably not even mess with the hassle as there are " bigger fish to fry"
as well as the fact that motorsports losses are a small # of their overall claims. The smaller companies (Amica, Grubb, AIG, etc)
would probably not want to invest the time and or $$$.. The medium sized more conservative companies GEICO, USAA, Progressive,
might actually find it worthwhile... Of course this is all conjecture and my own personal opinion..

now since i'm force inducted state farm will not cover me at all, so i had to go to progressive,


I talked to state farm corporate and asked them what would have happened should I total my car and wanted the full aftermarket value of my car. He said they would've given me the cost of basically the blue book value of the car. Some of the modifications like stereo would be covered up to about $1500, and I could get some money for my suspension work although doubtful because it is considered "maintenance". Snowball's chance in hell that they would've paid for the supercharger.

You went from saying State Farm wouldn't cover you at all because you have forced induction to now saying they will pay you for your car but not your supercharger. Since your premiums are based on an unmodified car, why would they pay you for something you aren't paying a premium on?

Borealliss.. to be honest.. it's really hard to follow your most recent post..
I can't tell you what you were told.. but I can tell you the following.

-The SF auto policy form is the same one as 98.8% of other insurers in TX.
Maybe Progressive is in that 1.2% ... I don't know.. i rather doubt it.

-If you have been a long time reader of Car and Driver, you would have read many years ago that SF insured (still insures?) a twin turbocharged NITRO METHANE fueled Ferrari F40 that was done by Bob Norwood of Norwood peformance. (subsequently moved to Utah) . Highly modded.. uh,... YEAH!
It put down a reported 1200 hp in the magazine and I personally saw that car dyno at some 982 hp at the rear wheels one day.

-I've personally handled losses to all manner of vehicles from clapped out cars with wheel and tire packages WELL in EXCESS of the value of the vehicle (read... 15K wheel and tire package) to luxury cars, sports cars,
show cars, highly modified T/As and Mustangs, to OE cars like the Ford GT, Porsche Carerra GT, etc...

It seems you were misinformed, or maybe someone simply wasn't going to allow themselves to be pinned down in a phone conversation with you. :nono

Personally... I don't know why you would be talking to someone at SF corporate (that's in Bloomiington Illiniois... were you calling Illinois?)
when the people that service your policy .. agency.. underwriting... and claims... are all right here in Texas.

I would recommend that you CLOSELY read your policy with Progressive.
I have seen instances where ACV (Actual Cash Value) was still a factor in the handling of the loss even on a Stated Value policy and the person was not paid the Stated Value amount because of this! :eyecrazy In addition, many Stated Value policies require an appraisal or policy review every so often... The typical apprasial is $150 to $250, and of course should be factored into your calculations when comparing premiums.

Aftermarket modifications ARE covered, certainly with SF, and I am sure other companies... whether or not their policy form reads " aftermarket modifications that significantly increase the vehicle's market value".

Just curious... who determines whether or not the mod "significantly increases the vehicles market value" on your policy anyway? :cool

-I've personally handled losses to all manner of vehicles from clapped out cars with wheel and tire packages WELL in EXCESS of the value of the vehicle (read... 15K wheel and tire package) to luxury cars, sports cars,
show cars, highly modified T/As and Mustangs, to OE cars like the Ford GT, Porsche Carerra GT, etc...


Were these cars covered with additional coverage or increased premiums for the increased value of the car?

I guess my question is lets say my 95 M3 becomes a full IP race car (sadly it isn't) that would cost around 25k to buy in todays market, but a regular 95 M3 would be more like 9k. Do I need to tell SF something about the increased value?

THIS IS SPECIFIC TO SF ...

Prior to March of this year, additional premium was charged for customization, currently, no additional premium is needed for customization. (Yes, that's the insurance company giving you MORE for your dollar folks!)

I STRONGLY recommend that the owner keep invoices and/or photos of all the modifications. Will be there some stress involved... Likely... Will you get dollar for dollar for your mods... NO. You don't get dollar for dollar if you mod the car and sell it that way right? Some people feel getting a stated value policy is the way to go to prevent having to negotiate or prove up the loss at the time of the tragedy.. and if you are that type.. then go that direction. Essentially one is pre-negotiating the total loss by using a stated value policy.

You went from saying State Farm wouldn't cover you at all because you have forced induction to now saying they will pay you for your car but not your supercharger. Since your premiums are based on an unmodified car, why would they pay you for something you aren't paying a premium on?

I've talked to corporate on more than one occasion regarding this, and I've been told both stories. My point here is that it is up to the interpretation of your policy by the adjuster that is handling your claim. The fact that I am getting inconsistent information, ranging from limited coverage to flat out disqualification, from state farm corporate is enough to tell me they are going to screw me over should I file a claim. Add to it the fact that my local agent had no clue corporate wouldn't cover it and you start to get the picture.

THIS IS SPECIFIC TO SF ...

Prior to March of this year, additional premium was charged for customization, currently, no additional premium is needed for customization. (Yes, that's the insurance company giving you MORE for your dollar folks!)

I STRONGLY recommend that the owner keep invoices and/or photos of all the modifications. Will be there some stress involved... Likely... Will you get dollar for dollar for your mods... NO. You don't get dollar for dollar if you mod the car and sell it that way right? Some people feel getting a stated value policy is the way to go to prevent having to negotiate or prove up the loss at the time of the tragedy.. and if you are that type.. then go that direction. Essentially one is pre-negotiating the total loss by using a stated value policy.

Again this pertains to "light" modifications like aftermarket exhaust, $1500 for a stereo system, wheels, etc... Almost doubling the HP output of a car is considered "extreme" and will not be covered under this, and will most likely get you disqualified. Part of this probably involves the statistic that most people who put turbos or superchargers on their cars race them and are therefore much higher risk.

Call Glenn Moore's office, he was my local SF agent and still handles my renter's insurance. He should know my case fairly well as I have gotten estimates recently from them for home owner's insurance and have inquired about any policy changes regarding my circumstance. I like their multi-line discount. Guess what, no change, and I'm still not qualified for automobile coverage!

M3 Adjuster you have a PM.

PM replied... would love to get back to the original post... Anyone here have a policy that has changed and added exclusions for motorsports coverage?