Yes this is my first post on your forum and I have been very impressed with everyone knowledge of M3's and I had a few lingering questions that I wanted to ask.

I would really love to build my M to be a powerful "Take no Prisoners" track car. (AutoX) But I am having trouble deciding what to do(with upgrades). I know that in autocross its all about your suspension/brakes.. But doesnt it have to do with how much power you have too (not too extreme) but enough to blast you from point to point. right?

If thats true then what about this set up for an autoX M.( AA's Supercharger in it with their chip,intake, Gen3 exhaust, and track pipe, and water/alcohol injection. Would that be a good start to a great track set up?

Also, does anyone know how good Tuners E36 suspension kit is? I mean for 4k that isnt that bad of a set up.. Let me know if anyone has experience with that kit or if this set up is worth it. Also.. Would it be just as good if not better to go with the turbo set up? Let me know. Thanks. :help

for the suspension end with the . They are one of the best in the biz.
http://www.ground-control.com/

Of course there is Morton, Bilstens, Konis, etc.

Also read up on Bimmer Haus' site. The king of the autocross world. Lots of great information from, setup to suspension to power.
http://www.bimmerhaus.com/


Good luck!:evil2 :evil2

I have heard on other forums and this one that GC is the best but their suspension systems dont seem to come with everything that the World Class E36 Suspension set up comes with from Turner. Let me know if what they offer are any good for the price/performance. Also any posts about the power side of the thread would be greatly appreciated.



-Bilstein Group N front struts -- direct bolt-on (no cutting, welding, or modifying the stock struts) with a threaded body to allow easy adjustment of ride height; length and rate specifically set to our specs

-Bilstein Group N rear shocks -- bolts on to stock location and upper shock mount location; length and rate specifically set to our specs

-H&R race springs -- 60mm inside diameter springs for coil overs available in many lengths and rates Turner Motorsport swaybars -- new from TMS is a set of adjustable swaybars measuring 27mm in the front and 24mm in the rear.

-Turner Motorsport adjustable front camber plates -- adjustable racing camber plates for 60mm springs; uses a solid spherical bearing bushing

-World Challenge suspension mount kit -- aluminum front spring seats and hats, aluminum rear spring hats

-Aluminum rear shock mounts with a solid (no play) bearing

-Rear ride height adjusters -- aluminum rear spring seats with a threaded center to allow easy adjustment of ride height

-Adjustable front swaybar link and a standard front swaybar link

-Reinforcement kits -- front subframe and rear swaybar mount reinforcements to strengthen weak points on the chassis

-Solid rear trailing arm bushings

-Aluminum front control arms

-Delrin front control arm bushings -- reduces compliance and eliminates unwanted alignment changes

-Aluminum rear camber arms -- aluminum lower control arms with ball-jointed ends for camber adjustment

-Delrin and aluminum differential mounts

-BMW Motorsport x-brace chassis reinforcement

All for $4,529.00 But that comes with EVERYTHING.. Good buy?


:help

The key to auto-xing is not to do everything that you can possible do to a car, but do what works. I think that package you are looking at is over kill for an auto-x car, but for club racing on a race track it would be great.

What kind of experience do you have in auto-xing???? (you could be a national level competitor or a newbie out for the first time for all I know) Driver skill is the biggest factor and not how much money you spent on a car.

I would say that GC would be your best bet. THey have a lot of cars equiped at the national level for auto-xing.

:)

If you want to be competetive in AutoX, you have the wrong car, unless you add a supercharger and run SM class.

I am a newbie driver, and I just want to get a set up that handles the best I can get. I am going to spend the summer going to driving schools.. So in the near future my skills will become much better.. I want to also get into track racing though.. so would that kit allow me to do both extremly well?

And what car should I have.. A 98 M3 Coupe isnt good enough?

First of all, as a newbie driver, you really aren't going to be competitive against the big dogs no matter what you drive, or how much money you throw at your car. The only thing that's going to make you competitive is practice.

E36M3s handle well enough for a beginner. They're easy to drive, and can be competitive in the right hands, even bone stock. As a beginner, you really don't want to go overboard with your modifications - mods may raise the ultimate limits of the car, but you have to be a pretty good driver to take advantage of those raised limits. For beginning drivers, the mods just make the car trickier and harder to control. For example, if you jumped into one of the cars that's been prepped to be competitive at a national level in an autox, my bet is that you'll either spin, or plow off the course on your runs.

Also, to tune a suspension, your driving needs to be at a certain level. You need to really understand what the car is doing, and whether something is a problem with the car or your driving. Otherwise, you're just twisting knobs and making excuses for your poor driving.

Now, about the Turner "kit" - it's really tempting to throw out a lot of money, thinking that all you have to do is bolt it on and you'll be instantly competitive. Not so. Looking at what's in Turner's kit, there are a number of problems for autox. It doesn't look like it's going to be tunable enough for autox - the shocks don't appear to be adjustable, which means that you'll have to send them in to get revalved every time you want to make a change. Which also means that you won't be able to adjust your shocks for each specific site, surface conditions, tire conditions, etc. If you change spring rates, you'll need to get the shocks revalved. Etc., etc., etc. Also, you need to look at all the pieces and see if they're legal for your class.

I have a difference of opinion with M3inSC - he feels that the E36M3 isn't competitive unless you supercharge it and run it in SM. I believe that the E36M3 is still competitive at a national level normally aspirated, in either SM or in BSP. Tunnell ran his in BSP at Nationals, and was still very competitive. A supercharged M3 won SM at Nationals last year, and Henry Hoeh did very well in his SC M3 also. However, I still think my normally aspirated car would have been in the hunt if Vic didn't have a really bad first day. Locally, Vic's normally aspirated M3, along with a few other normally aspirated M3's, have all been very competitive against the SC M3 that won Nationals...Plus, there's still a lot that could be done to make these cars even faster...

But the bottom line is that your 98M3 coupe is fine. Learn how to drive, first, then start in on the mods. Don't worry about being competitive - at this point, the car is far more capable than you are. Even if you spend every weekend this summer at the track, you still probably won't be close to using the full potential of your car.

Jim

Drive Drive Drive! That is the most important thing. Jim is on the money. Incidentally Jim, at the last outing that I attended, I spanked the times that the Bimmerhaus car put in, and I sucked that day ( yes I realize that their fast driver was out and that they hit a lot of cones, bt hey!)

Anywho, another comment regarding Turners "kit" Its really designed for road course racing in a race car. Race car means not a street car. Fine if you want to go that way, but you are talking about pouring 1/4 the value of the car into suspension and there is a high likelyhood that you wont be fast or happy.

So here's my $.02...Get an extra set of wheels. Run your stock wheels and STREET tires (Falken Azenis are a good bet) and run in Stock Novice classes your first season. Enjoy and learn the car. Then figure out what class you want to run in (BSP or SM) and decide how crazy you want to get. Good luck!

I have decided that stay stock. Thanks for all the info! I am going to just practice practice, practice. Does anyone know any good driver schools near DC? Any info would be greatly apprecaited! Thanks!

:clap:

Depending on your car's mileage, you might want to change the shocks tho, they go bad very quickly and for autox's shocks can make a big difference.

Just get a good coilover set up? That good? Let me know. Thanks again for some really good information!

Im interested in this too, i have almost 80k miles on the stock suspension, what would be a good upgrade if i want to start autoxing and trackin my car? Lots of people go with bilstein and H+R right? what about the pss's? I also heard the bavauto springs are a lot softer, but do they compromise much handling? And do i need new shock mounts? As much info as anyone can give us would be great. :D

To Sleeper and Madd;

Ditto the wisdom that both Jim O. and Eric L. offer above. Also, check the link for class info and some basic rules for SCCA sanctioned autox'ing. I can't speak to different classing that might apply to BMWCCA or obviously your non-scca local club(s).

FWIW, I've autox'ed for three years in a very competitive region, 1/2 year in SM with a 95 M3 w/ FI (now dead) and currently, a 95 M3 NA. I'm fortunate to have the resources that brings the current M3 to a nationally competitive prepared level (not withstanding the argument as to whether a NA M3 can compete vs FI in SM).

I can tell you that I've learned to leave my ego at home. Not being naturally gifted like my co-driver, it will take more time for me to "understand" the car, especially at it's current prep level, let alone the changing elements at each auto'x venue. There never seems to be enough runs or seat time.

http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/

On track, HPDE's are a great place to start. You'll learn it's not racing but car control at speed. Early on in M3's, you need be more concerned about tech'ing for safety than mods, except pads and brake fluid. If you take to the pucker factor that you'll experience going deep into a turn at 120+ mph (assuming you've earned the right to go 9/10th's), then you can head off to one of the sanctioned race schools.

With some experience in auto'x, HPDE and a racing school, you can make an informed decision where you take it from there. (As an example, I enjoyed the Russell race school at Infineon but personally don't see myself pursuing the wheel-to-wheel stuff.)

Good luck.

http://a9.cpimg.com/image/AF/AA/12536239-83b9-02000180-.jpg

M3Sleep.... you are getting good advice from all that suggest practice first. I have beaten 996 TTs and SC M3 with my station wagon (not that that's what I regularly run at autoX, I usually drive an MCoupe, but in the winter when it's cold and wet...) anyhow the point is that the car is secondary until you learn enough to get all the potential out of what ever you happen to drive. This is not easy, cars are very good these days. But eventually you will see that all your runs are in the same 3 tenths and you are in the top 5 overall times at the events.... that would be a good time to start to think about small mods.
One thing that I have seen alot of is guys coming to autoX with a car set up for the track, here in the NY area or venues are not exactly smooth as glass and a lowered stiff car becomes a real difficult beast to drive. Someone mentioned Henry Hoeh's SC 3.0 M3 before, that car is a beast, stiff, low, lots of torque.... really it takes someone with Henry's considerable skills to get the most out of it.

but I blab..... Mark Sipe put it very well in this oldie but goodie post:
http://patriot.net/~m3/uuc/howto/suspensn.html

Originally posted by AC Coupe
I have beaten 996 TTs and SC M3 with my station wagon
Yea, right! :orangesle

that's rude.....dude!

class C (5th overall time)
http://themclub.net/mclub_020203WX.htm
http://themclub.net/edit020203wx.htm

class C (4th overall time)
http://themclub.net/mclub_01.12.03WX.htm

clearly it's not the national tour....but it illustrates my point

:devillook :nono

I am going to stick with stock and maybe upgrade to some better brakes (euro flotters) and Axxis brake pads (street/track) Ultimates. maybe braided brake lines and better brake fuild. Other than that I am going to keeep it stock. I am thinking about getting into the National Capital Chapter Driver School in April and doign their highway saftey class, and high performance class. both of which will teach me alot and allow myself to learn even more about my car. There are a few.. littl auto x in my town.. Locally held.. Just mess around kinda things that I might try. after driving school I was thinking about the x-brace and Dinans stage 3 suspension kit.. Would that be a good choice or no? Thanks again for all the info. :buttrock

While I am as far from an expert as I could possibly be, I do have a season of auto-xing my 97 M3/2 under my belt. I agree that the car needs very very few mods to begin with. On a local level, I am certain that you can be very competitive in a stock M3. By the end of my first season I was posting comparable times with people who had been auto-xing for years.

If you want some good advice call Bob Tunnell at Bimmerhaus. He is one of the top M3 auto-xers in the country. And as far as making any massive upgrades to your brakes, look at the changes Bob made to his car for nationals. (it is a very minor change)

Bob Tunnell's BSP setup for auto-xing (http://www.tunnellracing.com/M3toBSP.html)

M3Sleeper,

I only have eight years of autocross experience, and this will be my first year in my M3, so I still consider myself a relative auto-x newbie. I'm in the MD/NoVA/DC area and will be heading to as many of the DC-local SCCA and BMWCCA events as possible.

If you want someone to walk the course with, feel free to look for me at the first event. I'll be driving a Dakar '95, probably on street tires :confused: (unless I can find a cheap set of 17x7.5s before the season starts).

IMHO I would stay completely stock for the time being. I'm going to. I realize I won't be competetive on a national level competing in BStock, but it's still possible to have fun!

John V