Now, after doing some more research and taking people's advice (thanks to those that gave it). I have a question.

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/newstore.php?m=12&sub=383#702

As you can see one belt costs $224.95:complain ... whereas, the other belts below cost $156. Now, what exactly is the difference b/w these two BELTS OTHER than the fact that I can use the seat belt clips for the bmw ones?

A couple of my Audi S4 friends recommended them highly. They said it makes a difference at VIR, and other more twisty roads. Anyone use these here without a roll cage (p.s. - you do not need to reiterate the dangers ;). Are they REALLY worth the amount??

They are great for auto-x. There is no big difference. You pay for the convenience of the clips. IMO,the clips are worth it if you do not want to use or have the harness in the car all the time.

Thanks BJO -- I can pick up the non-bmw ones for $110 new -- but, no discount for the bmw ones. I'll have to think about the convenience portion...

I use the scroth clipin/out harness for auto-x only and love it. The convenience along is well worth it, plus you stay put in your seat and do not have to brace yourself like usual.

The clip in feature is awesome. I really like mine. I shaved over a second a lap when I started using them (by my highly accurate Timex :))

I use the clip-in/clip-out harness for auto-x and think it's great, less that one minute to install and really holds you in the seat...

I've got ther version without the clips. The new version was not available at the time. The installation of the original version is much more complicated and you need to leave the harness in the car. I would go with the new version, the ease of installation covers the cost difference!

I have the non-slip in versions. They are not a big deal. There is still a clip between teh shoulder harness and the harness that mounts to th rear seatbelt mounts.

You can unclip that, and flip the harness over the seat, then under the front seat out of the way. If the yoke in the back seat is a big problem, it can be tucked into the slot between the rear seat back and seat cushions.

BTW the E46 M3 has the rear mounting points already installed, it turns out the non-slip in style are a dealer installed option in Germany. :)

The harnesses are awesome. I got a set, haven't been to the track yet, but even on the road, they're pheonomenal! If you're going to track the car, I def. recommend it. I've read up on all the posts that suggest having harnesses w/o a roll cage isn't a good idea. But in my opinion, I think the added control from not slipping around is well worth the risk of me rolling over.

Also, I know of two separate sellers selling these for less than 300 bucks for the set of two. Get your act togehter and pick them up man!! You're not going to regret it.

Oh, as for the clip in / clip out feature, its great. Installing them is a joke, you just clip in, and one of the attachment points you have to take off a bolt. And to take them out, its even easier. So much easier than having to worry about actually having to install the bolt points. Quit thinking and get them off people on the boards!

Can you pm me the price, or where to get both for under $300? If it was under $300, of course, but, I'm looking at hmsmotorsports' price of $224.95 EACH!. If I get these for $500, then I have to forego my aluminum radiator for awhile....

Well I went cheap and decided not to pay extra for the clip in/out feature. I have the Vader seats and due to their design, I can leave the harness clipped (as if I were wearing it) but the belt clip is right where the seat back and seat bottom meet. When sitting in the car I don't feel the belt clip. I actually like the look of the harness in the car when it is not being used.

Also, there is an adapter that you can buy for the harness that alows it to move just like the stock seat belt so you don't have to worry about an accident without a roll cage if you are concerned about that.

I have the Rallye 3's installed, and love them. I just unclip the tail strap and flip them over the seat and let them sit on the back floor. It probably takes less time then the clip in and out ones:)

another vote for the clip in/outs. IMHO, great for the auto'x venue otherwise it's a personal choice of head trauma on the track or bling bling on the streets.

http://a9.cpimg.com/image/AF/AA/12536239-8937-00800060-.jpg

So, for DE's it seems to be a thumbs down then unless I have the roll bar, whereas auto-x it seems to be okay? I think auto-x would be too stressful on my engine....

Auto-x more stressful than a DE on an engine, hmm... I do not think so. :confused:

Well, I use the Rallye 4s in my car, and never had an DE instructor NOT use them.

Originally posted by NoSoup4U
So, for DE's it seems to be a thumbs down then unless I have the roll bar, whereas auto-x it seems to be okay? I think auto-x would be too stressful on my engine....

It's not that clear. The use of harnesses w/o cage or at least a roll bar has been debated since the beginning of time. I even read a white paper on it.

Here's some discussion on the topic:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=42483&highlight=harness

Here's a related thread:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32243&highlight=harness

Originally posted by NoSoup4U
So, for DE's it seems to be a thumbs down then unless I have the roll bar, whereas auto-x it seems to be okay? I think auto-x would be too stressful on my engine....

Not correct! A harness is fine for DEs!

Sure, IF you get into a rollover, AND the top collapes, AND ...... you could have a problem.

But on the other hand, a harness lets you control your car MUCH better. A rollover is the least likely type of accident since we are not wheel to wheel racing. A harness will help immensely with the large majority of accidents that occur. Airbags are dangerous too in certain cases, but I'm not going to remove them from my car!

///Mracer -- I'm 90% sure that the auto-x would be to stressful for my setup. I think you guys stay in 2nd-third gear pretty much at higher rpm's ... I don't want to take the chance of blowing something.

Thanks guys for your opinion. I've read all of the threads on the whole debate. It's kind of like the discussion we have in f/i, what's worse for the engine, superchargers or turbo systems. Positive and negatives to each one.

Is HMS motorsports the only ones that make a bolt-in cage? Does anyone just make a ROLL BAR for the E36 coupe?

Autopower makes a bolt in bar, and it's no where near as expensive as other ones. There are the skeptics about the bars.... where's the flames?

do and auto-x and a DE and see how much time you spend in the high revs for both and you might be surprised. I would love to find an auto-x that you can keep it in the high revs consistantly for 2nd gear.

They are both tons of fun and bmw's can take the punishment, so get out there and try both and you will be hooked.

:wave:

Originally posted by ///M3 2 NV
But on the other hand, a harness lets you control your car MUCH better.

Honestly, I take issue with that. Seems with a harness you'd just go faster and then the penalties are that much steeper when something does go wrong. It doesn't matter what kind of "control" you have when a tire blows at 115 mph through a turn.

A rollover is the least likely type of accident since we are not wheel to wheel racing. A harness will help immensely with the large majority of accidents that occur. Airbags are dangerous too in certain cases, but I'm not going to remove them from my car!

I don't have any stats, but I've seen three rollovers (at DE's and races) from simple offs where people slide a little off the track (10-15 feet), the tires dug in and the car rolled. The type of offs that happen all the time. Very, very, very rarely do I see wrecks where someone actually hits something.

The bottom line for me: I think the chances of surviving an impact wreck with a 3 point are very close to the chances of surviving an impact wreck wearing a 4 point. People survive wrecks every day on the highway with stock seatbelts. The same can't be said for a rollover.

Well... very few people have even rolled a car. And of those few people that have rolled a car, few if any of them will ever roll a car again. This is all percentages and statistics.

So since I've rolled a car, most likely I'll never roll a car again...:devillook

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Honestly, I take issue with that. Seems with a harness you'd just go faster and then the penalties are that much steeper when something does go wrong. It doesn't matter what kind of "control" you have when a tire blows at 115 mph through a turn.
.

And I take issue with that.

115 mph into a left hand sweeper under control with your ass in the seat safely vs. 100 mph white knuckled with your knees against the tranny tunnel for leverage, I'll pick the former any day.

In all the 1,000's of miles (probably 10,000's of miles if not more as you add up all the cars on track in one weekend at club races and DEs) I've seen of cars on the track, including on Kumhos, Hoo Hoos, Toyos, streets, I've yet to see a high speed blowout.

And, the ones I've heard of were due to corded tires that the driver refused not to drive on.

Finally, of the handful that I've known of that have blown tires on track, none have flipped. Have you ever seen/heard of a car on track blow a tire and roll?