For those into Autocross, what do you think of the M3's chances nationally against the EVO IXs and WRX STIs in Street Touring (STU) ?

I think the AWD cars are already making about 300whp, vs. our 200whp. We can't even run a larger HFM, but yet there is no way to police boost levels on their cars. Not to complain about the rules, but......oh well.

Just wondering what people thought about this. There is now a fast EVO in our area with a fast driver who is putting on some serious pressure. I want to go to Nationals this year, but I don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.

interested as well...

IMO, no we aren't competitive in STU. Having said that, I did beat a very lightly modded Evo last year in my region, but the driver was just a little less experienced. Nationaly, no way.

This past weekend I did a local auto-x and the EVO's were a good 3-4 seconds faster. AWD and instant boost is a great advantage.

I want to go to Nationals this year, but I don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Then go. What caliber of vehicle you bring probably won't have a whole lot to do with how you end up placing. That's not a dig, it's just very difficult to go out there your first year and do well. Hell, it's hard to go out there regardless of how many times you go, and do well.

Personally, I do think the E36 (and moreso, the RX-8) are competitive STU cars. But the lemming phenomenon will probably lead to fewer and fewer of them showing up at nats.

Then go. What caliber of vehicle you bring probably won't have a whole lot to do with how you end up placing. That's not a dig, it's just very difficult to go out there your first year and do well. Hell, it's hard to go out there regardless of how many times you go, and do well.

Personally, I do think the E36 (and moreso, the RX-8) are competitive STU cars. But the lemming phenomenon will probably lead to fewer and fewer of them showing up at nats.

I plan to go. Your probably right that Nationals is a whole different challenge. But I don't want to make the discussion about me, I want to know what others think about the future of the E36 M3 in STU. Is this a car to continue to develop for the class?

If I were going to build a car for STU, it wouldn't be an M3. Both the Evo / STi and RX-8 have distinct advantages over the M3 that I think will be pretty hard to overcome.

The M3's biggest advantage, IMO, is that it's incredibly easy to drive fast. But it's much heavier than an RX-8 and down on power compared to the AWD cars. And at Topeka, that AWD will probably be the undoing of the M3 and RX8.

From this year's autox championship, EVOs, STIs, and Clios have raped every BMW out there. This is the first year we had such a big BMW turn out, but there's only so much you can do to a BMW to compete against JDM in autox. Unless, and this is my personal $0.2, you go all out on your BMW; strip it, flywheel + clutch, slicks, aerodynamics package, etc....THEN I think we'll be in par with them, given your expertise as a driver.

As said earlier, these cars have an advantage being what they are as AWD and turbo with track-oriented suspensions etc..

Maybe one day they'll move the e36 M3 into DS/STX. If you look at the performance, power/weight, etc of cars in those classes (ie. 330ci, WRX, ITR) they seem a lot more comparable to that of e36 M3s.

Also, why are the e46 M3s not eligible for STU again?

The OP is talking about a very specific Solo class here. There are allowances to help the RWD cars keep pace with the AWD cars. Probably quite different from what you're used to in the UAE.

I think that the M3 can be competitive on the right course. Airport courses that are "transition down, sweeper, transition back" play to its strengths. Tight courses that require you to slow down a lot and then power out of turns obviously don't favor the lower-powered M3.

Personally, I think even the RX-8 is going to start having a little trouble. The next iterations of the EVO and STi look even more frightening to me; The EVO finally gets it's active diff, and I believe the STi is not only a few pounds lighter than the current model, but also has a revised rear suspension (multi-link, not struts anymore) and that certainly wont hurt it. You MIGHT be able to pull a win out of your butt in an M3 if you have supernatural driving skills and very nice shocks, but it isn't the ideal platform for STU.

- Bret

As said earlier, these cars have an advantage being what they are as AWD and turbo with track-oriented suspensions etc..

AWD? Sure, especially with the current national venue. Turbo? Yeah, the ST rules do favor turbos. Track-oriented suspensions? On the Evo and STi??? Eh? They have TERRIBLE suspensions for road racing and autocrossing. The suspension design is meant for rallying, not road racing. Lots of travel, soft springs, Struts; These are not pluses when you are on tarmac. And that doesn't even take into account Subaru's apparent hatred of caster. You can certainly improve the suspension drastically in STU, but the basic suspension layout on the rally cars is NOT one of their advantages.

- Bret

Hmmm, am I crazy or are there two E36 M3s in the top three of the STU class at nationals? I'll bet they had good drivers :)

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/Combined%20Nationals.pdf

I'm not sure where you guys are getting that the STi and Evos are far superior.

Rob

AWD? Sure, especially with the current national venue. Turbo? Yeah, the ST rules do favor turbos. Track-oriented suspensions? On the Evo and STi??? Eh? They have TERRIBLE suspensions for road racing and autocrossing. The suspension design is meant for rallying, not road racing. Lots of travel, soft springs, Struts; These are not pluses when you are on tarmac. And that doesn't even take into account Subaru's apparent hatred of caster. You can certainly improve the suspension drastically in STU, but the basic suspension layout on the rally cars is NOT one of their advantages.

- Bret

Sir, I believe you are partially wrong here. The advertising may say they are rally bred, but by no means says they are ready for the dirt.

Evos, in fact, have a terrible suspension setup for rally. They do perform beautifully on the tarmac track. Strut in the front (very similar to the E36) and multi-link in the back. The STi has strut all the way around, which does seem to lend self better to long travel yet is still setup for tarmac from the factory. Heck most street cars are strut based, even the 911s.

Soft springs compared to other factory performance cars, not really. Valved for the dirt, not a chance. Where are you getting this info? It really seems the Bimmer guys are very misled about the STi/Evo setups. I've noticed this in multiple threads and don't mean to pick on you per say.

Define a "hatred of caster"? I know they would like a little more as does the E36, but you have to relocate the control arm pickup to do it properly like the E36. Lowing the STi is a very bad thing due to the roll center.

You are certainly correct that strut based suspension is inferior, yet all three cars in question have a strut based suspension in the front. Another thing to ponder is the Evo and STi have a superior chassis as far as strength and stiffness.

I guess my point is that you cannot say one way or another simply base on suspension design given they are all very similar. It's a far more complex discussion.

I used to own an '03 WRX and raced it in D-Stock and I've also driven STU STi's before. I also took my WRX out to a rallycross (I was pulling corn out of the car for a year after that), so I'm not pulling this out of my ass as a 'BMW guy', but someone who looked into FIXING the problems that my rally car had. In that all 3 of the cars you mentioned have struts up front, that is true, but that doesn't mean they are desirable. Also, for the record, I'm not in love with the struts on my 325 either. Working withing the ST rules meant compromises; I didn't get everything the way I wanted it. However, I was able to make it work better than my old WRX.

Can you make the suspension on an STI or EVO work? Sure, but it either takes significant geometry changes or some pretty big compromises. Since geometry isn't very adjustable in ST, that leaves compromises. Running 4 degrees of static camber because the suspension has such poor camber recovery and so little caster isn't a good thing. It may be workable, but it will cause other handling problems. BMW's have to make some of these same compromises because they have struts up front as well. I'm not saying BMW's struts are better than subaru's. I'm saying they are ALL less than ideal.

Oh, and the STEvo's do have fairly soft suspension setups stock (go drive a Mini if you don't believe me), but that is irrelevant in ST. What I was referring to was the suspension design, which is good at keeping the tire evenly loaded through large vertical changes, but is pretty poor at keeping the tire evenly loaded in roll. The RX-8 is pretty much just the opposite. Look, I'm not saying that you can't ever make an STEvo's suspension work. I'm saying that there are other cars whose suspensions you could make work better, especially in ST, and therefore it isn't an advantage. Having a turbo is an advantage in STU. Having AWD is an advantage in STU. The suspension design of the STi and Evo are not advantages in STU.

- Bret

I race with Terry Fair locally in Dallas. He's a fantastic driver and does amazing things with the Vorshlag STU car. They are in the process of tuning a new suspension right now but the car looks great. He's taken second at Nationals the last two years.

Hopefully he will chime in with his opinion of the boost buggies.

First of all, Mike Simanyi is holding his own in California against some big STEvos so I don't think M3s are out. We're actually testing our M3, two STIs, and an Evo all STU prepped, 3 of the 4 running custom valved ASTs. We have a DL-1 and last weekend swapped it around the cars. The results were very interesting although not surprising. A few highlights:

The M3 outbrakes everything consistently hitting -1.1g, the others are 0.8g
The M3 outhandles them in tight corners, 60% of your weight on the front hurts
The M3 slaloms well, but is really marginally better than a well set up STEvo

Of course the AWD cars pull 0.8g accelerating, the M3 0.4g. All three cars pulled about 1.1g lateral, three on fresh tires, one on year old hoopties.

So, is it out? If you consider our M3 only runs 255s and is WAY overweight for a M3, I'd say there's more left. We have prototype AST doubles on it now. 18x10 LTW5s with 265s are on the horizon. A diet might be happening for it as well. We'll see what the shocks do this weekend at the Houston Tour (a bumpy course).

Some anecdotal data. To make the Subaru handle, you have to wear a kidney belt to daily drive it, it is STIFF. The M3 in comparison rides like a Cadillac with 570/750 springs. The Evo, isn't really finished with prep, but it rides well on the street.

I guess the next question will be who won?

1. STI
2. M3
3. STI
4. Evo.

The STI won by 0.085s over Terry in the M3. I watched his run and he made a 2/10s mistake consistently that he knows he should have fixed. The boy likes to brake! So, are they close? I'd think so.

3 of the top 5 cars in STU for the 48 car field in 2006 = BMW M3. Of 7 running in the class. I think having more years under their belts the M3s were more sorted... and of course driven by Gods! :lol I just wish my co-driver Hanchey had been Ebola virus free this year, as he regularly beats me on the type of courses we saw at the '06 Nats, and still placed very well on Day 2 (sans vomiting). My wife beat ALL of the STU open field on Day 1, driving the same car in STU-L (putting 2.5 seconds on the STU Ladies that day on her way to a dominant STU-L win). These cars still have a shot. :)

The RX8 was and still is outclassed for STU. Its lighter (2700# for Sipe's to-infinity-and-beyond RX8 entry), can stuff a 275 mm tire with ease, and has the class leading (non-strut) suspension... but that rotary motor just doesn't cut it. We had an '05 RX8 that we sold after 11 painful, dealership warranty filled months. Under-freagin-whelming and it literally FALLS APART. Meaning: suspension parts fell off the car! Drove it on smooth roads like a grandma, too. :D

The STi and EVO are a hard package to beat with STU prep. 100-120+ more horsepower, and 2X as many drive wheels to use it all. On the HPT surface this is always going to be hard to beat, esp. at corner exit with a data verified .8g forward acceleration (vs the M3's .4g). The class is loaded with STEVOs for a reason, and they are becoming more serious and more sorted this year. Will we be able to take 2nd in an overweight M3 on 255mm tires at the 2007 Nats? Not a chance! :help

As Hanchey stated, we have to maximize the M3's strengths and minimize the weaknesses. And we're damn sure going to keep at it - I want to BEAT those boost buggies with a BMW, even if they DO have a massive rules/power/traction advantage! I wish it was easier to cheat with BMWs, but I think they'd notice a turbocharger under a BMW's hood.

M3's have got to minimize weight - 2900 to 2850# is attainable with a/c still installed. We added 80# from 2005 to 2006 by going back to the stock seats (don't ask). The exhaust is another good place to lose weight (but good luck finding much power there). Wheels, rotors (Euro M3), and coil-overs drop more pounds where it counts most, unsprung weight. We're pushing 2980# right now, which pains me, but some Sparco EVOs are on deck to go back in soon. What we need is a grip advantage...

With most of the STU prepped M3s still on only 255mm tires we don't have much if any grip advantage over the 245mm limited STEVOs. The DL1 data we've pulled form Nationally competitive / former trophying STEVOs tells us that. And yes, we're stacking the deck by sponsoring multiple STEVO entries, too... :cool

An 18x10 and 265/35/18 Yokohama or better yet BRIDGESTONE RE01R are the one big ticket to more M3 grip. Our D-Force 18x10 sets are inbound in ~2 weeks and we WILL post data here soon about the fitment and first event results with them installed. We've data logged most of the 26 events we ran last year, including about a dozen events worth of data from a similar-to-HPT surface (TMS Bus Lot), so we should immediately see any grip advantage. We'll keep you updated - we want to have more competitive M3s in STU for 2007! Our new AST double adjustables should also help us in that end (prototypes are working great).

The OP is talking about a very specific Solo class here. There are allowances to help the RWD cars keep pace with the AWD cars. Probably quite different from what you're used to in the UAE.

That's correct, the scene isn't much evolved yet. All cars are stupidly "equal"; I'm running a 328 vert that has an H&R Cup Kit with sway bars with all-out EVOs and STIs that pull 10 seconds in the 1/4 mile, not to mention the slicks, weight reduction, LSDs, coils, engine tweaks etc etc...If it wasn't for only gathering experience I would've been put off from before my first run!

What's an OP?? :D

You guys this thread is excellent, thanks for all the input...

I want to know what others think about the future of the E36 M3 in STU.

Limited, especially once they let the e46m3 in.

The RX8 was and still is outclassed for STU. Its lighter (2700# for Sipe's to-infinity-and-beyond RX8 entry), can stuff a 275 mm tire with ease, and has the class leading (non-strut) suspension... but that rotary motor just doesn't cut it. We had an '05 RX8 that we sold after 11 painful, dealership warranty filled months. Under-freagin-whelming and it literally FALLS APART. Meaning: suspension parts fell off the car! Drove it on smooth roads like a grandma, too. :D

Terry, with all due respect, you were doing something seriously wrong (user error) if you were having suspension parts "fall off" the car (RX-8). The RX-8 is just as beefy as an E36 in front and far stronger in the back. We beat the living sh!t out of a stock-class RX-8 for three years with nothing more than user-created problems (like a broken seat and a couple stripped wheel studs). That includes a bunch of runs at the warzones called Forbes and Peru. It is a durable car with three times the chassis stiffness of an E36. The chassis is infinitely superior to the E36 in geometry and strength.

It's down on engine torque - way down in stock form - but revs forever and is geared as such, so it actually puts quite a bit of torque to the wheels where it matters. Sipe's car is not down that much horsepower to an E36 prepped for the class, either. Being sub-2700lbs helps a lot too. Now that he seems to have solved his suspension binding issues, it should be an interesting year. The E36 and STi/Evo are so far behind in the suspension department compared to the RX-8 it's comical.

Personally, I think even the RX-8 is going to start having a little trouble. The next iterations of the EVO and STi look even more frightening to me; The EVO finally gets it's active diff, and I believe the STi is not only a few pounds lighter than the current model, but also has a revised rear suspension (multi-link, not struts anymore) and that certainly wont hurt it. You MIGHT be able to pull a win out of your butt in an M3 if you have supernatural driving skills and very nice shocks, but it isn't the ideal platform for STU.

- Bret

The RX-8 was never nationally competitive in STU, it's WAY underpowered even more than the M3. They can both be fast on a regional level but I don't think either one will win nationals anytime soon with most of the STU rally cars still improving. And I haven't had any issues with anything falling off my RX-8 and it's been autocrossed about a season in stock form and with konis and springs. If the car made 210 whp stock instead if 180 I think it'd be very competitive on a set of sticky 275s. I gave up and put R comps and springs on my RX-8 so it's just a non-competitive BSP car now but I don't care because I don't race SCCA :)

some interesting facts about RX-8. it seems exceptionally well built car rigidity wise.

http://www.carbodydesign.com/vehicles/mazda/2003-rx-8/2003-rx-8.html

look at the various cross members running across the roof and underbody.

Nah, the E36 M3 doesn't stand a chance. :evil2

Mike



PS Okay... maybe. :D We have one key advantage over the rally buggies: more tread. Do what you have to do to fit 265s on your car. DO NOT FLARE! The outside lip of your rear fenders needs to be completely vertical. Tune the crap out of your suspension and driving. Do the bushings, experiment with alignment, and lighten everything you legally can. It's not inexpensive but you can shave considerable weight.

you need to bring 265 neovas to the gun fight

Limited, especially once they let the e46m3 in.

E46 M3 I think would be competitive, but it is no overdog here. 2" wider, ~200 pounds heavier. Only has more power above 6500rpm over a S52. Minimal torque changes, BETTER gearing. That could be key. We will have one set up to STU rules soon and run the DL-1 on it. Then we'll write the SCCA and show the facts of why it should be in the class. They tabled it for now I'm told.

I feel if one can fit more wheel/tire... at least wheel anway it gives the M3 a fighting chance. However knowing a lot about Jake's car (fastest car 2nd day at nats '06) He's even faster this year with a few minor tweaks. I'll be going up against them on May 27th along with Branden in his STi (being sold soon I've heard)... albeit in a barely not BS legal car. My car has '97 front springs with swapped hats (more camber to make tires last longer) and a home built intake. Other than that, it is stock class legal down to the OEM DS1's w/ 235/40-17 Hankook RS2's also :(

E36 M3 in STU is an uphill battle for sure.

Driver is the most important factor. I still think any good driver in a well sorted and decently light M3 has a chance. Especially on a transition heavy course. We will see M3's cross the stage in '07 I can assure you that. How many will be interesting to see.


FWIW: Heck there are two modded EVO's in my region and I still manage to beat them as does my co-driver. Even when they were EVM's and put a mickey mouse 1st gear course together with minimal transitions :D



RE: E46 M3... I disagree, I think it will not only be an overdog in good hands, but will bascially leave only BSP for a car that is very popular in the sport. If you think they won't be an overdog, then how about you prove to the SCCA that the E36 M3 should be put in F Stock... lol talk about an overdog. Just my $0.02

RE: E46 M3... I disagree, I think it will not only be an overdog in good hands, but will bascially leave only BSP for a car that is very popular in the sport. If you think they won't be an overdog, then how about you prove to the SCCA that the E36 M3 should be put in F Stock... lol talk about an overdog. Just my $0.02

After riding with Tom Berry (Western Div) in his BSP Evo, I can't see any E46/E36 beating him.

If I were going to build a car for STU, it wouldn't be an M3. Both the Evo / STi and RX-8 have distinct advantages over the M3 that I think will be pretty hard to overcome.

The M3's biggest advantage, IMO, is that it's incredibly easy to drive fast. But it's much heavier than an RX-8 and down on power compared to the AWD cars. And at Topeka, that AWD will probably be the undoing of the M3 and RX8.


This is my experience as well in BS. I have been driving both my E36 M3 and my friend's Rx-8 half and half this season. The weight and updated suspension makes the e36 m3 a lot less competitve in BS. In STU, I think it has a much better chance.

The evo is another beast as well. I cannot believe how that car handles, and it being quite quick it is definitly the competition in STU.

The evo is another beast as well. I cannot believe how that car handles, and it being quite quick it is definitly the competition in STU.

The issue for both the Evo and STI is tires, but it's a bit worse for the Evo due to their FWD bias. I think the 245mm limit causes them to overheat the tires unless the driver is exceptionally careful. They get phenomenal launches and corner exits, though, and if it rains... well, the deck is stacked against us.

I'm hoping for a dry week in the mid-70s to mid-80s in Topeka. I give that about a 10% chance of happening in late September...

Mike

The BSP class gets rid of that limitation. Tom Berry was running 285x30-18 Hoosier A6s. believe me, he had plenty of grip. That ride along was truly a BRUTAL experience.

The BSP class gets rid of that limitation. Tom Berry was running 285x30-18 Hoosier A6s. believe me, he had plenty of grip. That ride along was truly a BRUTAL experience.

I race with Tom - well, lose to Tom in PAX. The car is impressive!

I was specifically discussing STU though, not BSP.

Mike

The BSP class gets rid of that limitation. Tom Berry was running 285x30-18 Hoosier A6s. believe me, he had plenty of grip. That ride along was truly a BRUTAL experience.

I've seen that car and it is NUTS, there's another local guy that's getting about to that level. Evo 8 with ohlins, 350+ whp in BSP trim, 285/30/18's on RPF1s. He puts about 2-3 seconds on a 100 second course on the local prepared E36 M3's.

First of all, please keep in mind that we are lax when it comes to enforcing the rules and we really aren't that competitive. We have some cars that are a bit illegal, but we aren't competing nationally and we are focusing on having a good time. The fellow in the STI is pretty much always faster than me and my friend, so we use him as a control. The 97 M3 is usually faster than us, but quite often not by much (even less when considering modifications). Through all the runs, my friend and I were just swapping seats.

Two events ago, we ran a tar-coated asphalt surface with three pivots (that is three different 1st gear downshifts in my Evo and only one 1st gear downshift in the M3s) for a total time of about 70 seconds. The surface offers the least amount of grip out of all of our venues. Note the huge time difference between the Evo and the M3s.

05 Evo RS (me + friend)
+10whp, downpipe, 7k/5k coilovers, 2-piece front rotors, on Prodrive 18x8.5 245/40/18 RT-615
72.351+2 70.696 70.633+2 69.923+DNF

'97 M3 (competitor alone)
fully STU prepped (and a bit beyond) on Kosei 17x8.5 255 RT-615s
74.654 73.799 72.337 72.745

'95 M3 (friend + me)
with Koni SA, front strut bar, exhaust, on SSR 17x8.5 245/40/17 RE-01R
75.488 73.587+4 72.792 72.619

Take the same drivers and go to a new asphalt surface with a total time of about 43 seconds. No issues putting power to the ground in the M3s this time. Staggered gates, slalom, sweeper, slalom, staggered gates, finish. My friend and I were learning the limits of the M3 on the slalom and dropping time as we learned (this is our first sort of serious year driving).

Same 97 M3 (competitor alone)
43.827 43.939 43.776 43.804 42.938

Same 95 M3 (friend + me)
44.308 48.888 44.327 43.565+2 43.672+2

Same 95 M3 (me + friend)
45.528+2 44.871+1 43.977+1 43.725+2 43.490+1

Same surface, second day out, course was basically reversed. We were driving my M3 this time. The extra 20mm of tire and 10-15mm track on my friend's 95 made a HUGE difference in front end grip through the slalom. We really missed it in my M3. The back was gripping more than the front through the slaloms and we were struggling to get the back end to "dance". Oh, and we also were taking the slow route through the second slalom compared to everybody else ><.

Same 97 M3 (competitor alone)
42.237+1 40.533 39.842+1 40.430 39.569+1

99 M3 (me + passenger)
with Bilstein Sport, front strut bar, x-brace (yeah, yeah), intake/exhaust on OEM Contours 225/45/17 245/40/17 RE-01R
43.900+1 42.119+1 41.703 40.757 41.044

Same 99 M3 (friend + passenger)
1.803+3 40.637+2 40.519+1 40.098+2 40.165+2

06 STI (different competitor alone)
anti-roll bars, 9k/7k coil-overs, on 17x9 245/45/17 RS-2
39.936 38.828+1 38.678+2 38.286 38.480

2001 2.5RS (nationally competitive friend, Billy Brooks)
fully STS prepped on 16x7.5 225 RS-2
38.911 39.369+1 39.502+1 38.883 39.001

I wanted to demonstrate how close my friend and I are when we are in the same car. The time difference in the first set of results is all vehicle. The driver of the 97 M3 is good, but the rest of the data is showing that our lesser prepared cars are almost keeping up, which demonstrates we aren't all that terrible. The 2.5RS is in there to show how our STU class is holding up against a national STS driver.

In another two weeks we will be out at Wendover driving ultra-grippy concrete and I will have some more comparisons between Evo, STI, and M3.

-Jon

The issue for both the Evo and STI is tires, but it's a bit worse for the Evo due to their FWD bias. I think the 245mm limit causes them to overheat the tires unless the driver is exceptionally careful.

The Evo may have a bit more weight on the nose, have a straight 50/50 power distribution, and just have an odd feeling of getting pulled around the corners, but the motor is inline with the front wheels, not in front of it like the STI and it has no problems rotating on or off throttle. Once I got some roll control, it drives a lot like an M does.

I'm sure the national guys don't have a problem with destroying their paint, but the M3 can't go to the tire limit easily. I could get to a 275 with the same amount of work it takes to get a 255/265 under the M3. The few M3 guys I've seen haven't and won't max out their tire size.

-Jon

RE: E46 M3... I disagree, I think it will not only be an overdog in good hands, but will bascially leave only BSP for a car that is very popular in the sport. If you think they won't be an overdog, then how about you prove to the SCCA that the E36 M3 should be put in F Stock... lol talk about an overdog. Just my $0.02

OK, in a few months I'll post the facts. We should have an E46 M3 with full AST suspension, wheels/tires and data acquisition to prove it.

Since the Pro was canceled, we rented Mineral Wells last weekend and ran an E36 M3, '06 Evo, '05 STi and a '07 STI. Weather was 70 degrees with a few downpours in the middle, so we even got some Topeka-like weather (minus the 40 degree rain part). :) All prepped above average to fairly extreme with Bridgestones and Yokohamas.

Based on what we saw, right now, I wouldn't put my money on any of them walking away with a win. They all have strengths. It just depends on race day. :) FYI, we're using timers, two data acquisition boxes, a radar gun, pyrometers, camber gauges, 60 acres of test courses and other toys to collect data.

Our next "pre Nationals" test session might have the E46 there. Once we get that data, we'll decide whether to write a letter "for" or "against" the E46 M3.

I dont really know anything about auto x and the classes, but I assume you couldn't put an S54, or a euro motor in an e36 M3 and still run scca solo stu?

correct, no motor swap is allowed in street touring classes like stu
imstimpy/jon, thanks for the report!

Since the Pro was canceled, we rented Mineral Wells last weekend and ran an E36 M3, '06 Evo, '05 STi and a '07 STI. Weather was 70 degrees with a few downpours in the middle, so we even got some Topeka-like weather (minus the 40 degree rain part). :) All prepped above average to fairly extreme with Bridgestones and Yokohamas.

Based on what we saw, right now, I wouldn't put my money on any of them walking away with a win. They all have strengths. It just depends on race day. :) FYI, we're using timers, two data acquisition boxes, a radar gun, pyrometers, camber gauges, 60 acres of test courses and other toys to collect data.

Our next "pre Nationals" test session might have the E46 there. Once we get that data, we'll decide whether to write a letter "for" or "against" the E46 M3.
Yea, this was a damn good test day. With four prepped/competitive STU cars on hand, 100+ runs, and lots of "driver equalization" (car swapping) we got some great data. We now know which tires pull what g's, and how close the EVO/STi/E36M3 are against each other over a variety of elements.

Pictures: http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2911004#P-1-15

The suspension design is meant for rallying, not road racing. Lots of travel, soft springs, Struts; These are not pluses when you are on tarmac. And that doesn't even take into account Subaru's apparent hatred of caster. You can certainly improve the suspension drastically in STU, but the basic suspension layout on the rally cars is NOT one of their advantages.

- Bret

Springs can be made stiffer, travel can be reduced. Do you fell ~6° positive caster is bad? That's what I got out of my WRX in STX, RS in STS and have seen STi's obtain easily.

Springs can be made stiffer, travel can be reduced. Do you fell ~6° positive caster is bad? That's what I got out of my WRX in STX, RS in STS and have seen STi's obtain easily.

Not to mention the front suspension is almost a copy of the BMW. I guess that isn't totally fair. There are only a few ways to do a strut, they just happen to use the same general layout.

At a school last week there was a fresh Evo IX with a full Ohlins suspension and power mods on brand new shaved RE01Rs. It was my first time driving the Evo IX, but it really felt a lot better under power than the VIII. Suspension worked great, and it was just a fun, fast car.

BUT, there was also a cherry 4 door M3, with fresh 255 Yoks, TCK coilovers, and camber. NO power mods. I rode with him but didn't get a chance to drive it. Lee Piccione did, and was only .2 seconds off of me in the Evo. The M3 felt better under braking, in transitions, and even on corner exit in a lot of ways. It's just a much more dynamic and easy car to drive.

This proves nothing of course, as neither were fully prepped - they were similarly prepped with a similar power difference to an all-out example vs. an all-out example. My gut says they're pretty damn even. I'd still give an edge to the new Evo, but the M3 can keep up pretty damn well.

Not sure if I missed this elsewhere, but: http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/20070512.php

I'm all for the E46 M3 in STU.. I've been thinking that would be fun to try for awhile now.

(And Scott, go to Nationals, car is irrelevant)

Springs can be made stiffer, travel can be reduced. Do you fell ~6° positive caster is bad? That's what I got out of my WRX in STX, RS in STS and have seen STi's obtain easily.

Yes, springs can be made stiffer and I'm sure pretty much everyone in every car in STU does just that. You could reduce shock travel, but I would much rather keep the travel and just lower the CG (ride height would be the easiest way to do this.) Is 6 degrees of caster bad? I don't know, does that get you enough dynamic camber to keep the tire evenly loaded at max lateral G's? How much static camber do you have to run at the same time? My guess is that it must be at least close to sufficient since folks can get these cars turning pretty fast.

Once again, my point was that the suspension on an STi or an Evo isn't an advantage in STU. I didn't say you couldn't improve it or that it would STILL suck when you get it set up. I'm saying that it isn't an advantage. This means that anything you can do, most of the other cars can do as well, and more importantly, many other cars can use the same allowances more effectively and with less compromises. In case anyone is confused I LIKE RALLY CARS. I have driven them and they are loads of fun. I seriously considered another WRX or STi when the BMW got pulled off of DD duty. They are fast and fun, but the suspension is something to be overcome, not something to lust after!

- Bret

Springs can be made stiffer, travel can be reduced. Do you fell ~6° positive caster is bad? That's what I got out of my WRX in STX, RS in STS and have seen STi's obtain easily.
Agreed. We are developing a shock/spring/camber plate set-up for an STi (and another for an EVO) with bone crushing spring rates. This of course reduces their tendency to pitch and lean dramatically. The STEVOs' 60% front weight bias is never going away (they will likely always wear front tires prematurely) but get the car stiff enough and it won't be a big factor.

With enough camber, spring and development time, these cars can be made to "handle" well enough on tarmac. We've tested with 1.29 g lateral grip (Bridgestone RE01Rs; saw 1.25g on old Yokohamas) and not much lost in slaloms to our M3. Forward acceleration on the STEVOs is DOUBLE that of our M3 (.8g vs .4g). Only place the M3 can consistently get time on them is under heavy braking (1.1 vs .8g) but we haven't played with the brakes on the STi yet - mushy and heavy. Brembo anchors beg for lighter rotors.

This past weekend one of our testers ('06 EVO) made 302 whp/280 wtq with a downpipe+catback and zero "tuning" (i.e. no added boost). One of our STi friends makes 320 whp with his "STU tune". And they can put down all of that power. STU prepped M3s typically make, what, 220-230 whp? We can't even do some of the mods other cars can in this class (MAF).

Long story short - These AWD turbo cars are a real threat to the M3 in STU. The E46 M3 would at least be closer in power, but with the added pounds and high rpm power band it might not be close enough.

We should have some lightweight 18x10 and 18x9 wheels to try on the bimmer shortly. I hope-hope-hope the 265/18 Bridgestones have a big payoff!

Still waiting... to see how the 18x10 with 265 RE01R fitting party goes...

Eager.

Still waiting... to see how the 18x10 with 265 RE01R fitting party goes...

Eager.

Allegedly they will be ready in a week.

ready as in tires mounted and test fitting starting or that the wheels will be done at the manufacture?

ready as in tires mounted and test fitting starting or that the wheels will be done at the manufacture?

Wheels will be shipped to us next week. We'll buy one tire to test fit. I'm sure we'll post tons of pics. :)

can't wait!

Still waiting... to see how the 18x10 with 265 RE01R fitting party goes...

Eager.

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/123706311-M.jpg

We've calculated the backspace with the 18x10 LTW5 and it's 43mm offset and it should work on a rolled fender E36. This is based on a similar backspace we used on 17x9.5" and 265mm tires we ran all of last year (255/40/17 AD07, which measured 265mm treadwidth, on custom CCW 17x9.5" wheels).

Predict 10mm spacer up front and none out back. That reminds me, I need to order the test tire 265/30/18 Bridgestone RE01R... I'm making that call now. Just ordered another set for our other STU car last week.

Any idea how the RE-01R compares to the AD07 in terms of tread width? Obviously manufacturer specs are available (which put the Yoko at almost 1/2 inch wider), but I wonder how accurate those are.

I'm also awaiting test results (or for the 18x10 to be on sale and I'll test 'em myself!)

How can the E36 be competitive when it's down nearly 100whp? I realize autox isn't all about hp, but that's a significant gap.

The theory is that it has better throttle steering (RWD), weight distribution (50/50), throttle response, and a tire advantage (30mm).

Vorshlag has also shown that the M3 can out-brake the rally cars. I like the feel of my Evos brakes, personally, but I don't have any data to say if the feel equates to better stopping.

I personally have a hell of a time going fast in the M. The Evo is harder to drive, but it goes faster easier. This may just be that my Evo's suspension is prepped pretty close to the rules of STU, whereas the Ms I am driving have 245s, aftermarket struts/shocks, and OE springs. It takes a lot of finesse to get fast in the M.

-Jon

correct, no motor swap is allowed in street touring classes like stu
imstimpy/jon, thanks for the report!

Minor addition to your response. The Euro-M3 motor swap would be illegal for SCCA Solo period.

As for the rest of this thread, Mike S. is a fellow BMWCCA-LA/SD instructor with me and used to instruct me over the past 5yrs, before I become one. And he really is on the cutting edge of MAXIMIZING the strengths of the M3 while minimizing the weakness (as someone mentioned). Here in our region (Cal Club), if it's a true auto-x course, meaning no long straights with tight 180 degree turns, and no rain, Mike's M3 will be on level with the top STU guy in our region ('06 SCCA-ProSolo Champ Max Hayter) in his 05 WRX STi.

And as someone else pointed out the top 5 guys in Nat's last year were in M3s. It gives us M3 owners hope and I like the challenge of being the supposed "underdog". Because it's all about the driver right?

Now the balance of giving the RWDs up to 275mm for is nice but what about giving us back MAF? And maybe CAMS? Give us a bone here. Because 100+ hp on the ST-EVOs is a pretty big hurdle. Again, for now, the results at Nat's have shown that a fully-prepped M3 with a top driver can keep the STEVOs honest.

As for the E46 M3 in STU? Yeah it'd be nice to have a ST class for it but I await the results of the experiment to see. I wouldn't mind but want to wait.

And yeah Tom Berry's (SoPac Division-Cal Club Region) BSP EVO is INSANE!

The Euro-M3 motor swap would be illegal for SCCA Solo period.
Is there a technicality in the rules that I'm missing? The Street Modified rules (16.1.D) state that engines from other markets are allowed.

GroovinPickle - we're talking Street Touring, not Street Modified... big difference. :D

As for the rest of this thread, Mike S. is a fellow BMWCCA-LA/SD instructor with me and used to instruct me over the past 5yrs, before I become one. And he really is on the cutting edge of MAXIMIZING the strengths of the M3 while minimizing the weakness (as someone mentioned). Here in our region (Cal Club), if it's a true auto-x course, meaning no long straights with tight 180 degree turns, and no rain, Mike's M3 will be on level with the top STU guy in our region ('06 SCCA-ProSolo Champ Max Hayter) in his 05 WRX STi.
Yes, with many qualifiers we are seeing the same thing in our region, also against other trophying driver's in prepped STis and EVOs. But it takes a lot of qualifiers... "The Perfect Course" :D

And as someone else pointed out the top 5 guys in Nat's last year were in M3s. It gives us M3 owners hope and I like the challenge of being the supposed "underdog". Because it's all about the driver right?
BMWs took 3 of the top 5 (of 48) in STU, and 1st wasn't one of them. Ask me how I know. I feel that the STEVOs were, as a group, less sorted than the (older and more sorted) M3s. That is changing rapidly, as we are seeing (and we are prepping/racing/testing one of each) first hand.

Now the balance of giving the RWDs up to 275mm for is nice but what about giving us back MAF? And maybe CAMS? Give us a bone here. Because 100+ hp on the ST-EVOs is a pretty big hurdle. Again, for now, the results at Nat's have shown that a fully-prepped M3 with a top driver can keep the STEVOs honest.
The "275 advantage" problem is twofold:

The M3 cannot fit a 275mm tire easily
There are no 275s available in the AD07 or RE01R that are short enough to work (we have a new 275/40/17 (http://www.vorshlag.com/forsale.php) for sale... you wanna buy it??)


Mike S has gone to great lengths to get the 265/35/18 Yokohama to work - expensive fender rolling, added camber and rear ride height, 18x9 wheels, etc. We are doing the same very soon on our M3, but using the 265/35/18 RE01R on the 18x10 D-Force wheel.

As for number 1 above, well, the STU rule on "fender rolling" is very grey, and we're going to push that to get the explicitly allowed tires to fit the M3. We think they are leaving the rule grey for a reason (that, and there are no factory specs for fender contours). I mean, hell, they can't even police boost levels, how are they going to rule against fender contours?? We think the wider tires will help some but its not going to be the magic bullet. We are still down 100+ hp and 2 more driven wheels to use all of that hp.

The other M3 advantages are becoming slimmer:

Brakes. I think the STEVOs have overly heavy brakes for Solo use, so-so pads, and a tad mushy pedal feel from the factory. Most STEVOs were probably running factory lines/pads/rotors. The M3 has a great set of brakes and with the lighter euro M3 rotors, good lines, better pads and fluid, they are rock solid (unless its a really fast course, then they can overheat). The STEVO drivers are wising up and I have driven some with brakes that feel as good as the M3. Yet the data logger shows them to not have the same peak gs under braking. Could be a FWD-weight-bias thing, I dunno...
Chassis weight. The STEVOs are a tick heavier in stock form, and fewer drivers have gone to the extremes to lower weight in them. With a ltw battery, seats, rotors, calipers, wheels, and coilovers they can dip under 3100 #. The lightest STU M3 at National (Mike N, no A/C '95) was 2900#. We have had our car at 2950 and as high as 3000 (seats). 200 pound advantage ain't gonna make up the .9 sec deficit I had to Brandon's STi over two days...

Throttle response? I have driven near stock Subarus that had some lag, but also other "tuned" cars that had instant throttle response... and a LOT more torque (330+ wtq). That advantage is just a tune away for the STEVOs.

Is there a balance problem with the cars in the class? Yes, there always has been, but luck/experience/several years more sorting has kept the M3 up near the front of the class. That is temporary unless some rules get tweaked. Again, with as well as some M3s placed the last two years no one wants to admit it. Is there a fix? Maybe. Give the M3 back its former "free intake tract" from throttle body to air filter... this would allow us to RE-add the HFMs and possibly even ditch the secondary throttle body (ASC equipped '96-99 models), which would be NICE. Wouldn't help a lot, but a little here and there... Cams?? That's a stretch, but hey, I'd do it if allowed! Still won't give me anywhere near 300 whp.

Also, limit the STEVOs to 225mm tires! :D (no, seriously...limit them to 225s)

My Evo weighed in at 3107 last time I checked it. This was before I put on my PF 2-piece rotors, but it was with my lighter BBS 17x8" wheels, coil-overs, and stock turbo-back exhaust (I think). It is an RS, so it starts with a weight advantage.

I haven't felt better brakes yet. I run the Evo with OEM Brembo pads (way too damn expensive to just buy, unfortunately). It creates a stiff pedal that takes a moderate amount of effort to really get the car stopping. It is perfect for modulation. No stainless lines yet. It doesn't have ABS. Again, I have no data to say if it actually stops any faster than the M3.

My M3 has pads, rotors, and stainless lines, but the pedal is still mushy. It has Axxis Ultimates that bite really fast and not really to my preference. I may be misremembering, but the M3 doesn't feel like it has much brake dive at all.

-Jon

My Evo weighed in at 3107 last time I checked it. This was before I put on my PF 2-piece rotors, but it was with my lighter BBS 17x8" wheels, coil-overs, and stock turbo-back exhaust (I think). It is an RS, so it starts with a weight advantage.

I haven't felt better brakes yet. I run the Evo with OEM Brembo pads (way too damn expensive to just buy, unfortunately). It creates a stiff pedal that takes a moderate amount of effort to really get the car stopping. It is perfect for modulation. No stainless lines yet. It doesn't have ABS. Again, I have no data to say if it actually stops any faster than the M3.

My M3 has pads, rotors, and stainless lines, but the pedal is still mushy. It has Axxis Ultimates that bite really fast and not really to my preference. I may be misremembering, but the M3 doesn't feel like it has much brake dive at all.

-Jon
Good data... 3107# for an RS. How much lighter were the 2-piece rotors? (assuming you weighed them both on an accurate scale) How much did they cost, if you don't mind me asking?

edit: great googily moogiliy!!!! http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46446 $699 for two lightweight stock replacement rotors?! That is insanely overpriced. (STi applicaiton)

GroovinPickle - we're talking Street Touring, not Street Modified... big difference. :D
NHbmw325I: Can you put a S54 or Euro motor in an STU M3?
everbruin: No, not in a Street Touring class.
jaramill: It wouldn't be legal for SCCA Solo period.
me: :conf

Good data... 3107# for an RS. How much lighter were the 2-piece rotors? (assuming you weighed them both on an accurate scale) How much did they cost, if you don't mind me asking?

edit: great googily moogiliy!!!! http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46446 $699 for two lightweight stock replacement rotors?! That is insanely overpriced. (STi applicaiton)

Stock, tracked Brembo front rotors: 21lbs
New Performance Friction front rotors: 17.8lbs

The rotors are normally $600 a set, like you said.

The same rotors with M3 fitment are $530. Whoever said the M3 has an expensive aftermarket is a liar.

-Jon

NHbmw325I: Can you put a S54 or Euro motor in an STU M3?
everbruin: No, not in a Street Touring class.
jaramill: It wouldn't be legal for SCCA Solo period.
me: :conf

I stand correct....GroovinPickle, is correct. Here's the official answer (http://www.scca.com/garage/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5339&PN=1) from Doug Gill of SCCA. See my post and his reply.

We just had our next event out at Wendover, Utah (WWII concrete). I'll just stick to the actual autocross on Sunday, since we didn't have official timing for our Saturday school.

I brought out the Evo this time and we co-drove it, leaving the 95 M parked in the lot. I left my good tires at home and brought my flat-spotted Hankooks along for some competition. These tires don't grip like the top dogs and have 5 track days, 5 autocrosses (including a school and many fun runs) and 3-5k miles and they only barely made it to the wear bars after this weekend. The Evo is suffering from some boost issue, preventing it from making the power it should see with the tune and exhaust, so power is basically stock as is the STI below.

The course was a high speed transition course with a slalom to a decreasing radius sweeper, through a bunch of staggers, through some stairs, some more staggers into a tiny slalom, into a sweeper, into a tiny slalom, then some staggers into the finish *phew*. The Evo went mid-way through 3rd gear in the back staggers before the second sweeper, was a bitch to slow down at that speed, then required brakes starting before crossing the lights due to how tight the finish was compared to the speeds carried. I can draw a picture if it helps, but the point here is that it was probably an M3 course.

05 Evo RS (me + Irish)
+10whp, downpipe, 7k/5k coilovers, 2-piece front rotors, on BBS 17x8 245/45/17 ultra heat-cycled RS-2
morning 62.216 58.708 57.925+1 58.796+1 57.421+1
afternoon 58.962 57.879 56.684+2 56.839

I wasn't carrying as much speed as I could have in the front slalom (the tail wasn't wagging everywhere like I was in the finishing section), I wasn't looking far enough ahead to keep my lines really tight through the staggers, but I feel damn good about my performance that day. I also kept up with an STS2 Miata running r-compounds who is usually pretty even with me on the street tires (if not a bit faster).

05 Evo RS (Irish + me)
morning 61.032+DNF 58.812 58.660+3 58.281+2 59.726+2
afternoon 60.653+4 58.244+1 57.431+5 57.642+1

This was the first time Irish had a full day in the Evo and the cone count shows. He was blowing gates because he was concentrating so hard on trying to get the car to do what he wanted. The conclusion we both came to is the Evo is really hard to drive and the lack of ABS makes it quite difficult to slow down. Oh, and both of us favor the feel of the Evo's brakes, even though we can't stop :p. There was enough speed in this course that those huge brakes were just radiating heat.

06 STI (competitor alone)
anti-roll bars, 9k/7k coil-overs, on 5Zigen 17x9 245/45/17 RS-2
morning 62.259 65.032 63.452+DNF 55.139+4 56.460+1
afternoon 54.605 55.193+2 54.567 54.614+1

I got rocked by 2 seconds by the STI who pretty much looked fast and smooth EVERYWHERE. He had 3rd PAX and 5th RAW, which he doesn't normally do. I think he just had the course nailed; he was only two seconds off of an SS Lotus that is normally top PAX and FTD. The car didn't look to be doing anything weird and I'm not sure if he has actually done an alignment after installing his coil-overs.

97 M3 (competitor alone)
fully STU prepped (and a bit beyond) on Kosei 17x8.5 255 RT-615s
morning 59.220+1 57.528+1 59.056+1 58.439+1 59.623+2
afternoon 57.454+3 58.130+1 60.527+1 57.562

This is the same guy that we can't beat with my own M3 or Irish's 95. I have to switch to the Evo to beat him handily (which I have done at the last two events I've taken the Evo to). I'm obviously not a national driver, nor is my friend, but a driver in an unfamiliar car was keeping up with that M. After going from the M to the Evo and back a couple times, I believe it takes a full event to get a handle on the Evo and then another event to start showing good times. You should have seen me enter the slalom hard and give the Evo's steering wheel a nice heavy M3 tug on my first run of the day.

-Jon

I'm going to show my BMW ignorance here by asking this question: Was A/C optional on any year E36 M3s besides the LTW (where it wasn't an option at all)? If anyone has read the July Fastrack you will know why I am asking this.

Mike

No, it was standard on all U.S. E36 M3s except the aformentioned LTW.

well that sucks for me.

well that sucks for me.

DC PRO Solo sucks for me, or any M3 trying to overcome the deficit at the start from an EVO or STI launch! :(

It remains to be seen if the M3 is still fast at a National Event. However, the M3 is really hurting in a Pro Solo format.

http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/DC%20Preliminary%20Results.pdf

Ha ha, what happened Mike?!? Corey is fast as nuts, thats what!

M3 in ProSolo = no chance. Well, maybe if you're racing against a mentally handicapped and legally blind STEVO driver. :(

(edit: but this is the last year we will have to worry about ProSolo, since it will be dead and gone next year. Its already half-dead, in ICU with a signed DNR...)

The jury is still out on the M3. We have some fast STis and EVOs locally (former trophiers) so we get to test against them often. Lately it has been a bit disappointing but we have some changes in store that might help the M3. A little. :confused

Corey was fast and the only power mod he's done to the car is a cat back. I don't think I could have gone faster in my M3 than I did in the Evo. The course was balls out except in 3 spots where you had to give it up and be patient. Danny's car has LOTS of room for improvement and I think I'll co-drive with him the rest of the year and try to help him sort it out. I'll still bring the M3 out to the AI events so I can see how its stacking up tho.

well that sucks for me.

Gang, one factor to consider for the A/C delete takeback is the timeline. The FastTrack wasn't posted properly and the time this takes effect is 2009.

Nonetheless, yeah - it still sucks.

Mike

(edit: but this is the last year we will have to worry about ProSolo, since it will be dead and gone next year. Its already half-dead, in ICU with a signed DNR...)

I hope you're wrong.

DC hit its entry cap a couple days after registration opened.

Toledo hit its entry cap already (though currently it is showing 228 people registered).

The Atlanta XX format is at its entry cap.

Doesn't sound like a dying format to me... :dunno:

I hope you're wrong.

DC hit its entry cap a couple days after registration opened.

Toledo hit its entry cap already (though currently it is showing 228 people registered).

The Atlanta XX format is at its entry cap.

Doesn't sound like a dying format to me... :dunno:
The letter from SCCA at the beginning of this year spelled out clearly that ProSolo attendance was dropping and "significant changes" were needed to revive it.

2007 Walnut Ridge was a faux-Pro solo.

2007 Dallas Pro Solo was cancelled abruptly, just weeks before it was to take place.

The timers/delays/fiascos at the ProSolos for the past 2+ years are well documented.

I got the same letter you did, Terry. But all this talk of declining attendance - I don't see it this year. I don't know what their metric for success is, but things seemed pretty healthy in DC this weekend.

The timers / delays / fiascos have been going on far longer than two years... that's nothing new. Again, in DC... didn't see it.

As for WR being a faux-Pro, I agree with you, but I'm willing to wait out these tough times if it means the Pro series gets to survive.

I was all excited to attend my first Pro this year in Utah, yet it is a single course format with marginal pre-registration and currently subject to cancellation...

-Jon

To bring this back on topic, these were taken from the STU prep thread on evolutionm.net

The car is working pretty good right now after I get it off the line. The suspension and alignment is just about where I want it... time to move on to the power department. 2.2 second 60' times just aren't going to cut it. I think I had a best 60' time of 2.1 secondsGotta get a downpipe and cat on the car and then maybe a tune.

SM was definately THE class to watch for EVO lovers. Mark Daddio was absolutely flying

Corey #89 STU

Corey is running Ohlins RT coil-overs, Volk CE28 wheels, Yokohama AD07s, and a cat-back with no tuning. There should be another 30-40whp/wtq with tuning. I wasn't there, but this is what I heard from my co-worker Billy Brooks. I think he said what size wheels, but I don't remember exactly.

Congrats to Corey, Adil, Mike and Dave! Top 4 STUs at ProSolo. All Evos. Not sure what Adil's 60ft times are but Mike and Dave are both in the 1.9's. I believe Scott on the M3 was round 2.2 - 2.3.

ProSolo is cool and I am totally hooked on the launch.

-Jon

2.2 second 60's in an AWD turbo?!
http://www.ticketspecialists.com/theater/images/driving-miss-daisy.jpg
:D

I remember a Subaru competitor at the '06 ProSolo here in Dallas was cutting 1.7 sec 60s on Yokohamas...

The problem I saw with all the Evos (STis didn't have this problem) is that they all bogged on the launch. There is some sort of rev limiter that takes hold when the car is not moving. Not sure if it is legal to remove that limiter in STU.

My slow-ass RWD poseur car was cutting 1.9s... :p

yup... EVO's have a 5k limiter when clutch is depressed and car is sitting. Works great for launching at rally-x, but not for solo.

stock STi's should pull 1.8's easy... on their stock wheel/tire combo.

John V... your 1.9's wouln't happen to be on r-comps now would they?

I took the M3 to the Pro in Atlanta days after STU was even announced as a class, so a while ago. :) This was the Pro that it rained 48 hours straight. There was a STI there that was pulling 1.8's with a RIVER going across the start line. 4 rooster tails. I thought I was at a swamp buggy race. It was very impressive.

I've worked as a starter at regional events recently. It is interesting to watch the EVOs and STis launch. The Evo spins the front wheels momentarily before the back wheels start to spin. I guess it takes a moment for the drive train to send the torque to the rear. There is less delay when the Subarus launch, and if I remember correctly, they will spin the rear tires before the fronts start to go. The Subarus launch much harder than the Evos do, you can see it as they leave the line.

Scott

with the adjustable center diff on the STi... one can really dial it in for Pro Solo launches.

Thoughts on the forthcoming 135i as an ST car? You can take care of the issues that will kill it in Stock: camber, weight, lsd.

with the adjustable center diff on the STi... one can really dial it in for Pro Solo launches.

Both the A Stock STi drivers at the DC Tour were running the car in "Auto" mode. Seems to work best when you let the computer do the fiddling.

Thoughts on the forthcoming 135i as an ST car? You can take care of the issues that will kill it in Stock: camber, weight, lsd.
Now you have my attention! The 135i with a LSD has some real potential. Do you think that engine will be offered at introduction of the 1 series, or later in the model cycle?

Thoughts on the forthcoming 135i as an ST car? You can take care of the issues that will kill it in Stock: camber, weight, lsd.

As was pointed out to me on a different forum, ST currently only allows a single turbo or supercharger, so the twin-turbo system would not be legal for any ST class.

- Bret

As was pointed out to me on a different forum, ST currently only allows a single turbo or supercharger, so the twin-turbo system would not be legal for any ST class.

- Bret
Rules can be changed.

As was pointed out to me on a different forum, ST currently only allows a single turbo or supercharger, so the twin-turbo system would not be legal for any ST class.

- Bret
300hp, 300tq, RWD, 3000-3100 pounds... its the closest thing to the AWD turbo cars in stats... so of course it won't be allowed into STU. That car has a BMW roundel on the front - a double strike against it. The SCCA Solo Events Board (SEB) hates BMWs and traditionally does not rule in their favor often/ever when it comes to classing and rules. Look for the 135i to be denied access into STU at least until 2009, but probably forever. :(

Single turbo, twin turbo, quad turbo - why does it matter? Look at the hp/tq/weight and it FITS THIS CLASS.

300hp, 300tq, RWD, 3000-3100 pounds... its the closest thing to the AWD turbo cars in stats... so of course it won't be allowed into STU. That car has a BMW roundel on the front - a double strike against it. The SCCA Solo Events Board (SEB) hates BMWs and traditionally does not rule in their favor often/ever when it comes to classing and rules. Look for the 135i to be denied access into STU at least until 2009, but probably forever. :(

Single turbo, twin turbo, quad turbo - why does it matter? Look at the hp/tq/weight and it FITS THIS CLASS.

I'm betting that it does not have an LSD though. Would that make it less competitive? All that power, but with 1 wheel peel?

STX/STU allow the addition of an aftermarket LSD.

I'm betting that it does not have an LSD though. Would that make it less competitive? All that power, but with 1 wheel peel?
LSD will not be a BMW option, but a legal STU class mod--if it makes into STU.

It does sometimes seem like SCCA autocross just isn't the right place to be if you feel the need to win with a BMW, but it seems like the club is warming up a little bit. I mean, I fully expected the E36's to be thrown out of DSP when they started winning, but they are still there. They even put out the proposal to re-class them into insignificance and DIDN'T pass it! Sure, it may still happen, but the fact that it didn't get pushed through instantly is progress!

The only thing I can figure is that someone high-up finally drove a 15-year-old BMW and realized that they are a blast to drive and really aren't that expensive any more. Of course newer models are still destined for obscurity until they loose about 75% of their resale value, but it's a start. At least we have it better than the Porsche folks; I think there is actually a rule that prohibits Porsche's from being allowed to win, no matter how old or slow they are.

- Bret

Rules can be changed.

Yes, but only if you drive a rally car *cough* 3-into-1 cat rule *cough*.

Let a brand-new $32K japanese car dominate? Sure! Let a $35k (guessing here) german car have a chance? Dear god no! No one could ever afford to race something like that! Hell, they won't even let the E46 M3 in and those may actually be cheaper used than a new 1'er when the 1 finally comes out!

- Bret

It does sometimes seem like SCCA autocross just isn't the right place to be if you feel the need to win with a BMW, but it seems like the club is warming up a little bit. I mean, I fully expected the E36's to be thrown out of DSP when they started winning, but they are still there. They even put out the proposal to re-class them into insignificance and DIDN'T pass it! Sure, it may still happen, but the fact that it didn't get pushed through instantly is progress!
That was a minor miracle, but the class was overwhemlingly filled with BMWs. It would have been too obvious if they kicked out 80% of the entrants to make way for a non-turbo Impreza dominated class. ;)

I liked the stickers on the back of several DSP BMWs at Nationals ":( Ask me about my "BSP" car :("

Let a brand-new $32K japanese car dominate? Sure! Let a $35k (guessing here) german car have a chance? Dear god no! No one could ever afford to race something like that! Hell, they won't even let the E46 M3 in and those may actually be cheaper used than a new 1'er when the 1 finally comes out!

- Bret
I have seen E46 M3s on the wholesale market for $21-25K... heck yea that's more affordable! :buttrock

You can easily spend $35K on an STi or EVO right now, too. Next year they are all new and cost will likely go up a tick.

You can easily spend $35K on an STi or EVO right now, too. Next year they are all new and cost will likely go up a tick.

The car to have, it would seem, is the 2006 Evolution SE which can be had for $34k. The older Evos either came with no mechanical diffs (2003-2004 all models), no aluminum roof (2003-2004 all models + 2005 GSR), no ABS (2004-2006 RS), a 6-speed (2005-2006 MR), or no MIVEC (2003-2005 all models). The RS gives the mechanical diffs and aluminum roof, but lacks the ABS. The MR gives the mechanical diffs, aluminum roof, and ABS but packs on another 65lbs. The SE grants the ABS with the aluminum roof without the weight penalty of the 6-speed. The MIVEC appears to be good for around 30-40 legal horsepower where the previous cars without MIVEC only make power with boost.

The lack of ABS in my 05 RS makes for some frustrating times wondering if the car is going to stop. That will obviously get better with practice but it is just about enough to want that 06 SE. The torque responsiveness below 5000 rpm and the prolonged power above 5000 rpm really demonstrates the power improvement had by MIVEC. I have driven both and have seen the dyno plots of both tuned and untuned motors.

I'm currently looking at purchasing an E46 that I will build in the spirit of STU rules. My target price-point is ~$35k. I think the extra weight and extra power of the E46 should put it about even with the E36. If I go the E46 route, I hope to offer some good data. The cost of the 245 tires sure make campaigning a rally car appealing, let alone the power and grip.

Next year should see the STi hatch coming in at the same weight with a bit more power. It will also have one minor little detail: multi-link rear suspension. The Evo will have a better weight bias, albeit plus 200-300lbs. Pretty much everything will be new on it but I'm not convinced it is for the better. It will have an aluminum block, intake and exhaust MIVEC, a firewall-side turbo and exhaust manifold, and only 6-speed manual or DSG. Finally, the entire AWD system will be electronically controlled with ACD, AYC, ASC, then "active" (whatever that means) brakes, steering, and suspension.

We can't hold our breath that anything will be done to help the M3. Look at the poor RX-8...

-Jon

Great post by Jon. Some additional data on the Evo IX is below, in an article I wrote after weighing all of the EVO IX variants.

http://www.vorshlag.com/images/btn_evoweights.jpg (http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_evoweights.php)

This tech article (http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_evoweights.php) details a day where we weighed 4 cars at a dealership and another at our shop which covered the range of 2006 Mitsubishi EVO models. This data was used by a friend to pick the EVO model he would use for racing the following season (dark gray car, below).

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/155127317-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/150942943-S.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/155116407-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/155117417-S.jpg

We began developing AST shocks as well as camber plates and some other bits for these cars several months ago. Not too surprisingly a lot of our former BMW clients have these cars now. BMW just doesn't make a car in this price range with this level of performance... yet. The 135i will get them back in the game, to an extent. Several classes heavily favor a turbo entry over a non-turbo, which has made a lot of people switch cars.

Jon - we need to talk about your E46 ideas. :)

SCCA Solo NEDIV Results from Warminster Park in Philly, PA July 7-8.

Here are the results: http://www.phillyscca.com/solo2/results/2007/SO070707FIN.HTM

Corey Ridgick and Mike Neary were missing in STU, but many of the fast boost buggies from the DC Pro were there, and the results were much different this time for the M3!

The first day was clearly advantage BMW. I held over a half second lead going into day two, but I'm pretty sure I had another full second out there. I made lots of mistakes.

The second day gave the EVOs and STis lots of room to run, as it was a HP course. All I could do was hold them off, I was 3/10 sec off the fastest car for the day. But still held on for almost a half second margin of victory for both days! :redspot

The surface was very grippy, so the M3 had a slight advantage. As long as there is grip, and no drag race start, I think the M3 is still strong!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/joenationwide/air_tiresized1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/joenationwide/wheelinair2sized1.jpg

congrats! stx surprised me; no fast wrx!?

Awesome result man, congrats...

congrats! stx surprised me; no fast wrx!?

You'll get an even bigger surprise at nats in STX out of a certain BMW... I can assure you of that.

Great job, Scott! Way to carry the BMW colors.

I wish I had the money to make mine a track car :( Im only 20 I got time :D I guess its all going to work out after all!! Keep Up the good work. :buttrock :buttrock:buttrock

Congrats! Great showing, Fight The Power!!!

(Wait... we're not the power, are we? They're the power... yeah. Fight the power! Damn the man! Awww shit, go fast!)

Brian:redspot

Small data point: With the new 18x10s and 265/35/18 AD07s (a pair of freebies from MikeS) on the rear and the old/tired/worn out 255/40/17 AD07s on 9s up front our STU prepped M3 kept pace with our STU STi at a tight parking lot event; I drove both cars at this event Saturday, made 4 runs each, alternating every 2 runs to equalize course memory and conditions. I was .1 sec quicker in the STi than the M3. STi was on fresh 245/40/17 RE01Rs and otherwise 95% fully prepared to the rules. The M3 still needs: racing seats installed (-80 pounds) and fresh 265/35/18 RE01Rs on 18x10s at all 4 corners.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/173417497-S.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/173400442-S.jpg
These pictures are of my wife Amy driving ('06 Nationals STU-L winner), who also drove both cars (4 + 4 runs). She was a few tenths off me in the M3, but further back on her STi runs. Since they don't allow dual car entries, we split our normal 8 runs each over both cars, but had them DNF us at the start when we were in the "wrong" car (the results will look screwy). I hit 1st gear in 4 spots in both cars and there was a 4 cone slalom with ~20' spacing. I mean it was >tight< !

(edit: They posted the results and I was in fact .19 sec faster in the STi than I was in the M3; it was such a jacked up course that this doesn't mean a whole lot)

Amy drove the M3 in STU on Sunday at a 1.2 mile TMS road course "autocross" while I ran the STi. This was a higher speed autocross with slaloms on some straights, high speed sweepers, etc. She got (edit) 3rd in the M3, .1 second behind 2nd place and .9 sec behind me, where I got 1st in the STi, out of a class of about 10-12 (total of 227 cars at this event). Again, not the same driver in both cars that day, and the M3 was on thrashed 255s up front. I will post more after we get a chance to look at the data from both cars at these 2 events as well as in-car video (need to bleep out my in-car course commentary from Saturday).

Some pics:

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/173476260-M.jpg
Amy knocked down (edit) 3rd place in STU with a 59.5 sec run.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/173478956-M.jpg
Me, in Hanchey's STi, 58.6 run was fastest.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/173467691-M.jpg
The EVO IX we're testing AST shocks on (McCall). His best raw time was 2 tenths quicker than mine but he never had a clean run all day. :( He's been kicking butt in this car lately, winning both the Houston Tour and Divisional.

More TMS event pictures here (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/3156958).

I never felt like I had a good run in the STi, as it was very loose in slaloms (just added a big rear bar and it needs more tweaking) and it was only my 2nd event running in it. Didn't feel like messing with the bar with only 3 runs and very little seat time in it beforehand. Drives very differently than the M3! Since we logged data on both the M3 and STi it will be interesting to see updated numbers with the 265s on the M3. More interesting when it has fresh 265 RE01Rs at all 4 corners, of course. With recently updated pads, lines and fluid in the STi it no longer feels out-braked compared to the M3, which used to regularly post better numbers under braking (1.1g vs .8 g) when the STi was using stock pads/lines.

Long, hot, busy weekend. The SCCA's annual TMS road course should NOT BE MISSED if you live in or near Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas! Best "autocross" layout ever, and they run the same course each year. Kudos to the Texas Region SCCA folks who put on this big, busy event.

OK, two extremely different (and atypical) courses hardly makes for a great comparison... just another couple of data points.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HhkxAkpjM - here's in-car video from the 2nd place STU classed STi.

Awesome man, glad to see my favorite BMW car still giving the turbo toys a run for their power...

On the subject of brake pads, the M3 supposedly has really good OEM pads. I can't offer any feedback on them, but I did receive Axxis Ultimates on my car when I purchased it and they have too much initial bite. The STi had a similar OEM pad in 2004, which everybody complained about. In 2005 and subsequent years, Subaru put in a weaker pad with less feel and less stopping power. The Evo's pads are solid with stopping power directly proportional to how much you push the pedal. Compared to the M3 and the STI, it also has the firmest pedal out of the bunch.

We ended up in Denver over the weekend and decided to run Irish's way under-prepared 95 M3 for the event on Sunday. The only suspension mods done to it so far are an alignment, Mason front strut bar, Koni single adjustables, and SSR 17x8.5s and 245/40 RE-01Rs. I managed a 5th out of 11th but coned out my run that would have put me in 4th. John Scheier, in his almost fully prepared M3 finished .240s off of Russ Johnson. Notable is that John was only running 245/40s on 17x9 CCWs whereas Russ was running Yoks to the rules at 245/40. John mentioned that the course was set in such a way that it was hard for Russ to lay down all that horsepower and I would tend to agree with him. The course was a long, active course where the key was maintaining momentum. I didn't get to talk to Russ to get his opinion of the course. Here are the results: http://www.rmsolo.org/msp_eventpts.php?rep=1_20070715SS

What I'm getting out of your data is that the STi was struggling with balance issues caused by the rear anti-roll bar and the M3 wasn't fully taking advantage of the tire due to the staggered setup you ran. Getting that extra bit in the front can only better it. Did you notice a difference in how the car drove with the extra tire?

I don't know about you, but it takes me about 4 or 5 runs before I've started to make the transition between the Evo and the M3. Even better, if I can get in 6 or 8 runs. Every 2 runs would prevent me from taking full advantage of either car.

-Jon

PM'ed you, imstimpy. Thanks.

Awww crap... mentioned by name :help

PM'ed you, imstimpy. Thanks.
Walter, what have you been up to lately?

THe Washington DC Region SCCA had it's Championship Event #4 on July 15.

Things didn't look so good for the M3 during the course walk. Start was a drag race through slaloms, a showcase turn at the bottom of the hill made for a hp race back up the hill. I think the M3 had an advantage back down the hill to the finish, however.

Course Map: (significant elevation change not shown, bottom of course [dashed line] is lowest elevation)
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wKunRvhDpBus4oXX9I2zkC7QbjLHj6CzDVX20Ap4AZmCC_FTkq P_Q_0FpiA5kaDClv1mjTm47tv2_akOGD8bobLD4kY4-Oy6Y2-Q/2007%20Course%20Maps/Event%20Four_7-15-07.PDF

But after the runs were done, things looked a little different!

1st Place STU - 95 M3!
*EDIT* Here is the correct link
http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/20070715.php

pics coming into the showcase turn.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/joenationwide/july15_02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/joenationwide/july15_01.jpg
here's Mike tasting the sting of 2nd place! :alright bwaaaahahahah
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/joenationwide/july15_03.jpg

Your goose is cooked son! I plan on having the Evo's front end working much better by the 12th (assuming I can even make the damn event). When that happens, you might as well start prepping for SM. On a side note, my M3 will be picked up this weekend...gonna miss it.

Mike

Your goose is cooked son! I plan on having the Evo's front end working much better by the 12th (assuming I can even make the damn event). When that happens, you might as well start prepping for SM. On a side note, my M3 will be picked up this weekend...gonna miss it.

Mike

Mike, you are totally sweatin' me now! Hahahahahahahaha! Now I know how to draw you out of hiding, I just post up some smack talk! Oh yeah, and I back it up!

Hope you get the EVO sorted for next event. You'll need all the help you can get to battle me!

That first picture shows some transitions that are "all M3" to me. :) Great job. Where are the Vorshlag stickers??

Your goose is cooked son! I plan on having the Evo's front end working much better by the 12th (assuming I can even make the damn event). When that happens, you might as well start prepping for SM. On a side note, my M3 will be picked up this weekend...gonna miss it.

Mike

Mike, a couple tips for you:

- The Evo is fastest on narrow wheels with even skinnier tires. I recommend a 6" rim width and 185 EconoStar tires

- Backpressure will help torque. Many people prefer to use IdahoSpud Mufflers, but I find a good chunk of balsa wood finessed into position with a mallet is lighter and lends a nice smoky scent to your runs.

- Finally the back end of the Evo really doesn't want to move around much since the drivetrain is so front-biased. 3 or 4 50lb bags of cement in the trunk helps build up momentum to get the back end swingin'.

Shhhhh... don't let anyone know about these though. They're secret! :D

Mike

Mike, a couple tips for you:

- The Evo is fastest on narrow wheels with even skinnier tires. I recommend a 6" rim width and 185 EconoStar tires

- Backpressure will help torque. Many people prefer to use IdahoSpud Mufflers, but I find a good chunk of balsa wood finessed into position with a mallet is lighter and lends a nice smoky scent to your runs.

- Finally the back end of the Evo really doesn't want to move around much since the drivetrain is so front-biased. 3 or 4 50lb bags of cement in the trunk helps build up momentum to get the back end swingin'.

Shhhhh... don't let anyone know about these though. They're secret! :D

Mike

:stickoutt:lol

I think we have the key to making the M3's more competitive in STU!

Nice driving Scott. A one second disparity with constant improvement on all runs is as good as you could ask for. You are on 9" SSRs, aren't you?

Btw, here are the results: http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/results/20070715.php
The links Scott posted aren't working for me.

-Jon

Nice driving Scott. A one second disparity with constant improvement on all runs is as good as you could ask for. You are on 9" SSRs, aren't you?


Yeah those are 17x9s. I was happy to take 1st, but I know I left a good 1/2 second out there.

That first picture shows some transitions that are "all M3" to me. :) Great job. Where are the Vorshlag stickers??

Yeah, that is a nice downhill slalom-ish section (note the two RHS pointer cones in a row). I made up the power difference coming up the hill by getting on the power earlier than anyone I saw.

I only have the 1 Vorshlag sticker,....Brian/Terry, PM me for sponsorship opportunities. ;) :D he he

Hello. I'm new to this thread but have been following it for a couple of weeks now. Great stuff! I'm pretty new to Auto-x but am interested in setting up my 95 m3 for STU. Is there a link on these forums where I can read up on what's already been discussed, or would this be the place? Thanks.

BTW, I currently have the TMS stage 2 engine upgrade (Euro HFM, Injectors, Chip, Intake), UUC SSK, Borla CBE, Koni SA's w/ H&R OE Sport Springs, OE wheels and Tires (Michelin PS2s), X-Brace. Basically a popular street setup.

I realize that I'm over the rules in some categories, and under in some.

Thanks.

Hello. I'm new to this thread but have been following it for a couple of weeks now. Great stuff! I'm pretty new to Auto-x but am interested in setting up my 95 m3 for STU. Is there a link on these forums where I can read up on what's already been discussed, or would this be the place? Thanks.

BTW, I currently have the TMS stage 2 engine upgrade (Euro HFM, Injectors, Chip, Intake), UUC SSK, Borla CBE, Koni SA's w/ H&R OE Sport Springs, OE wheels and Tires (Michelin PS2s), X-Brace. Basically a popular street setup.

I realize that I'm over the rules in some categories, and under in some.

Thanks.

The TMS stage 2 and x-brace take you out of STU.

thanks for the reply. I figured as such. Isn't it just the euro HFM portion that's illegal? If I were to take off the x-brace and hfm, then what would be the "progression" for a competetive car in STU?

Thanks

Clarifying a little further, your 3.5" MAF and injectors are not legal for STU, nor is the X-brace.

Take care of those, throw on some good sticky rubber (Yokohama AD07 or Bridgestone RE01R) on the widest rims you can get (well, around 9" wide should do it), and come on out for the competition. Eventually you'll want to look at camber plates, better shocks and different springs, but those can all hold off for now.

You have a huge learning curve to get through but you'll meet some great people, learn to drive a *lot* better and have so much fun you'll be amazed this stuff is legal.

Try to take part in events as often as possible. If you can compete twice a month, do it. Your driving will improve dramatically with that much participation. Be sure to get rides at practice events. You'll see even some of the best drivers in your region make mistakes, and you'll learn from every one of them.

Have fun!

Mike

Hello. I'm new to this thread but have been following it for a couple of weeks now. Great stuff! I'm pretty new to Auto-x but am interested in setting up my 95 m3 for STU. Is there a link on these forums where I can read up on what's already been discussed, or would this be the place? Thanks.

BTW, I currently have the TMS stage 2 engine upgrade (Euro HFM, Injectors, Chip, Intake), UUC SSK, Borla CBE, Koni SA's w/ H&R OE Sport Springs, OE wheels and Tires (Michelin PS2s), X-Brace. Basically a popular street setup.

I realize that I'm over the rules in some categories, and under in some.

Thanks.
Welcome to STU! Please ignore any and all bickering going on about the class rules here and at SCCAForums, as this is just a temporary firestorm that will surely quiet down soon.

Your car sounds pretty close to an STU preparation. As BJO noted you have a couple of items that go over, but that's not a big deal if you are just starting out. Just go ahead and run STU locally, and if you start to win or trophy, get the car into a "more legal" state. If you are new to Solo you probably won't be beating John Scheier or the other top STU drivers in Denver - don't let that worry you too much, either. :)

We have several BMW STU specific discussions here (http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=27) but this forum is probably your best source. Do some searches and/or ask some questions in this forum.

If you are new to Solo you probably won't be beating John Scheier or the other top STU drivers in Denver - don't let that worry you too much, either. :)

Don't let that statement deter you. Come on out to the next event (Coors Field - August) and I'll talk to you about setup. Some of us underdogs don't mind sharing our 'secrets' ;)

FWIW, FSTMTNBKR (probably slaughtered that) is also in the Colorado region and sports an M3 sedan. We'll be installing Vorshlag AST Doubles and some other stuff as soon as Fair gets off his a$$ and ships them :devillook

You can also check out http://www.rmsolo.org/forums/index.php for local auto-x discussions.

We'll be installing Vorshlag AST Doubles and some other stuff as soon as Fair gets off his a$$ and ships them :devillook

Arg... I'd ship them if they were here! Blame the Dutch and their incessant multi-week holidays. :(

http://images.usatoday.com/life/gallery/austin-powers/goldmember.jpg
:D

Awesome. I'm planning on running in the 8/19 event at Coors. I actually ran at Coors on 7/15 but did not have a chance to chat with anyone because I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

Thanks!

Arg... I'd ship them if they were here! Blame the Dutch and their incessant multi-week holidays. :(

All I'm hearing is excuses... I want RESULTS! :)

I need to put Russ and John back in their places (2nd and 3rd.. :D) and that's not gonna happen until the ASTs are in. Stock suspension just doesn't quite cut it in the fast transitions.

Looking forward to them... kinda patiently. They've only been on order all summer, so another week or so doesn't hurt.

Picking up my new still-too-narrow shoes tonight. :devillook Gotta order wheels next... Hey Fair, you want to price match the LTW's with the Kosei's so that I can justify buying them instead?!

;)

Reading through this thread, I see that there is a lot of talk about evo's and sti's being very strong contenders in STU. My question is, are these cars pretty much good to go out of the box with an ECU reflash and good tires, OR do they need the same kind of advanced suspension work like the M3 to be really competive?

Also, how does the 2.5 liter wrx (non sti) compete?

Thanks everyone.

Reading through this thread, I see that there is a lot of talk about evo's and sti's being very strong contenders in STU. My question is, are these cars pretty much good to go out of the box with an ECU reflash and good tires, OR do they need the same kind of advanced suspension work like the M3 to be really competive?

Also, how does the 2.5 liter wrx (non sti) compete?

Thanks everyone.
The STi and EVO come with tall ride heights, very soft springs and bars, terrible shocks, so-so- engine tuning, narrow wheels and tires, and no camber... so yea, they need some serious help to be competitive in STU.

The downside o the EVO/STi is their price : $30-35K new, and buying a used one... well, these aren't typically bought by the same M3 buyers, so many you see are going to be "rode hard and put up wet".

2.5L WRX is pretty far down from the STi. Its got too big a motor to run in STX (2.0L max) so its kind of an also-ran for ST nowadays. The older 2.0L WRX dominates STX (wins the Pros and Tours).

Thanks for the imput about the EVO and STI for STU. I noticed that at the national level, the STI is very competive in A-stock, but the EVO is not anywhere to be found. Is there a reason for this? I was under the general impression that the evo was at least as competetive as the STI for autocross.

Thanks for the imput about the EVO and STI for STU. I noticed that at the national level, the STI is very competive in A-stock, but the EVO is not anywhere to be found. Is there a reason for this? I was under the general impression that the evo was at least as competetive as the STI for autocross.

Stock for stock, the Evo is down in both power and torque to the STI. The Evo does make peak torque lower than the STI, according to the manufacturers. In playing with the two, the Evo feels kind of dead in the low-end and makes for some frustrating waits while trying to accelerate out of a low-rpm corner. Even out on the road course, I feel like the car bogs much below 5000 rpm. The STI pretty much feels like it has power everywhere. Keep in mind I have an Evo 8 whereas the Evo 9 will spool earlier and breath better up top. The difference between the 8 and 9, both stock, is pretty profound when looking at the usable torque and hp. All it would take is some hotshoe running an Evo 9 in AS to make everybody realize it isn't all that bad.

As far as the modifications necessary, all the cars are plagued with serious roll control problems. All three cars need much more static camber than they can get from the factory. I will say this, though, it is much easier to buy an STI/Evo, bolt on coil-overs and sticky tires, and go be fast with the judicious amounts of power and grip than it is to buy an M3, bolt on coil-overs, cry as you "roll" your fenders only to fit 10mm LESS than the maximum allowed tire size and then get frustrated as you learn how to keep every hard-earned mph in a grip and power challenged car.

It is a sad reality, but I sure had a lot of fun this weekend running my Bilstein-equpped M3 on SSR wheels with 245 RE-01Rs and getting slaughtered by my nemesis running his STI with stock power, coil-overs, and OEM 225 tires on OEM wheels. Of course, our second day we ran the M with three to four people the entire day so it wasn't like we were trying to win :D As soon as my Evo isn't broken, I'm going to go STI hunting.

-Jon

cry as you "roll" your fenders only to fit 10mm LESS than the maximum allowed tire size
-Jon

Sad state of affairs when we can go up to 275mm but we can't roll our fenders :rolleyes to GET to the 275mm limit.

Chicken & the egg.

Gio

Okay, with about 90 runs on them my Yoko AD07s are on the way out. I'll point out that I run almost exclusively on rough concrete that is hard on tires (Walnut Ridge-esque sites), and the tires were shaved to 6/32" to start with. I can probably get another 2-4 events out of the tires until they cord, but data logging shows that they've fallen off peak in terms of grip.

If I do Nationals this year it won't be in my car (probably not even in STU). So I'm looking for a tire on which I can finish out the local events competitively before the 2008 NT schedule gets going. This means 8-10 events, only two of which are in warm weather. I'm considering getting a set of 255mm Azenis RT-615s for my 17x9 wheels.

My reasoning:
- They're cheap, especially because I'm not going to shave them.
- I believe that they're supposed to be a good tire in cold weather. Is that correct?
- I could drive them to events (even non-local ones) because they wouldn't be shaved and they're not super-expensive.

Any comments?

i run them now; at $130 there's no question it wins bang for buck against the $210 re01r and $240 neova

--
255mm Azenis RT-615s for my 17x9 wheels

I agree, for cold weather duty the 615s should be fine... They overheat easily enough that I can't imagine they would be bad in cooler weather.

I just remembered that Bridgestone is running the $100 rebate (ends today) on a set of four tires. So I could get a set of 245/40-17 RE-01Rs for just a few bucks more than a set of 255/40-17 RT-615s.

Too bad the 255/40-17 RE-01R is almost as much as the Yoko.

I just remembered that Bridgestone is running the $100 rebate (ends today) on a set of four tires. So I could get a set of 245/40-17 RE-01Rs for just a few bucks more than a set of 255/40-17 RT-615s.

Too bad the 255/40-17 RE-01R is almost as much as the Yoko.

After autoxing and tracking both the 255/40/17 Falkens and the 245/40/17 Neovas (both on 17x8.5" kosei k1s), I think the Neovas are faster, and less heat sensitive, and less heat cycle sensitive.

Now the 255/40/17 Neova on 17x9" SSR? pure sex. ;)

After autoxing and tracking both the 255/40/17 Falkens and the 245/40/17 Neovas (both on 17x8.5" kosei k1s), I think the Neovas are faster, and less heat sensitive, and less heat cycle sensitive.

Now the 255/40/17 Neova on 17x9" SSR? pure sex. ;)
That's the exact setup I ran this year, and the tires more than paid for themselves thanks to contingency money and a couple of codrivers. But it's just too expensive to run regionally.

I left out the details on my initial post, but my tires have really dropped off in grip level. Last month I was pulling 1.13 - 1.15 g at a local site. This month I was doing 1.02 - 1.05 g at the same site. Data from other cars that were at both events show that there wasn't a universal decrease in surface grip.

edit: Just ordered a set of 245/40-17 RE-01Rs so I could still get in on the rebate. I'm going to run them full tread (and hope for rain). Once I get them I'm going to try to run my worn AD07s back-to-back with the new RE-01Rs and see what kind of grip levels each is generating.

edit: Just ordered a set of 245/40-17 RE-01Rs so I could still get in on the rebate. I'm going to run them full tread (and hope for rain). Once I get them I'm going to try to run my worn AD07s back-to-back with the new RE-01Rs and see what kind of grip levels each is generating.

I'm running these on 17x9s. They tend to get overheated... so keep your spray bottle handy. Other than that, if they are cool, they are pretty damn close to Neovas.

FWIW, I also ran then full-tread depth.

Thanks for all the posts. I've learned a lot from this one thread.

Imstimpy, thanks for your imput on the STI's and EVO's. BTW, it took me a second, but I realized I ran with you guys at the Denver event in July (Avus Blue M3 with stock rims). Any plans to come back down to Denver to run?

Anyways, I'm gonna listen to all the advice and not mess with the suspension until I get some more seat time and learn what the car's actually doing. (I only have 4 events and under 30 runs total)

I will, however, be needing new tires. I think i'm going to go with the separate tire/wheel route, as my long commute isn't the best for treadlife. Also, I know I could probably do better with grip and weight (Currently running OE everything in the wheel/tire dept).

Here's what I'm thinking...
Wheels: 17x8.5 Kosei K-1's on special for $165 at tirerack
Tires: 245/40/17 Potenza RE01 also on sale for $165 at tirerack

I know I could go wider, lighter and better, but I know absolutely nothing about fender clearance and spacers (intimidating for a newbie) and budget is a concern.

So I can't go wrong with these, right?
Is this a good price?
Who sells Falken 615's cheap?

Thanks to everyone in advance.

I'm running these on 17x9s. They tend to get overheated... so keep your spray bottle handy. Other than that, if they are cool, they are pretty damn close to Neovas.

FWIW, I also ran then full-tread depth.
Hopefully the temperature will only be an issue for my August event. After that the next event is in October when it should be getting cool. On my Yokos I tried to get them to under 100 degrees (measured with a probe) before I went out for a run.

I also hear that the Bridgestones like lower pressures (by 3-4 psi) compared to the Yokos. I reckon I'm planning on 32-33 psi for starters.

...
So I can't go wrong with these, right?
Is this a good price?
Who sells Falken 615's cheap?
I would agree that they are the right choice for your budget/experience level. Try EdgeRacing.com for the 615s

I would agree that they are the right choice for your budget/experience level. Try EdgeRacing.com for the 615s

Thanks for the tip on edge racing. The Falkens are a great deal at $130 but only come in a 255. Will these fit the kosei's? Will these fit my car? I'm interested in 255, but have no idea what would be involved.

Thanks.

Thanks for the tip on edge racing. The Falkens are a great deal at $130 but only come in a 255. Will these fit the kosei's? Will these fit my car? I'm interested in 255, but have no idea what would be involved.
They will be a little pinched on the Kosei but it can be done. You will probably need a spacer up front (10mm should do it) to clear the strut housing and spring perch, and rear fitment will depend on ride height. I used to run 245mm Yokos (which are probably about as wide on the 255mm Azenis) on Koseis with no spacer in the back and I had a tiny bit of rubbing when I had a trunk full of autocross stuff.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, there is a rebate on the Bridgestone RE-01R for SCCA members, so if you are one I think it makes sense to get those (in 245/40-17) over the Azenis. The downside is that the tires have to be purchased today to qualify, so you should probably get on the phone with the Tire Rack if you want to take advantage. Plus if you're getting the Koseis, Tire Rack will mount and balance the tires for you.

They will be a little pinched on the Kosei but it can be done. You will probably need a spacer up front (10mm should do it) to clear the strut housing and spring perch, and rear fitment will depend on ride height. I used to run 245mm Yokos (which are probably about as wide on the 255mm Azenis) on Koseis with no spacer in the back and I had a tiny bit of rubbing when I had a trunk full of autocross stuff.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, there is a rebate on the Bridgestone RE-01R for SCCA members, so if you are one I think it makes sense to get those (in 245/40-17) over the Azenis. The downside is that the tires have to be purchased today to qualify, so you should probably get on the phone with the Tire Rack if you want to take advantage. Plus if you're getting the Koseis, Tire Rack will mount and balance the tires for you.

Thanks! I just ordered my set of Kosei/Re01s from tirerack. The $100 rebate is good through 7/31/07, which is actually tomorrow. Several other car clubs are eligible for the rebate, including BMWCCA. Effectively, the tires come out to about $140.

you may need to roll rear fenders; i had to for this combo.
[end off topic]

Wheels: 17x8.5 Kosei K-1's on special for $165 at tirerack
Tires: 245/40/17 Potenza RE01 also on sale for $165 at tirerack

I know I could go wider, lighter and better, but I know absolutely nothing about fender clearance and spacers (intimidating fo