http://www.carsales.com.au/used-cars/private/BMW/323i/details.aspx?Model=323i&__Nne=20&__N=4294967079%200%204294967061%204294888901%20834 %20285%20257&Make=BMW&State=All%20States&silo=1003&state_id=0&distance=25&Cr=11&seot=0&__sid=110376055879&R=986308&__Ns=pCar_PrivateSpecialFlag_Int32%7C1%7C%7CpCar_I mageCount_Int32%7C1%7C%7CpCar_LastModifiedDate_Dat eTime%7C1&__No=20&trecs=37


Dear god. A Long story short, the old man is getting rid of the m3 due to a financial change, and is looking at alternate modes of transport. This particular car is right up on that list, and he loves the E21 as it is. Show some feedback im curious to think what i should ask him. I'm a little suspicious that its thrashed, although im wishing that it wont be. What should i ask the buyer before considering a purchase?

Thanks boys

Not sure if I like the color scheme as it attracts the attention of the POPO...

but this car is something you should get. Darn its fast.....



2.8L fuel injected balanced motor, fitted with Garret turbo and Motec engine management, generates 300+ horse power. 5 speed Getrag gearbox drives through to a 5 series limited slip diff and 15" x 8" Supalite mags. Spax fully adjustable suspension, four wheel disk brakes and sway bars provide impeccable handling.

Not sure if I like the color scheme as it attracts the attention of the POPO...

Although the police in Western australia wehre the car is based, are notorious for being the SS troopers of the Australian police force, over here in canberra we have plenty of modded vehicles. Dad doesnt really like the paint anyways, but we can change it gunmetal grey, like jbobs, whos colour looks positively awsome with the rims he has. Sall good otherwise, i just hope it has all its engineering certifs, otherwise theres a few grand getting them + rego. all adds up i guess, i just have to convince him to buy it. that means i would get it when he gets another m3 or whatever.

Sweet action!

I remember this was advertised last year for 30K I think

how do you swap in a 5 series diff without the subframe? and wouldnt the swapped subframe mean 5 lug hubs? or am i completely wrong about that?

like the spoiler though.

Well, depends on what 5 series diff it is. The side loaders have been used in E21's for a number of years and a couple of companies install them, the later model diffs are basically E30 units which wouldnt be too difficult with modifications to the subframe.

It makes no mention of any subframe swap.

Id make sure you really do have it checked out, for something of this nature i would want to get it on a hoist and inspect the underside to look for any weakness or cracking the frame or chassis which E21s do suffer. Then atleast do a compression test on the motor and take the car for a drive to see what it handles like. 14k is a lot of money for an E21, but its good value for the spec listed if it is true to form, however if all is not as it seems, it could turn into a giant money pit that would make your dads M3 seem like a joy to own.

Does your dad plan to drive the car as a main form of transport? or is it something to enjoy on the occaison you want to have a bit of fun? Only thing i dont think you have really considered is just what a 300+hp E21 is like to drive. Ive never seen a car that retains standard suspension geometry and angles that handles "well". By well id be looking for something that removes all the major problems e21's throw at you. The biggest thing is the understeer/oversteer issues that threaten to put you into a tree/fence/bridge if you dont keep on your toes. You really need to drive the thing and just see how it reacts to the power and if it is any worse off, even though the suspension has been upgraded. Sometimes its bad enough driving a ~150hp 323i around, double the power and im not too sure if i would like to drive it daily.

If you are even thinking about purchasing the car unsighted or untested i think you and your dad better put the cheque book away. The car could be mechanically and physically perfect, but you get in it and find its all too overpowering and you are stuck with something you are a little nervous of.

If the car was for me Mr hatter, i would agree with you absolutely. However my dads, well a bit of a hoon. To put it simply as much as he enjoys the practicality and superpowers of the M3, he craves old muscle. He craves what he used to have in his toy cars, hairy white knuckle handling.:lol

Ex rally drivers from the RWD age tend to crave such things.

Yes hes 53, but hes a nutter, and if we can get this thing to be reliable and such, then as a package deal it suits my dad entirely. i will on the otherhand fear it :eyecrazy

Bring it on.

SOT: on a side note, if anyone kart races in here, does anyone remember a class called twin super? 2x30 hp 20000rpm motors in a shell and driver that weighs a total of 150kg, with 4 wheel braking and super stickies. My driving instructor has one and is good mates with my dad. I said to my kart driving instructor, nah i value my life sorry, dads like "YEAHH! BRING IT ON!" :devillook

SOT: on a side note, if anyone kart races in here, does anyone remember a class called twin super? 2x30 hp 20000rpm motors in a shell and driver that weighs a total of 150kg, with 4 wheel braking and super stickies. My driving instructor has one and is good mates with my dad. I said to my kart driving instructor, nah i value my life sorry, dads like "YEAHH! BRING IT ON!" :devillook
yeah, the fastest I'll go is 100s right now, and they still worry me a bit.:shifty
Jake

Seriously, drive it first, a plane ticket is nix, stupid not to go and see it in person. There is a light years difference in handling between an E30 and an E21, let alone an M3. E21's just dont respond to power very well, they can be more than a handfull.

Seriously, drive it first, a plane ticket is nix, stupid not to go and see it in person. There is a light years difference in handling between an E30 and an E21, let alone an M3. E21's just dont respond to power very well, they can be more than a handfull.

Def bro, yeah hes looking into a flight over to the WA. We have a house over there anyways, so should be sweet. E21's dont respond to power well, I take it you've never driven an EH holden with over 300hp and 392nm of torque, and a first gear so tall that it hits 78mph before it redlines at 7k :devillook. But none the less bro, i see where your coming from, and i appreciate the advice you provided me with.

Superb.

yeah, the fastest I'll go is 100s right now, and they still worry me a bit.:shifty
Jake

haha yeah those clubmans are pretty intense, but you if you really want a thrill that will make you scream trying to stop yourself from shitting yourself, drive a rotax, omg. I went from 100J to 125 Rotax Maxx the other day, as my instructor gave me a ride of one, at a track out in the state of NSW. Wow, thats all i can say. also, i cant believe there are people crazy enough to drive a 250cc race motorbike engine gokart with no seatbelt no roll bar, 250kmh+ top speeds and only gods graces to keep you alive. :eyecrazy

Im so doin it :lol

Seriously, drive it first, a plane ticket is nix, stupid not to go and see it in person. There is a light years difference in handling between an E30 and an E21, let alone an M3. E21's just dont respond to power very well, they can be more than a handfull.

Is the due to the fact that we are tail happy?

Coil overs and stress bars should have an effect on this.
Madhatter can you explain to me a little more about how much power makes the e21 dangerous.

I'm sure madhatter knows far more than I do about handling, but I would say the suspension goemetry and design of the e21 is one of the factors that causes the unpredictable tail snap that the e21 is known for. I won't begin to pretend like I know how the suspension design would effect the handling, control and safety of a high horsepower e21. I do know that even with sticky Azenis tires my car will still sometimes get a little squirly in 2nd gear from a roll on a cold morning. I only have around 200 hp, maybe a little more (I really have no idea till I get on a dyno). I would think that any 2400 lb car with over 200 hp is going to have the same issue though.

Joe, I'm sure it's more complex than just sway bars, bushings, shocks and springs. Other things to consider that have huge effects on handling and how the car performs at the limit are the roll centers of the front and rear axles, toe and camber of both axles and how they change under compression, etc. Even the location of control arm and trailing arm attachment points (which effects the angle of the arms) can have an effect on how the suspension moves and responds. I don't have enough of an understanding of how they all work together to say anything more.

But, I would think that it is possible to set things up on an e21 well enough to adjust most short comings out through the use of camber/toe adjustment front and rear, the correct spring rates, shock damping, etc. but I don't know.

I'm sure BMW improved vastly over the E21 with the e30 in many ways including suspension design, and did the same again with the e36 and e46, if not then they are doing something wrong.

Curious, Does anyone know why the AE-86 Rolla is still so popular in drifting? is it just because of the weight, and P-W ratio potential? or something else? What handles better? E21 or Rolla?

(I personally think the haichiroku is awsome, but i dont actually know why lol)

I'm sure BMW improved vastly over the E21 with the e30 in many ways including suspension design, and did the same again with the e36 and e46, if not then they are doing something wrong.

This is why you will never see me argue with anyone how the E21 is the omg best ever bmw. Fact is, the E30 is better, and so on. How silly would that be for BMW to not improve their technology with the next generation.

Curious, Does anyone know why the AE-86 Rolla is still so popular in drifting? is it just because of the weight, and P-W ratio potential? or something else? What handles better? E21 or Rolla?

(I personally think the haichiroku is awsome, but i dont actually know why lol)

Stock, the AE-86 probably isn't so great. The P-W ratio probably isn't any better than the E21. There are Toy engines that make great swaps so more power is cheap and easy.

I would guess that they make great drift cars for several reasons:

1) Drifting originated in Japan. This is one of the few Japanese RWD cars out of the 80's.
2) Because they are older, they are cheap
3) Because they are older, they are simple
4) They have a solid rear axle which makes it easy to stiffen the rear up enough for drifting
5) They are lightweight

Do they really have a live axle! I had no idea. I thought they were simple fully independent.

Yeah, I saw one for the first time at an auto-x a few years ago (there aren't many around in the states). The guy had coil overs and nice wheels and the rear was sliding all over the place.

We checked it out after the race and I was suprised to see a live axle with a pumkin in the middle.

Man Tsuchiya must have a hell of a time keeping his in check. TRD tuned, id say thats pretty intense. lol

Man Tsuchiya must have a hell of a time keeping his in check. TRD tuned, id say thats pretty intense. lol

The white one? It's not that heavily modified... 170hp IIRC. It has a 4age 20V which is ~100kw standard.

Yeah true deal.

If i could get 170hp out of my 1.8L, i would be happy. very happy.

Yeah true deal.

If i could get 170hp out of my 1.8L, i would be happy. very happy.

4age is 1.6L

my mate drifts an ae86 with a ca18det tuned to 175kw at wheels.
he chose it because its small, lightweight and easily modified. eg he put the control arms from a silvia under the front to widen the track and increase steering lock and now a different type of diff is gettin the brackets welded up to make it fit under as the 175kw was tearing up his original one.
heres a vid of now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5edoTZxBJQ
i imagine this is how that bmw would be just trying to get traction hehe

4age is 1.6L

This is true, but i would consider the 4age a better motor for tuning purposes initially, until you get into the forged area, then they are both on par.