Just got this in today from Germany after waiting almost 3 months. Can anybody guess what it is? On with the picture

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/3077/2551009220089932451S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2551009220089932451FgJkCN)

Wow, that's a tough one. Is it a tool or a vehicle part?

Wow, that's a tough one. Is it a tool or a vehicle part?

Vehicle part. Found mostly on PTG cars as a hint

Just got this in today from Germany after waiting almost 3 months. Can anybody guess what it is? On with the picture

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/3077/2551009220089932451S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2551009220089932451FgJkCN)



I'm gonna guess it's some kind of pump for those fancy jacks???

It looks like the end has some kind of knob...so, I'm probably way off.

electric power steering pump & reservoir.

electric power steering pump & reservoir.

Ding ding ding... It is a Mercedes A-Class power steering pump only available in Germany. After researching and finding many pictures of PTGs pumps, they are the same exact part. It is manufactured by VDO.

So Matt,

Whats involved with the installation? I'm guessing it doesn't just bolt right up, huh.

So Matt,

Whats involved with the installation? I'm guessing it doesn't just bolt right up, huh.

Ken, thats Jared :)

Also, its actually not that hard to install. Power, Ground, two lines to the steering rack (and cooler if you choose), mount it somewhere, and BAM, electric steering.

Ken, thats Jared :)

Also, its actually not that hard to install. Power, Ground, two lines to the steering rack (and cooler if you choose), mount it somewhere, and BAM, electric steering.


D'OH. Sorry Jared:D


Man, that's really cool. I figured it wouldn't just hook right up to the BMW PS lines.

Jared,

with this type of bling, flared fneders and that sweet S54, you're going to have to change that "c mod on a budget" line :)

Vince

So... JOOI, where would one typically mount this sucker?? - ala Dr. Lipowicz(sp??) ...sorry Alex >> In the pass footwell or underhood somewhere??

I recall the year before when I blew the PS pump at the Glen - drove most of the rest of the race wknd w/o any PS...w/ Popeye syndrome for the next few days after. Felt like the car might have been actually quicker (as I looped the now broken pump and was driving w/ shorter belt which I happened to have). However, have no idea what sorta HP numbers said pump is actually worth. Any ideas?? (btw - yes, I know you can't do this in Prepared class)

Looks great Jared... best regards!

Dave Rowlison
#65, IP

Oooh! More info, please! I'll catch you on AIM...

Vince - was just gonna type the same thing...;)
Dave

Jared,

with this type of bling, flared fneders and that sweet S54, you're going to have to change that "c mod on a budget" line :)

Vince

Haha, thanks Vince. In all reality, its still not that bad since I do all the work myself except internal motor work and tuning. Everything else is taken care by me with the fabrication/bodywork so its not all that bad. It definitely has stepped up a bit when I just started racing it though!

I remember when you first got the car with the euro 3.2, didn't take long before it slowly began to be overhauled :)

what's the pricing on this?

Around $450-500 US

Jared,

with this type of bling, flared fneders and that sweet S54, you're going to have to change that "c mod on a budget" line :)

Vince

Don't worry Vince - he's just got a REALLY BIG F---ING BUDGET

Har.

sexy

Nice find. What's the size/weight of that thing? Looks pretty small...

Nice find. What's the size/weight of that thing? Looks pretty small...

It is 90x300mm and weighs in at 3.75kgs. Its a pretty nice unit that is lighter then the belt driven pump considering this has the reservoir built into it. This particular model I have is the LFE35 which has the higher bar output. Its max is 81bar whereas the LFE28 is 73bar. I should have this installed after Hyperfest. I just dont have time preparing the other 2 cars for that event.

I've had one of these on my shelf for about 9 months now, got it out of europe as well, have ordered all the banjo bolts and made the lines and just not got around to installing it.

Took me a LONG time to find the part on the internet, but you've got the facts spot on.

I am not as sure as you are that there is not special adaptations or programming or "feel" in the motorsport part.

It is not at all unreasonable to think that Porsche or BMW can afford to have specially made models with internal changes. Chances are that the molds and part numbers that are externally visible would not necessarily be different as the cost for tooling new molds might not be worth it. We know that they reprogram ABS units all the time, but externally, they look the same, and, they might even carry the same "part" number if you just look at it, you might not know the difference.

I spent HOURS looking for this after seeing it on a local car and just drooling. I was told by the builder that it was a $2K part, and of course they could get one for me and install it for me in their shop.

Having already adapted the BMW Mini pump and used it successfully for several seasons.. I felt confident that I could find out who made the basic pump, and adapt it as well.

G-d bless the internet and search engines!
Alex Lipowich

I've had one of these on my shelf for about 9 months now, got it out of europe as well, have ordered all the banjo bolts and made the lines and just not got around to installing it.

Took me a LONG time to find the part on the internet, but you've got the facts spot on.

I am not as sure as you are that there is not special adaptations or programming or "feel" in the motorsport part.

It is not at all unreasonable to think that Porsche or BMW can afford to have specially made models with internal changes. Chances are that the molds and part numbers that are externally visible would not necessarily be different as the cost for tooling new molds might not be worth it. We know that they reprogram ABS units all the time, but externally, they look the same, and, they might even carry the same "part" number if you just look at it, you might not know the difference.

I spent HOURS looking for this after seeing it on a local car and just drooling. I was told by the builder that it was a $2K part, and of course they could get one for me and install it for me in their shop.

Having already adapted the BMW Mini pump and used it successfully for several seasons.. I felt confident that I could find out who made the basic pump, and adapt it as well.

G-d bless the internet and search engines!
Alex Lipowich

When I asked the seller in Germany about feel, he told me it has a little more heft to it and is not as assisted. He runs the same setup in his M3 he runs on the Nurburgring. Quick question Alex. Where did you get banjo fittings for the steering rack? I havent been able to find ones big enough. Thanks

What I want to find out is how they run on variable voltage. Because it would not be too hard to have a GPO control the "strength" of the pump based on simple speed and steering angle references. This would allow the steering to have a tighter feel at high speeds, and during the low speed stuff it would be full power to reduce the "heftyness" at low speeds.

In order to maintain part commonality, OEMs will specify different orifice sizings within the racks to vary the pressure and consequntly the amount of "boost". Haven't taken a rack apart, so I'n not sure exactly where these are located.

Another possibility would be to install a variable flow valve on the high pressure line to vary the pressure to the rack (cockpit adjustable?). Downside would the be continuous loss of power from the pressure drop (probably minimal), and lack of speed sensitivity.

Seems like it would be much easier to electronically control it to be variable depending on some linear variables like steering angle or vehicle speed.

Seems like it would be much easier to electronically control it to be variable depending on some linear variables like steering angle or vehicle speed.

Depends upon your definition of "easy".

easier than plumbing all the valves and whatnot you were talking about, especially since its a bit distracting to constantly be changing the position of a valve while you're driving :)

Also, not sure how the pump would like the different restrictions on flow rate while its at a constant pump pressure.

easier than plumbing all the valves and whatnot you were talking about, especially since its a bit distracting to constantly be changing the position of a valve while you're driving :)

Also, not sure how the pump would like the different restrictions on flow rate while its at a constant pump pressure.

One valve in one line is complicated?

Only have to adjust to your liking. No need to 'constantly adjust it.

Pretty sure that the mechanical pumps are positive displacement, so they pump at a constant flow rate for a given rpm. Pressure is already regulated by a relief valve.

One valve in one line is complicated?

Only have to adjust to your liking. No need to 'constantly adjust it.

Pretty sure that the mechanical pumps are positive displacement, so they pump at a constant flow rate for a given rpm. Pressure is already regulated by a relief valve.

Actually, there is a need to constantly adjust it (in terms of optimum efficiency for the drivers needs), because steering input requirements change dependant on speed. This is how the high end GT systems work, as they allow the driver to have the best feeling at all times...but these are much more complicated.

Do you know how these pumps work in regards to varying the input RPM? I've heard/been told conflicting reports on if it would prematurely fail from loads it encounters while at low rpm.

I'm going with the PMNA unit because I know for a fact it can hold up to a lot of abuse and is reliable. Power steering is not something i want to lose mid race with 280's in the front :)

Actually, there is a need to constantly adjust it (in terms of optimum efficiency for the drivers needs), because steering input requirements change dependant on speed. This is how the high end GT systems work, as they allow the driver to have the best feeling at all times...but these are much more complicated.

Do you know how these pumps work in regards to varying the input RPM? I've heard/been told conflicting reports on if it would prematurely fail from loads it encounters while at low rpm.

No 'need' to constantly adjust them for speed, but it is desirebale or at least marketable.

With a mechanically driven system the worst possible loads occur at the lowest rpms (parking lots) so the system is way oversized for operation at higher speeds and RPM. The advantage of the electrohydraulic system is that the pump can be sized for a constant rpm therby wasting less energy at higher speeds.

I assume that the current electrohydraulics systems still use a variable pressure relief system for varying the assist, but maybe some vary the pump rpm as well. Varying the rpm on a DC motor is pretty straight forward, but IIRC they do tend to heat up when run too slowly (slept through most of my EE classes).

No 'need' to constantly adjust them for speed, but it is desirebale or at least marketable.

With a mechanically driven system the worst possible loads occur at the lowest rpms (parking lots) so the system is way oversized for operation at higher speeds and RPM. The advantage of the electrohydraulic system is that the pump can be sized for a constant rpm therby wasting less energy at higher speeds.

I assume that the current electrohydraulics systems still use a variable pressure relief system for varying the assist, but maybe some vary the pump rpm as well. Varying the rpm on a DC motor is pretty straight forward, but IIRC they do tend to heat up when run too slowly (slept through most of my EE classes).

Sleeping in class is a nono ;)

The motorsport system is made by TRW, look it up, its pretty amazing.

Not talking about anything related to sales/marketing, we're takling about motorsport applications for electrohyrualic steering systems. A constant rate means the steering will feel the same on a 140mph kink as it will on a 40mph sharp turn. Thats not desirable. Many new cars have variable steering, so the car is less twitchy on the highway, however there are higher loads thats need to be sustained for longer time periods, so it takes a "beefier" design.

Obviously the stock setup Works, but thats what racing is all about, innovating and pushing the envelope.

The built in computer electronics in the Mini functions very well in some way that I do not understand completely. While there is a diagnostic line that goes to the general bus(?) for the E36, and would allow interogation or detection of EPS faults, I seriously doubt its picking up information from the discreet ABS wheel speed sensors or the diff to give it variable assist.

Yet, it has variable assist built in as part of its function.

I believe actually that it is picking up pressure changes, or, perhaps aware of the pressure needed to move the rack or keep it stable where it is. I rather suspect that its got some sophisticated "stuff" inside because it works pretty damn near flawlessly, and does seem to be speed sensitive.

It varies its pump speed and I assume pressure based on need...you can hear it easily in my case as its in the passenger footwell. I do not know if this new unit is that sophisticated or if it does the same thing.

An easy fix is to cut the existing PS hose, swedge fit on AN-6 fittings.

Alex.