Well I'll jump right into this. (sorry for not having any clips from this kill, it was a few minutes ago coming back from work).

Well as I was driving down a high way from work, I noticed that there was a car with ridiculously bright head lights behind me. It was to the point where it seemed like he had his high beams on. Anyway, I started to drive a little faster and to switch lanes so I wouldn't have to deal with this bright ass head lights behind me. After I took the other lane, I saw that he was accelerating and so intuitively I started to get ready for a race. I was doing maybe around 45 in 3rd and he gave me the go for the race. As soon as we were off, it seemed as if he was pulling as hard as I did, but as soon as I shifted to 4th and hit up 80-85 I started to walk him. Then to 5th and was about 3 to 4 C/L's away from the civic.

Now, being that my car is eleven years old and his is just a couple months old, I would've guessed that it should be up to par with my 3series. However, from this race tonight and from what other bimmer drivers have experienced with racing the civic si, I finally came to a conclusion that the Si is a piece of shit.

BTW: The Si sounded like it had a CAI and also had some kind of huge ass exhaust, idk maybe a fart can... who cares? its a Si :D

i personally like the new Si's and the number's it puts down isnt that bad...my friend has 1 and i liked driving it, the interior was nice, overall a good car. I personally wouldnt get 1, only honda id get is a s2000, but it sounds like it gave u a good run and u should respect the driver and his car.

Good kill!

calling B.S. nice and early

Sorry man 328is is a nice car but 07 civic si are a lot quicker. Top end it wouldn't be a contest he would pull right away from you expecially with any upgrades. Your car is stock right?

That's real iffy, I think it's possible, but not the distance as decribed by OP. Those k20 engines are serious power houses in such a light vehicle.

i think that race is true. the new si's are pretty heavy. then again, they're makin' more power than you. but, i think that race is possible. a 197hp si, against a 328. 28xx lbs vs. atleast 32xxlbs. with your torque, you should walk the si. so i think its right that you won.

Funny how perception colors what we say about cars we don't know anything about.

In other threads, people here have praised the RSX Type S, some even saying that it can hang with an E36 M3 in some instances. Yet, here's a 328i, beating what is essentially the exact same car, except it's named "Civic", and a 3-4 car-length loss is acceptable.

Look, car magazines, whom we all know never have a car long enough to get it to its potential, have driven the new Si to 14.7-14.8. Being a FWD car, it's even better from a roll.

Here: http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416

There's a link to the dyno vid, if you do not believe the post. Check out what other people were dyno'ing at at the same day too.

You raced a Civic EX coupe. They look almost exactly the same as the Si. Either that or he let off and you kept going.

Funny how perception colors what we say about cars we don't know anything about.

In other threads, people here have praised the RSX Type S, some even saying that it can hang with an E36 M3 in some instances. Yet, here's a 328i, beating what is essentially the exact same car, except it's named "Civic", and a 3-4 car-length loss is acceptable.

Look, car magazines, whom we all know never have a car long enough to get it to its potential, have driven the new Si to 14.7-14.8. Being a FWD car, it's even better from a roll.

Here: http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416

There's a link to the dyno vid, if you do not believe the post. Check out what other people were dyno'ing at at the same day too.

You raced a Civic EX coupe. They look almost exactly the same as the Si. Either that or he let off and you kept going.

I would agree with you there. It was probably a modded Civic EX, with CAI and exhaust and a Si badge! :lol Those cars are pretty quick, and if your E36 is stock, I highly doubt that was your outcome.

But then again, I always say...anything can happen in a street race ;)

there was a video of a new si with only exhaust that ran a 14.2

Nice kill. L6 FTW!

this is obviously a 17 y.o with a small prick and something to prove and looking to us to back up his "kill" ... guess what junior ,, not tonight ! :cool

bs Yo!

The Si is not a light car, it's 2900 lbs. (My M3 is 3175).

In fifth gear, however, the effect of weight is negligible. Aerodynamic drag is much more important. The 328 has poor aerodynamics, but the Si has NO trq. It could go either way.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY a an Si with only exhaust ran a 14.2. It did not happen.

Funny how perception colors what we say about cars we don't know anything about.

In other threads, people here have praised the RSX Type S, some even saying that it can hang with an E36 M3 in some instances. Yet, here's a 328i, beating what is essentially the exact same car, except it's named "Civic", and a 3-4 car-length loss is acceptable.

Look, car magazines, whom we all know never have a car long enough to get it to its potential, have driven the new Si to 14.7-14.8. Being a FWD car, it's even better from a roll.

Here: http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416

There's a link to the dyno vid, if you do not believe the post. Check out what other people were dyno'ing at at the same day too.

You raced a Civic EX coupe. They look almost exactly the same as the Si. Either that or he let off and you kept going.

Why must you come in with hard facts and kill everyone's ego.. :(

The SI has been a rollercoaster from slow to quick cars to slow cars and back to quick in such a short time.

i pulled an Si in my M3 but thats kuz we were following a group lolz

A friend of mine has a stock 07 civic si which I will eventually be racing with my 95 m3. Obviously Ill win but I dont know by how much. AS far as this kill goes, I can see this as very possible. The si, like many have mentioned, has shit for torque. The new accorcd v6's will kill the si's so why would anyone want one?

The Si is not a light car, it's 2900 lbs. (My M3 is 3175).

In fifth gear, however, the effect of weight is negligible. Aerodynamic drag is much more important. The 328 has poor aerodynamics, but the Si has NO trq. It could go either way.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY a an Si with only exhaust ran a 14.2. It did not happen.


Well here's a link with corroboration and video of an Si running a 14.1 with ONLY AN INTAKE. Guess that shoots your "theory".

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1900138

Funny how perception colors what we say about cars we don't know anything about.

In other threads, people here have praised the RSX Type S, some even saying that it can hang with an E36 M3 in some instances. Yet, here's a 328i, beating what is essentially the exact same car, except it's named "Civic", and a 3-4 car-length loss is acceptable.

Look, car magazines, whom we all know never have a car long enough to get it to its potential, have driven the new Si to 14.7-14.8. Being a FWD car, it's even better from a roll.

Here: http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416

There's a link to the dyno vid, if you do not believe the post. Check out what other people were dyno'ing at at the same day too.

You raced a Civic EX coupe. They look almost exactly the same as the Si. Either that or he let off and you kept going.


From all the criticisms I've gotten, if you're THAT much of a skeptic and want to call bs on a pure BMW enthusiast who's not even ALL about street racing or racing in general. Take a 328 out and race a 07 civic, then you'd REALLY know.

For everyone talking about the Civic's 'lack' of TQ, it has 150 WTQ, almost as much WTQ as an E36 325. Which, if you consider that it has a 2.0 liter 4-cylinder, is not too shabby.

Also, it might have less actual TQ than a 328, but it is geared right for what it needs, which is why it can produce so much HP. If you posers can just stop 'posing' for a second and read up on how gearing multiplies TQ.

Here, for the more lazy among you posers (true enthusiasts need not read it, as you probably have read it before):


The Case For Torque

Now, what does all this mean in carland?

First of all, from a driver's perspective, torque, to use the vernacular, RULES :-). Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve (allowing for increased air and rolling resistance as speeds climb). Another way of saying this is that a car will accelerate hardest at its torque peak in any given gear, and will not accelerate as hard below that peak, or above it. Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context. 300 foot pounds of torque will accelerate you just as hard at 2000 rpm as it would if you were making that torque at 4000 rpm in the same gear, yet, per the formula, the horsepower would be *double* at 4000 rpm. Therefore, horsepower isn't particularly meaningful from a driver's perspective, and the two numbers only get friendly at 5252 rpm, where horsepower and torque always come out the same.

In contrast to a torque curve (and the matching pushback into your seat), horsepower rises rapidly with rpm, especially when torque values are also climbing. Horsepower will continue to climb, however, until well past the torque peak, and will continue to rise as engine speed climbs, until the torque curve really begins to plummet, faster than engine rpm is rising. However, as I said, horsepower has nothing to do with what a driver *feels*.

You don't believe all this?

Fine. Take your non turbo car (turbo lag muddles the results) to its torque peak in first gear, and punch it. Notice the belt in the back? Now take it to the power peak, and punch it. Notice that the belt in the back is a bit weaker? Fine. Can we go on, now? :-)

The Case For Horsepower

OK. If torque is so all-fired important, why do we care about horsepower?

Because (to quote a friend), "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*.

For an extreme example of this, I'll leave carland for a moment, and describe a waterwheel I got to watch awhile ago. This was a pretty massive wheel (built a couple of hundred years ago), rotating lazily on a shaft which was connected to the works inside a flour mill. Working some things out from what the people in the mill said, I was able to determine that the wheel typically generated about 2600(!) foot pounds of torque. I had clocked its speed, and determined that it was rotating at about 12 rpm. If we hooked that wheel to, say, the drivewheels of a car, that car would go from zero to twelve rpm in a flash, and the waterwheel would hardly notice :-).

On the other hand, twelve rpm of the drivewheels is around one mph for the average car, and, in order to go faster, we'd need to gear it up. To get to 60 mph would require gearing the wheel up enough so that it would be effectively making a little over 43 foot pounds of torque at the output, which is not only a relatively small amount, it's less than what the average car would need in order to actually get to 60. Applying the conversion formula gives us the facts on this. Twelve times twenty six hundred, over five thousand two hundred fifty two gives us:

6 HP.

Oops. Now we see the rest of the story. While it's clearly true that the water wheel can exert a *bunch* of force, its *power* (ability to do work over time) is severely limited.
At The Dragstrip

OK. Back to carland, and some examples of how horsepower makes a major difference in how fast a car can accelerate, in spite of what torque on your backside tells you :-).

A very good example would be to compare the current LT1 Corvette with the last of the L98 Vettes, built in 1991. Figures as follows:

Engine Peak | HP @ RPM | Peak Torque @ RPM
...------.... -------------...-----------------
....L98...250 @ 4000.......340 @ 3200
....LT1...300 @ 5000.......340 @ 3600

The cars are geared identically, and car weights are within a few pounds, so it's a good comparison.

First, each car will push you back in the seat (the fun factor) with the same authority - at least at or near peak torque in each gear. One will tend to *feel* about as fast as the other to the driver, but the LT1 will actually be significantly faster than the L98, even though it won't pull any harder. If we mess about with the formula, we can begin to discover exactly *why* the LT1 is faster. Here's another slice at that formula:

............Horsepower * 5252
Torque = -----------------
.....................RPM

If we plug some numbers in, we can see that the L98 is making 328 foot pounds of torque at its power peak (250 hp @ 4000), and we can infer that it cannot be making any more than 263 pound feet of torque at 5000 rpm, or it would be making more than 250 hp at that engine speed, and would be so rated. In actuality, the L98 is probably making no more than around 210 pound feet or so at 5000 rpm, and anybody who owns one would shift it at around 46-4700 rpm, because more torque is available at the drive wheels in the next gear at that point.

On the other hand, the LT1 is fairly happy making 315 pound feet at 5000 rpm, and is happy right up to its mid 5s redline.

So, in a drag race, the cars would launch more or less together. The L98 might have a slight advantage due to its peak torque occuring a little earlier in the rev range, but that is debatable, since the LT1 has a wider, flatter curve (again pretty much by definition, looking at the figures). From somewhere in the mid range and up, however, the LT1 would begin to pull away. Where the L98 has to shift to second (and throw away torque multiplication for speed), the LT1 still has around another 1000 rpm to go in first, and thus begins to widen its lead, more and more as the speeds climb. As long as the revs are high, the LT1, by definition, has an advantage.

Another example would be the LT1 against the ZR-1. Same deal, only in reverse. The ZR-1 actually pulls a little harder than the LT1, although its torque advantage is softened somewhat by its extra weight. The real advantage, however, is that the ZR-1 has another 1500 rpm in hand at the point where the LT1 has to shift.

There are numerous examples of this phenomenon. The Integra GS-R, for instance, is faster than the garden variety Integra, not because it pulls particularly harder (it doesn't), but because it pulls *longer*. It doesn't feel particularly faster, but it is.

A final example of this requires your imagination. Figure that we can tweak an LT1 engine so that it still makes peak torque of 340 foot pounds at 3600 rpm, but, instead of the curve dropping off to 315 pound feet at 5000, we extend the torque curve so much that it doesn't fall off to 315 pound feet until 15000 rpm. OK, so we'd need to have virtually all the moving parts made out of unobtanium :-), and some sort of turbocharging on demand that would make enough high-rpm boost to keep the curve from falling, but hey, bear with me.

If you raced a stock LT1 with this car, they would launch together, but, somewhere around the 60 foot point, the stocker would begin to fade, and would have to grab second gear shortly thereafter. Not long after that, you'd see in your mirror that the stocker has grabbed third, and not too long after that, it would get fourth, but you'd wouldn't be able to see that due to the distance between you as you crossed the line, *still in first gear*, and pulling like crazy.

I've got a computer simulation that models an LT1 Vette in a quarter mile pass, and it predicts a 13.38 second ET, at 104.5 mph. That's pretty close (actually a tiny bit conservative) to what a stock LT1 can do at 100% air density at a high traction drag strip, being powershifted. However, our modified car, while belting the driver in the back no harder than the stocker (at peak torque) does an 11.96, at 135.1 mph, all in first gear, of course. It doesn't pull any harder, but it sure as hell pulls longer :-). It's also making *900* hp, at 15,000 rpm.

Of course, folks who are knowledgeable about drag racing are now openly snickering, because they've read the preceeding paragraph, and it occurs to them that any self respecting car that can get to 135 mph in a quarter mile will just naturally be doing this in less than ten seconds. Of course that's true, but I remind these same folks that any self-respecting engine that propels a Vette into the nines is also making a whole bunch more than 340 foot pounds of torque.

That does bring up another point, though. Essentially, a more "real" Corvette running 135 mph in a quarter mile (maybe a mega big block) might be making 700-800 foot pounds of torque, and thus it would pull a whole bunch harder than my paper tiger would. It would need slicks and other modifications in order to turn that torque into forward motion, but it would also get from here to way over there a bunch quicker.

On the other hand, as long as we're making quarter mile passes with fantasy engines, if we put a 10.35:1 final-drive gear (3.45 is stock) in our fantasy LT1, with slicks and other chassis mods, we'd be in the nines just as easily as the big block would, and thus save face :-). The mechanical advantage of such a nonsensical rear gear would allow our combination to pull just as hard as the big block, plus we'd get to do all that gear banging and such that real racers do, and finish in fourth gear, as God intends. :-)

The only modification to the preceeding paragraph would be the polar moments of inertia (flywheel effect) argument brought about by such a stiff rear gear, and that argument is outside of the scope of this already massive document. Another time, maybe, if you can stand it :-).

The 328 might pull 'harder' than your typical Si due to TQ, but the Si keeps its pull much, much longer.

I raced a new Si about a month ago.

My car: AUTO, Ecis and M3 exhaust (no real gain).

His: CAI, exhaust (I could hear his intake over mine with my windows rolled up and music)

0-100MPH he put about 3 cars on me.

From all the criticisms I've gotten, if you're THAT much of a skeptic and want to call bs on a pure BMW enthusiast who's not even ALL about street racing or racing in general. Take a 328 out and race a 07 civic, then you'd REALLY know.

Please. Feel free to supply me with said cars, and I will test it out gladly for you.

There are many factors that go into each and every impromptu streetrace. Are you SURE that was an Si you raced? If you are, are you SURE that he was going all out in every gear when you pulled him? Because what we're debating here is one car being faster than another, eliminating driver skill or intention out of it, as we can never know what the other driver in this story was doing, or driving, for that matter.

All signs point to the Civic Si being faster in every aspect. Or is your BMW-fueled ego not going to take that? Or is it the 'magical' HP that BMWs in bf.c have, where it counts for twice what other cars have?

With that being said, feel free to present videos of 328's running LOW 14's barely-modded, in the 1/4-mile, where the RWD 328, with 'all its torque' should have an advantage over the FWD, 'torqueless' Si.

For everyone talking about the Civic's 'lack' of TQ, it has 150 WTQ, almost as much WTQ as an E36 325. Which, if you consider that it has a 2.0 liter 4-cylinder, is not too shabby.

Also, it might have less actual TQ than a 328, but it is geared right for what it needs, which is why it can produce so much HP. If you posers can just stop 'posing' for a second and read up on how gearing multiplies TQ.

Here, for the more lazy among you posers (true enthusiasts need not read it, as you probably have read it before):



The 328 might pull 'harder' than your typical Si due to TQ, but the Si keeps its pull much, much longer.

Actually the E36 325is has 181lb\ft of tq. I believe the numbers for the 328is is 190\208 correct? if the numbers for the new SI( which i think look great) is 197\150 and is lighter and responds better to mods then i would think this would be a very good race with equal drivers.

I would not mind having a new SI for a DD, but I only need one car and that is the C5.

To the OP good kill, but the SI is an outstanding car that is a great buy. You shouldn't knock a car just because it is a honda. Honda makes some excellent cars IMHO.

Actually the E36 325is has 181lb\ft of tq.

I was talking about torque to the wheels. Check the link I gave. 150-ft-lbs TO THE WHEELS for the Si. I have seen dynos of modded 325's in here at about 165 ft-lbs at the wheels, so, like I said, they are close.

Every single time I see a 328 thread I start to cringe because it turns into a pissing contest.

I was talking about torque to the wheels. Check the link I gave. 150-ft-lbs TO THE WHEELS for the Si. I have seen dynos of modded 325's in here at about 165 ft-lbs at the wheels, so, like I said, they are close.


OH DANG! ahaha my bad. Those are some impressive numbers then for the honda because normally aren't they normally low on tq? Either way, I love the look of the new SI and I am an enthusiast so many cars turn my head.....not just bimmers.

I was talking about torque to the wheels. Check the link I gave. 150-ft-lbs TO THE WHEELS for the Si. I have seen dynos of modded 325's in here at about 165 ft-lbs at the wheels, so, like I said, they are close.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2007-honda-civic-3.htm

How does it put put 150 lb-ft to the wheels with these numbers?

I was talking about torque to the wheels. Check the link I gave. 150-ft-lbs TO THE WHEELS for the Si. I have seen dynos of modded 325's in here at about 165 ft-lbs at the wheels, so, like I said, they are close.

I don't think that's normal. There are always freak engines out there, but Honda rates the car at 139ft-lb AT THE CRANK.

Unless there are an overwhelming number of these cars putting down 150ft-lb i would hardly call a single car conclusive.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Si

edit: WTF is up with the torque curve in that dyno you linked too? It's not linear at all, and jumps from where it should be to 150ft-lbs at ~ 5600rpm and then goes back down. seems like an error to me. The HP curve does the same thing, it looks bizzare.

those numbers confuse me simplify what u mean, a string of numbers is no good

There are many factors that go into each and every impromptu streetrace. Are you SURE that was an Si you raced? If you are, are you SURE that he was going all out in every gear when you pulled him? Because what we're debating here is one car being faster than another, eliminating driver skill or intention out of it, as we can never know what the other driver in this story was doing, or driving, for that matter.

Well I don't know why you decided to go ahead and steal my thread to talk about the numbers involved in which cars faster, but my SPECIFIC thread was about MY particular race, and still to this minute MY race. So if you want to linger here and keep talking about every single factor involved in which car is faster in every single type of environment, please stop posting on my thread and make your own thread.

PS. I am sure that it was a Si and if you want to go against me on that one too, you go right ahead, but in the end.... you weren't there.

EDIT: Actually go ahead, I want to see how much effort you can put into this one race to prove your point. :-)

And after the kill, he turned his wings on cause of the torque straight flew that shit away

mr hater carnuttt. LOL Yeah the Civic should be faster. But the avail HP of 197 claimed by Honda isn't always avail which in turn hurts the car on the freeway. In a 1/4 mile run given the weight, gearing, and the spikey hp that Honda gives at redline, then yeah it should be just as fast as the 328is 5spd.

no way, i don't believe

no way, i don't believe

don't believe what...? LOL

Well here's a link with corroboration and video of an Si running a 14.1 with ONLY AN INTAKE. Guess that shoots your "theory".

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1900138

I see the video but don't see the time. Does anybody see the 14.1?

I see the video but don't see the time. Does anybody see the 14.1?


Nope

i've also raced a new si in a near stock 98 328 5 speed. and the results were exactly as he said. as soon as i hit 4th and 5th gear it was obvious the 328 was faster

I see the video but don't see the time. Does anybody see the 14.1?

Nope

Go ahead, keep deluding yourselves. Download the .mpg file, and pause it with 18 seconds left. You will see the "14.15" on the board.

Let me clarify something: I do not, and will likely never own a Civic Si. My tastes have grown up quite a bit from these cars, that though fast, I feel are quite buzzy. My next car will likely be closer to another BMW (contemplating a 335i, after I rode in a friend's 335i) than any Honda product, as of now.

I am, however, going to have to read some BS in here in the future, if we don't set the standards here and now.

I don't think that's normal. There are always freak engines out there, but Honda rates the car at 139ft-lb AT THE CRANK.


The new SAE ratings underrate a lot of cars nowadays. Here's another one, dead-bone-stock, on a different day, different dyno, different conditions: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1936352

The numbers were 182whp and 133wtq. I will get the exact numbers today, and will also post the dyno chart.

Here's the dyno:

http://www.prostreetmotorsports.com/dyno/civicdyno.jpg

It's a shop, so feel free to call them up to challenge their claims.

That is certainly more believable than 199/150.

Go ahead, keep deluding yourselves. Download the .mpg file, and pause it with 18 seconds left. You will see the "14.15" on the board.

Let me clarify something: I do not, and will likely never own a Civic Si. My tastes have grown up quite a bit from these cars, that though fast, I feel are quite buzzy. My next car will likely be closer to another BMW (contemplating a 335i, after I rode in a friend's 335i) than any Honda product, as of now.

I am, however, going to have to read some BS in here in the future, if we don't set the standards here and now.

It took a long time but I was patient and downloaded the .mpg file. There was no 14.15. I believe I saw a 14.7, not 14.1. What is BS is you quoting 150 lb-ft of torque for a civic and not backing it up. But I'm sure you'll provide us with a dyno of that too. We'll be waiting.

As someone stated on your honda-tech, they're not supposed to be going much north of 170 stock. A performance shop that stays in business by the numbers they put down tells you something and you eat it up. Can you verify that it was indeed stock? Can you verify the car that was supposed to have put out those numbers? I hate to be a doubting "thomas", but that keeps me from being gullible. The more they give the perception they put out high numbers the more people will go to that shop wanting to attain those numbers. Besides, nobody here is interested in calling up a shop to challenge them. Who does that?

You said

" Here's another one, dead-bone-stock, on a different day, different dyno, different conditions: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1936352"

Is it not the same one you posted? We're still waiting to see the 150 wtq civic.

But I'm sure you'll provide us with a dyno of that too. We'll be waiting.

He did. Go to the first page.

edit: got it for you. http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416 I think its more of a fluke than anything, really.

I have owned a civic before, a 93 hatchback, arguably the best for modding, so I'm not a honda hater. Far from it, it was the most reliable car I've ever had, but hondas are not what you're cracking them up to be.

Anyone who believes that dyno should be sold air to breath!

It took a long time but I was patient and downloaded the .mpg file. There was no 14.15. I believe I saw a 14.7, not 14.1.

http://car-nut-forums.com/14.15.jpg

What are you going to do? Claim that is a "6" to the right? THEY ALWAYS SHOW TWO DIGITS, MORON.

" Here's another one, dead-bone-stock, on a different day, different dyno, different conditions: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1936352"

Is it not the same one you posted? We're still waiting to see the 150 wtq civic.

This post shows how much of a self-deluded moron you are. You never even bothered reading everything you are replying to. All you had to do is re-examine the links in my posts:

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416

199 WHP 150 WTQ.

Here's a post from another one who dyno'ed his car that day:


yeah I was impressed when i saw this (3 of us from this site dyno'd all at the same shop today), bolt ons will only work if the ECU is tunned which was proven by the dyno pulls we took. If me and Marvie (Sickyute) had a reflash or some other type of ECU tunning then we could easily see an extra 20-30hp. his first pull was 193hp and my first pull was 198.8 so we can definately say that with just basic bolt-ons(and no tunning) you can expect anywhere from 5 to 10 hp to the wheels. This IS PROOF THAT HONDATA NEEDS TO GET THE DAMN BALL ROLLING ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!! This also proves that honda tunned this car from the factory really well...197hp my ass!! this car is definately a 200+hp car from the factory, honda needs to change those numbers!!!!!!!!


And there's even a link to the video of the dyno!
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/A94A9712-A723-4015-BD5D-C538FE71F230.htm

He did. Go to the first page.

edit: got it for you. http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7416 I think its more of a fluke than anything, really.

I think it was more good conditions and a generous dyno. Everyone else who dyno'ed that day hit in the 190+ WHP, if you read the thread. Even at the 182 WHP mark, however, it is still making more power at the wheels than any stock E36 328, in a lighter car. Simple logic, but I guess "BMW logic" and "BMW horsepower" supersedes anything else in here.

I will call you an IDIOT but namecalling is not allowed here. You obviously know little about dynos, calibrations and shops putting out big numbers so they can get customers. All the stock civics were pulling 190+. Yeah right. I STILL do not see 14.15. You must see through that blur and the pole in front of it.

Does anyone know of a shop where my car can pull more at the wheels than it does at the crank? Carrrnuttt? This is just NUTS!

Does anyone know of a shop where my car can pull more at the wheels than it does at the crank? Carrrnuttt? This is just NUTS!

It's called underrating, you pathetic in-denial freak.


2003-2004 Mustang Cobras - rated at "390 HP" at the crank. Regularly dyno at 365 even up to 380 WHP stock.
Dodge SRT-4 - rated at "230 HP" at the crank, but regularly puts down between 220 to 240 WHP stock.
Cobalt SS - rated at "205 HP" at the crank. Have dyno'ed as high as 215 WHP stock.
Even the ultra-powerful C6 Corvette Z06. Rated at "505 HP" at the crank, it usually dynoes between 445 to 470 WHP stock, depending on conditions. Using a 15% to 18% drivetrain loss scale, the car actually makes closer to 530 to 550 at the crank.

Again, I want to call you a gullible IDIOT but I will not. The guys on honda-tech are saying the cars should not be putting out no more than the 170s so how do these guys all get into the 190s STOCK? Like I said, I have air I want to sell you if you believe that crap.

There are underrated cars. The honda civic is not one of them. There are also over inflated dynos. Sad you can't tell the difference.

How do you not see a 14.15? What other combination of two digits could form that shape?


It does look like a '6', but as carrrnuttt pointed out, they measure at the hundredths of a second.

Again, I want to call you a gullible IDIOT but I will not. The guys on honda-tech are saying the cars should not be putting out no more than the 170s so how do these guys all get into the 190s STOCK? Like I said, I have air I want to sell you if you believe that crap.

What's to be gullible about?

What will you believe? What the car owners thought their car SHOULD be at, based on the published crank numbers, or what they are actually dyno-ing?

Hey, how about THIS dyno, from Automobile magazine? http://www.automobilemag.com/multimedia/video/0610_2007_honda_civic_si_dyno/

Speaking of underrated, BMW rates the 335 at 300 crank HP. They 'should' dyno at about 245-or-so WHP, but yet are actually dynoing at about 290. Are the people dynoing the 335's being gullible? Are a LOT of people, including you, in here gullible?

What's to be gullible about?

What will you believe? What the car owners thought their car SHOULD be at, based on the published crank numbers, or what they are actually dyno-ing?

Hey, how about THIS dyno, from Automobile magazine? http://www.automobilemag.com/multimedia/video/0610_2007_honda_civic_si_dyno/

Speaking of underrated, BMW rates the 335 at 300 crank HP. They 'should' dyno at about 245-or-so WHP, but yet are actually dynoing at about 290. Are the people dynoing the 335's being gullible? Are a LOT of people, including you, in here gullible?

I'm not gullible but you are if you still believe all those civics were putting out 199/150 and crap like that. As someone pointed out 180/135 is believable. 20hp to the wheels is a big difference. People spend a lot of money for that kind of gain. I doubt there so much difference that some are running in the 170s and some almost 200. Some are in the 150s.

Check this out
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1849113&postid=25556515

You're basically saying these cars have 40+ whp than others. They are similar cars.

And this

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24023

And this

http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=56783

Even with tricks these guys didn't pull 190
http://www.urbanracer.com/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=1839

How did it go from 20whp to 40whp... lol

How did it go from 20whp to 40whp... lol

The link has someone saying he put down 155whp stock.
some of the other dyno links are showing ~180whp.
the retarded dyno is showing just shy of 200whp

So, it was 20 when he was referring to the 180who dyno vs the 200whp dyno. The 40whp is directed towards the fact that in the newest link he gave the guy claimed 155whp stock.

Sorry, but 40whp differences from the same engine in the same car is HUGE.

ok I raced my friends 07 civic si on both my 328is(modded) and 328ci(stock), way too many times from 60mph rolls from 80mph rolls ect.
there is no way you put 3 car lengths on the SI. I bet it was a ex with a si badge its really not that hard the SI doesnt have much difference exterior wise than the regular EX model just a badge,wing,rims anyone can put that on.
there are rsx type s with intake/header/exhaust hanging or beating m3's and the si is the same car except it comes with LSD.

the thing is everyone's only looking at horsepower man take a ride on the si and you will see the very short gear 6sp tranny makes all the difference in the world, it takes full advantage of all the available torque unlike the 328's long gear tranny/diff.
so sorry but BS

so I guess either he's lying, or the guy in the Si just wasn't a good driver. My bet is that he's a bad driver because i don't see any point posting a BS story...


but to sum things up:

when someone asks what you drive and you say BMW they sasy "nice!".

When they ask what you drive and you say a Civic, they say "oh...cool"?

I'm not gullible but you are if you still believe all those civics were putting out 199/150 and crap like that. As someone pointed out 180/135 is believable. 20hp to the wheels is a big difference. People spend a lot of money for that kind of gain. I doubt there so much difference that some are running in the 170s and some almost 200. Some are in the 150s.

Check this out
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1849113&postid=25556515

You're basically saying these cars have 40+ whp than others. They are similar cars.

And this

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24023

And this

http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=56783

Even with tricks these guys didn't pull 190
http://www.urbanracer.com/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=1839

Again, you prove your inherent ignorance of cars and tuning.

The 155 WHP run was an on a Mustang dyno, notorious for its low readings. Notice that on the Jackson Racing link, they baselined the same car at 171 WHP on the same Mustang-type dyno.

Check this: http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47063

There are lots of comments on this topic I know. What is the more precise measurement of true HP? http://www.z06vette.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif

I have a DynoJet run of 405 hp at the wheels and just got a 358 hp run from the Mustang.

This is a good reason to NOT like Fords.. http://www.z06vette.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif
I had a 352hp run with Vortex & borlas only....on a dynojet.

a 47 WHP difference on the two dyno-types, get this...

...ON THE SAME CAR!

Here's one of the better responses:
I suspect that you got bit by correction factor anomolies. Get a weather station and do your own correcting of raw data.

Let me guess, ALL the BMW's ever dyno'ed in here dyno'ed on a Mustang right?

Is it possible to have strong engines during batch production? Yes. Happens particularly with hand built engines. However, those are the exceptions not the norm.

The fact remains that you're gullible enough to believe that three guys in civics all pulled close to 200whp and 150+wtq dyno runs. What are the chances? In spite of dyno evidence contrary to those numbers, coming from other civic si owners, you continue to believe that is a norm. It is NOT! If I knew where you were I'd sell you hot air even though you seem to already have it in abundance. No doubt, you'd buy it too. Very gullible.

Don't turn this into a BMW dyno vs Civic dyno debate. I have owned a Civic before, and as I said b4, arguably the most popular for mods. I had it for 8 years and I don't bash civics or hondas. I know the civic scene well. I came from it.

However, your assertions, on these civics pulling those numbers are plain WRONG.

I am going to make this very simple for everyone....

IF you want to see proof that an 06 or 07 si will beat a 328 check the video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lpe28Qdj6ko

When a Front wheel drive car beats a rear wheel drive car off the line it is quite obvious what car is quicker

Nobody is disputing which car is quicker. At least, I am not. My civic ran much stronger than one would have expected, but within reasonable limits. The OP stated what happened. That is what happened in HIS race. I wasn't there, and nobody else was but him. You can't call BS on his story not knowing the circumstances under which it happened. The best kills are when an inexperienced driver in a faster car gets beat by an experienced one in a slower car. Otherwise all races will have foregone conclusions. In that case, why race?

The issue here is the claim that the civics are so underrated they're putting down 200 to the wheels and 155wtq STOCK. Again, that is not true.

i gotta tell you that the rsx-s and the new SI must have some sick engines to be able to stick with a 14 sec E36 M3 with just an i/e/h. My friend has a bone stock rsx-s and it felt very slow to me. As matter of fact i beat him with my 95 325is, but that was purely because i was the better driver.

Even with the rsx-s and the New SI being better cars to mod NA, I would still rather have a 325is or a 328is without a question. The feel of the rsx-s is rubbery at best. I did not like the way it felt at all. I would rather drive the crappy E36, but that is just my taste.

calling B.S. nice and early

Sorry man 328is is a nice car but 07 civic si are a lot quicker. Top end it wouldn't be a contest he would pull right away from you expecially with any upgrades. Your car is stock right?

+1 he said. if you weren't stock i'd believe your story.

Please. Feel free to supply me with said cars, and I will test it out gladly for you.


+1 he said.:lol

In terms of how these cars dyno i think that it is the fact that all the cars in that group are under rated. Civic si's have to compete in a class where there are many other much more powerful cars. A stock 06-07 Civic si stock will put down any where from 180-185whp and 130-140wtq every car is different. It really matters how a dyno has been calibrated and if the owner chooses to let his car cool off so he doesn't dyno heat soaked.

Hey look at the 2007 vw gti's they will make more than rated with around 185-190whp and over 200wtq. All i am saying is that cars in that class are a little under rated but for a 200wheel run in a 2007 civic it would be how they dynoed in terms of how they cooled the car and how the dyno was calibrated but not that the engine was super extremely strong from the factory.

Hey look at the 2007 vw gti's will make more than rated with around 185-190whp and over 200wtq.

Since you throw this little fella in the mix,...imagine such a small investment with GIAC and get another 40 - 50 hp. As much as I love VTEC, VW owns this match up.

It's prolly been said, but even if he should have won, an inexperienced driver can lose the race. Take it as a kill and be proud! :D

i haven't owned a bimmer in over a year, but if that SI is that much faster than a 328is manual, then it is pretty quick. I ran mine (before the accident) in Idalou, Tx at 14.6-7. It must be one heck of a car

BTW: The Si sounded like it had a CAI and also had some kind of huge ass exhaust, idk maybe a fart can... who cares? its a Si :D

Please explain to me what is wrong with a Civic Si? I track with a very good friend all around the south who has a 2007 Si w/ intake and exhaust only (suspension goes on next month) and that car is very very very impressive for what it is. It has no trouble getting 115-120 on the back stretch of Road Atlanta, looks great, handles great, gets great gas milage and was cheap. It will also run sub 15 in the 1/4th mile. I give him lots of respect despite the FF platform as the reliability/price combo on that car is hard to beat. O.P is quite naive

i raced my friends 4 door civic SI and yes it is a civic... i can attest that you cant beat it by 3 car lengths, but the 328is is faster. my friend has an intake and thats about it, and you can look in my sig to see what i have. i took him from a stop, 25mph roll and a 60 mph roll. everytime we went up to around 60-80 except when we did a 60-10 roll. he did keep up with me, but did not beat me.

sure the rsx type S and the SI have the same engine, but the SI doesnt have the same numbers as the rsxS. im not honda hater, as i did have a 92 civic with a h22 at one point.

The Si is no slouch. I'm not sure how it would go between the two cars all out at speed, but don't go ragging on the Si :stickoutt
sure the rsx type S and the SI have the same engine, but the SI doesnt have the same numbers as the rsxS. im not honda hater, as i did have a 92 civic with a h22 at one point.
Actually the RSX type S had a the k20A then the K20Z1 and the Si has a K20Z3.
K20A2

* Found in:
o 2002-2004 Acura RSX Type-S and 2002-2005 Honda Civic Type R (EP, European)
+ Displacement: 1998 cc
+ Compression: 11.0:1
+ Power: 200 hp (147 kW) @ 7400 rpm
+ Torque: 142 ft·lbf (193 N·m) @ 6000 rpm
+ Redline: 8200 rpm

K20Z1

* Found in:
o 2005-2006 Acura RSX-S
+ Displacement: 1998 cc
+ Compression: 11.0:1
+ Power: 201 hp (150 kW) @ 7800 rpm (sae NET Rev 8/04)
+ Torque: 140 ft·lbf (194 N·m) @ 7000 rpm (sae NET Rev 8/04)
+ Redline: 8200 rpm

K20Z3

This inline-4 cylinder internal combustion engine is found in the redesigned Honda Civic Si. It has an aluminum block with an aluminum head, and a bore and stroke of 86 mm*86 mm, resulting in a 2.0 Liter displacement.

* Found in:
o 2006+ Honda Civic Si
o 2007 Acura CSX Type-S
+ Displacement : 1998 cc
+ Compression : 11.0:1
+ Power: 197 bhp (147 kW) @ 7800 rpm (sae NET Rev 8/04)
+ Torque: 139 lb·ft (189 N·m) @ 6200 rpm (sae NET Rev 8/04)
+ Redline: 8000 rpm

well it all depends on what type of dyno he went, dyno jet, mustang be specific, and it laso depends what types of rollers the dyno is using

I'm curious....

Would my stock auto(steptronic) 2000 328i beat an 07 Civic Si?

My sedan has 193 HP, the honda civic SI site says it has 197 on the 6sp coupe...would I win?

I'm curious....

Would my stock auto(steptronic) 2000 328i beat an 07 Civic Si?

My sedan has 193 HP, the honda civic SI site says it has 197 on the 6sp coupe...would I win?

No. Not only is your car an auto, it's quite a bit heavier than both the Civic and e36.

If both drivers have similar skill, manuals and light mods the 6cyl. BMW will always beat the si........i have in mine.