I am debating which one to get: is350, 335i, and the TL-S (all new). The prices are fairly equal and I like the looks. I think the is350 is faster, followed by the TL then the 335i (correct me if I'm wrong). I was wondering what is your guys/girls' opinion on which vehicle I should get. Right now i got a 325i and I want a faster car, but still nice looking, not trashy.

do a search, this has been discussed.

a good "non bias" place to research would be edmunds.com
they also have a forum there and there is this exact question, and it also included the A4 and G35

ok thxs

www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison (http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison)

I am debating which one to get: is350, 335i, and the TL-S (all new). The prices are fairly equal and I like the looks. I think the is350 is faster, followed by the TL then the 335i (correct me if I'm wrong). I was wondering what is your guys/girls' opinion on which vehicle I should get. Right now i got a 325i and I want a faster car, but still nice looking, not trashy.

The TL is nice, but it is approaching the end of its life cycle, I wouldn't buy it unless I got a steep discount. The Lexus IS is also a nice car, but it only comes with an automatic transmission, and I recall reading they are being sold at a discount due to lack of customer interest (you may want to check in the Lexus forums). If my recollection is right, also in this case you should consider it only if you get a great price.
Of course the 335 wins for driving dynamics and performance: if you are an aggressive driver and don't mind 'paying to play' that's clearly your choice.

The 335 is fastest, then IS350, then TL-Type S....but you need an auto 335 unless you can shift manual at less than .100 milliseconds

If you want the best sports sedan, get the 335.

I drove the IS350 a week ago. It was very luxurious, quiet and refined, but it was not responsive at the lower RPM's. I would have never guessed it had 300+ HP and 270+ lb-ft of torque.

As a previous poster said, the TL is getting old. I drove the regular model a few years ago and it's a nice car, but it's not a BMW. Plus, it's FWD. I bought a TL in 1999 instead of the 328 and it was very reliable, but I regretted it for 7 years!

It all boils down to what you value most. Most of us want fast, great handling, reliable, responsive, good looking and affordable cars. But no car is perfect. So it boils down to how we balance all those needs. To a true enthusiast, the BMW is worth the premium. It's that simple. I'm finally going to follow my own advice and buy a 335.

D.

It's nice to be back! I haven't been on this board since 09-05. I had an '04 M3, but my wife HATED it, and I have to admit that I got tired of the ride after a year. (I have been driving race cars for 20 years, so I don't really need an imitation race car on the street.)

Anyway, here is the nitty-gritty on your question. I replaced the M3 with an is350. The only other car I seriously thought of was a Caiman S, and that did not "feel" as fast as the is350. (And it was $70K.)

Forget the front wheel drive Accura. The is350 is a very nice car, but it ain't a BMW. It has a lot of nice features, and if you can't feel the difference between it and the 335i, get it. You will save a lot of money with feature for feature, and there are a few features that the BMW doesn't have - cooled seats, touch screen nav., ability to watch DVDs while you are waiting at the airport, etc. But I am coming back to BMW. Once I drove the 335i, I said that's "the sweet spot". I have a handshake deal, and will formalize it this week.

Well, I thought I'd check out the IS350 before ordering my 335i. I thought the seating arrangement was terrible and I had a ton less head room than in the 335. Plus, I knew I really wanted the 335. I'm only 5'10" but have short legs and a long torso so I need a lot of head room. As for the TL, well, there are a ton of them out there and they are getting to be a dated design and it's simply not that unique. If you want a great performance vehicle, get the 335i.

Tom

TL Type-S = FWD. Steering, Acceleration and stopping are too much for the front wheels, especially for a sport sedan

Look sales numbers. 335 sold twice more than closet competitors. People are not stupid and know how to spend hard earned money wisely.

Lexus 350 should compre with 330 not 335.
335 is more fatser than 350, if u guys dont agree me, please find the result of 0-100 between 330 and 335. 330 can beats 350.

I am debating which one to get: is350, 335i, and the TL-S (all new). The prices are fairly equal and I like the looks. I think the is350 is faster, followed by the TL then the 335i (correct me if I'm wrong). I was wondering what is your guys/girls' opinion on which vehicle I should get. Right now i got a 325i and I want a faster car, but still nice looking, not trashy.

Are you really serious? Why would you ever consider a front wheel drive car? The TL is also quite stale. You have more dollars than sense.

Since the 2002 came out in the late 1960's/early 1970's, BMW has built the best sports sedans. And it's still true today! That's an amazing accomplishment.

It's easy to get distracted by a few thousand dollars difference in price, faster straight line acceleration, larger cabins, better reliability, etc., but if you want the best sports sedan, the same answer applies today as 35 years ago - BMW.

D.

TL Type-S = FWD. Steering, Acceleration and stopping are too much for the front wheels, especially for a sport sedan

While I agree that a sports sedan should always be RWD, to say that steering/accel/stopping are too much for the front wheels is asinine. The only time where this would come into play would be if you're tracking the car where you're putting constant stress on those components. Under normal use, you shouldn't have any issues, aside from a little torque steer.

The type s is a great car, but I would never buy one primarily because it is FWD. The handling characteristics are better left to sackriders and women. :D

Are you really serious? Why would you ever consider a front wheel drive car? The TL is also quite stale. You have more dollars than sense.


Looking into the E90 , so I've been asking plenty of questions, and doing my

homework.

Came back from the dealer, and service Dept today. While I was picking up

parts for the E46, I stopped one of the mechanics to pick his brain.
He let me look at one of the service cars, they had for a loaner vehicle.I also spoke to an owner that came in with a recent E90 325i purchase.

I was very impressed.

Whenever I get a chance to speak to a Bimmer owner, I notice how passionate they are about their cars. Makes me feel good to own one.

My advice is simple. You won't regret buying the Bimmer.

The only regret will come from passing one up.

Front wheel drive just doesn't cut it.

Think about it.

well, as of right now, I'm gonna go for the 335. Gonna test drive the 350 and 335 and see which one feels better. I have been hearing that fwd isn't too swell and the 350 doesn't perform that well at lower speeds. Thanks guys.

I test drove both and came pretty close to buying the IS350, its very nicely equipped for the money and its performance is pretty descent(sport suspension package). I liked the interior in the IS350 better than I like my 335i's interior. However if you want a drivers car that's still is very nice inside go with the 335i, I dont regret doing so for even one second.

Look sales numbers. 335 sold twice more than closet competitors. People are not stupid and know how to spend hard earned money wisely.

Ford Taurus was also the #1 selling car for many years...

I have an 05 TL and test drove the 07 TL-S. The TL-S is good for a front wheel drive car but it's a front wheel drive car. You can definatle feel the power increase from the TL to the new Type S but it doesn't even compare to the 335i. The IS 350 was nice but doesn't have the handeling or the tourqe at low RPMs.

Ford Taurus was also the #1 selling car for many years...
errr...I dont think the people that bought a ford tarus bought it for performance.

errr...I dont think the people that bought a ford tarus bought it for performance.

You missed the point...the point is that just because one car sold more than another car doesn't mean that it's a better car. Don't get me wrong, the 335 sounds sick, I was just pointing that out.

Got the shivers when I heard the words.....Ford Tuarus

Thanks,

Now I'll have nightmares for a week.

The Taurus sold well because it was a cheap commuter car, with horrible resale and reliability issues.

On the other hand, The 335i is selling strong because it represents a solid, reliable, true Enthusiasts car.

Owners of other models really admire the car.

Who can say that about a Ford Tyrannosaurus ?

I can hear the crickets from here....................

Very quiet.

I guess Ford has nothing to say.

well, as of right now, I'm gonna go for the 335. Gonna test drive the 350 and 335 and see which one feels better. I have been hearing that fwd isn't too swell and the 350 doesn't perform that well at lower speeds. Thanks guys.

It is interestiing. I considered these 3 cars too. The TL was immediately ruled out because it is FWD. Acura should have made it an AWD. It is a hell of a car. I have owned alot of Honda products.

The IS represents good value. The IS 250 was a lot cheaper than my 328. The IS 350 was a lot more expensive. Basically, the styling did not do it for me. I did not like the interior or exterior. I also did not like the fact that it only came in 2 door. I also did not like the fact that the IS350 only came in an automatic.

The styling of the Lexus turned me off so much, I did not even test drive it. The car does not look well proportioned. The trunk is too short. I also did some research on the internet and there was a lot of discussion about Toyita engines sludgin up and Toyota not making any restitution. So much forr Japanes engineering.

Point is, I was looking at the Lexus to save some dollars. I am glad I spent the extra money. I will get part of the premium back when I sell the car.

I have an 05 TL and test drove the 07 TL-S. The TL-S is good for a front wheel drive car but it's a front wheel drive car. You can definatle feel the power increase from the TL to the new Type S but it doesn't even compare to the 335i. The IS 350 was nice but doesn't have the handeling or the tourqe at low RPMs.

Finally! A guy without a BMW that talks sense!

reading about what other thinks to buy your car is stupid

go test drive all three -> best way to decide

Finally! A guy without a BMW that talks sense!


Listen to the Bimmer owners on this one.


The E90 is a great car. No doubt about it

Why would anyone desire a front wheel drive acura ?

over the new 335i ?

No way

reading about what other thinks to buy your car is stupid

go test drive all three -> best way to decide

If this were true no one would post or read threads like this. The reason getting other owners opinions is valuable is because it may shed light on something you had not previously considered, or even thought to. I would say that finding out as much as you can about a car before spending 40-50k on it is a pretty damn smart idea.

Yes, test driving all the options is mandatory, thanks Capt. Obvious! :eek:

The FWD TL will be fastest in the snow ;).

Does anyone consider snow as a factor in their purchase?

The FWD TL will be fastest in the snow ;).

Does anyone consider snow as a factor in their purchase?



Buy an E90 to drive like a maniac in the snow ?

Faster than who ?

The ambulance driver, taking you to the hospital for driving like a complete lunatic.

Who would risk cracking up a new E90.

Sounds a little silly, not to mention VERY foolish.

I know you like your Acura.

Sounds like a great car. I am sure I would enjoy driving it ( for what it is )

All things being relative and equal

You cannot compare the two brands.

Like comparing apples to oranges

I am sorry my friend.

The E90 is a fine piece of German machinery.

Your Acura will never substitute for that.

Not that you want or expect it too.

They are simply not the same performance wise.

Enjoy the Acura.

NSX is another story.

That is definitely a solid performer.

Acura could have produced a line, similar to it..

But they didn't do it.

BMW builds every car to perform as it should.

A true drivers car.

Can you say that about the Toyota Carolla ?

Even the RSX is nothing to write home about.

Not a bad car, mind you.

They fail to inspire.......to make a connection between the driver and the

road. I don't see many honda owners saying, yeah...this car handles like a

dream. Great performance in this honda.

Who says that ?

An E46 or E90 owner on the other hand.

Much to speak of.

Don't know how else to put it.

Why don't you drive an E90 for a few minutes.

Bet you would change your mind.

whats with the spacing on your post? i'm almost rather get hit with the wall of text than that...

Listen to the Bimmer owners on this one.


The E90 is a great car. No doubt about it

Why would anyone desire a front wheel drive acura ?

over the new 335i ?

No way

I'm getting rid of the TL. Should take delivery of my 335i in about two weeks.

I'm getting rid of the TL. Should take delivery of my 335i in about two weeks.


excellent choice on the 335i

There are so many forum members who love the car.

It's easy to see why.

Good luck with it.

It will be a little while before I can get a CPO

But well worth the wait.

whats with the spacing on your post? i'm almost rather get hit with the wall of text than that...


Not sure where I picked this up.

I think it was from a novel back in my college days.

The Bone People.........by Keri Hulme.


The whole novel wasn't written this way.


But it gets your attention.

Each line is a deliberate thought.

Not some incoherent rambling on a crowded page .

Or it could be from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

Did Hunter S. Thompson write this way ?

Could just be, i'm off my meds.

What this has to do with the E90 is beyond me.

This is my style.

:D

I have an 07 TL-S and an '07 328i...

In order to get even CLOSE to the same options in a 335i that my TL-S has, it would cost you about 10K more. I picked up my TL-S for $37,500 and a similar equiped 335i is 47-48K, so lets get that straight. Plus, that $37,500 is completely loaded, with EVERY SINGLE OPTION standard on the Type-S.

My buddy has a 335i, and while it is VERY fast, there's a few drawbacks compared to my TL-S which I find quite "deal breaking" for me personally.

1. The BMW nav sucks... period. Acura's navigation is known to be one of the best out there, and for good reasons. The voice-commands in the TL-S are flawless, easy, and works VERY well. The nav system is easy to navigate, and even easier to search for places you are looking for. Even my 335i friend says that he MUCH prefers my nav over his.

2. The 3-series is MUCH smaller than the TL-S seems to be. We had 4 full-grown adults in my 328i and it was very hard for them to get in the car comfortably, and not the best ride for the people in the back. We switched cars to my TL-S, and everybody was MUCH more comfortable.

3. The 3-series interior, while nice, does not seem as "comfortable" to me as the TL-S. I drive the 328i for a while, then get back into my TL-S and just have an "aaahhhh" type relief... hard to explain.

4. The 6-speed auto in the 3-series is nice, but again, I prefer driving my TL-S, with the instant throttle response. I can't stand the throttle lag associated with the drive by wire system in our 328i. I find a certain "lag" in the 3-series shifting that gets on my nerves, especially off the line under mild throttle. The TL-S with paddle-shift is nice, but I will say that the 3-series in "manual mode" shifts much faster.

5. Looks! The TL-S looks MUCH MUCH sexier to me out of the box. Even if the body is changing soon, it is NOT a dated looking design, and I get compliments on it constantly. Granted, with money and mods the 3-series can look great, but I don't want to spend another 5K on a car that already cost me 45-50K to make it look like I want.

Everybody that says they "rule it out instantly" because it's FWD is ignorant. I'm REALLY enjoy pushing my cars, and used to have a 400HP STI, and went from that to the TL-S. While I miss the HP, I don't find the FWD nearly as bad as I was expecting. That, and I'm VERY HAPPY going from a 400HP AWD car, to the TL-S, if that says anything! The only time I really experience traction issues, is either full throttle going around a tight corner at LOW speeds trying to accelerate through it, or when it's wet out. Other than that the FWD in the TL-S is quite impressive.

The 328i we have is pretty much the same car as the 335i, with less HP. Speed aside, I find myself wanting to get back to drive my TL-S a lot of times, because of the comfort and features that I miss driving my 328i.

If you want to stay under 40K and get a car that's LOADED and will use the features such as Nav, bluetooth, etc... get the TL-S.

If you don't care about the Nav and other fancy options, are ok with paying a little more, and want a car that is truly and ridiculously fast... get the 335i.

The IS350 is nice, but I can't really talk much about it, since I haven't driven one.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me!

Listen to the Bimmer owners on this one.


The E90 is a great car. No doubt about it

Why would anyone desire a front wheel drive acura ?

over the new 335i ?

No way
Because there's more to a car than just how fast it goes... ;)

The TL is nice looking, but no where near as cool as a 335 with sport. That's not even so much opinion as fact.

The TL is nice looking, but no where near as cool as a 335 with sport. That's not even so much opinion as fact.
It's "fact" lol Are you talking TL, or TL Type-S?

Funny, because a guy at work (my good buddy) just picked up his 335i sport, and I was outside with 2 of the secretary's....

I said, "Hey look at his new BMW, it's nice huh?"

They said, "Yeah it's pretty.... but your blue car looks much better still!"

So much for fact. ;)

Yes, the TL is a very pretty, albeit in a feminine way, car.

Yes, the TL is a very pretty, albeit in a feminine way, car.
I can see this won't be a mature debate, so I'm going to go ahead and stop replying to your posts, right abooouuuutt...... now.

Well, ask 10 people, and get 10 oppenions. The main thing is to build your own.
BMW is a type of a car which either you love or you don't. There are other cars which are very good cars, and there is a BMW which is a bit different from others.
All depends on your preference: conveniance -> performance - go with 350 or TL, performance -> conveniance - BMW.
BMW is built for driving entusiasts. It's as far as driver's car as you can get in terms of an every day machina. (Porche Ferrari etc. are not every day cars imo).
Hope it helps.

I myself used to own a IS350 and loved it very much I thought it handled great and was fairly fast I never really got into the whole paddle shift thing just b/c driving manuals all my life a paddle shift wasn't doing anything for me. All that was before I drove and bought my 335i which in my opinion beats the crap out of the Is350 and the Type-S even though I've never driven the Acura. I'm that confident in the performance difference. Although the Lexus was better for long distance drives just b/c the seats were more like easy chairs than performance bucket seats. Just do a little research and pick which one is best for YOU it is after all your 40+grand. Best of luck.

The FWD TL will be fastest in the snow ;).

Does anyone consider snow as a factor in their purchase?

Not here. I'm a bit south of Medford!

For the OP, all of them are good cars. I am really happy with my new 335, but I think you'd like any of them. Personally I like Honda products better than Toyota products. I'd also say a lot of it depends on how you fit in the car and the seats. The only way to find out is to go try them.

Having said all that the more I drive my car the happier I am with it. :D

Well, ask 10 people, and get 10 oppenions. The main thing is to build your own.
BMW is a type of a car which either you love or you don't. There are other cars which are very good cars, and there is a BMW which is a bit different from others.
All depends on your preference: conveniance -> performance - go with 350 or TL, performance -> conveniance - BMW.
BMW is built for driving entusiasts. It's as far as driver's car as you can get in terms of an every day machina. (Porche Ferrari etc. are not every day cars imo).
Hope it helps.What's percentage of driving entusiasts own BMW? I consider maybe 10%. Most of BMW owners drive really crappy, so I consider the rest 90% buy BMW because badge.

First, let me appeal to Converted that we keep these forums as friendly as possibly and not call each other "ignorant" or engage in any other form of personal attacks. We are car enthusiasts and it's hard to find others that share our love of cars. Most people think we're nuts. We come here to share our enthusiasm and learn a few things. We should be able to disagree and not resort to mud slinging. Ok?

Getting back to topic of this thread, I've owned many BMW, Mercedes, Acura, Honda, Mazda, Toyota and Triumph autos over 40 years. I think the issue we all face is how to balance sportiness, luxury/comfort, reliability and cost.

If you want a sporty car that emphasizes reliability and cost, you can't go wrong with the TL.

If you want a sporty car that emphasizes reliability and luxury/comfort, you can't go wrong with the IS350.

But if you want the best sports sedan, you should buy the 335. While it's true that FWD cars keep getting better, you simply can't get a car with a 60/40 weight distribution to handle as well as a car with a 50/50 distribution. Just read Road & Track and Car & Driver comparison tests for the last 30 years and you'll see what I mean. BMW is the undisputed king.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple because there are many factors that go into defining "sportiness" AND most of us want to blend the various factors before we make our decision. That's where I went wrong. I put too much emphasis on reliability and cost. I bought a TL that was a great value, but I never loved it. I'm coming back to BMW and buying a 335 because I value sportiness above luxury, comfort and value.

D.

What's percentage of driving entusiasts own BMW? I consider maybe 10%. Most of BMW owners drive really crappy, so I consider the rest 90% buy BMW because badge.

Well said! I'm sure most of the people tauting BMW's marketing phrases like "50/50 weight distribution" have never attended an HPDE or autocross. The fact of the matter is that the TL, although FWD, will satify the needs of that 90% of drivers for over $10K less than a comparably equipped 335i. Not to say the 335 isn't an outstanding vehicle, it's just worth noting that there is an increased price of admission for the extra performance.

Well said! I'm sure most of the people tauting BMW's marketing phrases like "50/50 weight distribution" have never attended an HPDE or autocross. The fact of the matter is that the TL, although FWD, will satify the needs of that 90% of drivers for over $10K less than a comparably equipped 335i. Not to say the 335 isn't an outstanding vehicle, it's just worth noting that there is an increased price of admission for the extra performance.
My father works on shift with my buddy that has the 335i, and they carpool almost every day. He rode with my in my TL-S last night, and couldn't say enough about it. He thinks its a much better car in almost all aspects except flat out performance, which I tend to agree with.

I have a BMW too, and I'm by no means an Acura fanboi... I just personally believe that unless you're 100% dedicated to needing the fastest sport sedan possible, the TL-S is THE best sport sedan out there, for it's price, reliability, re-sale, and features.

First, let me appeal to Converted that we keep these forums as friendly as possibly and not call each other "ignorant" or engage in any other form of personal attacks. We are car enthusiasts and it's hard to find others that share our love of cars. Most people think we're nuts. We come here to share our enthusiasm and learn a few things. We should be able to disagree and not resort to mud slinging

I never called anybody personally ignorant... I just suggested that making claims such as saying a FWD is automatically disqualified, etc... is an ignorant statement... because it is. :)

Until you've driven all the cars, or even a few of them, you can't make an unbiased review of them.

Converted: Here's exactly what you said:

"Everybody that says they "rule it out instantly" because it's FWD is ignorant."

You didn't say you disagree with them, you said they are ignorant. You can say anything you want. I'm just trying to raise the level of discourse among fellow enthusiasts. Let's unite in our love of fine cars and our hatred of idiots that clog our roads.

Once again, unqualified statements on which car is best must be interpreted to mean "given my priorities this car is best for me". Since we don't know each other, it's more informative to clarify our value systems when we rate cars. I'll give you a great example.

I test drove the Mazdaspeed3. It's a blast to drive, it's very fast (5.4 0-60 in latest Car&Driver) and it's half the price of the 335i. But it's rough and it's exhaust system is too "noisy" for me. But I'm 60; most of the people in the targeted demographic are 20-30, and they love the agressive exhaust sound. To them, it's a dream come true. To me, it's a headache.

D.

Converted: Here's exactly what you said:

"Everybody that says they "rule it out instantly" because it's FWD is ignorant."

You didn't say you disagree with them, you said they are ignorant. You can say anything you want. I'm just trying to raise the level of discourse among fellow enthusiasts. Let's unite in our love of fine cars and our hatred of idiots that clog our roads.

Once again, unqualified statements on which car is best must be interpreted to mean "given my priorities this car is best for me". Since we don't know each other, it's more informative to clarify our value systems when we rate cars. I'll give you a great example.

I test drove the Mazdaspeed3. It's a blast to drive, it's very fast (5.4 0-60 in latest Car&Driver) and it's half the price of the 335i. But it's rough and it's exhaust system is too "noisy" for me. But I'm 60; most of the people in the targeted demographic are 20-30, and they love the agressive exhaust sound. To them, it's a dream come true. To me, it's a headache.

D.

I laughed when I read most 20-30 love that loud exhaust...im about to turn 30 and I just sold my Dodge SRT4(very loud and aggressive exhaust) for my 335i. I couldn't be happier...crap, does this mean im officially old? :eek:

Also I just have to add that, I ruled out a Speed 3 as my next car because it is FWD. Comming out of a performance FWD(maybe the fastest you can own, until the Speed 3 that is..), even though I replaced the suspension allmost completely the SRT4 still just couldn't hang with a comperable(performance wise) RWD or AWD car in corners or off the line. Dont get me wrong I loved that SRT4, it handled VERY well for a FWD car. But after only a month in my 335i I can tell its superior in handling by quite a lot in stock form. I think I have a pretty good idea of what works best in corners since I crew for a race team that fields a SCCA Pro GT class Viper. I wouldn't say I am a genious when it comes to what car set up works best. But I wouldnt say im ingnorant by any stretch of the imagination. That said, it wont matter if your in a FWD/AWD/or RWD if you cant drive, you wouldn't notice the difference.

Converted: Here's exactly what you said:

"Everybody that says they "rule it out instantly" because it's FWD is ignorant."

You didn't say you disagree with them, you said they are ignorant.

I don't have to say "I disagree" to make that pretty obvious...

And people that automatically say a car is ruled out or useless because it's FWD, or for OTHER reasons... they truly ARE ignorant, and most of these people have never driven them, or even sat in them for that matter.

Same reason people bash SRT-4's because they're "Neons" :rolleyes They're ignorant.

So, what's your point exactly? I think I'm pretty damn fair with almost everything I post on here. There was no mudslinging my friend... and if you think THAT was mudslinging, you need to visit 99% of the REST of the internet.

Converted:

I made my points and you proceed to call even more people ignorant. I took a shot at trying to persuade you and I didn't succeed. Let's leave it at that.

D.

CountMontego:

The error was mine. You aren't old. Instead of saying: "20-30 year olds love the agressive exhaust sound", I should have said: "more young enthusiasts like an aggressive exhaust sound than middle-aged enthusiasts". How's that?

D.

Converted:

I made my points and you proceed to call even more people ignorant. I took a shot at trying to persuade you and I didn't succeed. Let's leave it at that.

D.
Called MORE people ignorant? Sorry, but anybody who discriminates against certain cars for BULLSHIT reasons is ignorant. Plain and simple.

We wouldn't be having this talk right now, if you didn't try to lecture me on forum etiquette... talk about starting stuff, huh?

I think the point is that the vast majority of people in the market for a sporty luxury car or a luxurious sporty car will be well served by the TL, IS350, G35 or the 335. Therefore, they should base their decision on comfort, convenience, ride, roominess, stereos, navigation, appearance, color combinations and other factors, not FWD or RWD. Most people never get anywhere near the limits of their cars.

I took a used 400E for a test drive once and the owner started freaking out when I took it past 3,500 RPM! The redline was 6,000 RPM. I couldn't believe it.

But if you are in the few percent that want the "ultimate sports sedan", you drive aggressively, you prize handling above everything else and you'll push your car to the limits, you should get the 335.

How's that sound?

D.

I think the point is that the vast majority of people in the market for a sporty luxury car or a luxurious sporty car will be well served by the TL, IS350, G35 or the 335. Therefore, they should base their decision on comfort, convenience, ride, roominess, stereos, navigation, appearance, color combinations and other factors, not FWD or RWD. Most people never get anywhere near the limits of their cars.

I took a used 400E for a test drive once and the owner started freaking out when I took it past 3,500 RPM! The redline was 6,000 RPM. I couldn't believe it.

But if you are in the few percent that want the "ultimate sports sedan", you drive aggressively, you prize handling above everything else and you'll push your car to the limits, you should get the 335.

How's that sound?

D.
Sounds great...

But you can drive just as aggresively with the TL-S, just not nearly the acceleration. My Buddy with the 335i is convinced my car takes corners faster.

Road and Track did a comparison of the TL-S, IS350, and G35. Guess which car did BEST on the skidpad and handling tests out of the three? The FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CAR... ;)

In fact, to prove that MOST people including yourself assume things, and don't do research, these are some skidpad G-force test numbers:

Lexus IS350 - 0.84

BMW 335i Sedan - 0.88

Acura TL Type-S - 0.91

That shows you that it handles as well, or better in the corners than the 335i does... So if you "prize handling above everything else" then maybe the Acura TL Type-S is the right car for YOU.

I have an 07 TL-S and an '07 328i...

In order to get even CLOSE to the same options in a 335i that my TL-S has, it would cost you about 10K more. I picked up my TL-S for $37,500 and a similar equiped 335i is 47-48K, so lets get that straight. Plus, that $37,500 is completely loaded, with EVERY SINGLE OPTION standard on the Type-S.

My buddy has a 335i, and while it is VERY fast, there's a few drawbacks compared to my TL-S which I find quite "deal breaking" for me personally.

1. The BMW nav sucks... period. Acura's navigation is known to be one of the best out there, and for good reasons. The voice-commands in the TL-S are flawless, easy, and works VERY well. The nav system is easy to navigate, and even easier to search for places you are looking for. Even my 335i friend says that he MUCH prefers my nav over his.

2. The 3-series is MUCH smaller than the TL-S seems to be. We had 4 full-grown adults in my 328i and it was very hard for them to get in the car comfortably, and not the best ride for the people in the back. We switched cars to my TL-S, and everybody was MUCH more comfortable.

3. The 3-series interior, while nice, does not seem as "comfortable" to me as the TL-S. I drive the 328i for a while, then get back into my TL-S and just have an "aaahhhh" type relief... hard to explain.

4. The 6-speed auto in the 3-series is nice, but again, I prefer driving my TL-S, with the instant throttle response. I can't stand the throttle lag associated with the drive by wire system in our 328i. I find a certain "lag" in the 3-series shifting that gets on my nerves, especially off the line under mild throttle. The TL-S with paddle-shift is nice, but I will say that the 3-series in "manual mode" shifts much faster.

5. Looks! The TL-S looks MUCH MUCH sexier to me out of the box. Even if the body is changing soon, it is NOT a dated looking design, and I get compliments on it constantly. Granted, with money and mods the 3-series can look great, but I don't want to spend another 5K on a car that already cost me 45-50K to make it look like I want.

Everybody that says they "rule it out instantly" because it's FWD is ignorant. I'm REALLY enjoy pushing my cars, and used to have a 400HP STI, and went from that to the TL-S. While I miss the HP, I don't find the FWD nearly as bad as I was expecting. That, and I'm VERY HAPPY going from a 400HP AWD car, to the TL-S, if that says anything! The only time I really experience traction issues, is either full throttle going around a tight corner at LOW speeds trying to accelerate through it, or when it's wet out. Other than that the FWD in the TL-S is quite impressive.

The 328i we have is pretty much the same car as the 335i, with less HP. Speed aside, I find myself wanting to get back to drive my TL-S a lot of times, because of the comfort and features that I miss driving my 328i.

If you want to stay under 40K and get a car that's LOADED and will use the features such as Nav, bluetooth, etc... get the TL-S.

If you don't care about the Nav and other fancy options, are ok with paying a little more, and want a car that is truly and ridiculously fast... get the 335i.

The IS350 is nice, but I can't really talk much about it, since I haven't driven one.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me!

Given what you said, why would you ever buy a BMW? You love the Acura, you think it is superior to the BMW in every respect, yet you are foolish enough to pay more money for the BMW, which you think is inferior. What kind of logic is this? It sounds like you made a very daft decision buying the Bimmer......or may be you don't even own a BMW? Show me a picture of both cars in your driveway, side by side.

The only flaw to comparing skidpad numbers is that they only measure ultimate grip. This can be influenced by tires (run-flat vs regular summer tires) more than anything. Also, the skid pad doesn't take into consideration how a car transitions when cornering, under/oversteer, etc...

But that .91g number is impressive.

I have an 07 TL-S and an '07 328i...

Everybody that says they "rule it out instantly" because it's FWD is ignorant. I'm REALLY enjoy pushing my cars, and used to have a 400HP STI, and went from that to the TL-S. While I miss the HP, I don't find the FWD nearly as bad as I was expecting. That, and I'm VERY HAPPY going from a 400HP AWD car, to the TL-S, if that says anything! The only time I really experience traction issues, is either full throttle going around a tight corner at LOW speeds trying to accelerate through it, or when it's wet out. Other than that the FWD in the TL-S is quite impressive.

Before we even have that discussion, why don't you first try convincing, the IRL, Formula 1, Ferrari, Mercede, etc. on the benefits of FWD as a platform for a race car or high performance sports car.

FWD was designed to save money when the Japanese developed economy cars. They saved money designing a FWD car with a transaxle instead of a drive shaft and RWD.

FWD has no business being in a high performance luxury car or a race car. Anyone who says different is, in your own words, ignorant. Ignorant of basic engineering design principles.

Given what you said, why would you ever buy a BMW? You love the Acura, you think it is superior to th BMW in every respect, yet you are foolish enough to pay more money for the BMW, which you think is inferior. What kind of logic is this? It sounds like you made a very daft decision buying the Bimmer......or may be you don't even own one. Show me a picture of both cars in your driveway, side by side.
I never said it was better in EVERY aspect, and I was mostly comparing it to the extra $10K cost justification. The BMW is a nice, refined ride for sure. I love the 6-speed auto, although a little laggy on the 328i. I love the adaptive headlights, the cruise control, and a few other things that make the car really neat.

My wife drives the 328i, and it's the car SHE wanted, so we got it. I wanted her to get the 335i since she was STUCK on getting a 3-series, but I wanted her to get the base model. She doesn't care about speed.

When you look at my car vs. hers, you wonder how the 328i could be more expensive, when it has NONE of the options, it's not nearly as fast, and it doesn't handle as well. The 335i obviously is a different story, but similar in other ways.

The point is, I love the BMW also, but just not as much as the Type-S if you're taking price into consideration. I think if some of you drove it, you'd see what I'm talking about. And not just for a quick run, as a daily driver.

Converted:

This is the last time I'm going to post anything directed at you because you are more interested in provoking people than you are in exchanging ideas.

You just said: "to prove that MOST people including yourself assume things, and don't do research". WRONG again. I've had articles published in the Roundel and other magazines and I've researched, test driven, written about and advised people on cars for 30 years.

There's more to handling than skipad results - like finding the right balance between ride and handling. Anyone can make a car do well on a skidpad, but will it ride acceptably? BMW knows how to strike the near perfect balance for enthusiasts.

If YOU DO YOUR RESEACH you'll learn that the consensus among all major car magazines is that BMW builds the best sports sedans. Period. Occasionally, a competitor will edge out a particular model in particular areas, but overall, BMW's superiority is undisputed as the best sport sedan.

D.

The only flaw to comparing skidpad numbers is that they only measure ultimate grip. This can be influenced by tires (run-flat vs regular summer tires) more than anything. Also, the skid pad doesn't take into consideration how a car transitions when cornering, under/oversteer, etc...

But that .91g number is impressive.
I totally agree, there's always factors you have to consider. My point is, it definitelty shows how the Type-S can handle just as well as most RWD and AWD sport sedans out there. The suspension and grip is truly amazing! This is my first Honda/Acura product, and I'm not a fanboi, I'm just really impressed with this car, considering the 37.5K price-tag.

If YOU DO YOUR RESEACH you'll learn that the consensus among all major car magazines is that BMW builds the best sports sedans. Period. Occasionally, a competitor will edge out a particular model in particular areas, but overall, BMW's superiority is undisputed as the best sport sedan.

D.

You're right, but that's mostly comparisons in a similar group category. The 335i and the Type-S are not even in the same price range, so it's hard to compare them.

I was simply showing you and everybody else that ruling out a FWD car, and saying only the BMW can give you the "Ultimate Handling Experience" is pure B.S. Sure, a lot of editors pick the BMW, and it does handle well, but if you were to score the cars, with similar options, with price taken into consideration, I'm sure the TL-S would edge out a similar-equipped 335i.

I'm not trying to mudsling, I enjoy these debates... I'm not trolling and I love trying to give helpful advice, please don't take my posts the wrong way. I just go overboard sometimes when people post things that are completely un-true when they haven't done the research, or driven the car.

FWD was designed to save money when the Japanese developed economy cars. They saved money designing a FWD car with a transaxle instead of a drive shaft and RWD.

FWD has no business being in a high performance luxury car or a race car. Anyone who says different is, in your own words, ignorant. Ignorant of basic engineering design principles.

Sorry, but it's hardly a cost saving measure. There cars just "work" well this way, and they design them around the fact it's FWD... they handle well, and my TL-S gets 30MPG on the highway...

How many 300HP cars do you know that get 30MPG? It's a great balance of performance, handling, economy, and comfort. It's not the best in any single category (except maybe economy) but it's DEFINITELY the most balanced, in ALL categories.

I totally agree, there's always factors you have to consider. My point is, it definitelty shows how the Type-S can handle just as well as most RWD and AWD sport sedans out there. The suspension and grip is truly amazing! This is my first Honda/Acura product, and I'm not a fanboi, I'm just really impressed with this car, considering the 37.5K price-tag.

We'll have to agree to disagree here...the TL will not out-handle most AWD/RWD sedans even though it has a great skidpad number. FWD will conspire to make the TL understeer (plow) like a mofo; there's just too much for those front tires to do at once. The ability to tighten up your line with the throttle is a great handling trait that the TL simply cannot acheive.

I like the TL as a luxury-oriented sport sedan, but the other alternatives like the 3-series, G35, and IS250/350 are better overall handling cars when pushed to 80% or more.

Sounds great...

But you can drive just as aggresively with the TL-S, just not nearly the acceleration. My Buddy with the 335i is convinced my car takes corners faster.

Road and Track did a comparison of the TL-S, IS350, and G35. Guess which car did BEST on the skidpad and handling tests out of the three? The FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CAR... ;)

In fact, to prove that MOST people including yourself assume things, and don't do research, these are some skidpad G-force test numbers:

Lexus IS350 - 0.84

BMW 335i Sedan - 0.88

Acura TL Type-S - 0.91

That shows you that it handles as well, or better in the corners than the 335i does... So if you "prize handling above everything else" then maybe the Acura TL Type-S is the right car for YOU.

:lol

Interesting...BMW 335i skid pad .88g...not sure where thats from. But if were using road and track as a source. Here are the data sheets from their web site.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0307_R_BMW_335i.pdf

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/3car_dp.pdf.pdf

I think you will notice that the 335i actaully posted a .9g. Also it was faster in the Slalom, which is a more acurate test of real world handling abilty. Looking at the data I also notice it was quite a bit faster to 60mph and 1/4 mile. I also notice that the in car DB level is quite a lot lower than the Acura's...gotta love that German build quality.

I think its clear that Honda did a good job on making that FWD as good as they could in the corners and Kudos to them. But sorry man, dont think you your Acura is going to be as fast around a track as the 335i is going to be, even if it was as fast on the straights. You can think your TL-S is all that and a bag of chips, thats fine. But dont try to say its going to out perform the BMW. :nono

We'll have to agree to disagree here...the TL will not out-handle most AWD/RWD sedans even though it has a great skidpad number. FWD will conspire to make the TL understeer (plow) like a mofo; there's just too much for those front tires to do at once. The ability to tighten up your line with the throttle is a great handling trait that the TL simply cannot acheive.

I like the TL as a luxury-oriented sport sedan, but the other alternatives like the 3-series, G35, and IS250/350 are better overall handling cars when pushed to 80% or more.
*sigh*

You're just assuming, based on other FWD cars, right? You need to drive this thing... it would shock the hell out of you. I push it 80%+ all the time, and haven't "plowed" into a guardrail yet... lol

But I know what you're saying using the throttle in corners, and in my STI it was great being able to floor it and not worry about it. The TL never makes me panic, and I haven't experienced understeer yet.

:lol

Interesting...BMW 335i skid pad .88g...not sure where thats from. But if were using road and track as a source. Here are the data sheets from their web site.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0307_R_BMW_335i.pdf

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/3car_dp.pdf.pdf

I think you will notice that the 335i actaully posted a .9g. Also it was faster in the Slalom, which is a more acurate test of real world handling abilty. Looking at the data I also notice it was quite a bit faster to 60mph and 1/4 mile. I also notice that the in car DB level is quite a lot lower than the Acura's...gotta love that German build quality.

I think its clear that Honda did a good job on making that FWD as good as they could in the corners and Kudos to them. But sorry man, dont think you your Acura is going to be as fast around a track as the 335i is going to be, even if it was as fast on the straights. You can think your TL-S is all that and a bag of chips, thats fine. But dont try to say its going to out perform the BMW. :nono
I never said it would do better on a track, and I KNOW that it wouldn't. I simply said it would hold its own better than most of you realize, and the only thing holding it back is the lack of HP/TQ in relation to the 335i, and obviously with that, comes traction issues.

I by no means am saying the TL-S is a better/faster/nicer car than a 335i... I simply said for the 10K savings its something people should look into if price is a concern, that is all.

I never said it was better in EVERY aspect, and I was mostly comparing it to the extra $10K cost justification. The BMW is a nice, refined ride for sure. I love the 6-speed auto, although a little laggy on the 328i. I love the adaptive headlights, the cruise control, and a few other things that make the car really neat.

My wife drives the 328i, and it's the car SHE wanted, so we got it. I wanted her to get the 335i since she was STUCK on getting a 3-series, but I wanted her to get the base model. She doesn't care about speed.

When you look at my car vs. hers, you wonder how the 328i could be more expensive, when it has NONE of the options, it's not nearly as fast, and it doesn't handle as well. The 335i obviously is a different story, but similar in other ways.

The point is, I love the BMW also, but just not as much as the Type-S if you're taking price into consideration. I think if some of you drove it, you'd see what I'm talking about. And not just for a quick run, as a daily driver.

I have test drove the Acura TL. This car represents an excellent value. If it were RWD, I would probably have one and an extra $10,000 in my bank account. I just didn't like the torque steer, the on throttler understeer and lack of traction in the wet. If it were AWD, I would probably have one. Your wife has good tastes.

I have test drove the Acura TL. This car represents an excellent value. If it were RWD, I would probably have one and an extra $10,000 in my bank account. I just didn't like the torque steer and lack of traction in the wet. If it were AWD, I would probably have one. Your wife has good tastes.
Oh yeah, in the rain... FORGET IT. lol

She really likes the looks, and I think the name, a little... lol

She does have good taste, she married ME! ;)

Oh, and there's rumors of the SH-AWD available on the next gen TL...

The TL-S does have a much improved suspension. Mine is an '05 with the a-spec suspension. I put the suspension on after a year and it drastically improved the handeling of the car. You get the same feel with the TL-S plus they have reduced the toruqe steer. The big challenge Acura has is being able to add more hp to the FWD platform. If the next gen TL has SH-AWD, it will be an awsome car.

I liked the additional power of the 335 and the feel of the RWD handeling. Just my perference. I did have to spend about $10k more to get all the gagets (Nav, heated seats, ..etc.) that are standard on the TL-S.

The IS 350 has rear seat room equal to the E36 3-series. It drives nicely and is really quiet, but my kids (now 10 and 12) are yearning for more leg room than my E36, and the Lexus won't deliver it. The 335i sedan is very impressive. Just needs a LSD.

First, let me appeal to Converted that we keep these forums as friendly as possibly and not call each other "ignorant" or engage in any other form of personal attacks. We are car enthusiasts and it's hard to find others that share our love of cars. Most people think we're nuts. We come here to share our enthusiasm and learn a few things. We should be able to disagree and not resort to mud slinging. Ok?

Getting back to topic of this thread, I've owned many BMW, Mercedes, Acura, Honda, Mazda, Toyota and Triumph autos over 40 years. I think the issue we all face is how to balance sportiness, luxury/comfort, reliability and cost.

If you want a sporty car that emphasizes reliability and cost, you can't go wrong with the TL.

If you want a sporty car that emphasizes reliability and luxury/comfort, you can't go wrong with the IS350.

But if you want the best sports sedan, you should buy the 335. While it's true that FWD cars keep getting better, you simply can't get a car with a 60/40 weight distribution to handle as well as a car with a 50/50 distribution. Just read Road & Track and Car & Driver comparison tests for the last 30 years and you'll see what I mean. BMW is the undisputed king.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple because there are many factors that go into defining "sportiness" AND most of us want to blend the various factors before we make our decision. That's where I went wrong. I put too much emphasis on reliability and cost. I bought a TL that was a great value, but I never loved it. I'm coming back to BMW and buying a 335 because I value sportiness above luxury, comfort and value.

D.


I think this just about sums it up.

If your going to make a comparison, then compare the Acura with OTHER
front wheel drive cars.

It isn't proper to compare them with the 335i

well I test drove the 335i... YES hah. didn't drive the 350 or the type S, but didn't like the looks (lexus) and not fond of fwd (yes I am ignorant.. shoot me, but it is my money... well parents hah)

As for the two girls fighting.

Your bickering helped me make up my mind (somewhat).

Btw, dude that writes liek this, it does catch people's attn.

Caught mine XD.

Well once my parents let me, I'm gonna go for the 335i. I liked the speed, instantaneous speed and looks. However the ride wasn't that good, but I blame it on the dealer that sat behind me and my kindness not to squash him like a little bug (He admitted that he had room afterwards due to be trying to fix my seat nonstop while looking 2 c if he's a dead bug yt XD).

All in all, 335i is the winner. Sry TL Type-S -- even though u were one of my dream cars, the Bimmer has no replacements.

Thanks all!

-- This prolly means i gotta change my sig... *sigh*

Well once my parents let me, I'm gonna go for the 335i.



Wow.. that's some pretty bad parenting.

Wow.. that's some pretty bad parenting.

Agree, earn it for your self IMO. Tough love is always the best. I am pretty young looking for nearly being 30 and I get all kinds of looks like i'm some rich spoiled brat driving Daddy's money. :stickoutt

Agree, earn it for your self IMO. Tough love is always the best. I am pretty young looking for nearly being 30 and I get all kinds of looks like i'm some rich spoiled brat driving Daddy's money. :stickoutt

I'm in the exact same boat... I'm almost 30 and still get carded for R-rated movies.

I wasn't really only talking about the whole "spoiled" thing, but it is probably a bad idea to get your kid a 300 hp car. I wonder if it comes with a big life insurance policy?

Acuras suck. It's nothing like a bmw I dont care what anyone says. They just flat out suck. So if you want one go and waste your money.

Instead of debating on front wheel drive cars.

Come over and wade in on the debate about the E90 in the E46 forum

It should be interesting.

Persuade us to buy an E90....if you can.

People are going to buy the e90 because they like the car the best and can afford it. If one of these criteria is not met, no e90. So you don't like the interior of the e90, you then need to weigh YOURSELF whether that is enough of a deterrent for you to not purchase one. The ramblings of a forum community should hardly be a consideration at best. Are they going to join you in the car each and every time you drive? No.

Subjective arguments ftl, especially on a forum.

naw I'm not spoiled. I work at my parents' business everyday/grades/good attitude/good at swimming. It is tough love, just a different kind. I am not at all spoiled. Unfortunately, I am too good of a child to make my parents buy me the 335i. So I'm just stuck with my sister's car as of now...

naw I'm not spoiled. I work at my parents' business everyday/grades/good attitude/good at swimming. It is tough love, just a different kind. I am not at all spoiled. Unfortunately, I am too good of a child to make my parents buy me the 335i. So I'm just stuck with my sister's car as of now...


That's good to hear.... I'm not sure where you live or where you go to school, but I would have never gotten a car like that in HS (not like my dad would have gotten me one in a million years anyways) because it would have alienated some/most of my friends (human nature). I was a "rich kid", but nobody would have guessed it. In all fairness, I grew up in rural/suburbia WI, not Beverly Hill (thank god).... so I undertand we might be talking about different worlds.

That, and buying a teenager what amounts to a race car is just not responsible...

My advice (for what it is worth) is to be "real" or "one of the guys" while you are a kid... there will be plenty of time for the lifestyles of the rich and (in)famous later on in life where people judge you on what kind of car you drive. :)

Although the 335i is not included... it shows the TL-S true potential against other RWD "luxury" sport models... And who says FWD is no good? Ignorance, just like I said.



Driven by professional DRIVER Keiichi Tsuchiya TL-S, G35, IS350 were going at Willow Springs, CA race track.

Guess, who is the winner?
Wrong, TL-S http://www.v6performance.net/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif . Yes FWD vehicle with less advertised POWER beat both RWD cars (http://www.v6performance.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1133015&posted=1#) full 2 seconds.


1. TL-S 6MT - 1:36:67 sec
2. IS350 - 1:38:24
3. G35 6MT - 1:38:67

And pics from Japanese magazine.
http://www.v6performance.net/gallery/data/500/13190TLS_4.jpg

http://www.v6performance.net/gallery/data/500/13190TLS_1.jpg

http://www.v6performance.net/gallery/data/500/13190TLS_3.jpg

The FWD TL will be fastest in the snow.

Does anyone consider snow as a factor in their purchase?

Nope, if snow was a factor, then I think everybody will be talking about the xi or is250AWD not the TL.

I don't think snow is a factor for this post.

Nope, if snow was a factor, then I think everybody will be talking about the xi or is250AWD not the TL.

I don't think snow is a factor for this post.
Exactly... I wouldn't argue snow for either car... lol

I had a leased 2004 330 Ci 6MT. I probably would have bought it had the buyout not been about 27k. I ended up with an IS 350 (which I've had for 5 weeks) after also test driving a new 328 sedan (in auto, ick...). The Lexus was 36k for a new car. I drove manuals previously: SLK 320, Solara v6, Celicas. Manuals for 15 years by choice. This is still a difficult comparison for me. Lots of positives and negatives for both...

Favor of the BMW 3series is:

-Better handling (though the Lexus is close, but still, not there.) The BMW has more road feel. I feel the road in the Lexus, but its a bit more of a passive experience. I'm not sure how better to describe it. Not so many winding roads in S. FL so its less of an issue, but still bothers me.
-Availability of the manual and the manual being absolutely great and truly instinctive and fully comfortable to drive (very rare.) I really do miss this. The Lexus manual in the IS250 (not available in the 350) is nowhere near by report. An IS250 6MT is probably like the Solara manual, which was very fair.
-Dealer installed ipod integration (not available in Lexus, a disgrace...)
-Exterior of the BMW is better looking.
-Oil changes at 15k, not 5k as in the Lexus. They are free in the BMW for a usual lease period.
-Standard BMW tires last longer (Lexus 18" tire life is estimated at 15-20k, ridiculous...)
-Less understeer in the BMW, essentially none in my everyday or enthusiast driving. (Its not that bad in the IS350, but its there. Significantly worse understeer in the Lexus GS which I also tested)

Favor of the IS350:

-17" wheels standard (in S.FL 18" is essentially standard.) 16" in a 328 sedan (granted not 335) as standard is ridiculous in comparison.
-Interior of the Lexus absolutely blows away the BMW. And, it is what you most see every day. I am so very very disappointed with the generic look of the new 3 series interior and total loss of driver orientation. As all know, the cupholders in the BMW look like they were stolen from a low end 1996 Chrysler, if that is not too kind.
-The center glove box in the Lexus, with an extra power source for a cell phone charger, is great and bigger, as well as the also larger passenger glove compartment.
-The IS 350 seats are FAR more comfortable than BMW seats. I do drive 32 miles to work each way. (I do wish BMW offered sport seats without the harsher riding suspension, but, that's always been a complaint of mine.)
-The IS is more reliable. I never heard of one dying.
-Keyless entry is kind of cool and standard.
-Stock stereo, except that the treble with is very fair at best, is better than my Harmon Kardon system in my BMW was. The midrange is outstanding for any car stereo I have ever heard. Base is very clean too.
-Ride in the Lexus is quieter (till about 80 mph where you get wind noise)
-Crosswinds affect the car less in the Lexus (potentially an issue here in S. FL at times.)
-Price of course is always a consideration.

Sigh...

Before we even have that discussion, why don't you first try convincing, the IRL, Formula 1, Ferrari, Mercede, etc. on the benefits of FWD as a platform for a race car or high performance sports car.

FWD was designed to save money when the Japanese developed economy cars. They saved money designing a FWD car with a transaxle instead of a drive shaft and RWD.

FWD has no business being in a high performance luxury car or a race car. Anyone who says different is, in your own words, ignorant. Ignorant of basic engineering design principles.

I don't know whether I'd go that far. If you've had the opportunity to drive one of the '98-03 STS Cadillacs, you might be surprised how pleasingly violent this car is off the line at WOT, with none of the ripping pull you'd expect from a FWD car. How they pulled that off in that design, we'll never know, but it sure didn't feel like a FWD car, even though it was.

That said, Cadillac concluded they needed to go to RWD if they wanted a luxo-performance car to be taken seriously; besides, eveyone else was doing that nowadays... so the subsequent/current model STS is RWD. and regardless of the doubters' nattering, that STS-V is a hell-on-wheels barnstormer of a car, nicely finished too.

None of which stops me from wanting a black on black 335i sedan really badly right about now. It was the Style 162 wheels that did me in... gorgeous!

v

it is probably a bad idea to get your kid a 300 hp car. I wonder if it comes with a big life insurance policy?

it probably does not, although i'm sure the auto insurance premiums on the kid's bimmer will make it seem like it does!!!

I don't know whether I'd go that far. If you've had the opportunity to drive one of the '98-03 STS Cadillacs, you might be surprised how pleasingly violent this car is off the line at WOT, with none of the ripping pull you'd expect from a FWD car. How they pulled that off in that design, we'll never know, but it sure didn't feel like a FWD car, even though it was.

That said, Cadillac concluded they needed to go to RWD if they wanted a luxo-performance car to be taken seriously; besides, eveyone else was doing that nowadays... so the subsequent/current model STS is RWD. and regardless of the doubters' nattering, that STS-V is a hell-on-wheels barnstormer of a car, nicely finished too.

None of which stops me from wanting a black on black 335i sedan really badly right about now. It was the Style 162 wheels that did me in... gorgeous!

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If you're looking for a black on black 335i sedan, I saw one for sale in Aliso Viejo on Autotrader website.

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