http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=245336

The Champ Car World Series Powered by Ford completed its pre-season practice session today with day two of Spring Training on the famed Mazda Laguna Seca Raceway in Monterey California.

Three-time defending champion Sebastien Bourdais led a contingent of eleven drivers under the lap record. Bourdais' fastest lap of 1:05.880 (122.295 mph) was nearly four miles per hour faster than the existing speed.

Helio Castroneves' track record of 1:07.722 (118.969 mph), established during Champ Car during qualifying in 2000 has stood for over six years.

The previous unofficial single-lap mark had been set last August during an exhibition; Toyota Formula One test driver Ricardo Zonta turning in a lap of 1:06.309 (121.504 mph).

Wow. I guess I never realized that champ cars are as fast, or faster in this case, as F1 cars. Thats pretty badass!

The Champ Cars were using "Power to Pass" during the qualifying sessions. I am sure Toyota just took the car out of the transporter and ran it. In fact, I think Toyota only made six, or so, laps during their attempt. Let's not start a Champ Car vs. F1 debate. They are nowhere near equal in performance. F1>all.

Christopher

Wow. I guess I never realized that champ cars are as fast, or faster in this case, as F1 cars. Thats pretty badass!

Well to be fair, neither Toyota nor Zonta are the fastest things in F1, and f1 cars are down probably ~300 HP to the Champ cars.

I would freakin LOVE to see F1 at Laguna instead of Indy tho... :(

Is Champ Car even going to be racing at Laguna this year? They didn't last year, so this faster lap time would make sense with the track/curbing revisions at LS last year. I believe this would be the first time a Champ Car has really been run since the changes. It is generally accepted that Laguna Seca is simply a faster track than it was the last time the Champ Cars were there.

The Champ Cars were using "Power to Pass" during the qualifying sessions. I am sure Toyota just took the car out of the transporter and ran it. In fact, I think Toyota only made six, or so, laps during their attempt. Let's not start a Champ Car vs. F1 debate. They are nowhere near equal in performance. F1>all.

Christopher


The purpose of the Toyota test was to beat the lap record. They were trying. Also, wasn't that particular car a V10? If so, the current V8s would be slower.

How do you know Bourdais used the extra boost on that lap? It was just a pre-season test...


Yes, F1 cars are quicker; but you can't say they are ''nowhere near equal''. A Champ Car is the closest thing to an F1 car, performance-wise. Champ Cars used to be faster (in the late-90's) than F1 cars...

Is Champ Car even going to be racing at Laguna this year? They didn't last year, so this faster lap time would make sense with the track/curbing revisions at LS last year. I believe this would be the first time a Champ Car has really been run since the changes. It is generally accepted that Laguna Seca is simply a faster track than it was the last time the Champ Cars were there.


Good point, but Zonta did his 1:06 with the new track changes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I_bWOdY6mbU

The purpose of the Toyota test was to beat the lap record. They were trying. Also, wasn't that particular car a V10? If so, the current V8s would be slower.

How do you know Bourdais used the extra boost on that lap? It was just a pre-season test...


Yes, F1 cars are quicker; but you can't say they are ''nowhere near equal''. A Champ Car is the closest thing to an F1 car, performance-wise. Champ Cars used to be faster (in the late-90's) than F1 cars...

They were running the TF106 (ie. v8).

Both CART and F1 run at Montreal so you can compare laptimes from that track. Champ Car pole was 1:20.005, F1 pole was 1:14.942.

One important thing that went unsaid is that F1 cars use grooved slicks, CC don't. True, Toyota and Zonta aren't top tier, but it's still F1.

Comparison aside, that is still an impressive feat.. and to think the next closest time was over 1/2 a sec slower during the session.

I'd like to see either of the top 3 F1 teams with their top driver have a chance at Laguna.

How do you know Bourdais used the extra boost on that lap? It was just a pre-season test...

“We didn’t particularly chase the record, although we used power-to-pass,” said Bourdais in reference to the brief boost of 50 bhp available on the power-to- pass option. “Cosworth made it available, so we used it . . . like everyone else."

Christopher

One important thing that went unsaid is that F1 cars use grooved slicks, CC don't. True, Toyota and Zonta aren't top tier, but it's still F1.

There are hundreds of differences between the cars...the grooves are only one of many HUGE differences. The F1 tires are probably far more optimized to the cars than the Champ car tires.

There are hundreds of differences between the cars...the grooves are only one of many HUGE differences. The F1 tires are probably far more optimized to the cars than the Champ car tires.

Don't Champ cars run 'spec' tires with only two compunds to choose from?

Didn't intend to set off this... Just an observation.

They were running the TF106 (ie. v8).

Ah.

Both CART and F1 run at Montreal so you can compare laptimes from that track. Champ Car pole was 1:20.005, F1 pole was 1:14.942.

That's the old Lola Champ Car...

There are hundreds of differences between the cars...the grooves are only one of many HUGE differences. The F1 tires are probably far more optimized to the cars than the Champ car tires.

Yep. When Zonda did the 1:06, there was a competitive tire war going on in F1, meaning he had very sticky tires. Champ Cars run a spec tire. That makes a huge difference...

During Toyota's trip to LS, they were on a relatively 'hard' tire. They said that they had stickier tires available that day, but decided not to run them because they already broke the track record.

Not the best F1 team, not their best driver, not their stickier tires...

one another topic, kind of related, Champ Car is moving towards standing starts to improve its appeal to the fans....very F1-ish and also trouble some.


....but it would make things alllll the more interesting.

one another topic, kind of related, Champ Car is moving towards standing starts to improve its appeal to the fans....very F1-ish and also trouble some.


....but it would make things alllll the more interesting.

So what does a 14 car field look like after a turn one wreck?

-Charlie

Charlie that was harsh of you to say that but unfortunately its true...hopefully Champ Car can find a way to be more popular again because it is the only true open wheel racing left in the states (IRL does not count imo).

Champ cars have 300 more HP, but are significantly heavier, aren't they?

F1 cars have a lot more money put into them and like Watts said, the tires are are better match on the F1 cars. 1 second is a big difference, and a Champ car doing that is a sign that the cars' performance is pretty damn close.

Champ cars have 300 more HP, but are significantly heavier, aren't they?

F1 cars have a lot more money put into them and like Watts said, the tires are are better match on the F1 cars. 1 second is a big difference, and a Champ car doing that is a sign that the cars' performance is pretty damn close.


The old cars were ~1500lbs and 750hp (over 950hp in the late-90's).

The new car is ~1300lbs and 750hp.

F1 cars are what, 750-800hp?

The old cars were ~1500lbs and 750hp (over 950hp in the late-90's).

The new car is ~1300lbs and 750hp.

F1 cars are what, 750-800hp?

I wish the new car was 1300 pounds.

Old car and new car are the same weight, 1565 lbs. minimum, without driver, all fluids except fuel. So with any appreciable amount of fuel, and a 170 lb. driver, it's actually about 1820 lbs... full fuel and it's about 1950 lbs.

Formula One cars are 605 kg, with driver (I think) -- so 1330 lb, plus fuel... around 1450 lb. So a good estimate would be 500 lbs lighter.

I believe you are correct to state that the V8 F1 cars are around the same power, 750 hp.

I'm still struggling with how a CCWS-mobile bested an F1 car... I know that CCWS was testing in near optimal conditions, and had 'Power to Pass,' so actually ~800 hp momentarily. CCWS also have bigger tires, without grooves... but there is such a huge weight difference. Hmmmm...

The Laguna Seca Open House was awesome!

The Champ Cars did do the standing starts! Seeing them light up the tires was great, I know my son loved it.

Bourdais broke the record on the last practice session which was pretty cool since he kept getting closer and closer as the day wore on.

Some thought he wouldn't try to break the record as he was stuck a few hundredths and lap times were not improving in the late session, but you could tell he was giving the car hell to break the record. He was flying through the corkscrew!

I made the mistake of taking my 4month old boy:nono He was terrified, but my 5yr old loved it. We even had lunch over the corkscrew.:buttrock :redspot

Overall, a great event.

The speed of the F1 cars and the Champ cars doesn't make for a very good debate because of the fact that neither is pure engineering... they are both constrained by rulesets designed to reduce speed.

The speed of the F1 cars and the Champ cars doesn't make for a very good debate because of the fact that neither is pure engineering... they are both constrained by rulesets designed to reduce speed.

Then what is pure engineering?

Aren't engineers always constrained by 'rulesets,' whether they be financial, governmental, or set by a race series?

Then what is pure engineering?

Aren't engineers always constrained by 'rulesets,' whether they be financial, governmental, or set by a race series?

Good point. The rule changes from year to year (grooved tires, wing width reduction, displacement reduction etc.) add additional constraints to the engineering. Without these rules, given the immense budgets in F1, cars would almost certainly go faster than the drivers could physically cope with/would be unsafe for the spectators.

My point is that at any given point, one race series or the other will be behind since it has new rules that at least in the short term reduce performance.

If Champ cars wanted to be faster than F1, they would create rules that would make faster cars. The same holds true for F1.

Good point. The rule changes from year to year (grooved tires, wing width reduction, displacement reduction etc.) add additional constraints to the engineering. Without these rules, given the immense budgets in F1, cars would almost certainly go faster than the drivers could physically cope with/would be unsafe for the spectators.

My point is that at any given point, one race series or the other will be behind since it has new rules that at least in the short term reduce performance.

If Champ cars wanted to be faster than F1, they would create rules that would make faster cars. The same holds true for F1.

I don't think that has ever happened in F1, but it did happen in Champ Car at Texas a few years back... drivers were passing out!

I wish the new car was 1300 pounds.

Old car and new car are the same weight, 1565 lbs. minimum, without driver, all fluids except fuel. So with any appreciable amount of fuel, and a 170 lb. driver, it's actually about 1820 lbs... full fuel and it's about 1950 lbs.

Formula One cars are 605 kg, with driver (I think) -- so 1330 lb, plus fuel... around 1450 lb. So a good estimate would be 500 lbs lighter.

I believe you are correct to state that the V8 F1 cars are around the same power, 750 hp.

I'm still struggling with how a CCWS-mobile bested an F1 car... I know that CCWS was testing in near optimal conditions, and had 'Power to Pass,' so actually ~800 hp momentarily. CCWS also have bigger tires, without grooves... but there is such a huge weight difference. Hmmmm...


Hmm. Champ Car's site says the new car is 165lbs lighter than the old car, which was listed as 1500lbs.

Hmm. Champ Car's site says the new car is 165lbs lighter than the old car, which was listed as 1500lbs.

F1 cars weigh 600kg (1320)

You have to take into account the layout of Laguna Seca as well. It is a mostly point and shoot course, but power to weight and loads of mechanical grip are the main things that are necessary for really fast lap times.

I haven't driven a car around it with significant downforce, but IIRC, the champ cars have more mechanical grip and are less reliant on aero...So as usual there are a lot of factors that could contribute to one car being faster at one course vs. another.

I raced at Laguna the day after Champ car was there, and I can tell you conditions were very very good that weekend.