Hi guys, I have been lurking here for awhile now while I shearched for a 635 to buy. Well I've found her, 1987 M6 from California. Getting it for a good price but needs some finishing.
Some dumb questions
-What is the power of the stock amp?
-Is the paint single stage or base coat/clear?
-Where can I buy a copy of the ETM?
- Is there somewhere on the web that lists all the differences between
635's and M6's?
-The car has 216K on the odometer, sorts of things I should be addressing on an engine with this many miles?
I know there's alot more questions that need answering, I just can't think of them at the moment.
Thanks very much,
Chris

Also,where can I find a list and maybe some pics of what wheels will fit this car? I'm leaning towards those BMW wheels that are dark inside with polished aluminum on the outer ring, very cool.
Chris

Hey there!

First thing to do is to log onto the website bigcoupe.com (actually no www is needed). Of course retain your membership here, but, that place is a gold mine of info. It leans towards the tech side, but they still have fun. I know I do when Im there.
I found a copy of the manual on Ebay, sorry, I cannot remember who I got it from, but, there should still be some offerings.
There are many things to monitor given that amount of milage, and I dont even want to start writing a text book in here. The upside is that if the previous owners were decent with the car and maintained it well, they tend to go a long way.
The Bigcoupe.com website should have you all covered for the watchable items.

Hmmmm...
Paint - the US M6's came in three colors Blue (rare), Black and Red. I'm almost sure the red is single-stage, think the black is and think the blue isn't.

Many differences between the M6 and 635, but for the '87 it was mainly the motor/suspension/brakes, "highline" (all-leather) interior, including the headliner and problematic leather dash that has been replaced by a vinyl one in many '87's. Check at the ///M Registry (http://bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=5) for lots of info.

Oof - 216K - any rebuild in the history? An M6 at that mileage can be a little scary. You'll want to know when the tensioner and rails were last done (the tensioner is easy - the rails aren't).

Check the Big Coupe Buying Guide (http://bigcoupe.com/buying.html) for info on checking out Sharks.

You may want to consider staying in the hunt for a nice 635, which is less likely to be a big financial exposure. I'd get as many records and details as you can and post here for some advice. (feel free to PM me, too)

Yah, big coupe group, I watch there too but there are so many ads that its very slow on my machine and all the replies seem to be four words long.
Ebay - of course!
The colour is blue with white interior.
Leather dash is toast and replaced with cracked viynl.
Don't have much history on it let alone rebuild info. Scary?! How?
I've already sent the money.
Timing chain tensioner I understand but not sure what rails are.
I have been shearching for about a year and there abousolutly nothing but
bags of rust up here in Canada( we use alot of salt in the winter)
So when I hit on this car in SF I jumped,no rust, lots of upgrades, my favorite
colours. Oh well, I have lost lots of money on other cars why should this be different.
Thanks Chris

Hmmmm...
Paint - the US M6's came in three colors Blue (rare), Black and Red. I'm almost sure the red is single-stage, think the black is and think the blue isn't.

Oof - 216K - any rebuild in the history? An M6 at that mileage can be a little scary. You'll want to know when the tensioner and rails were last done (the tensioner is easy - the rails aren't).

My Schwartz (black) M6 is single stage (No clearcoat). I agree that a 216K S38 will have to have been well cared for with a complete history to review. But if the price is right, just know that the S38 is expensive when the internals need attention.:)

Yah, big coupe group, I watch there too but there are so many ads that its very slow on my machine and all the replies seem to be four words long.
Ebay - of course!
The colour is blue with white interior.
Leather dash is toast and replaced with cracked viynl.
Don't have much history on it let alone rebuild info. Scary?! How?
I've already sent the money.
Timing chain tensioner I understand but not sure what rails are.
I have been shearching for about a year and there abousolutly nothing but
bags of rust up here in Canada( we use alot of salt in the winter)
So when I hit on this car in SF I jumped,no rust, lots of upgrades, my favorite
colours. Oh well, I have lost lots of money on other cars why should this be different.
Thanks Chris

??? - I don't get any ads at all at BigCoupe (unless you count the Google/Amazon ads at the bottom of the Forum, which are pretty static) The tech articles and buying guides are ad-free (at least w/ my FireFox 1.5).

Royal Blau is a great color - the rarest of the three offered in the US.

Swapping the dash is ugly but not impossible. I'll take cracked vinyl over the grossly warped leather any day.

The tensioner is what provides tension to the timing chain so your motor doesn't explode - even a non-mech like me can change it as I understand. The rails are the (plastic) chain guides deeper in the motor that essentially keep the chain on track. Much harder to relplace, and generally recommended to be changed around 100K miles. There there is some debate about that on US cars - some wait until the tensioner/rails begin to wear (on US motors) out completely and the chain begins to rattle. Considering a used motor is easily $4500+++ and a rebuild starts at $10K, I'm on the conservative side and am doing mine proactively. That is also why it is scary.

Another scary thing is the tranny - the 280 isn't incredibly reliable, and people want $1100-$1400 for used ones - a rebuild from the few folks who do it is around $2K.

I'm not trying to freak you out about your new car (especially if you are mechanically inclined and are planning to take aggressive care of it). I'd just try to get as much documentation/history as you can.

A pretty active forum (and my primary E24 home, though BigCoupe is a close 2nd) is over at Roadfly (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e24/).

Beautiful cars, guys. Thanks for the pix.

Sorry I did mean the Big coupe group fourm, I was talking about the roadfly
fourum, lots of ads.
So it sounds like I going to have to get up close and personal with this s38.
Can anyone advise me where I can get a manual for this engine?
My bently e28 manual doesn't cover it.
Thanks,
Chris

If you find a manual for this engine(that is not the Mobile Traditions CD), you will find that you will become very popular.:)

Great! How does anyone work on their engines, trial and error?
I did a search on mobile traditions and the newest entry says the CD isn't
available anymore. What is the going price for a burned copy?
Thanks,
Chris

Great! How does anyone work on their engines, trial and error?
I did a search on mobile traditions and the newest entry says the CD isn't
available anymore. What is the going price for a burned copy?
Thanks,
Chris

I do not know of anyone burning copies because it is a program designed to run on older computers with Windows 95/98 and less than 512MB RAM. There are work arounds to get it to work, but I do not know of anyone who has tried on Vista yet. You are running into the problems with trying to maintain a vehicle that was exotic back when only 1,767 were imported to the NA market. There were more of the Euro models brought in by private parties. But remember the entire model run only produced 5331 LHD cars and 524 RHD cars in the whole world. Numbers may vary slightly depending on the source. There were probably several thousand more of the engines used in the M5 but I do not know the correct number.

I do not know of anyone burning copies because it is a program designed to run on older computers with Windows 95/98 and less than 512MB RAM. There are work arounds to get it to work, but I do not know of anyone who has tried on Vista yet. You are running into the problems with trying to maintain a vehicle that was exotic back when only 1,767 were imported to the NA market. There were more of the Euro models brought in by private parties. But remember the entire model run only produced 5331 LHD cars and 524 RHD cars in the whole world. Numbers may vary slightly depending on the source. There were probably several thousand more of the engines used in the M5 but I do not know the correct number.

LOL - I think I have it on Microfische (sp?) - came with the car. I'm unlikely to ever get very deep in this motor myself, so I've never really looked to see what it is...will have to dig it up and look...

LOL - I think I have it on Microfische (sp?) - came with the car. I'm unlikely to ever get very deep in this motor myself, so I've never really looked to see what it is...will have to dig it up and look... I had a Microfiche for my 80 Euro but could never find the properly sized reader for it. Another BMW only item I believe.

My goodness, what have I bitten into?
Ohhh boy.
I'm a fairly decent backyard grease monkey, mostly Fords,British and Japanese. I think I'm ready for the Germans, we'll see.
Who knows, within two years I might be the foremost expert on the s38's.
I wish I could meet the reigning expert first.
It's like that saying in teaching hospitals, Watch one, do one, teach one.
Only I don't get to watch one first. It's the internal torque specs that worry me the most. You can usally just torque to feel on NA engines 99% of the time, but who knows what sneaky things those Bimmer boys have come up
with.
Any advice would be very appreciated.
Thanks ,
Chris

Another scary thing is the tranny - the 280 isn't incredibly reliable, and people want $1100-$1400 for used ones - a rebuild from the few folks who do it is around $2K.

I'm not trying to freak you out about your new car (especially if you are mechanically inclined and are planning to take aggressive care of it). I'd just try to get as much documentation/history as you can.



This is a grey area. The G280 is a beefy and hearty transmission. The key is proper maintenance and use. People who abuse the transmission will only find problems. Ive tracked a stock 153k mile G280 and it has been awesome, even though I find the G280 to be somewhat notchy, but that is the way it came from the factory.

The big maintenance key with teh G280 is the fluids you put in. For red/pink trans sticker put in ATF. For a green sticker put in MTL. No label, put in MTL, something like MT90. Youll see what I mean when you look at the front of the G280.

I have more to say about the S38B35, but that will have to wait for manana.

Thanks guys, I have requested to get on the s38/M88 mailing list, hopefully those guys can offer some help. Thanks for the link de Witt, by the way,
what is manana?
Chtis

Thanks guys, I have requested to get on the s38/M88 mailing list, hopefully those guys can offer some help. Thanks for the link de Witt, by the way,
what is manana?
Chtis

Tomorrow.

The S38/M88 list is a good resource. The members there have a depth of knowledge that spans the entire lifetime of these cars and they can pretty much give you an answer for any question.

Great! How does anyone work on their engines, trial and error?
I did a search on mobile traditions and the newest entry says the CD isn't
available anymore. What is the going price for a burned copy?
Thanks,
Chris

According to Bavarian Autosport's on line catalog, they still have the Mobile traditions cd for 6 series ($89.95US). This cd will run on XP Home but with no more than 512gig of ram. Pm me if you can't find one.

According to Bavarian Autosport's on line catalog, they still have the Mobile traditions cd for 6 series ($89.95US). This cd will run on XP Home but with no more than 512gig of ram. Pm me if you can't find one. If you get it, you may also need the work around for any version of Acrobat reader newer than 5 on some machines or 6 on all machines. Contact me after the install if you have problems.

This is a grey area. The G280 is a beefy and hearty transmission. The key is proper maintenance and use. People who abuse the transmission will only find problems. Ive tracked a stock 153k mile G280 and it has been awesome, even though I find the G280 to be somewhat notchy, but that is the way it came from the factory.

The big maintenance key with teh G280 is the fluids you put in. For red/pink trans sticker put in ATF. For a green sticker put in MTL. No label, put in MTL, something like MT90. Youll see what I mean when you look at the front of the G280.

I have more to say about the S38B35, but that will have to wait for manana.

Respectfully, I'm going to have to disagree with you. My M635 is getting a rebuild on its' third 280 in less than 85K total miles, and in preparing for that I talked to a lot of people about 280's as I considered doing a 280-->265 swap. These included both Jim Rowe and Jim Blanton about 280's, and both rated the 280 as less robust than the 265.

My car has been meticulously cared for since the original owner brought it over (to the Denver area - you might know it), and for reasons I don't know the original 280 was replaced by a 280-based Metric Mechanic "Ultimate" Transmission - think this was around 25K miles. That unit failed and was replaced under warranty around 47K miles (if memory serves, the records are down with the car, which is also getting timing chain tensioner, rails and double-row timing chain). When I bought it with 62K miles, I heard a "chunk" during my test drive shifting to 3rd, which I attributed to trying to shift the car like my E36 M3, but later saw that it was the first sign of synchros in 2nd and 3rd going bad. This is very, very common in the 280, to the degree that Jim Rowe tried to design his own syncros and eventually gave up, switching to a 265-based tranny for M5/M6 customers (which apparently is set up so that you don't have to replace the driveshaft like you would if you just dropped a 265 in). I feel pretty confident that this car hasn't been abused, though if you know any stories about it's past life, I'd be interested in hearing them.

Net: The 280 isn't the best thing Getrag ever did, though it is better than the dogleg. I've wondered if they didn't have a bad batch of syncros or update the design later, since I do see a lot of US cars with 280's that seem to have stood the test of time better. Nevertheless, the 265 is pretty much bulletproof.

I do agree that aggressive fluid swaps are a good idea (and so cheap that I don't understand why people don't do it every 3rd oil change).

Thanks guys, I have requested to get on the s38/M88 mailing list, hopefully those guys can offer some help. Thanks for the link de Witt, by the way,
what is manana?
Chtis

Well color me confounded - WHAT S38/M88 mailing list????

I drove your car on several occasions, if it is the Paul Hahn car (looks like it). :) It was maintained quite well by Paul and he was a frequent contributor to the old old old Mformation list in the mid-late 90s.

So you have a MM rebuild. Hmm, depending on the time of that rebuild, Jim Blanton might have done the work. Rowe, no offense, is not a transmission guru; Blanton is the transmission guru. He's been working on getting the G280 in better trim than from the factory. Blanton upgrades the synchro tabs and brass in place of the steel rings (which are also tapered).

A bundle of people complain about their G280, whether it be the synchro problem from 3-2 or the rattling noise at idle, which are the anti-backlash gears (removal makes the noise worse). However, I have owned 6 G280s and I currently own 3. They are all in fine shape, no shifting problems other than the typical notchy feel and the normal minimal rattle. I think it has to do primarily with how the car has been driven.

Rowe obviously feels the G265 is a fine unit to use on the S38/M88. Some have installed this, but Ive never driven one in a m-powered BMW. I do not think it is an upgrade, as my G280s have performed well, but I cant say it isnt something that should not be done.

Oh, Hahn did have the BMW microfiche reader, but I forget exactly what the size was, but they pop up on ebay regularly. Ill see if I cant dig up the size.

I drove your car on several occasions, if it is the Paul Hahn car (looks like it). :) It was maintained quite well by Paul and he was a frequent contributor to the old old old Mformation list in the mid-late 90s.

That name doesn't ring a bell, but I'd have to grab the records. I know he wasn't the original owner, who was the guy who had Fahey do all the work to the car.

So you have a MM rebuild. Hmm, depending on the time of that rebuild, Jim Blanton might have done the work. Rowe, no offense, is not a transmission guru; Blanton is the transmission guru. He's been working on getting the G280 in better trim than from the factory. Blanton upgrades the synchro tabs and brass in place of the steel rings (which are also tapered).

The original one (and probably the replacement) was almost certainly a Blanton tranny. I've wondered if the "other" reason Rowe switched to the 265 is that he didn't have Blanton any more, and the 265 is easier to work on, cheaper in terms of parts and far more plentiful in terms of cores. Still, I did talk to Blanton as well, and he wasn't overly positive about the 280 in general (though he didn't call it crap).

A bundle of people complain about their G280, whether it be the synchro problem from 3-2 or the rattling noise at idle, which are the anti-backlash gears (removal makes the noise worse). However, I have owned 6 G280s and I currently own 3. They are all in fine shape, no shifting problems other than the typical notchy feel and the normal minimal rattle. I think it has to do primarily with how the car has been driven.

I can't say for sure about the 1st 62K miles, but even hard-core ragging would be hard-pressed to drop this many trannies. I don't do anything crazy to this one, though I do drive with enthusiasm :). The 265's are loved by the E30 M3 race crowd.

Rowe obviously feels the G265 is a fine unit to use on the S38/M88. Some have installed this, but Ive never driven one in a m-powered BMW. I do not think it is an upgrade, as my G280s have performed well, but I cant say it isnt something that should not be done.

As I said, I studied this quite a bit - the ratios aren't dramatically different, and the 265 would be a little quicker off the line. In the end, I opted for more originality and less complexity (driveshaft et. al.)

Oh, Hahn did have the BMW microfiche reader, but I forget exactly what the size was, but they pop up on ebay regularly. Ill see if I cant dig up the size.

Boy would THAT be handy! I'd find some way to get those sucker's off microfiche!

Here are some pix of my car, just to see if it is the same one you remember (Cosmos Blau with Lama interior):
http://members.roadfly.com/iam4ecu/Cosmosesf.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/iam4ecu/clean4.jpg
http://members.roadfly.com/iam4ecu/cosmoseat.jpg
(ok - I'll use any excuse to post pix :D)

By the way, I'm not trying to arguementative. You clearly have some knowledge and background here - just offering what I've seen and heard.

Nope, that is not Hahns car. Hahn sold his off to a fellow a while ago, but it was a slightly darker color, almost like a malachite green, but it retained those same Hamman wheels. Plus, Hahn had a ton of microfiche on M88/3 and TIS and ETK etc etc, so when you mentioned you had microfiche from the OG, it clicked that it might be Hahns car. So I guess I am unfamiliar with your car :( which is quite a fine example. Also a rare combination. Whats the current mileage on the car?

Anyways, no problem with discussing the finer points of the G280 and G265. Blanton's rebuilds border upon mechanical works of art. It is not a surprise that Blanton did not care much for the G280, it is not a very friendly unit to rebuild.

Here is a link to the S38M88 list:

http://yahoogroups.com/group/s38-m88/


The fiche reader is a 7 x 9.5" carrier. Any reader will work as long as you have the carrier in teh proper size. Bell and Howell made one in this size that was popular.

According to Bavarian Autosport's on line catalog, they still have the Mobile traditions cd for 6 series ($89.95US). This cd will run on XP Home but with no more than 512gig of ram. Pm me if you can't find one.

How good is this CD? $89.95....Hmmmmm.

Nope, that is not Hahns car. Hahn sold his off to a fellow a while ago, but it was a slightly darker color, almost like a malachite green, but it retained those same Hamman wheels. Plus, Hahn had a ton of microfiche on M88/3 and TIS and ETK etc etc, so when you mentioned you had microfiche from the OG, it clicked that it might be Hahns car. So I guess I am unfamiliar with your car :( which is quite a fine example. Also a rare combination. Whats the current mileage on the car?

Anyways, no problem with discussing the finer points of the G280 and G265. Blanton's rebuilds border upon mechanical works of art. It is not a surprise that Blanton did not care much for the G280, it is not a very friendly unit to rebuild.

Here is a link to the S38M88 list:

http://yahoogroups.com/group/s38-m88/


The fiche reader is a 7 x 9.5" carrier. Any reader will work as long as you have the carrier in teh proper size. Bell and Howell made one in this size that was popular.


The car has 85K on it, and will serve shared time as a nice weather daily (7K miles a year max)

I'll have to put an eBay search on Bell and Howell... :)

How good is this CD? $89.95....Hmmmmm.

I haven't really checked through it all that well. It seems to be a knock off of a factory manual. My take is this: Any knowledge and help on these cars helps. I have purchased factory manuals on ebay just to have as much available as possible. There is a bookstore in Seattle that is nothing but car stuff, I can't think of the name at the moment, you can get a factory manual for euro models in english for around $130 US. So, I suppose it depends on how bad you need the info and how much you want to pay. Let me know if you need some help.

I haven't really checked through it all that well. It seems to be a knock off of a factory manual. My take is this: Any knowledge and help on these cars helps. I have purchased factory manuals on ebay just to have as much available as possible. There is a bookstore in Seattle that is nothing but car stuff, I can't think of the name at the moment, you can get a factory manual for euro models in english for around $130 US. So, I suppose it depends on how bad you need the info and how much you want to pay. Let me know if you need some help.

Despite their claims, the CDs do not have all the info. The absolute sources of info are the factory blue books.

Go here to download a FREE PDF file of the ETM for your year car (the '87 635/L6/M6 are in one ETM):

wedophones.com/BMWManualsLead.htm

Here is the online parts diagram with part numbers, enter your model and year:

realoem.com/bmw/select.do?vin=&kind=P&series=E24&arch=1

It's the internal torque specs that worry me the most. You can usally just torque to feel on NA engines 99% of the time, but who knows what sneaky things those Bimmer boys have come up
with.I have the factory fiche and it constantly tells me to torque things but never gives the torque values!!! It seem that BMW took all of the torques for all of the cars and put them in a pocket sized book so that the mechanics might actually use them. a PDF of them is on the BigCoupe Forum somewhere, I think in the Tech Articles.

Also, check out "BigCoupeGroup" at normgrills.net/bcg/ for their Tech Library and Mailing list (Not the same as "BigCoupe Forum")

How good is this CD? $89.95....Hmmmmm.If it is like the factory fiche, not very good IMHO. It is in a style I call "Military Moron" popular in the '80s. A column of pictures down the left with a sentence or two next to them like: "Remove part 4 and part 5" with no explanation of HOW to remove them which is usually why your looking it up in the first place! Better than nothing, but $90?? I spent my $35 on the Bentley 5-series, good systems descriptions.

Oh, Hahn did have the BMW microfiche reader, but I forget exactly what the size was, but they pop up on ebay regularly. Ill see if I cant dig up the size.I would be very interested in what size lens for the reader is required for the factory fiche! I currently have a "standard" US size and squint! I think I need a 48X or 50X lens?

Why won't the forum let me post "URL's" (links)?? Sorry, you'll have to cut and past and add the prefixes for the above links!

I would be very interested in what size lens for the reader is required for the factory fiche! I currently have a "standard" US size and squint! I think I need a 48X or 50X lens?

Why won't the forum let me post "URL's" (links)?? Sorry, you'll have to cut and past and add the prefixes for the above links!

You dont have enough posts to post URLs. Kind of stupid, but the admins have that in place to regulate spammers.

I think the correct lens is 48x. I have seen 72x but that is for ultrafiche and really out of control. We arent reading microdots.

Thanks,

I've got a 3M Consultant FP114 Micro Fiche reader with a lens marked "C" but no magnification markings. I can find lenses on the net for this reader but they are all identified by letter, I.E. "A", "B", "C" and no one seems to know the corresponding magnification!

Does any one happen to know about these lenses?

I have a full set of the Microfiches, and they are a different size, about the size of a 6X8 index card. The librarian thought they were some funky euro standard. I had more trouble getting it to fit in the reader than getting the right magnification. X25 seems kinda high, I think I was using X10 when I was reading it.

Thanks to all you guys! I really appreciate it.
I got on the s38/M88 site, went to the archives and started at the first post
of almost 4,000 and started reading. I'm up to about no. 2000 at the moment and the information is just incredible. Every time I come across a good peice
of info or a site that discribes a procedure I print it out so I have a hard copy. Once I've gone through all of it I'll try and itemize the best of it here so others can do the same if they want.
The car is on a transport at the moment coming up from Santa Clara Cal.
I get on about the 25 of March. The wait is going to kill me. I have some
pics of the car if anyone is willing post for me.
Chris

I can host them if you would like.

Shoot them off to:

bmwe28m5 ***@//// gmaildotcom

Ill get them up sometime today.