How many of you guys have something that covers you on track?

Guys, I have a buddy that is in the insurance business and he was just telling me about a program he has just started up that offers on-track DE insurance. I don't know all the details about it at this point but it doesn't seem like a bad deal. It an additional policy on top of your existing policy that covers any on-track incident as long as it is not a timed event. I am sure there are a lot more details than what I have said above. This isn't a sales pitch as I don't know all the details I need to know but more of a post to let you guys know what else is out there if interested. I know there are a couple of companies out there that do this and he can educate us more on them but this should be one more that offers great rates and good service.

Seth,
I'm the guy that got Chris' E30 in NC and I just double checked the details and actually pretty much ANY company will cover (on a Personal Auto Policy) HPDE's on track as long as it's not racing and/or timed. North Carolina even has it better then this in that our Insurance Commissioner makes the companies doing business in NC take out the entire exclusion for racing! Another words, if you have a NC personal auto policy and you wreck either in DE or even in racing, you would be covered.

Now, understand that the underwriters will try and cut these folks out in underwriting and weed out any racing exposure, but if you get it thru and are racing, you'll be covered! Just don't bet on them (or any other company) ever renewing your policy again!

But as far as HPDE's are concerned (speak to your agent and make your agent confirm with company) you shouldn't need any extra coverage for DE's.

Jeff Hall

How about Motorsportcoverage.com? They are a new sponsor this year for BMWCCA club racing. I don't know the first thing about them, but from the sound of their name, it might imply they could help in this area.

That is basically Liability coverage and off track and storage. We are talking here about driver liability and race car physical damage. Besides, Motorsportcoverage.com is really for full on racing groups and while I am saying that you may get coverage from your auto policy for racing, it's not intended to happen that way.

This entire tread got started with the coverage of driver laibility and car physical damage for HPDE's!

I do not have a "racecar" just my 99 M3. However I talked with my State Farm agent and was told that since it is a "Driver's Education" and you are furthering your driving skill. My M3 would be covered at the BMWCCA Schools.

Check with your agent. Tell them you would be using your own personal car and getting professional 1 on 1 instruction in car.

My car is covered :)

I do not have a "racecar" just my 99 M3. However I talked with my State Farm agent and was told that since it is a "Driver's Education" and you are furthering your driving skill. My M3 would be covered at the BMWCCA Schools.

Check with your agent. Tell them you would be using your own personal car and getting professional 1 on 1 instruction in car.

My car is covered :)


Just don't wreck it, cause those "good hands" get real slick once you have a claim and they may drop ya!

Seth & Jeff-

Sorry about deleting certain info from your posts but I cannot allow soem to advertise for free if others can't.

I know it's a help to those of us who track our cars.

If anyone wants specific info on these insurance offerings, they can PM you directly.

Thanks for your understanding.

Jay

Seth,
I'm the guy that got Chris' E30 in NC and I just double checked the details and actually pretty much ANY company will cover (on a Personal Auto Policy) HPDE's on track as long as it's not racing and/or timed. North Carolina even has it better then this in that our Insurance Commissioner makes the companies doing business in NC take out the entire exclusion for racing! Another words, if you have a NC personal auto policy and you wreck either in DE or even in racing, you would be covered.

Now, understand that the underwriters will try and cut these folks out in underwriting and weed out any racing exposure, but if you get it thru and are racing, you'll be covered! Just don't bet on them (or any other company) ever renewing your policy again!

But as far as HPDE's are concerned (speak to your agent and make your agent confirm with company) you shouldn't need any extra coverage for DE's.

Jeff Hall

USAA does not cover it.
k

Seth & Jeff-

Sorry about deleting certain info from your posts but I cannot allow soem to advertise for free if others can't.

I know it's a help to those of us who track our cars.

If anyone wants specific info on these insurance offerings, they can PM you directly.

Thanks for your understanding.

Jay

No problem at all. I just wanted to point out that I am in the insurance business AND into the SpecE30 group!

USAA does not cover it.
k


I actually believe USAA DOES include coverage for HPDE's now but may well exclude racing!

USAA does not cover it.
kHow do you know? I asked last year, and they said it was covered.

How do you know? I asked last year, and they said it was covered.


That was last year. As far as I know, State Farm doesn't not anymore. Confirmed this with a SF agent who is a BMWCCA member, other insurance companies are following suit...better check your policies in fine print!

Guys, it is pointless to talk about insurance on an internet board as everybody is covered by different policies. You really have to read your policy as to what is and is not covered (mostly the what is not covered in the exclusions). From what I have heard USAA will deny coverage out of a knee jerk reaction- doesn't mean that is the final answer. I have a friend in claims for SF and he says don't believe what an agent tells you as they don't have any authority to make such a statement. The only people that can tell if it is or is not covered is somebody in claims.

If NC is like Texas where the state writes the policy language- everybody is covered at DEs no matter who wrote the policy. If you state allows the company to write the policy all bets are off.

So coming on here and saying "Company X doesn't cover it" just doesn't work.

State Farm doesn't cover, I spoke with my agent.

State Farm doesn't cover, I spoke with my agent.

Not what mine told me.

Check your State Farm policy exclusions as mentioned above. I live in Indiana. Three years ago I went to State Farm becuase they had no exclusion and I had my agent confirm with the regional office who handles claims to verify in writing that I was covered which they did. Last year, when i received my policy there was an exclusion not just for timed races BUT FOR ANY EVENT THAT TAKES PLACE ON A TRACK.
When I found alternate insurance and canceled my State Farm, my agent asked why I was leaving. He was not aware of the exclusion change - too busy selling, I expect, because that is what he is in business to do.
I am not satisifed to assume because there is not a direct exclsuion that HPDE are covered. I ask the agent to get me a letter from regional or home office on letterhead and signed that my car is covered at schools.
After an accident is a rough time to find out you are not covered because you assumed you were.
And of those of you who think it is not an issue, last year I saw a Porsche Turbo trashed at Barber and 2 E36 M3 instructors cars with real serious damage at Mid-Ohio in October. It happens.

NY (and I think essentially all states) has statutes and regulations that require insurers to adopt certain basic provisions and minimum coverages. If an insurer writes a nonconforming policy, the nonconforming provisions are deemed invalid as a matter of law.

If NC and TX have laws on the books that effectively require coverage at HPDEs, that's great. I'm not aware of anything similar in NY

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if a carrier wrote a policy containing an exclusion for HPDEs in a state where they legally couldn't. Or try to disclaim for an HPDE incident where they don't have a clear disclaimer. Don't take anything at face value

If a general auto carrier is offering coverage specifically aimed at HPDEs, that might be worthwhile, regardless of the level of protection your state laws may be providing. Your carrier might not share the same view as to what it's permitted to disclaim. If the carrier has any wiggle room whatsoever, assume they will try to use it -- they may try even if they have none

1. Read your policy
2. Don't rely on what an agent or claims person tells you
3. Read your policy
4. Make an informed decision

What people should be very worried about is who pays medical costs if/when someone is injured. Does medical insurance cover that? If not, who will? That could certainly ruin any one in a flash.

How many of you guys have something that covers you on track?



Seth:

I had coverage on my track (E36) car. It was a 20% deductible policy and was 1.5% of the declared value. I insured the car for $25,000 for $375 per year. This also included theft, fire and drop it off the trailer insurance. Since the car was not insured otherwise it was a good deal. It does not apply to racing, and the insurance that I have on the new car (E46 build) is paddock insurance only.

I would think that a DE program would be useful for cars that are street cars that are driven in DEs. I would consider doing it again. Unfortunately the company that I used no longer writes this insurance.

Good to meet you the other day (Monday). We will certainly be pulling for the BW team this year.

Chris P. Lewis

Two things:

1. Every company's policy in every state is different. Read YOUR policy.


2. It doesn't matter what your agent or the company "tells" you, what matters is what is written in your policy in black and white. My USAA policy excludes "any activity that tests the skill of the driver or the limits of the car". Sure sounds like it describes a DE to me (and certainly racing). Company rep says said DE not excluded. What do you think the lawyers are gonna used against me?

My USAA policy excludes "any activity that tests the skill of the driver or the limits of the car".

Kyle, in what section is this wording on your USAA policy? I don't remember seeing that in mine. I will check it again once you let me know where to look.

Kyle, in what section is this wording on your USAA policy? I don't remember seeing that in mine. I will check it again once you let me know where to look.

Brian, you won't find that wording in NC policy; you are covered for DE.

Brian, you won't find that wording in NC policy; you are covered for DE.

Hmm, that's good to know. Medical also? I assume it matters not where the track itself is located, only that my coverage and my cars reside in NC? Thanks for responding. :)

OK, would all those in this tread that actually hold an insurance license please stand up!!!! Ok, maybe I am the only one that actually IS licensed so here is my professional advise.

1- Read your policy. It's a contract and it will be read that way in case of a claim. Every state and every company can be different. I will say this, the standard for the industry (ISO policy form) does not exclude DE's. The problem is not all states are using the standard ISO form and not all are using the most current and many of your direct writers especially make up there own forms (some good, some not so good).

2- If it does not exclude the activity your worried about (DE, TT, racing whatever) ask someone that know what these are. Most agents don't know the diff between DE and racing and even my employees don't (I do!). Most underwriters don't but you can find someone that does understand and if your agent is any good, he'll find them for you.

3- Get it in writing. We didn't but we have documented these conversations as to who and when and that is always good enough.

4- Be aware that if you have a claim, you will have a VERY hard time keeping or getting insure again. For that reason, you may not ever want to turn in a claim even if you are covered.

5- Don't count on it! After all is said and done, I wouldn't count on collecting from your personal auto carrier if you wreck your car at ANY track event! I own a Track car that I can stand to total if it happens but if I do hurt someone badly and I need liability coverage, I'll get it from my company for DE's. Racing and the people participanting should really count on there own insure and not appoarch the event with any thought of collecting or, god forbide, suing another driver.

It would be very hard to get liability coverage for racing cars and I hope we never need it. We should all ASSUME the same level of risk and not look to blame others, no matter what!

Kyle, in what section is this wording on your USAA policy? I don't remember seeing that in mine. I will check it again once you let me know where to look.

As I stated before (and I am licensed in NC!) the commissioner of insurance does not ALLOw that exclusion in ANY policy in NC! Now your underwriter may cancel you the minute they find out your driving on a track but that is underwriting not an exclusion.

Hmm, that's good to know. Medical also? I assume it matters not where the track itself is located, only that my coverage and my cars reside in NC? Thanks for responding. :)

Medical? Don't you have health insurance???? If not maybe you should wait of the track days and take care of more important matters!

No, it has nothing to do with where the track is, it's where your car and home are and where the policy is from and really what the policy says.

My Nationwide policy specifically excludes DEs per the following wording.

"Coverage Exclusions...

12. To a motor vehicle, while being used in any prearranged or organized racing, speed, demolition, stunting activity, competitive event, or driver's education course conducted on a racetrack; or in practice or preparation for such event or course."

Seth...PM sent.

I understand that bimmerforums needs paying sponsors, but I also think we should get the word out about any alternatives to Laurel. Laurel seems to be the only game in town when it comes to DE insurance in the US, and their new 30 day minimum makes them pretty darn expensive.

As I stated before (and I am licensed in NC!) the commissioner of insurance does not ALLOw that exclusion in ANY policy in NC! Now your underwriter may cancel you the minute they find out your driving on a track but that is underwriting not an exclusion.

So the underwriter can simply cancel someone just knowing s/he attends track events, regardless of whether or not s/he has ever filed a claim or even plans to?

There are any number of reason you can be cancelled. Most likely it won't be for HPDE's. If your agent understands the diff between the HPDE and other track events, they may be of help. But yes, it's very easy for companies to "get off" of a risk.

Hmm, that's good to know. Medical also? I assume it matters not where the track itself is located, only that my coverage and my cars reside in NC? Thanks for responding. :)

I think, with regard to collision damage to your car, and injury to you and your passenger, your primary auto coverage would be liable up to its limits (in NC). The big concern I have, is third party liability. While multi-car incidents should not happen, if I were to be accused of negligence causing damage to another driver's car, or, injury or death to an instructor or other driver, who knows? I bought a separate umbrella liability policy, but the exclusion wording in that is a little concerning, and it hinges on "competition". I'm reasonably comfortable I would be covered. But, if the worst were to happen, it would end up in court. IMO, a jury would take a no-fault approach to liability, in view of the instruction, safety rules, and waivers we all sign, and rule that we are on our own, without recourse to either the track, or each other. As with anything, if gross negligence is proven, that would be compelling, and someone would be opening their pocket book.

I think, with regard to collision damage to your car, and injury to you and your passenger, your primary auto coverage would be liable up to its limits (in NC). The big concern I have, is third party liability. While multi-car incidents should not happen, if I were to be accused of negligence causing damage to another driver's car, or, injury or death to an instructor or other driver, who knows? I bought a separate umbrella liability policy, but the exclusion wording in that is a little concerning, and it hinges on "competition". I'm reasonably comfortable I would be covered. But, if the worst were to happen, it would end up in court. IMO, a jury would take a no-fault approach to liability, in view of the instruction, safety rules, and waivers we all sign, and rule that we are on our own, without recourse to either the track, or each other. As with anything, if gross negligence is proven, that would be compelling, and someone would be opening their pocket book.


You must be a lawyer! Actually, the policy is pretty simple. The coevrage is there for third party as long as the exclusion isn't. So in NC where there is no exclusion for these types of accidents, you'd be covered. Now depending on the size of the act/claim, you may end up in court, but I am quite sure (100%) that you would get defense from your carrier, but the minute the limit is gone, they will be gone too! Un=mbrella, excess covergae, heck yes you better have it! And it should be from the same carrier as your personal auto policy and a "following form" format.

That is as good as it gets!

Kyle, in what section is this wording on your USAA policy? I don't remember seeing that in mine. I will check it again once you let me know where to look.

Rider came in an envelope all by its glorious self last spring.

I'm not an insurance agent, but I am an attorney. I wouldn't count on anything oral, and anything written outside of the original contract may not suffice either.

Rider came in an envelope all by its glorious self last spring.

I'm not an insurance agent, but I am an attorney. I wouldn't count on anything oral, and anything written outside of the original contract may not suffice either.

It got lost in the mail, I swear! I never got that letter....

If NC and TX have laws on the books that effectively require coverage at HPDEs, that's great. I'm not aware of anything similar in NY

It is not a law per se, it is that the insurance policy language is written by the state to be used by all companies.

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if a carrier wrote a policy containing an exclusion for HPDEs in a state where they legally couldn't. Or try to disclaim for an HPDE incident where they don't have a clear disclaimer. Don't take anything at face value

I would very much surpise me if an insurance company wrote a policy in state where they legally couldn't. They would probably lose their license to write policies in the state and would most likely incur a HUGE financial penalty. Not gonna happen. However, they can deny deny deny and hope that you will go away.


Realize that all of the offers for DE coverage I have seen are basically a supplement to your standard insurance. I don't have any insurance on my track car so I am SOL unless the company writing such policy would waive that requirement of having other insurance. Also realize that this DE insurance is cover your own vehicle. There are lots of discussions (recently on bf.c IIRC) that the assumption of risk would most likely preclude any awards for other damages somebody might claim. However, juries are not car enthusiasts and as long as it is legal and not obviously out of line with the facts, the jury can do what they want. last thing to realize is, most if not all of these companies will state a disclaimer that they are not legally authorized to sell insurance products in certain states. So you have been warned.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I don't pretend to be a lawyer, I don't play a lawyer on TV, nothing I have said is to be construed as being legal advice, I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.....so...YMMV.

It got lost in the mail, I swear! I never got that letter....By paying your premium you are agreeing to the terms. It would have been included with your bill. Anything real important, like cancellation of your policy you get by registered mail. I've gotten two of those already. You never get a registered letter from your insurance company notifying you that your rates have gone down.

Guys,

I'm sorry this has turned into such a debate. Please read your policies. Each state is very different and the exclusions are designed to be very broad. My friend Jeff in NC is incorrect, however, in the ISO language for exclusions.

I am quoting the ISO form for personal auto insurance directly- "Loss to 'your covered auto', located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of; a. competing in; or b. practicing or preparing for; any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest."

What do you think this means? What do you think your insurance company's interpretation of DE's will be? I didn't design this program because I want people to pay me money for something they don't need. I do DE's myself and I will buy this coverage because I know my current policy wouldn't cover me. It's a fact. Also, if it did not explicity say it I sure wouldn't want to either find out it didn't cover or that it would, but I would immediately be dropped afterward. Good luck to those chosing to do the latter because finding new insurance once you've been dropped by one carrier for an accident on a race track is not going to be easy or cheap.

The ISO language is manipulated by each carrier in each state. They determine what they want to convey in their policies. I can't tell you what your state does or does not do, you need to speak with your current agent on that topic. For a long time people have been trying to find a legal source for on-track coverage and now it is available. If you don't need it you certainly are not required to buy it.

This is not an advertisement, but advice for those who are confused by their policies. Please read and interpret as if you were the insurance carrier.

Thanks,
Chris

Ok, my final word on the subject. I have, in more then one situation, been able to change the outcome of a claim(yes even really big ones) based on the records the AGENT (key word, an agent is the representative of the insurance company) had of a discuss and details with an underwriter! So, if you have your agent get approval on most any subject and they keep really good records, you should be OK!

2 things to remember, one is that claims settlement is NEVER a science! Adjusters ask for and then read the polciies a client has. Then and only then do the adjusters try and make the right call. The other is this, if the AGENT (of the comapny) remembers the discussion with underwriting AND (big and here) will stand beside you in the case of a claim, you will likely be ok also. Just remember that with USAA and that type of company you have no AGENT and that with direct writers (Allstate, State Farm, etc.) your agent is an employee of the company (how likely to risk their job?), but a INDEPENDENT AGENT represents several/many companies but still as an AGENT!!!

I can and could go on and on on this subject. Best advise, find a GOOD independent agent you trust (ask around), get the accurate answer from the company, and then hope nothing happens and if it does count on your agent to help!

"last thing to realize is, most if not all of these companies will state a disclaimer that they are not legally authorized to sell insurance products in certain states. So you have been warned."

This is incorrect. Please read this carefully: Any company or agent selling "insurance" in the United States is legally required to be licensed. If the disclaimer says otherwise it is something you want to avoid. Also, do some research on the underwriting company and find out what their rating is. AMBest.com does rating analysis for all insurers.

Great Lakes Re, a subsidiary of Munich Re, is my underwriting co. They are A+ rated and typically underwrite catastrophes like hurricane damage and tornados. They insure other insurance companies for losses. Think they have enough money to pay for damage to your car? You better believe it. Think a guy that has a false disclaimer on his website can pay for damage to your car? I wouldn't want to take my chances.

Bottom line is this, read your policy, ask questions about the insurance, ask for ratings of companies, ask about licenses, etc. If they aren't licensed to sell than most likely they won't be able to remedy your claim from prison.

Chris

Guys,

I'm sorry this has turned into such a debate. Please read your policies. Each state is very different and the exclusions are designed to be very broad. My friend Jeff in NC is incorrect, however, in the ISO language for exclusions.

I am quoting the ISO form for personal auto insurance directly- "Loss to 'your covered auto', located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of; a. competing in; or b. practicing or preparing for; any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest."

What do you think this means? What do you think your insurance company's interpretation of DE's will be? I didn't design this program because I want people to pay me money for something they don't need. I do DE's myself and I will buy this coverage because I know my current policy wouldn't cover me. It's a fact. Also, if it did not explicity say it I sure wouldn't want to either find out it didn't cover or that it would, but I would immediately be dropped afterward. Good luck to those chosing to do the latter because finding new insurance once you've been dropped by one carrier for an accident on a race track is not going to be easy or cheap.

The ISO language is manipulated by each carrier in each state. They determine what they want to convey in their policies. I can't tell you what your state does or does not do, you need to speak with your current agent on that topic. For a long time people have been trying to find a legal source for on-track coverage and now it is available. If you don't need it you certainly are not required to buy it.

This is not an advertisement, but advice for those who are confused by their policies. Please read and interpret as if you were the insurance carrier.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris, YOU ARE THE MAN! And yes all states are different BUT not all DE drivers are there "for the purpose of; a, competing in; b, praciting or preparing for; any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest" . Many are there to become better drivers.

With that being said, I agree with you 100% Chris, if in doubt, by a policy designed for the event and Chris will have that for DE's, but also, in many states and with many companies (I check all of our companies and all agree) HPDE's are and would be covered events!

Sorry if you don't believe me and I am sure I have stated time and again to check yours out and do what makes sense, but I stand by my statement that many personal auto policies WILL and DO cover HPDE's. One of my companies which is a regional company in 14 states covers HPDE's on ALL of their policy forms!

"last thing to realize is, most if not all of these companies will state a disclaimer that they are not >>legally authorized to sell insurance products in certain states. So you have been warned."

This is incorrect. Please read this carefully: Any company >or agent selling "insurance" in the United States is legally required to be licensed. If the disclaimer says otherwise >it is something you want to avoid. Also, do some research on the underwriting company and find out what their rating is. AMBest.com does rating analysis for all insurers.

The most common company to get references when talking about DE insurance is Laurel (http://www.laurelde.com/legal.html). This is a direct quote taken from their website. You tell me what it means, because the way I read it states exactly what I said and is in direct contradiction to what you have said.

"The coverage you are requesting is from an insurance company that is not licensed in the United States of America or Canada.

This company is called a "non-admitted" or "surplus lines" insurer. This company is not subject to the financial solvency regulations and enforcements which apply to State, U.S. or Canadian licensed companies.

The insurance company does not participate in any of the insurance guarantee funds created by State, U.S. and Canadian law.

Therefore these funds will not pay your claim or protect your assets if the insurance company is unable to make payments as promised.For additional information, you should contact your insurance agent/broker, " surplus line" broker, the State Department of Insurance or Provincial Insurance Commission."


Chris, YOU ARE THE MAN! And yes all states are different BUT not all DE drivers are there "for the purpose of; a, competing in; b, praciting or preparing for; any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest" . Many are there to become better drivers.

You are missing the language in the exclusions that the companies are now refusing claims due to....that being "events occuring in places that are designed for racing". I have heard rumors (internet legends?) that people are being denied claims for fender benders at tracks that they are spectating at due to this language.

You are missing the language in the exclusions that the companies are now refusing claims due to....that being "events occuring in places that are designed for racing". I have heard rumors (internet legends?) that people are being denied claims for fender benders at tracks that they are spectating at due to this language.

Um, no I'm not missing anything. I am telling you that MANY companies are and will, willingly cover drivers at DE's. I know this for a fact because, A) NC for one, has NO exclusion like this and B) at least 2 of my major insurance companies have a POLICY that does cover DE's in most (and in the case of one co.) all the states they do business in.

So, if you take a company doing business in 14 states and figure how many clients they have, that would be alot of clients COVERED for HPDE's on track, right?

The disclaimer you are referencing is the exact one I thought you were. It is false and is taking surplus lines insurance disclaimers and twisting it to fit his situation. Every insurance company and agent MUST be licensed to sell insurance in the United States. If they are not it's not insurance.

I'm very familiar with the program you reference. I've done my homework. Try to find their underwriting company (not the life insurance carrier) and then try to find their rating. Ask the two guys that sell that coverage if they are licensed in either Canada or the US. They will tell you they are not. Ask the main guy about his legal issues in the US regarding insurance fraud.

I don't want this to turn into finger pointing and get into a debate about legalities. I know the laws and I know what is proper insurance. If you are currently buying from said program I would be concerned about where your money went and the legality of their program.

Chris

Chubb is one of the most financially stable insurance companies in the world, they are rated A++ and their specialty division underwrites most of my pro teams and risks.

This is taken directly from a personal lines auto policy for a client here in Ga.- "Competitive Racing- We do not cover any loss arising out of the preparation in, or instruction, practice or preparation for competitive racing in any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest."

I don't think a claims adjuster cares what your real intentions were, you crashed on a race track while driving fast in a environment designed to teach people how to drive fast safely, but on a track used for racing purposes.

Insurance is all about transferring risks that you can't guarantee yourself. If you don't think you'll be covered you are taking a risk. If you buy a supplement to your current policy you are transferring that risk to the insurance carrier. End of story. If you don't need it don't buy it, but if you are unsure do your homework. If you decide you need it then continue doing your homework to find someone that is legal and reputable.

Chris

Best advise, find a GOOD independent agent you trust (ask around), get the accurate answer from the company, and then hope nothing happens and if it does count on your agent to help!

This is all anyone needs to know, and the best advice of this thread.

Chubb is one of the most financially stable insurance companies in the world, they are rated A++ and their specialty division underwrites most of my pro teams and risks.

This is taken directly from a personal lines auto policy for a client here in Ga.- "Competitive Racing- We do not cover any loss arising out of the preparation in, or instruction, practice or preparation for competitive racing in any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest."

I don't think a claims adjuster cares what your real intentions were, you crashed on a race track while driving fast in a environment designed to teach people how to drive fast safely, but on a track used for racing purposes.

Insurance is all about transferring risks that you can't guarantee yourself. If you don't think you'll be covered you are taking a risk. If you buy a supplement to your current policy you are transferring that risk to the insurance carrier. End of story. If you don't need it don't buy it, but if you are unsure do your homework. If you decide you need it then continue doing your homework to find someone that is legal and reputable.

Chris

Chris , well put! Chubb is first rate and if their policy says "no coverage" then no coverage it is!

OK, would all those in this tread that actually hold an insurance license please stand up!!!! Ok, maybe I am the only one that actually IS licensed so here is my professional advise.

1- Read your policy. It's a contract and it will be read that way in case of a claim. Every state and every company can be different. I will say this, the standard for the industry (ISO policy form) does not exclude DE's. The problem is not all states are using the standard ISO form and not all are using the most current and many of your direct writers especially make up there own forms (some good, some not so good).

2- If it does not exclude the activity your worried about (DE, TT, racing whatever) ask someone that know what these are. Most agents don't know the diff between DE and racing and even my employees don't (I do!). Most underwriters don't but you can find someone that does understand and if your agent is any good, he'll find them for you.

3- Get it in writing. We didn't but we have documented these conversations as to who and when and that is always good enough.

4- Be aware that if you have a claim, you will have a VERY hard time keeping or getting insure again. For that reason, you may not ever want to turn in a claim even if you are covered.

5- Don't count on it! After all is said and done, I wouldn't count on collecting from your personal auto carrier if you wreck your car at ANY track event! I own a Track car that I can stand to total if it happens but if I do hurt someone badly and I need liability coverage, I'll get it from my company for DE's. Racing and the people participanting should really count on there own insure and not appoarch the event with any thought of collecting or, god forbide, suing another driver.

It would be very hard to get liability coverage for racing cars and I hope we never need it. We should all ASSUME the same level of risk and not look to blame others, no matter what!

Nicely done Jeff.... Actually.. all of Jeff's posts have been correct... The only thing I would like to amend is

3) Get it in writing....
PLEASE people. Don't go asking your insurance carrier to " put it in writing" that you are covered for an event....
No one at the company will, because ... YOU ALREADY HAVE IT IN WRITING... YOUR POLICY..!!!!
Demanding a letter in writing will only cause undue scrutiny and yes,
you very likely might get dropped.... Your non renewal won't say... "
wants to do HPDE events..." the underwriter will run your Motor Vehicle Registration, check for past claims,
and likely find some reason to nonrenew you as they don't want you as a risk.


There are 4 prescribed policy states... The policy is the same for EVERY COMPANY in these states as the Insurance commisoner/Government dictates so..

North Carolina - events NOT excluded (yay!)
Texas - Events NOT excluded (yay!)
Massachusetts - EXCLUDED - you don't have coverage if you are even thinking about going to the track
Virgina - ?? I can't recall, but I believe Excluded


Beyond that.... insurance policies vary by company, by state, and sometimes even within Companies under the same name...
(ie... Allstate Mutual vs Allstate Fire and Casualty, vs Allstate LLoyd's etc)

Read your policy. Read your policy... Read your policy.

Thanks, maybe after doing this for over 20 yrs I have learned something!

As far as DE coverage for those other states, I'd listen to Chris (soeed agent) he does his home work and odd's are VERY good that I will have both my track cars (Spec E30 and DE car) insured with him shortly. He knows racing, tracks and insurance. GET IT FROM HIM if you decide you need it!

Ok, my final word on the subject. I have, in more then one situation, been able to change the outcome of a claim(yes even really big ones) based on the records the AGENT (key word, an agent is the representative of the insurance company) had of a discuss and details with an underwriter! So, if you have your agent get approval on most any subject and they keep really good records, you should be OK!

2 things to remember, one is that claims settlement is NEVER a science! Adjusters ask for and then read the polciies a client has. Then and only then do the adjusters try and make the right call. The other is this, if the AGENT (of the comapny) remembers the discussion with underwriting AND (big and here) will stand beside you in the case of a claim, you will likely be ok also. Just remember that with USAA and that type of company you have no AGENT and that with direct writers (Allstate, State Farm, etc.) your agent is an employee of the company (how likely to risk their job?), but a INDEPENDENT AGENT represents several/many companies but still as an AGENT!!!

I can and could go on and on on this subject. Best advise, find a GOOD independent agent you trust (ask around), get the accurate answer from the company, and then hope nothing happens and if it does count on your agent to help!


I'll disagree here with one part here...

State Farm agents are not actually employees of State Farm. They are independently owned franchises that sell insurance solely for State Farm.
To that end they are no different than an independent agent. I would bet that Allstate is similar but I do not know that for a fact.

Gobuffs is correct in that there are some policies that have language that indicates there is no coverage while ANYWHERE ON THE PREMISES OF A RACING FACILITY... For example... you go as a SPECTATOR to a NASCAR race and you get in a fender bender in the parking lot as the crowd is leaving... No coverage.... nada... zip... thanks for playing... here are some nice parting gifts..

THAT'S how the Massachusetts policy reads...

I'll disagree here with one part here...

State Farm agents are not actually employees of State Farm. They are independently owned franchises that sell insurance solely for State Farm.
To that end they are no different than an independent agent. I would bet that Allstate is similar but I do not know that for a fact.


My Bad, maybe I should have said "exclusive" or even "controlled" agents? I have yet to run into either of those flavors that will do battle with "Home Office" on behalf of a client. I have personally called the VP of claim for 2 diff companies in the past 3 weeks and gotten things changed.

But your point is correct, thanks!

I would very much surpise me if an insurance company wrote a policy in state where they legally couldn't...

Me too, would probably be illegal, but I said write a policy containing an exclusion for HPDEs in a state where they legally couldn't. Whether through inadvertance or otherwise, I could see an exclusion slipping into a policy where it shouldn't (I didn't realize, though, that apparently only two states could fall into this category with respect to HPDEs). My point was not to take anything at face value, including what the carrier may tell you about coverage or an actual claim.

Plenty of good information and advice in this thread. I say that as a lawyer who has litigated against carriers in commercial cases.

Yes... Agents at State Farm do fight for their policyholders...They do not want to lose their good customers... Agents that have "bad" policyholders also want these people off their books as well.. These all affect the agent's profitability as the agent gets paid based on the loss ratio of their clients.

Having an agent as an advocate for you is invaluable... The people that hop from one insurance carrier to another over a savings of $100 a year are often the ones that either
1) no longer have an agent to fight for them
2) have not been established with that agency to really build a good rapport with their agent where the agent will go to bat for them...

As mentioned previously... there are good agents and bad agents regardless of the insurance company.. Just because an agent says something does not mean that they are a licensed adjuster or that the parent company is bound by what they say...!! (the legal term for this is estoppel). This is possibly a good example of why the agent is NOT a company employee?? However, a good agent will know how to find the right person to answer a question they don't know the answer to, or will consult with that person before responding to a query by a policyholder.

Virgina - ?? I can't recall, but I believe Excluded


when my newest USAA policy came in the mail, I read every line looking for a track-related exclusion and didn't find anything. if it's at a state level, would it still be in my policy?

Back on the original topic, here's some info about the new coverage available. See the third post down for someone who has signed up and has $ amounts listed for the coverage...

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=336026

I actually believe USAA DOES include coverage for HPDE's now but may well exclude racing!

I called and asked if they would cover a "Driver's Education". They asked some questions including where would the event be held. When I said Virginia International Raceway they said "NO". I then told them to take the car off of my policy as it was no longer driveable due to a tirewall :( .
k

I called and asked if they would cover a "Driver's Education". They asked some questions including where would the event be held. When I said Virginia International Raceway they said "NO". I then told them to take the car off of my policy as it was no longer driveable due to a tirewall :( .
k

It sounds like NC insurance is like Texas insurance...so their answer is wrong.

I called and asked if they would cover a "Driver's Education". They asked some questions including where would the event be held. When I said Virginia International Raceway they said "NO". I then told them to take the car off of my policy as it was no longer driveable due to a tirewall :( .
k

I saw your car last weekend and felt badly as I knew it was your first event in the car :( I'm glad you were okay, though. I was supposed to be Ken's instructor but we switched - sorry about your car.

At a DE, you're improving the driver's skills, not testing them, and
Racing tests the limits of the car - at DE's we run at 8/10ths,... don't we,... work with me here ... :cool
bruce


Two things:

1. Every company's policy in every state is different. Read YOUR policy.


2. It doesn't matter what your agent or the company "tells" you, what matters is what is written in your policy in black and white. My USAA policy excludes "any activity that tests the skill of the driver or the limits of the car". Sure sounds like it describes a DE to me (and certainly racing). Company rep says said DE not excluded. What do you think the lawyers are gonna used against me?

I called and asked if they would cover a "Driver's Education". They asked some questions including where would the event be held. When I said Virginia International Raceway they said "NO". I then told them to take the car off of my policy as it was no longer driveable due to a tirewall :( .
k


READ YOUR POLICY!!! The commissioner of the State of NC requires a DIFFERENT policy wording (as well onlined by several experts on this tread) and if you live in NC and get your policy in NC there is NO EXCLUSION for DE's or any track events.

That being said, you still may want to buy extra coverage and I got the details on Speed Agents plan and I would reccommend it!

Don't take the word of some half trained telephone operator in TEXAS!!!! Dump those cheap SOB's and buy your coverage from a local expert or isn't accurate information worth an extra 10% or less to you?

Penny wise and Pound foolish!!!

I saw your car last weekend and felt badly as I knew it was your first event in the car :( I'm glad you were okay, though. I was supposed to be Ken's instructor but we switched - sorry about your car.

B,
Thanks. Some lessons are more expensive than others. I hope to be back on the track this summer or at the latest in the fall.
k

READ YOUR POLICY!!! The commissioner of the State of NC requires a DIFFERENT policy wording (as well onlined by several experts on this tread) and if you live in NC and get your policy in NC there is NO EXCLUSION for DE's or any track events.

That being said, you still may want to buy extra coverage and I got the details on Speed Agents plan and I would reccommend it!

Don't take the word of some half trained telephone operator in TEXAS!!!! Dump those cheap SOB's and buy your coverage from a local expert or isn't accurate information worth an extra 10% or less to you?

Penny wise and Pound foolish!!!

PM'd you back.

Just checked my State Farm policy for car registered in Wash, DC. Effective on renewals on or after July 1, 2006, "[t]here is no coverage while a vehicle is being prepared for, used in practice for, or operated in any racing, speed, hill-climbing, jumping (!!), or other similar contest; or on a track designed primarily for racing or high-speed driving."

Neil

Just checked my State Farm policy for car registered in Wash, DC. Effective on renewals on or after July 1, 2006, "[t]here is no coverage while a vehicle is being prepared for, used in practice for, or operated in any racing, speed, hill-climbing, jumping (!!), or other similar contest; or on a track designed primarily for racing or high-speed driving."

NeilStill doing the One Lap?

have y'all seen this thread over at rennlist?

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=336026

sounds promising

have y'all seen this thread over at rennlist?

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=336026

sounds promising


That is the same post that started this thread.

Have a question that just popped into my head. Let's say you get on track insurance of the like that started this thread (I wouldn't qualify as I don't have any insurance on my car at all). Let's say you total your car and you get the insurance settlement on it. Who then owns the car? If it was regular insurance settlement, the insurance company owns the car. The only reason I ask is, I would figure that one could save at least some good part on a wrecked car that could afford you to have a lower level of coverage and come out in the same position. OTOH, if you have max coverage and then could sell off parts it might make up for the deductible.

Still doing the One Lap?

But, of course!

I've always assumed that I was not covered for any of that stuff.

Still curious about the jumping exclusion....

Neil

But, of course!

I've always assumed that I was not covered for any of that stuff.

Still curious about the jumping exclusion....

Neil

In other words, these guys won't be covered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqfN2XOIIno
(You might have to log in to view it, it has some language LOL) Keep watching til the end if you haven't seen it before, its a classic

Have a question that just popped into my head. Let's say you get on track insurance of the like that started this thread (I wouldn't qualify as I don't have any insurance on my car at all). Let's say you total your car and you get the insurance settlement on it. Who then owns the car? If it was regular insurance settlement, the insurance company owns the car. The only reason I ask is, I would figure that one could save at least some good part on a wrecked car that could afford you to have a lower level of coverage and come out in the same position. OTOH, if you have max coverage and then could sell off parts it might make up for the deductible.

If the car is totalled by the carrier and you get basically 100% of the value, the car is owned by the ins. company. Now that being said, you can always buy the car back. I have a client that got his '94 Mazda totaled by hail, he took thecheck and then bought the car back for around 15% of the check and has driven it now, with the dents, for 2 years!

have y'all seen this thread over at rennlist?

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=336026

sounds promising


Good program! I know the guy selling it (got my next Spec E30 car from him) and it's a good deal!

Buy some!

If the car is totalled by the carrier and you get basically 100% of the value, the car is owned by the ins. company. Now that being said, you can always buy the car back. I have a client that got his '94 Mazda totaled by hail, he took thecheck and then bought the car back for around 15% of the check and has driven it now, with the dents, for 2 years!

I meant the DE insurance, not regular car insurance.

I meant the DE insurance, not regular car insurance.

Most likely the same. No insurance company really wants a wrecked car. I'm sure you could buy it back. They just sell them to a junk yard or salvage yard.

In other words, these guys won't be covered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqfN2XOIIno
(You might have to log in to view it, it has some language LOL) Keep watching til the end if you haven't seen it before, its a classic


:lol HAHAHA.

Great way to add some humor to this thread, Stacy.

...just got off the phone with my state farm agent. He said coverage is np as long as it's not a timed/race event....and he doesn't care if it's on a "track" or in a parking lot.

Hmm. I shoulda got that in writing......:eek:

Don

Kyle, in what section is this wording on your USAA policy? I don't remember seeing that in mine. I will check it again once you let me know where to look.

My USAA policy in NJ excludes: "Loss to any vehicle while it is being operated in, or in practice for, any speed contest." Clearly a driver's school is not a speed contest.

I think the Kyle guy from earlier in the thread should ask USAA why he's not covered, and read his policy under exclusions. Especially since we're talking about thousands of dollars here.

My State Farm policy just changed. The exclusion language used to exclude any vehicle in "any racing or speed contest."

Now the exclusion applies to to any vehicle while it is "on a track designed primarily for racing or high speed driving."


Scott