Hey guys,
I plan on doing a few DE events this year and wanted to get some harnesses for my car. First off I have a 97 M3 coupe and I have aftermarket Corbeau LG1 seats. I am aware of the Schroth quick fit harnesses and really like that idea. The only thing holding me back right now is the price for them new. Could I run regular bolt-ins instead or do I need a harness bar for that? I don't use the back seat much, but would like the option of removing the harnesses if I needed it. Also I still want use of my factory 3 point harness. So do I have any options, or am I locked in to the quick-fits? If I can get a regular bolt-in harness where would I be mounting them? Thanks!

Hey man,

I've got the bolt in Schroth in my e30 and it works well. I still have the factory belts in the car for street use and they only took a little while to install. I can even smoosh them down in the back and reinstall my back seat when I'm not using them.

If you want to swing by and check out how they install you can see them anytime, my car is in Brown Deer being prepped for the season. Which events are you planning on running?

Well I definitely want to get to OktoberFast, and hopefully a few at Blackhawk as well. Send me a PM with your info and I will stop by.

Will these be your first DEs? If so, you're better off staying away from harnesses right now.
Cost vs. benefits vs. safety between stock belts and the quick-fits just don't add up.
The false sense of security you get being strapped in will lead to you finding the limits of your car before you know what to do at that limit... and thats when sheet metal gets bent
Starting out with stock belts will FORCE you to learn to drive smooth and smart. Harnesses, like r-comp tires, can mask many mistakes.You'll be a much better driver, and much better prepared driver if you cut your teeth using stock equipment. Once you get deep into the intermediate and advanced levels, then you can start thinking about harnesses and other safety/go-fast equipment... preferably including a 4-point roll bar and seat so you can properly install the harnesses.

Add... and yes, to answer your question... you are stuck with Quick Fits, because regular competition harnesses cannot be properly mounted with your seats.

FYI- The Schroth 4 point systems are currently floating in a grey area for PCA events. The PCA has issued new rules for 2008 clearly stating that 4 point systems are not allowed at their DEs. Some chapters are adopting the new rules this year.

While you may not run PCA events, it may be a sign of things to come for other DE organizers.

I have the Schroth clip ins and love them.

/Currently miffed at the PCA

J

Will these be your first DEs? If so, you're better off staying away from harnesses right now.
Cost vs. benefits vs. safety between stock belts and the quick-fits just don't add up.
The false sense of security you get being strapped in will lead to you finding the limits of your car before you know what to do at that limit... and thats when sheet metal gets bent
Starting out with stock belts will FORCE you to learn to drive smooth and smart. Harnesses, like r-comp tires, can mask many mistakes.You'll be a much better driver, and much better prepared driver if you cut your teeth using stock equipment. Once you get deep into the intermediate and advanced levels, then you can start thinking about harnesses and other safety/go-fast equipment... preferably including a 4-point roll bar and seat so you can properly install the harnesses.

Add... and yes, to answer your question... you are stuck with Quick Fits, because regular competition harnesses cannot be properly mounted with your seats.

Yep first set of DE's. I mainly wanted the harnesses not so much for safety, but to keep me in the seat. Hell even just screwing around on the road, the stock belts are really working to keep me in my seat. Plus I think it will be hard to keep concentration if I have to brace myself before I enter a corner.

FYI- The Schroth 4 point systems are currently floating in a grey area for PCA events. The PCA has issued new rules for 2008 clearly stating that 4 point systems are not allowed at their DEs. Some chapters are adopting the new rules this year.

While you may not run PCA events, it may be a sign of things to come for other DE organizers.

I have the Schroth clip ins and love them.

/Currently miffed at the PCA

J

Well the Badger Bimmers don't require any kind of harness yet, just long sleeve shirts, pants, and a SA helmet. Hopefully they won't change things too drastically.

have you considered a CG-Lock at all?

I have a similar question...

I will eventually get a race harness once I have a cage, so I figure it's not worth it to buy a race harness now while I can't afford the cage yet.

That said, would the Schroth Quick-Fits be suitable/OK for use at regular DE's... if the bolt-ins aren't? Regarding the QF's: the single mounting point which isnt clip in.. where does that mount to? I will be using these with an aftermarket bucket seat...

Yep first set of DE's. I mainly wanted the harnesses not so much for safety, but to keep me in the seat. Hell even just screwing around on the road, the stock belts are really working to keep me in my seat. Plus I think it will be hard to keep concentration if I have to brace myself before I enter a corner.

You'd be surprised how well the tool drawer liner stuff works to keep you planted. Are your Corbeau's cloth or leather? It works best on leather from my experience.

My point is... when you start tracking, it will be (at least it should be) drilled into you that smoothness is the key to going fast, and going safe. It's harder to know of you're actually smooth or not when you're strapped in... especially when starting out. Driving on track is VASTLY different than driving on the street.

Don't buy any harnesses until you've had a chance to drive on track a few times.

Plus... you have to buy two of everything since you'll need the same equipment for the passenger as well.

To the other poster about the quickfits... check with the group you're running with before purchasing. They are basically a 'Y' type harness, and many don't approve those at all.

My point is... when you start tracking, it will be (at least it should be) drilled into you that smoothness is the key to going fast, and going safe. It's harder to know of you're actually smooth or not when you're strapped in... especially when starting out. Driving on track is VASTLY different than driving on the street.
I agree that becoming smooth and consistant is the key to turning fast laps. But I'll have to disagree with the assertion that one will learn that faster with 3-point belts. When one has to brace against the steering wheel to keep from sliding out of the seat it is extremely difficult to exercise the sort of fine control necessary. Anything that yields a more relaxed driver contributes to a less steep learning cure.

To the other poster about the quickfits... check with the group you're running with before purchasing. They are basically a 'Y' type harness, and many don't approve those at all.
I've never seen a Y-type quick fit. All of the Schroth harnesses I've seen are basically H-type wih two extended shoulder belts.

I agree that becoming smooth and consistant is the key to turning fast laps. But I'll have to disagree with the assertion that one will learn that faster with 3-point belts. When one has to brace against the steering wheel to keep from sliding out of the seat it is extremely difficult to exercise the sort of fine control necessary. Anything that yields a more relaxed driver contributes to a less steep learning cure.

The FACT that you're having to brace yourself (remember, we're talking about beginner/novice level) means you aren't smooth. Strapping yourself in won't make you smooth, it will only keep you from sliding around. In the short term, yes, its more comfortable. Learning to be smooth can't be done properly if you don't have that input to your brain (hey, I'm sliding around, maybe I can be smoother there?).

I've never seen a Y-type quick fit. All of the Schroth harnesses I've seen are basically H-type wih two extended shoulder belts.I guess I was thinking of the "tuner" belts... but even the quickfit is sewn at a single point behind the seat right? Technically an 'X' type belt. Check out this diagram of a typical quick fit installation... I'm sorry, but I'd rather stay with my 3-points...

http://english.schroth.com/gfx/dyn/allgemein/quickfit_detail.jpg

There's no sub protection... you can't tighten the belts properly... and ASM cartridge or not, without the sub strap, the belts will ride up during the course of a session which will expose your internal organs to damage in the event of a frontal impact... not to mention the angle of those shoulder straps is not safe, I don't care what Schroth or HMS says.

Hahaha, I love the "I don't care what Schroth or HMS says."

Also, since when does smooth mean you don't generate any g-forces?

Anyhoo, I agree with you to some extent about novice drivers not really needing to invest in harnesses. I would suggest the only thing new drivers invest in is a fresh set of brake pads (in regards to new parts for the car, assuming everything else is up to par), and that's only so they don't miss out on day two when they've run their street bads down to the backing. :D

Listen to your instructor. Don't try to go fast, pay attention to where the instructor wants you to put the car on the track, and be as smooth as you can with all of your inputs- steering, throttle and braking. Speed will come naturally after you master those.

Last thing about "smooth" I will say- Smooth input does not always mean slow input. You can steer quickly, and still be smooth. ;-)

Have fun at the DE. Be safe!

J

Hahaha, I love the "I don't care what Schroth or HMS says."

I'm still waiting on the ban :evil2

Also, since when does smooth mean you don't generate any g-forces?

I don't think I ever said that... and I didn't mean to imply it. But new drivers need to experience those forces with their whole body, not just their head. They'll learn to be smooth MUCH quicker AND at a slower velocity (which is safer for everyone). Wearing a harness could delay that experience to a point where it happens when the driver hasn't progressed at a reasonable pace. This creates a situation where the driver ends up in a situation he doesn't know how to deal with... and at that point the instructor is just along for the ride at a greater rate of speed then might have happened otherwise.

Anyhoo, I agree with you to some extent about novice drivers not really needing to invest in harnesses. I would suggest the only thing new drivers invest in is a fresh set of brake pads (in regards to new parts for the car, assuming everything else is up to par), and that's only so they don't miss out on day two when they've run their street bads down to the backing. :D

Listen to your instructor. Don't try to go fast, pay attention to where the instructor wants you to put the car on the track, and be as smooth as you can with all of your inputs- steering, throttle and braking. Speed will come naturally after you master those.

Last thing about "smooth" I will say- Smooth input does not always mean slow input. You can steer quickly, and still be smooth. ;-)

Have fun at the DE. Be safe!

J

All good points... they bear repeating

Check out this diagram of a typical quick fit installation... I'm sorry, but I'd rather stay with my 3-points...

http://english.schroth.com/gfx/dyn/allgemein/quickfit_detail.jpg

There's no sub protection... you can't tighten the belts properly... and ASM cartridge or not, without the sub strap, the belts will ride up during the course of a session which will expose your internal organs to damage in the event of a frontal impact... .One advantage of the Quickfits is that they use the stock pretensioner, which pulls the lap belt tighter (and down) during a crash. This, along with the asm, helps keep the lap belt from riding up in a crash. I've used the Quickfits, and have not had them "ride up during a session" as you suggest, as long as the lap belt is pulled tight prior to tightening the shoulder straps. A sub belt may be a better bet, but I think the Quickfits are a reasonable alternative.

HMS used to have test sled videos on their site, I don't know if they still do. Those would be a better indicator than us arguing about what happens during a crash.

This topic has sparked endless debates, and I don't expect to change your mind, but I do want to provide all the facts.

One advantage of the Quickfits is that they use the stock pretensioner, which pulls the lap belt tighter (and down) during a crash. This, along with the asm, helps keep the lap belt from riding up in a crash. I've used the Quickfits, and have not had them "ride up during a session" as you suggest, as long as the lap belt is pulled tight prior to tightening the shoulder straps. A sub belt may be a better bet, but I think the Quickfits are a reasonable alternative.

HMS used to have test sled videos on their site, I don't know if they still do. Those would be a better indicator than us arguing about what happens during a crash.

This topic has sparked endless debates, and I don't expect to change your mind, but I do want to provide all the facts.

What models are the pre-tensioners on? Does the E36 have them? I know my E30 does not have them unless they are in the shoulder belt, and well, that kinda defeats the purpose as well.

Look... Most of my rants are geared directly to the person just starting out... NOT the experienced driver with lots of seat time (either through good instruction or dumb luck... either way, they have the experience and can use it to stay safe as they see fit.)

And one last point again... before spending any money on these things, please consult the tech adviser for any club you plan to participate with. They may not even allow them.

What models are the pre-tensioners on? Does the E36 have them?
My 1997 E36 has them, and I think all E36 have them. And of course E46.

HMS used to have test sled videos on their site, I don't know if they still do. Those would be a better indicator than us arguing about what happens during a crash.
From what I remember of sled tests in the 80's when air bags were being developed... The cross-chest belt coupled with an air bag does a good job in a purely frontal collision. However in a quartering impacts (particularly1-2 o'clock hits) it is possible for the upper torso to twist out from under the cross-chest strap. In that case the air bag may not help much since the velocity vector is at an angle. That won't happen with any form of dual shoulder straps. It is true that without sub straps the pull of the shoulder straps can cause a lap belt to rise, but if properly tightened it didn't do so in the sled tests that I saw. It sort of went like; a 3-point belt beats a lap belt, a 3-point belt and air bag beats that, and a four-point beats all of those. I don't remember any tests of a 5-point or better system in those days.

In a perfect world one would not be in a car on a track that did not have a stripped interior (less combustibles), a fuel cell, an FIA seat, a full cage, a 5-point or better harness, a HANS type device, three layer fire suit, and an on-board fire suppression system. But for a lot of folks that isn't possible since they are in their daily-driver. A DOT approved 4-point harness will out perform a 3-point belt in the majority of cases. And there's no question that such a harness can make for a more enjoyable DE.

With the Quick-Fits and an aftermarket seat... where would they clip in to on the inboard (tranny tunnel) side? The stock point is mounted with the stock seats...

I have been doing track events for 5 or 6 years now, HPDE only. I had an E46 M3 with stock manual seats and OE lap belts, and also a ZO6 in which I installed a race seat, six point harness, harness bar and HANS. Now I'm driving a Porsche 997S with OE sport seat and lap belts. I know this is a bit over-simplified, but my advice, either leave it stock, or go to a full, approved roll bar or cage, seat, harness, HANS, etc. You can do all kinds of stuff to your street car, trying to get that last 10% of performance. But, that last 10% is where bad things happen. It's a street car, you need to drive it with a reasonable margin for safety, and, IMO, the factory equipment is adequate for that use.

With the Quick-Fits and an aftermarket seat... where would they clip in to on the inboard (tranny tunnel) side? The stock point is mounted with the stock seats...

You have to move the seat belt receptical to the new seat. Most aftermarket seat brackets should have a hole drilled for it.