Hi all,

I'm curious who has done this swap and/or seen them. Discussion welcome, pics or links too please! S14 evangelists please forgive me for being interested, but I miss my Euro-spec E30 325i so badly that I'm thinking of taking this step. What I'm looking for:

1. Must be an E30. I really dislike the E36 car, having had poor experience with them - and I don't think anyone is putting S54 engines in E30 chassis.
2. Must be a BMW engine. Sure, you CAN drop a LT1 Z06 engine in, but that wouldn't be a BMW anymore, would it?
3. I'm not interested at all in FI. Been there, done that, doing it now and want to go back to NA.

Thanks!

Not sure what exactly your question is. Are you looking for one already done? Or how to do it? Or other motor choices? Or? There is one E30 S54 that I know of (LONG thread on e46fanatics).

I have a S50B32 E30 M3.

It can be done. You can save yourself a lot of money by putting an S50 into a regular E30 chassis. And you keep us S14 evangelists happy :-)

THere is a lengthy thread on R3vlimited.com regarding this subject.

Thanks for the replies. I'm looking into either purchasing a completed one (preferred), or purchasing a clean E30 and hunting down an S50B30/32 to put in. I'm not averse to a non-M3 E30, because I do understand and respect the purist's approach the venerable S14. However, there is no question that the M3 is a more desirable option and any S14 evangelist will have a hard time convincing me that the S14 is a better choice even for collectibility, unless the car is super clean, all original concours-level etc.

I've been poking around for some time on this subject, and have read the loooong e46fanatics thread on the S54 transplant (thanks gobuffs!). That doesn't really appeal to me much now - it seems too far a departure from the E30 intent, and OMG did that take a lot of work! Do you guys have links and/or photos describing an S50B30/32 transplant in similar detail?

Also, I posted here because I want to read honest opinions from other BMW enthusisasts about the viability of doing it, long-term reliability and maintainability, and of course the social implications (i.e. purist derision ;)).

Any and all info and opinions welcome. BTW, S14 evangelists take note: I am already not convinced by the two most common arguments against doing this: 1) Somehow "taking away" from the original intent and beautiful design of the E30 M3 by pulling the S14; and 2) The handling penalty of placing the small amount of additional weight further forward of the front axle.

gobuffs, wanna post pics of yours? Thanks in advance.

My car is so completely removed from being an E30 M3 I can't even really make a comparison. I don't think the motor is that much of a handling penalty. However, the only things left that are stock E30 M3 are 1) the unibody (minus some metal on the rear quarters for the wider arches and minus the spare tire well for the fuel cell), 2) the front subframe, 3) the rear subframe, 4) the steering column and 5) the front windshield. Other than that everything has been removed. My car weighs in at 2500# with me in it (and I weigh 285). I removed the A/C pump and the PS pump from the donor motor. The Euro 3.2 weighs about 100# more than an S14, but with the stuff I have removed I would guess I might be 25-30 heavier.

I have no read the entire S54 transplant thread. It is an electronics nightmare from what I have heard. Interesting you say that "it seems too far a departure from the E30 intent"- the S54 is very similar to the Euro 3 and 3.2.

Zinosville sells a CD about the transplant (Project Orca).

I have seen 1 Euro transplant car that has sold (I drove it- the suspension setup was not so good as it got really floaty around 100mph). It was a Euro 3L conversion. It sold once to a friend then he sold it. Last I heard it was in Connecticut.

My car is not quite ready for pics (once it gets back from the painter it might be, but there are still a few things I need to do with the Lexan).

My arguement against the taking away the soul of the E30 M3 is nothing that is done on the swap is irreversible.

Viability? Pretty easy swap
Reliability? As long as you maintain it it is ok. I would say the likelihood of a spun bearing in an S14 is higher than a major failure on a Euro motor.
Maintainability? Again pretty easy, however timing the Vanos scares the bejesus out of me. Parts are not a problem, however you have to plan ahead as you many times can't go down to your local stealer and expect them to have parts on the shelf (as long as you have a part number they will order it).

As much stuff as I did to my car, if I were to go back in time, I probably would have found a regular E30. But, that would have cost me more as in the end I was paid to take the E30 M3 since I parted it out for more than I paid for it.

I have no read the entire S54 transplant thread. It is an electronics nightmare from what I have heard. Interesting you say that "it seems too far a departure from the E30 intent"- the S54 is very similar to the Euro 3 and 3.2.



Actually, you hit the nail right on the head already. The departure for me seems too far mostly because the electronics are so involved. It does look as if that was exacerbated by the choice of SMG instead of a regular manual tranny. I understand that the S54 is a child of the Euro engines in BMW geneology, but that e46fanatics thread shows just how painful a swap with it can be!

Looking forward to pics of yours when you're ready...

The s54 would be a lot more fun in an E30 M3 if you could gt the weight distribution right.

The S50 has about 0 character, the S54 on the other hand is a lot more fun to drive.

The s54 would be a lot more fun in an E30 M3 if you could gt the weight distribution right.

The S50 has about 0 character, the S54 on the other hand is a lot more fun to drive.

He is talking about the Euro motors, not the US ones.

He is talking about the Euro motors, not the US ones.

Ah, then there's a substantially smaller gap between the two.

hey bruce -

how long have you had the euro 3.2? im wrapping mine up (ok fine, im almost 1/2 way done). getting ready for this summer. it was a bit more difficult than the us motors....i assume it will be worth it. just out of curiosity, did you run a booster? cheers, jason

About a year now. But with building a new house, etc etc etc, I have not had time to shake it down that much. I think it has been to the track about 6 or 7 days. Really need to sort out the suspension.

How wasit more difficult than a US motor? The only thing you can't bypass is the EWS but I figured that out fairly painlessly (details of the wiring is in my sig).

No booster. I took out the stock pedal box and replaced it with a Tilton one with triple masters. No problems whatsoever.

How wasit more difficult than a US motor? The only thing you can't bypass is the EWS but I figured that out fairly painlessly (details of the wiring is in my sig).

No booster. I took out the stock pedal box and replaced it with a Tilton one with triple masters. No problems whatsoever.

compared to the US engines......withh tthe euro headers and 5er mounts, the headers touched the footwell, (easy push-in), they hit the front subframe (notch subframe or raise engine 1/2-3/4") and rrequired treehouse lollipops. 5er oil pan did not have oil seperator drain. still unconfirmed if the e30 fuel pump will hold 5bar. and of course the wiring. the booster was the biggest headache though.

just getting ready to build a house too. hope i get more than 5 days this summer. cheers, jason

I'll give you those. Didn't seem like a big deal at the time (although I had to get a friend notch the subframe).

I doubt the E30 pump will do 5 bar.

Are you using the Euro cluster? I think feeding the speed signal thru the E30 cluster will give the DME what it needs (I went without a stock cluster so I had to buy a speed signal generator from Kempower for 400 Euros (ouch).

About a year now. But with building a new house, etc etc etc, I have not had time to shake it down that much. I think it has been to the track about 6 or 7 days. Really need to sort out the suspension.

How wasit more difficult than a US motor? The only thing you can't bypass is the EWS but I figured that out fairly painlessly (details of the wiring is in my sig).

No booster. I took out the stock pedal box and replaced it with a Tilton one with triple masters. No problems whatsoever.

I considered doing this swap when my motor blew last season, but for a number of reasons decided to stick with the s14. still, would love to see some pictures of the build when you have them.

I can't take pictures of an ugly car. LOL

This is as good as it gets...
http://heersink.org/house/garage/thumbs/IMG_5862.JPG

What do you have against the E36? I have both an E30 M3 and a E36, and the E36 is a very dependable comfortable car. I also love the vintage styling of the E30 M3 but I dont understand why people go through the trouble of transplanting the S50 motor into an E30 M3? I can understand from a power standpoint, but I think you throw off the balance and handling of the E30, and thats pretty much what the car is setup for, not speed.

I can understand from a power standpoint, but I think you throw off the balance and handling of the E30, and thats pretty much what the car is setup for, not speed.

This is the most common arguement against the swap. How many people that use it have actually driven one?

My car's balance and handling is fine, thank you very much. It will be even better once the suspension is dialed in.

... I can understand from a power standpoint, but I think you throw off the balance and handling of the E30, and thats pretty much what the car is setup for, not speed.

With a composite hood and front bumper, and a/c delete, the weight penalty would be pretty small.

For a track only/race car, having the 300+ reliable hp and the extra torque of the euro motor (stock, on pump gas) is a pretty tempting proposition. You need to spend a small fortune and get relatively extreme in terms of modifications, rpm and tuning to get there with the S14.

gobuffs, post some pictures after the painting is done, I like to live vicariously once in a while :)

This is the most common arguement against the swap. How many people that use it have actually driven one?

My car's balance and handling is fine, thank you very much. It will be even better once the suspension is dialed in.
.

I have no a/c, no nothing except for a s50 under the hood of my car. It handles fine with my gc's. Now a 335, that felt like it had a heavy front end.

...Now a 335, that felt like it had a heavy front end.

it should -- it's 1000lbs heavier than the cars we're talking about :eek:

e30 m30, not the e90/2

With a composite hood and front bumper, and a/c delete, the weight penalty would be pretty small.

For a track only/race car, having the 300+ reliable hp and the extra torque of the euro motor (stock, on pump gas) is a pretty tempting proposition. You need to spend a small fortune and get relatively extreme in terms of modifications, rpm and tuning to get there with the S14.

gobuffs, post some pictures after the painting is done, I like to live vicariously once in a while :)

So I guess its for people who just want more power out of a E30 car. What about adding a turbo. Would that add as much weight as the motor swap? Might be cheaper to go turbo as well???

the M20s take turbos pretty well from what I hear. To do it properly on an S14 you need to go to low compression pistons. A route I have thought about. But it does add a lot of weight (guessing it would be most of the way to a swap).

What do you have against the E36? I have both an E30 M3 and a E36, and the E36 is a very dependable comfortable car. I also love the vintage styling of the E30 M3 but I dont understand why people go through the trouble of transplanting the S50 motor into an E30 M3? I can understand from a power standpoint, but I think you throw off the balance and handling of the E30, and thats pretty much what the car is setup for, not speed.

When I approached 250,000 miles on my lovely Euro-spec 1989 E30 325i, I decided to "upgrade" to an E36. I sold the E30 to a friend (he continued to drive it for some time), and bought a super-clean 1998 328is. At first, I thought it was a better car, but over time I began to really dislike the E36 altogether. I could go on and on and on about all the things I think BMW did wrong with that car, but ultimately it's just subjective opinion and won't serve anyone well to post here. I've also subsequently had experience with other E36 cars (to confirm that it wasn't just mine), as well as the E46.

I guess that sometimes people connect with a certain kind of car, and I just count myself fortunate to know what car I'm emotional about - the E30 BMW (especially the M3)! The M3 just needs to have its overall power deficiency, buzziness, narrow torque band, rebuild frequency & cost issues dealt with - and what better way to do it than a sweet European S50B32 engine?

With a composite hood and front bumper, and a/c delete, the weight penalty would be pretty small.

For a track only/race car, having the 300+ reliable hp and the extra torque of the euro motor (stock, on pump gas) is a pretty tempting proposition. You need to spend a small fortune and get relatively extreme in terms of modifications, rpm and tuning to get there with the S14.

gobuffs, post some pictures after the painting is done, I like to live vicariously once in a while :)


Seems like a lot to give up to try and match the weight ratio, especially here in Florida, where you cant live without a/c.
I agree the S/14 wasnt designed for massive power, but the car was designed to be well planted and handle great, and that how I have always approached driving it, not for straight line power.

When I approached 250,000 miles on my lovely Euro-spec 1989 E30 325i, I decided to "upgrade" to an E36. I sold the E30 to a friend (he continued to drive it for some time), and bought a super-clean 1998 328is. At first, I thought it was a better car, but over time I began to really dislike the E36 altogether. I could go on and on and on about all the things I think BMW did wrong with that car, but ultimately it's just subjective opinion and won't serve anyone well to post here. I've also subsequently had experience with other E36 cars (to confirm that it wasn't just mine), as well as the E46.

I guess that sometimes people connect with a certain kind of car, and I just count myself fortunate to know what car I'm emotional about - the E30 BMW (especially the M3)! The M3 just needs to have its overall power deficiency, buzziness, narrow torque band, rebuild frequency & cost issues dealt with - and what better way to do it than a sweet European S50B32 engine?


ITs a little tough to compare the E36 328is to the E36 M3 in my opinion. The E36 M3 is a great overall daily driver with loads of power. I can understand how you couldnt connect with the car though, I felt the same way about the E46 M3. I kept going back to the dealership and test driving it, hoping I would like it, but I just finally gave up. It was loud, uncomfortable, and I didnt care for the styling.

Seems like a lot to give up to try and match the weight ratio, especially here in Florida, where you cant live without a/c.

I meant for track/race cars, where you toss everything.

I agree the S/14 wasnt designed for massive power, but the car was designed to be well planted and handle great, and that how I have always approached driving it, not for straight line power.

Agreed, the car's handling and reflexes are simply awesome.

Ive driven them all. S14 powered M3's, e36 s52 and s50 powered M3's, and an e30 replica m3 vert with s50 swap. And you know what, the car I most enjoyed was the S14, although the vert was nice, it wasnt dialed in right, but I imagine that I will like it just as much. A friend of mine is finshing an e30 m3 build with boosted s50...wow. Cant wait to drive it, i'll report back then.

If your looking for a car already done. Ebay often sees the most of them!!

I agree the S/14 wasnt designed for massive power, but the car was designed to be well planted and handle great, and that how I have always approached driving it, not for straight line power.


Despite my intention to seek out or build a larger-engined E30 M3, I do have to agree whole-heartedly with you in this regard. My C32 is a perfect example of how straight-line power cannot overcome mass where handling is concerned. AMG cars are no slouches in the suspension department, and I've taken additional steps to address the stock understeer as well - but it will never handle like an M3 (of any generation). I can turn mid-high 12's in the quarter, trapping >115mph, and top out at almost 190mph - but what is at the end of every straight?

A corner ;)

Thing is, I believe that the weight penalty of an I6 transplant in an E30 M3 can be mitigated, and the position of that weight will not significantly hamper the handling of the E30 once the suspension is properly dialed in. Things also get much more interesting when the power-to-weight ratio exceeds 10lbs/hp!

The one thing i would suggest is that if you are determined to use an E30 M3 for this swap, get a rolling chassis or a car with an unrepairable motor. I suggest this for several reasons.

1. It will be much cheaper than a well running car.

2. The originality of the car will already be compromised if the engine block is beyond repair. Any replacement block wouldn't be numbers matching.

3. If you get a car with the motor already pulled, it will be that much less work to do to perform the swap.

Rolling chassis can be found fairly easily. I've seen at a handful at least recently just browsing these forums.