I am considering a few different engine swaps/conversions for my E36 such as the S54, 2JZ-GTE, and the LSx. However, I have never seen much about putting the E39 M5 engine into an E36. Will it not fit, too heavy, or too big of a headache? Just wondering why I haven’t heard much about it. Thanks for any input.

According to Fair, and other cats who tried BMW V8s, it's big and expensive.

I mean, a S62 + 6speed has to be in $8-10K range . . . and LS1 + T56 is ~$4K . . . with all the aftermarket support you can get for the LS1, it's almost a no-brainer.

I've seen cars at the strip with 300hp to 1000hp LS1s. I've seen only 400hp M5s . . . .

I knew it would be more than the LS1 but I figured with all the people that think that is blasphemy someone would have paid the extra cash for the S62. I was just curious how it may have turned out. I guess blasphemy has a price tag! I would love to keep a BMW engine in my BMW but I don’t want to pay outrageous prices for it when I could get the same or similar results from other engines.

The S62 was my plan until I started really planning out the build. I soon realized it wasn't worth the money or the hassle. The LSx engines have so much more potential for gobs less money than the S62. The S62 engine is a magnificant piece of engineering but w/out spending another $5-$10k you are pretty much stuck at 400hp. The packaging of the LSx engines really make it an attractive option (very compact). Then when you add in the cost of a complete engine (mine was $2k w/ 23k miles) it makes it a no brainer if the thought of GM power doesn't bother you. If you feel it is blasphemy, it probably isn't the swap for you.

how about an s62 in an e30
http://www.matthes-racing.de/tuning/galleries/E30_Matthes_V8/images/v8_7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/b20vtecek/IMG_0527.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/b20vtecek/IMG_0632.jpg


Lighter, cheaper, easier to tune and it fits.

Short answers as to why :eyecrazy, this is a 449CI LS2 running on 93 octane pump gas, some valve float that has been corrected since this dyno. Too bad the dyno doesn't start at say 2000 rpms as I would wager it has more then 400rwtq at that point. Sick just sick.
:alright

mmmmm Sheetmetal intake. . . :drool:

very interesting topic dude...i was lookin at doin an engine swap too on my e36 318...there r many other guys around with 318's that r lookin into more power and headin to engine swaps...and when they see the prices for other bmw engine swaps (S50,S54 or watever) they just give up..like it happened to me..but like wat most of the guys said...y does it have to be a bmw engine while we can get another engine like the 2JZGTE or the LS1 for much less money with much higher power !!

ur engine choices r interesting...if it was me (it's goin to be me in the future) i won't go for the S54...i think it's gonna b kinda heavy for the E36 and again it would be xtremely expensive...so if it was me i'd go for the 2JZ-GTE ...and i read of some ppl that actually did that swap on an E36 and from wat i read it worked nicely....the LS1 is a great choice too...i'd say !

watever happens plz keep us updated i'm goin to do this in the future so i might learn from wat u will do..

Good luck with it..:buttrock

Interesting as I was considering it as well... if I swapped, I wanted to go S50B32, S54, or S62. Price is the biggest factor and the whole, I want an M engine in my M3. I know, stupid considering price and power of the LSx, but it's just how I feel.

Probably won't happen any time soon since my engine is running great, but I could probably get money for mine right now from someone looking for an S52 swap before I go putting even more miles on.

Thanks for the input guys. I am getting a lot closer to being able to do whatever I want so I am trying to get closer to making a decision. From your good points I think I have ruled out the S62. I was kind of fishing for someone who may have done it to see what they had to say. I didn't realize the S54 and S52 had that big of a weight difference? I know I have heard the LSx engines are actually a slight weight improvement in the E36. How about the 2JZ-GTE ? Is it comparable to the LSx? And how about the transmissions between the 2JZ-GTE and LSx? Is one much better than the other?

how about an s62 in an e30


WOW

very interesting topic dude...i was lookin at doin an engine swap too on my e36 318...there r many other guys around with 318's that r lookin into more power and headin to engine swaps...and when they see the prices for other bmw engine swaps (S50,S54 or watever) they just give up..like it happened to me..but like wat most of the guys said...y does it have to be a bmw engine while we can get another engine like the 2JZGTE or the LS1 for much less money with much higher power !!

ur engine choices r interesting...if it was me (it's goin to be me in the future) i won't go for the S54...i think it's gonna b kinda heavy for the E36 and again it would be xtremely expensive...so if it was me i'd go for the 2JZ-GTE ...and i read of some ppl that actually did that swap on an E36 and from wat i read it worked nicely....the LS1 is a great choice too...i'd say !

watever happens plz keep us updated i'm goin to do this in the future so i might learn from wat u will do..

Good luck with it..


I was leaning toward the 2JZ-GTE myself until I started reading more about the LSx swaps. Now I am not sure which of those I would rather do. If you find any good info comparing the two let me know. It may help me to make my decision.

I don't know how far the GM market has progressed, but when I looked into this in the late 90s, I found a recipe for an LT1/4 based 409 that would put out 520-530 hp/tq at the motor and pull 450+ ft/lbs from 2250 to 5500. The T56 would hold the power with the right clutch, and if it was internally balanced, you had to really know what you were looking at to tell the difference from the outside.

However, in order to pull those kinds of numbers, you had to do a *lot* of work on the inside: tear it down to the bare bloc and magnaflux it to make sure it's perfect, fill parts of the water jacket, and bore it within an inch of its life (only the 95+ LT blocks would hold the .100" overbore you needed without core shift). Then you had to buy a forged crank (stocker was cast), machine it to fit, buy longer rods (stockers were weak and didn't provide optimal length:stroke ratio), buy custom forged pistons (stockers were cast, and wrist pins were too low on the skirt to accommodate the needed stroke increase), and buy a nice custom roller cam. Then you had to get a custom CNC port on the heads, and buy all new valves, springs, retainers, etc., which cost ~1200+ ten years ago. You also had to buy a custom intake manifold, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, etc. You could re-flash the ECU, but it was safer to go w/ an aftermarket system. And for a BMW application, assume custom headers, cat fittment, and true dual exhaust.

Since then I've known several people who drive to work in Mk IV Supras that would turn 10-12-second quarter-mile times on street-legal tires.

The 2JZGTE from the Mk IV Supra will deliver 400 rwhp all day long with just a free-flow intake, a 3" exhaust from the turbine to the tip, a boost controller, and a front-mount intercooler. If you know what you're doing, you can get more. One tuner I knew had one that pulled 10.7s on the stock head gasket on street slicks. Add a pair of Garrett GT series turbos, some fuel, and a decent tuner, and you're looking at an easy 6-700 rwhp. If you want to spend what it would cost you to get 500 rwhp out of a small-block Chev (unless the new engines are infinitely cheaper to buy or rebuild than I recall), you can get well over 1000 rwhp from a 2JZ.

You can get similar numbers from an RB25/6 out of an R32+ Skyline, but it's an Al block and won't take as much abuse. I'm working now on an SR20DET that will deliver 360-380 rwhp to the back of my 96 240SX. Both of these motors have to be shipped in from Japan, however. But here's a little secret: you don't need the twin turbo 2JZ to make big power. A thick head gasket, a T66, Supra injectors and some ECU tuning (or replacement) will net you that same 350-400 rwhp from the N/A 2JZGE, and the stock 5 speed Getrag will hold it without blinking. And you can find them in every NA Mk IV Supra and Lexus SC300 in the boneyard across the US. Visit www dot cleansc dot net for a good example.

For my money, there's no contest: 2JZ wins hands down. Then again, if you'll be happy w/ 400 rwhp, you can just add a stage II turbo to your E36 inline 6 for a lot less than any of the other options above, and you'll get to keep M Power in your M3. 8^)

For what it's worth,

Tex

Nice...very nice! You definitely pushed me back in the original direction that I was thinking. I was moving toward the 2JZ because I heard it was very solid when increasing power. I will have to look more into the 2JZGE vs. the GTE.

I would go with an s38

Lighter, cheaper, easier to tune and it fits.

Short answers as to why :eyecrazy, this is a 449CI LS2 running on 93 octane pump gas, some valve float that has been corrected since this dyno. Too bad the dyno doesn't start at say 2000 rpms as I would wager it has more then 400rwtq at that point. Sick just sick.
:alright

What car is that?

how about an s62 in an e30
http://www.matthes-racing.de/tuning/galleries/E30_Matthes_V8/images/v8_7.jpg

Damn.....THats Beast.......you got a link........

What car is that?

It's a C5 Z06 Corvette

What car is that?

If it is his car, it is an e36.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6772137&postcount=69

thanx alot for the info BigTex u just got me to decide on wat i'm gonna do too...the 2JGTE for me...and wat makes me more confident is wat i read about it being done on an E36 318...which is just my case...it was in some magazine so i can't link u to it...was done in some asian country can't remember exactly where...but like it was said...the 2J just fit nicely and worked correctly on that e36...can't remember any numbers but i'm guessin wat u stated is enough...

as for costs..dunno bout the US..but in here i can get the 2JGTE for something like 2000 USD...which is just good...atleast better than the 5,000 USD S50...

gonna start doin some search for the materials tommorow....and will need to talk to my friend in the workshop to see how this one is goin to work....

keep me updated on this one plz...it's a very interesting topic !!

Cheerz

thanx alot for the info BigTex u just got me to decide on wat i'm gonna do too...the 2JGTE for me...and wat makes me more confident is wat i read about it being done on an E36 318...which is just my case...it was in some magazine so i can't link u to it...was done in some asian country can't remember exactly where...but like it was said...the 2J just fit nicely and worked correctly on that e36...can't remember any numbers but i'm guessin wat u stated is enough...

as for costs..dunno bout the US..but in here i can get the 2JGTE for something like 2000 USD...which is just good...atleast better than the 5,000 USD S50...

gonna start doin some search for the materials tommorow....and will need to talk to my friend in the workshop to see how this one is goin to work....

keep me updated on this one plz...it's a very interesting topic !!

Cheerz

If you get started before I do let me know how it goes!

I would go with an s38

I didnt think about that. How much power can you make from one of those?
I don’t know how available they are. How much could you get one for?

thanx alot for the info BigTex u just got me to decide on wat i'm gonna do too...the 2JGTE for me...and wat makes me more confident is wat i read about it being done on an E36 318...which is just my case...it was in some magazine so i can't link u to it...was done in some asian country can't remember exactly where...but like it was said...the 2J just fit nicely and worked correctly on that e36...can't remember any numbers but i'm guessin wat u stated is enough...

as for costs..dunno bout the US..but in here i can get the 2JGTE for something like 2000 USD...which is just good...atleast better than the 5,000 USD S50...

gonna start doin some search for the materials tommorow....and will need to talk to my friend in the workshop to see how this one is goin to work....

keep me updated on this one plz...it's a very interesting topic !!

Cheerz

You guys are funny! 5,000 for a us s50?:lol A stock 2.8 m52 held up to 700whp before breaking, I think you need to stuff your pipe dreams with some bmw engines...:alright

I don't know how far the GM market has progressed, but when I looked into this in the late 90s, I found a recipe for an LT1/4 based 409 that would put out 520-530 hp/tq at the motor and pull 450+ ft/lbs from 2250 to 5500. The T56 would hold the power with the right clutch, and if it was internally balanced, you had to really know what you were looking at to tell the difference from the outside.

However, in order to pull those kinds of numbers, you had to do a *lot* of work on the inside: tear it down to the bare bloc and magnaflux it to make sure it's perfect, fill parts of the water jacket, and bore it within an inch of its life (only the 95+ LT blocks would hold the .100" overbore you needed without core shift). Then you had to buy a forged crank (stocker was cast), machine it to fit, buy longer rods (stockers were weak and didn't provide optimal length:stroke ratio), buy custom forged pistons (stockers were cast, and wrist pins were too low on the skirt to accommodate the needed stroke increase), and buy a nice custom roller cam. Then you had to get a custom CNC port on the heads, and buy all new valves, springs, retainers, etc., which cost ~1200+ ten years ago. You also had to buy a custom intake manifold, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, etc. You could re-flash the ECU, but it was safer to go w/ an aftermarket system. And for a BMW application, assume custom headers, cat fittment, and true dual exhaust.

Since then I've known several people who drive to work in Mk IV Supras that would turn 10-12-second quarter-mile times on street-legal tires.

The 2JZGTE from the Mk IV Supra will deliver 400 rwhp all day long with just a free-flow intake, a 3" exhaust from the turbine to the tip, a boost controller, and a front-mount intercooler. If you know what you're doing, you can get more. One tuner I knew had one that pulled 10.7s on the stock head gasket on street slicks. Add a pair of Garrett GT series turbos, some fuel, and a decent tuner, and you're looking at an easy 6-700 rwhp. If you want to spend what it would cost you to get 500 rwhp out of a small-block Chev (unless the new engines are infinitely cheaper to buy or rebuild than I recall), you can get well over 1000 rwhp from a 2JZ.

You can get similar numbers from an RB25/6 out of an R32+ Skyline, but it's an Al block and won't take as much abuse. I'm working now on an SR20DET that will deliver 360-380 rwhp to the back of my 96 240SX. Both of these motors have to be shipped in from Japan, however. But here's a little secret: you don't need the twin turbo 2JZ to make big power. A thick head gasket, a T66, Supra injectors and some ECU tuning (or replacement) will net you that same 350-400 rwhp from the N/A 2JZGE, and the stock 5 speed Getrag will hold it without blinking. And you can find them in every NA Mk IV Supra and Lexus SC300 in the boneyard across the US. Visit www dot cleansc dot net for a good example.

For my money, there's no contest: 2JZ wins hands down. Then again, if you'll be happy w/ 400 rwhp, you can just add a stage II turbo to your E36 inline 6 for a lot less than any of the other options above, and you'll get to keep M Power in your M3. 8^)

For what it's worth,

Tex

Originally Posted by ParadigmGuy
Haven't a few people run over 600 RWHP on stock HG and bolts?

That would be me (card counter)
I beat the piss out of tha car also raced almost every other week end at the track and street raced during the week never had a problem.
When I put it on the dyno and made 704whp the rod said F this shit
__________________

We have done some S62 into E46 chassis, the E36 wouldnt be much different. Depends on how you want to trim it out, stock with ac or race setup with no ac. You have to realize the S62 doesnt leave you much room in an E39 M5, when you put into an E36 or E46 you are going to have to pull the front clip or drop the motor to do anything. Biggest hurdle in any of these is wiring, you need to make it look stock and have everything work correctly or it is just another butcher job. Just about any mechanic can shove a big engine in a small hole, the art comes in when you can make it look like it rolled off the assembly line like that. Good luck in your decisions, and yes putting anything other than a BMW engine in a BMW is blasphemy. LOL

S38's are old and bitchy, expensive to rebuild also...sort of a pointless swap IMO. An S52 swap would be rather straightforward...for $3k you can get the sunbelt cam package and your sitting at a bit over 300hp. Or go FI for a few grand more.

Also the LSx would be sweet too, just more custom work. IMO, building a suspension and learning how to DRIVE the car should be first...I went backwards (did an engine swap on my first BMW).

S38's are old and bitchy, expensive to rebuild also...sort of a pointless swap IMO. An S52 swap would be rather straightforward...for $3k you can get the sunbelt cam package and your sitting at a bit over 300hp. Or go FI for a few grand more.

Also the LSx would be sweet too, just more custom work. IMO, building a suspension and learning how to DRIVE the car should be first...I went backwards (did an engine swap on my first BMW).

S38's are just plain expensive, but for a turbo bmw its the holy grail!

We have done some S62 into E46 chassis, the E36 wouldnt be much different. Depends on how you want to trim it out, stock with ac or race setup with no ac. You have to realize the S62 doesnt leave you much room in an E39 M5, when you put into an E36 or E46 you are going to have to pull the front clip or drop the motor to do anything. Biggest hurdle in any of these is wiring, you need to make it look stock and have everything work correctly or it is just another butcher job. Just about any mechanic can shove a big engine in a small hole, the art comes in when you can make it look like it rolled off the assembly line like that. Good luck in your decisions, and yes putting anything other than a BMW engine in a BMW is blasphemy. LOL

Thanks man! I certainly am willing to pay the $$ to make it look good and yes I am having a hard time with the blasphemy issue. BUT the power is hard to turn away from!

S38's are just plain expensive, but for a turbo bmw its the holy grail!


Holy grail huh? Hummmm....interesting

Holy grail huh? Hummmm....interesting

yes sir.......
there are more 1000+hp turbo S38's than any other BMW engine...
the Swedes are responsible for most of that..:D

yes sir.......
there are more 1000+hp turbo S38's than any other BMW engine...
the Swedes are responsible for most of that..:D


Wow! You guys really are making this difficult for me!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/b20vtecek/IMG_0527.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/b20vtecek/IMG_0632.jpg


Lighter, cheaper, easier to tune and it fits.

Short answers as to why :eyecrazy, this is a 449CI LS2 running on 93 octane pump gas, some valve float that has been corrected since this dyno. Too bad the dyno doesn't start at say 2000 rpms as I would wager it has more then 400rwtq at that point. Sick just sick.
:alright

Just got a chubby from those dyno numbers.And N/A!!:buttrock

Thanks man! I certainly am willing to pay the $$ to make it look good and yes I am having a hard time with the blasphemy issue. BUT the power is hard to turn away from!

Low cost,incredible power,reliable and easy to mod.I am changing my middle name to Blasphemy.

yes sir.......
there are more 1000+hp turbo S38's than any other BMW engine...
the Swedes are responsible for most of that..:D

Search for 1,000 hp bmw and you should find some cool vids..

Search for 1,000 hp bmw and you should find some cool vids..

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689290&highlight=s38

Low cost,incredible power,reliable and easy to mod.I am changing my middle name to Blasphemy.


Yeah even being able to afford whatever, its still hard to turn away from the $$ savings for similar or more power.

Search for 1,000 hp bmw and you should find some cool vids..

oh you're preaching to the chior brotha!!!! i'm already knowing about these monsters, if only they weren't so damn expensive:(

on a brighter note....high horsepower M50/M52/S50/S52 cars are starting to pop up everywhere.....:buttrock

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689290&highlight=s38

oh FREAK...that is nasty sick

oh you're preaching to the chior brotha!!!! i'm already knowing about these monsters, if only they weren't so damn expensive:(

on a brighter note....high horsepower M50/M52/S50/S52 cars are starting to pop up everywhere.....:buttrock


Has anyone ever put one of those things in an E30? Scary:eek:

Has anyone ever put one of those things in an E30? Scary:eek:

enjoy and learn......going through bmwandreas's threads is a good start..
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4795371

this man is one of the most respected in the BMW FI world, too bad he's in Europe, but he's also on BFc and quite active in the FI forum....

enjoy and learn......going through bmwandreas's threads is a good start..
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4795371

this man is one of the most respected in the BMW FI world, too bad he's in Europe, but he's also on BFc and quite active in the FI forum....


Thanks man...:drool:

:buttrock oh FREAK...that is nasty sick

You guys are funny! 5,000 for a us s50?:lol A stock 2.8 m52 held up to 700whp before breaking, I think you need to stuff your pipe dreams with some bmw engines...:alright

I agree, I routinely find S50 engines for 1500-2500 complete. I've several conversions including S50-S52s into 318s. Its the easy route with great results. Good luck with what ever you choose.

Originally Posted by ParadigmGuy


Sorry--this is just what I've learned over the past few years. Great minds think alike, eh? ;^)

Haven't a few people run over 600 RWHP on stock HG and bolts?


Very true--but that is well past backyard engineering territory. If you don't know exactly what you're doing at 600 rwhp, not even a cast iron Toyota block is going to keep you from blowing internals out the side if you get your boost level even a shade past your fuel system's abilities to match. That said, you're absolutey right--it's very possible, and people do it every day.

That would be me (card counter) I beat the piss out of tha car also raced almost every other week end at the track and street raced during the week never had a problem. When I put it on the dyno and made 704whp the rod said F this shit.

As I was saying... 8^)

Sorry about your motor amigo--I know that feeling all too well. I've been there a few times, but never in the 700 rwhp range. Congrats on the numbers! Like I said, you really have to know what you're doing to get there on a stock HG.

Best,

Tex

the above was posted from the original authors (pdg. and cc) thread, that was not my engine..

Bmw with Bmw eng conversion is better for resale and the way to go, But cant lie u get more power with lsx conv less money. I think forced induction on s52 or s54 not a bad idea?

I'm still learning the BMW engine codes, but from what I've read you would have to spend a *lot* of money to get more power per dollar for anything but a nice clean turbo install on the stock M3 motor. Hartge used to offer an M5 V8 in the E46 3 coupe that would really make me drool til I did the math. 8^)

Take care,

Tex

We have done some S62 into E46 chassis, the E36 wouldnt be much different. Depends on how you want to trim it out, stock with ac or race setup with no ac. You have to realize the S62 doesnt leave you much room in an E39 M5, when you put into an E36 or E46 you are going to have to pull the front clip or drop the motor to do anything. Biggest hurdle in any of these is wiring, you need to make it look stock and have everything work correctly or it is just another butcher job. Just about any mechanic can shove a big engine in a small hole, the art comes in when you can make it look like it rolled off the assembly line like that. Good luck in your decisions, and yes putting anything other than a BMW engine in a BMW is blasphemy. LOL

Maybe I should send my car off to Salt Lake City for a while :D Keeping the AC of course, it gets hot around here in the summer. :eyecrazy

Maybe I should send my car off to Salt Lake City for a while :D Keeping the AC of course, it gets hot around here in the summer. :eyecrazy

Amen to that! No AC in the south is a death wish