And just think a year and a half ago people all told me I was crazy to build a turbo track car... Turbo=stupid fast...

I've scared myself a few times in my car out on the street:stickoutt
No track time for me until next season...Too much work..:(

THATS one monster of a car there Jon! Super cool!!!

i think you need to go do a race with some P cars and show them the power!

Dear God Jon - the straights seem soooo looooong in my videos after seeing this.

Thanks for catching me passing Scott coming down the hill at the 10 min mark! :cool

I thought that was you. Thunderhill in Oct? The weather will be balmy.

Jay

Thanks for catching me passing Scott coming down the hill at the 10 min mark! :cool

Thanks for catching me passing Scott coming down the hill at the 10 min mark! :cool

LOL...I was nothing but a hapless victim for most of the drivers last weekend!

We went over the todo list today. Not too long before our next race at Willow Springs in AUGUST. Could be even hotter!

Going to add a few more sensors to the data acq, like inlet intercooler temperature. (We already have inlet air temp at the throttle body - so we want to see how the IC is working).

Going to a larger radiator - Double Pass 4 inch thick.

Going to get some AERO HELP! Rear Diffuser and Front Dive Planes are in the works.

Nothing else major. I have to wait til the money fairy delivers more money to build my backup motor! Just trying to get the car stable for a trip to PIR and Texas for O'Fest!

jon, is that thing legal for speed world challenge GT? if it is i would think you would be fairly competative. maybe not a whole season but perhaps a one off race in your area. you should really bring it down to miller motorsports park. it would haul some major ass on the full 4.48 mile coarse. i bet w/ the full straight you would see trap speeds of 165-170 depending on aero.

not legal, it is faster then GT.

At miller it would go over 200mph. It is projected to go 180+ at CA Speedway.

Jon will not race pro, not in his cards. He can tell you why. I also agree that PRO racing is way over-rated. You get nothing but bigger bills and more politics, oh and competitors who are overly aggressive to each other rather then acting with camaraderie.

Thanks
brad

jon, is that thing legal for speed world challenge GT?

Legal? Heck no.

That said, Pro racing is an entirely different game when it comes to car prep, tuning, and driving...the WC Touring cars are running laptimes faster than most of the CMod cars in club racing.

You get nothing but bigger bills and more politics, oh and competitors who are overly aggressive to each other rather then acting with camaraderie.

Sounds fun! :D :devillook

At miller it would go over 200mph. It is projected to go 180+ at CA Speedway.

Thanks
brad

Well we will need a bit different gearing to do that. Or maybe larger rear tires like we were talking about. With the stockish head, we are RPM limited to 173 mph.

:)

wow, the acceleration that that is nuts! thats got to be so fun to drive.

congrats on the win, thanks for the video
later
mike

A little more evolution for the car today!

Time for some more downforce:

http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8070%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8073%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8074%20(Small).JPG

Also, some people wanted some shots of the new manifold:
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8076%20(Small).JPG


A previously unavailable shot of the exhaust manifold:
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8077%20(Small).JPG

A few shots of our "heat reduction technology" from Willow Springs:
As you can see these were "quick-fabbed" at the track! Great ingenuity!
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8080%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8081%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8082%20(Small).JPG


The M&W CDI's mounted on the roll cage above the "center console" area. I thought that since they are from Australia, I could mount them upside down and backwards, but turns out right side up is the best way!
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8083%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8084%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8085%20(Small).JPG

Shots of the remote coil solution:
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8087%20(Small).JPG
http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%2351/IMG_8088%20(Small).JPG

Jon, please excuse my not reading the thread thoroughly but what happened with the aluminum intake manifold? I see that you went back to running the plastic OBD1 manifold.

Thanks.

Jon, please excuse my not reading the thread thoroughly but what happened with the aluminum intake manifold? I see that you went back to running the plastic OBD1 manifold.


We had an issue with another company's "Solid Lifter Stage III Schrick Cam'd" Head. Bottom line is it was CRAP. Gave us a bunch of problems. So - I had to put a fairly mild head on the motor to get to race at Willow. Knowing we didn't have the technology now to rev to 10k rpm, we changed the aluminum manifold for a smaller one to make the car driveable. Figured smaller manifold, better throttle response, less lag. It worked!! The evosport head worked perfectly and the Willow Springs race was a success with two poll positions and two victories along with fast lap of the weekend and a BMWCCA Club Racing Lap record for Willow at 1:25.113.

Thanks!

I also had my oil cooler in front of my radiator like you do. I was running high water temps at my last race.

I have moved my oil cooler to a different location and left the front of my radiator clear now.

Soaking the incoming air to the radiator in 200+degree heat can't be helping much. Adding misters was a nice touch and new radiator like you mentioned will help but you might want to move that oil cooler anyway.....

certainly can't hurt .....

More important to keep oil cool then water! This is the set-up we run on all the race cars and have not had any cooling issues (of course if the rad is too small, it does not matter what is in front of it!)

I also had my oil cooler in front of my radiator like you do. I was running high water temps at my last race.

I have moved my oil cooler to a different location and left the front of my radiator clear now.

Soaking the incoming air to the radiator in 200+degree heat can't be helping much. Adding misters was a nice touch and new radiator like you mentioned will help but you might want to move that oil cooler anyway.....

certainly can't hurt .....


Thanks for the ideas. What series do you race in and would you have any pictures of where you moved your oil cooler to?

Jon, that car is absolutely amazing. the way you pulled on EVERY car was simply stunning.
Jake

More important to keep oil cool then water! This is the set-up we run on all the race cars and have not had any cooling issues (of course if the rad is too small, it does not matter what is in front of it!)

Well, I remember you stating this back when the first pictures were posted and people where saying the same thing I mentioned about the oil cooler.

But after reading his race report he clearly mentioned his water temp was running high at 235-245degress.That is high right? Then you guys added a water mister to help and he was able to get thru the weekend. So it sounds like you did have some cooling issues to me?

Granted it was a hot weekend but he lives and races in Cali and it will always be hot out there in the desert where we race.

I was told to aim for 190-200 degrees running oil temp and 180-200degrees running water temp. I shut my car off at my last race when I saw 230-240 temp..... (my water pump belt got loose from running over the curbs and i had the oil cooler in front of my rad so the car was already running hot all session)

Might work for your other cars Brad but this one is pushing the envelope as we all can see......plus it is a hot turbo unlike your other race cars.

I guess a bigger radiator will overcome the heat soak caused by the oil cooler. So that's one way to fix it....

Jon,

I race with VARA (www.vararacing.com (http://www.vararacing.com)) we run all over Cali. Large variety of cars to watch at our events. F1 cars, World Sports Racers, the always entertaining American sedan class with all the big bore american iron, we have a beautiful 3.0csl batmobile battling some widebody Porsche's and our c-sedan group (38 car start!) has a wide assortment of 2002's, Datsun 510, Alfa, triumph's, Volvo and even a Morgan!

We run vintage rules kinda like BMW CR but there a bit more stricter enforcement. After all some of the cars on the grid are worth over 1 million dollars or more! The atmosphere and the camaraderie are the best and I have lots of fun hangin out and racing. I was going to run with bmw CR but not many 2002's left and not much fun running with a bunch of faster newer cars. During my last race we had 10 2002's on the grid to battle the Datsun's.

My oil cooler is alot smaller than yours so i found a place for it in the air stream under my car basically. I'm building a new bumper/airdam/splitter that will have ductwork to the oilcooler. So that way it should be getting the same amount of clean air as the radiator. I know the more openings in the front will create more drag. Fortunately my car is shaped like a brick and doesn't go over 120mph most of the time so not really a concern for ME. For your application I can see not wanting to add another opening in the front......although maybe behind the driver side headlight might work or run some scoops and hoses to a remote location. I have seen many bmw racers with oil coolers in the trunk floorboard area or in the rear fender flares.... anyways looks like a bigger radiator will be fixing you cooling issues.

Here's my car, notice the lack of bumper/airdam/splitter...like I said I'm working on that

http://bmw1602.lostbrazilian.com/v1/get_thumbs_on_fly.php?imgid=3409&nw=640&nh=427

I run without the passenger seat and I have no moved the batery to the trunk....

http://bmw1602.lostbrazilian.com/v1/get_thumbs_on_fly.php?imgid=2943&nw=640&nh=480


This is a Schnitzer Turbo Group5 twin cam car producing an estimated 400-600hp from a M10 block. Notice the pronounced front cowl for the oil cooler. They had a large intercooler and radiator behind the front grill. They had diff coolers in the rear fender flares. In some 3.0csl fender flares they put the oil coolers there since it was close to their dry sump tank and they were more aero concerns with thier higher horsepower and the fact that they were running with the turbo Porsches at Daytona.


http://bmw1602.lostbrazilian.com/v1/get_thumbs_on_fly.php?imgid=624&nw=512&nh=340


Now the airdam/bumper/cowl that I'm fabricating will certainly not be as extreme but will feature a similar cowl for my front lower mounted oil cooler....

Any more pics of that Schnitzer Turbo Group5 car?????

.......

Here's my car, .......


http://bmw1602.lostbrazilian.com/v1/get_thumbs_on_fly.php?imgid=2943&nw=640&nh=480

Hey, you know I love you car, .... but you need to tend to those belts! ;) It's a bit a a scary looking install.

More progress made today on the Diffuser and Vortex Generators. I will post pics ASAP.

Visited Evosport today and checked out our POSSIBLE new wing - 13 inch chord, beautiful high downforce profile - I think I have enough power to run this one!! I need some front downforce so I can "drive the car upside down".

Also - coming soon, our new "Short Track Turbo" - a little smaller - a little quicker spooling and unfortunately, I will only be able to make 500hp with this one, down from 575whp. Oh well - I guess I can live with that. We shall see!!

Pictures to come!

Maybe since there's not Much you can do to add front downforce.....time to think about some dive planes on the front bumper?

I know they don't add that much downforce but everylittle bit can help I guess...... I know the guys in DTM love those things! They even have a bunch behind the rear wheels......

Check out the Audi below......they use 2 planes in the front and 5 ! in the rear!

Im sure they have doen lots of windtunnel testing and it's gotta help at least a little......

http://www.audiworld.com/news/05/dtm_wallpaper/dtm_siemens.jpg

Exactly what we are thinking. Dive planes are coming!

Yes, the DTM cars are insane for aero - just truly amazing. All the channeling - they are so good about utilizing the air flow efficiently. I look at them daily, just gorgeous.

BTW, the rear items are vortex generators, not dive planes.

Thanks
brad

If you guys are referring to the "winglets" coming off the rear, they are a mix of diffusers/winglets. VG's are for changing airflow to affect something behind it, those winglets are creating downforce (and drag of course). Its basically a method of reducing drag and taking advantage of the airflow (in the form of df).

I'm actually surprised they don't have more development into the airflow behind the front tires.

That diffuser is doing nothing but adding weight. Even if it's a pound or whatever.

Vortex Generators?

I remember reading a brochure for a mistubishi EVO MR and they called there many little roof shark fins "vortex generators"

Since then I always made fun of those.....since on the evo they look like they do nothing and are a gimmik.


Would love to hear some of the theory on the vortex generators on the DTM cars or race cars in general.


How does generating a vortex of air behind the car aid in downforce?


Bueler? anyone?
http://www.feloniouspunks.com/Pics/SteinBen-Ferris01B.jpg




hold on......I decided to check google before submitting my post.


here's what the great Wikipedia had to say....

"A vortex generator is an aerodynamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodynamic) surface, consisting of a small vane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vane) that creates a vortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex). They can be found in many devices, but the term is most often used in aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft) design. Vortex generators are added to the leading edge of a swept wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swept_wing) in order to maintain steady airflow over the control surfaces at the rear of the wing. They are typically rectangular or triangular, tall enough to protrude above the boundary layer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_layer), and run in spanwise lines near the thickest part of the wing. They can be seen on the wings and vertical tails of many airliners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airliner). Vortex generators are positioned in such a way that they have an angle of attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack) with respect to the local airflow.A vortex generator creates a tip vortex which draws energetic, rapidly-moving air from outside the slow-moving boundary layer into contact with the aircraft skin. The boundary layer normally thickens as it moves along the aircraft surface, reducing the effectiveness of trailing-edge control surfaces; vortex generators can be used to remedy this problem, among others, by re-energizing the boundary layer. Vortex generators delay flow separation and aerodynamic stalling; they improve the effectiveness of control surfaces"


My translation of the above seams to imply that they help keep the airflow closer to the surface therefore increasing the effectiveness of the aircraft control surfaces that are at the end of the wing structure.

This essentially keeps the boundry layer from breaking away to far from the surface disrupting a laminar flow of air which would which would when disrupted could create a low pressure region immediately behind the airfoil in question. Low pressure results in increased drag.

Basically they are there to prevent flow separation which equals drag.

So.......if I understand all this correctly this means that the "vortex generators" on a DTM car are there more to decrease drag at high speeds. Not to increase downforce. But I guess that why you have a big rear wing!

Am I right?



So it's a top speed aid not a down force aid?


Given the above information I still fail to see how those airfoil looking devices on the back of the DTM cars are vortex generators? Plus vortex generators need to be at the leading edge or before the end of the car or a wing to work. Unless or course they are attempting to reduce the low pressure zone behind the car to reduce drag......? humm maybe that it.

I can see putting it on the roof where Mitsubishi put it to increase the effectiveness of a rear wing or rear trunk lip/wing. Kinda like the roof spoilers on the old 3.0csl batmobile race cars.

http://www.mitsubishipartsstore.com/images/mrvortex.jpg


Would love to see some wind tunnel smoke shots of the dtm car in action....

or a better explantion of effectiveness on the DTM car. I know they probably spent millions developing those in a wind tunnel so they definatly have an effect. I can't imagine they are for looks!

Looks like they would be effective on the rear wind leading edge as well per this diagram. Might increase the effectiveness of the wing by decreasing drag it creates?

http://www.microaero.com/Images/What-VGs-do.gif

make your own ....you can see here what they mean by it has to be have a angle of attack in relation to the airflow....

http://www.lmglasfiber.com/upload/1.4.1_vortex.jpg


Discuss...

Yea...I started this back in 2005 on Watts car, not its in the rule book, go figure ;)

wait this is a awsome article on the subject.....using the mitsubishi as a example

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_3059/article.html

I'm longer longer making fun of those EVO VG's.......I guess they are effective.

this tends to solidify my idea that those winglets behind the rear tire are not VG's but rather little winglets generating downforce like I originally tought. I mean look at their shape and angle of attack?

I'm I wrong?

Yea...I started this back in 2005 on Watts car, not its in the rule book, go figure ;)

I heard that B.Watts only put those on his car to annoy Akard with Jedi mind games.

How does generating a vortex of air behind the car aid in downforce?

It increases the flowrate actually passing over the wing.


So it's a top speed aid not a down force aid?

Both when done properly in combination with good wing design (which never happens in amateur racing.)

Given the above information I still fail to see how those airfoil looking devices on the back of the DTM cars are vortex generators?

They aren't.


.

I pushed it hard for 3 laps. Then I managed the lead and the water temps.

No offense, but what exactly is the point of "racing" when you show up having spent ten times more money and then baby the car to victory? That's like Hamilton showing up in the MP4-22 and handing you your ass while driving at 2/10ths. What's the point? To show you can outspend the rest of the field? The only thing I'm impressed with is that you have enough money to spent on things that don't even work - made of carbon no less. :rolleyes

I heard that B.Watts only put those on his car to annoy Akard with Jedi mind games.

That was only one of our objectives :devillook

No offense, but what exactly is the point of "racing" when you show up having spent ten times more money and then baby the car to victory? That's like Hamilton showing up in the MP4-22 and handing you your ass while driving at 2/10ths. What's the point? To show you can outspend the rest of the field? The only thing I'm impressed with is that you have enough money to spent on things that don't even work - made of carbon no less. :rolleyes

When they go to events with more mods cars, especially events with porsches, there is a lot more competition, and MANY more people who spend WAY more than what he has in his car. Hell, people are racing 997 gt3 cup cars, thats about double (with running costs) of what Holders car has cost.

I think they are still considering Holders car in its main development phase, but its getting close to final "dialing in" and then its just arrive&drive with maintenance with constant little developments here and there...or until he sells it and starts another project ;)

A-HA!

Part 4 of the article addresses one of my theory about the DTM cars maybe wanting to use VG to decrease the drag to increase speed.

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_3061/article.html

he states "On the basis of the scientific evidence that is available, and the results of this test, we very much doubt whether vortex generators fitted to the trailing edges of vehicles will reduce drag."

So I was right then, the rear winglets on the DTM cars are more like dive planes than VG's.

-------------------------------


After all this discussion I'm still really excited to see what Holders new aerodynamic aids will look like!!!!!

Experimentation is FUN!

I race a 60's era car shaped like a brick so not much to play with on my car. So I'll just sit an enjoy your adventures into the world of aerodynamics!

So I was right then, the rear winglets on the DTM cars are more like dive planes than VG's.

After all this discussion I'm still really excited to see what Holders new aerodynamic aids will look like!!!!!

Experimentation is FUN!



Once you get into the more in depth aero characteristics, your assumption of similiarity between dive plane and those winglets is not accurate. They both deal with air flow, then its a free for all on their exact purpose :)

Check out what I did on Watts car.

If you like experimentation, wait until you see what I designed for my E46 :)

No offense, but what exactly is the point of "racing" when you show up having spent ten times more money and then baby the car to victory? That's like Hamilton showing up in the MP4-22 and handing you your ass while driving at 2/10ths. What's the point? To show you can outspend the rest of the field? The only thing I'm impressed with is that you have enough money to spent on things that don't even work - made of carbon no less. :rolleyes

Come'on, don't be a hater....Put down the Hateorade.

Spend as much as you want or as little as you want, go have fun.

That's all there is to it. It's club racing..........

I know with my budget am usually having as much fun as the big $$$ guys.

Come'on, don't be a hater....Put down the Hateorade.
This is one of my absolute favorite comments and posts ever - thanks!

Come'on, don't be a hater....Put down the Hateorade.

:lol :thumbup:

DTM cars are insane for aero - I look at them daily, just gorgeous.


its not nice to tease....

If a group of Mitsubishi engineers with full CFD capability and access to wind tunnel testing can only reduce the drag by ~1.7% after testing several different configurations of vortex generators I seriously doubt any club racers are going to see measurable gains by eyeballing it sticking on a bunch fins with double sided tape... I do think you can eyeball it and get more front down force w/ the dive planes, at the expense of more drag. You probably aren't going to get things in the optimum configuration but it is easy enough to test them out and see if they are making you faster or slower, especially w/ data acquisition.

Jon- It's been fun reading though your build, thanks for documenting and sharing it. Bring this car out to some POC events, you will have a lot more competition (usually 5-10 cars putting down times <1.26.xx at WSIR).

Drag is fine for these car...just get the df.

The places that are actually "engineering" are not eyeballing much, there are some places out there who actually do the math behind what you see.

And Mitsu Evo8=Marketing

yeah talk about insane aero.....

just look at the back of this car....so extreme!


http://www.fourtitude.com/news/uploads/Motorsport_News/new_dtm.jpg


no need to re-engineer anything just copy the big guys.....that's what I always say!


Hey, Cory M that ~1.7% cd reduction and it's marketing value has probably sold more cars than active steering has!

no need to re-engineer anything just copy the big guys.....that's what I always say!
Gotta copy the right people in the right way... :help

Hey, Cory M that ~1.7% cd reduction and it's marketing value has probably sold more cars than active steering has!

Doubt it. Active steering is noticeable to the average joe in terms of a back to back test. Would you notice a 1.7% decrease in the drag on your car?

no need to re-engineer anything just copy the big guys.....that's what I always say!

A) You've got to remember that the devil is in the details...just because it looks like the big boys doesn't mean it will work like them. Not to mention that none of the big boys in DTM are running BMW's, so even if you did have precise measurements, they wouldn't apply to our cars. You've got to understand exactly where the air is flowing before you start placing small winglets, etc. You can copy some ideas at best, but even that might not be a good idea because of...

B) They are operating under a VERY strict set of rules. A lot of the things you see are there because of a rule limiting them from doing something better. Exhibit A: World Challenge Touring wings...I've seen a few club racers spending $$ on them even though much better solutions could be had for the same price simply because they see them being run by the Pros. Exhibit B: If rules allowed, that DTM wing would be mounted much higher, much further back and would be much wider.

Aero is one of those areas where I prefer to KISS. You can do more harm than good. Get a good profile rear wing that is as wide and mounted as far back and as high as the rules and your budget allow. A flat splitter up front going as far back as the rules allow. Close up as much of the front openings as rules allow and channel as much of the air coming through the front into the right places as rules allow. Use some small enhancers like dive planes to fine tune if required. That will get you most of the way there and can be accomplished without the need to know a LOT about fluid dynamics and to schedule wind tunnel time. Advanced aero requires that you not only think about the aero bits, but also the spring rates, shock rates, suspension geometry, etc, etc.

Spend as much as you want or as little as you want, go have fun.

That's all there is to it. It's club racing..........

I know with my budget am usually having as much fun as the big $$$ guys.

My point isn't that people shouldn't spend money, I just don't see the reason in spending as much as the OP did. I mean, he blew past everyone in a lap. After that it just became a DE. It wasn't even a race. Other than the cool feeling of trouncing everyone else, the money seems pointless to spend. why not just built the car up to be fairly competitive and then race it to victory?

no need to re-engineer anything just copy the big guys.....that's what I always say!

The thing, is Aero is so sensitive you can't do that. It's what a lot of vendors and amateurs on a budget do, but what works on a DTM car will not work on a club racer unless its properly adapted. Aero is hard.

Gotta copy the right people in the right way... :help


Doubt it. Active steering is noticeable to the average joe in terms of a back to back test. Would you notice a 1.7% decrease in the drag on your car?

Uh...you missed my point. marketing and reality are 2 different things. DUH. We all know that.

I was just making a point that even tough it is less noticeable to the driver more kids probably bought the Evo cause of the "cool" vortex generating things than people because of AS on a BMW. Just a generalization of the difference between market demographics for kids buying EVO's for the "coolness" factory over Older BMW buyers who have a different taste.

My point isn't that people shouldn't spend money, I just don't see the reason in spending as much as the OP did. I mean, he blew past everyone in a lap. After that it just became a DE. It wasn't even a race. Other than the cool feeling of trouncing everyone else, the money seems pointless to spend. why not just built the car up to be fairly competitive and then race it to victory?



Well Mr.M,

Your looking thru it with your eyes.

Fun in in the eyes and the wallet of the beholder.

To me motorsport fun is, just going out and competing and having fun at the track driving my racecar along with other vintage racecars is fun. I don't have the funding to build or maintain a "competitive car" so I have fun with what I have.

It sounds like to you motorsport fun is, building a car to a competitive level and dicing with other competitors all race and crossing the finishline tenths ahead of your rival. As seen in many spec series.

(i'm guessing here)
To people like Jholder motorsport fun is, building the car they always wanted to build in their heads while everyone looks on and drools over their it. Then going to the race and being the fastest car our there. Since there are not many cars in BMWCCA as fast as his and he knew this before he built it, He must have fun challenging himself to drive the most extreme car he could afford to build. There is alot of fun in building and racing the craziest thing you put together. Even if you don't really have any competition. It must be a huge challenge to develop and drive such a monster of a car.

If that's how you get you fun during the race weekend what's wrong with that?

I'm not one to judge him just because his wallet is bigger. Good on him! Wish I could be as fortunate!

So you see if your the kind of person who enjoys close competition but doesn't have the budget to build a competitive car (me) than if you did manage to go club racing you would be miserable because you would not be able to be competitive. You would probably have more fun racing karts!

IF your the kind of person that enjoys being super aggressive and love wining and being the star......vintage racing is not for you. The cars are teh stars as we say in vintage racing. You would be better off Club racing or sumthing.

You get what I'm saying?

You would not have fun racing his car because you would have no one to race with right? Isn't that what your saying? Well he does!

Now I have to agree with you if Holder is the kind of person that enjoy's close racing door to door style he shouldn't of built this car. Since he clearly is in a class of his own out there!

I guess if that was his kinda of fun he be racing spec miata or formula bmw or some other spec series were racing is very close.

He is doing what gets his rocks off during a race weekend and that varies alot around the paddock. Hell some guys just come to the track to get away from their wives/families/work! Almost don't care about the racing they just enjoy hanging out! They usually end up being race day officials:)

They enjoy the racing but enjoy the camaraderie the more....

*Some enjoy the racing but winning is the most important thing ....
(usually the guy doing a dive bomb pass and taking out half the field)
(can be found frantically triple checking thier aligment or polishing thier helmets or disscussing thier latest improvement with other like minded racers)


*Some enjoy the competition but wining is not as important...
(guys in midpack or tailend charlie)
(the cars will be uglier and have more dents)
(can be found holding a beer and have a laugh at the end of the day instead of working on the car, even tough there is alot he could be doing instead)

Some enjoy building the actual race cars and developing them more than the actually racing.
(they usually open shops)
(very detail oriented and correct everybody about any mis-information)
(usually very helpful people!)

Some just like bench racing, talking about racing.
(these typically never even race but act like they do....)
(usually end up being racing fans in front of a TV or monitor.)
(Make alot of posts online on messageboards)
(Like to act like they know everthing, usually are not very knowlegable but have a strong opinion on everything)



Sounds like to me Holder is one of those that enjoys challenging himself more than the racing. It also sounds like in due time he will have some competition as well.


So you see each of us get and enjoy different things about motor sports. So if someone's version of fun is different than mine I choose not to hate on him just because his view is different than mine. Not everyone enjoys the door to door racing like you do. Funny thing is you might be gridded right next to that guy but you'll both be having fun! Funny how that works huh? To each his own as they say.....

So in sum,

Don't hate, participate! :buttrock

I even tried my hand at drifting before I realized I didn't like it much....rather scream around a track on the edge of traction...

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/components/com_forum/files/thumbs/t_drift_pedro_639.jpg

I'd say just as much as the design itself, is the setup, and that will be different for basically every car.

While you might copy some wing you see in DTM, you have no idea if a 1/4 overhang on the second wing flap will work or maybe 5/16, could be a huge difference, and you won't know until you test...ad thats assuming your design is the same, exactly the same.

The reality is there are not that many turns in the US that our unibody touring/gt cars will rely on aero for grip...suspesion/mechanical grip will still be the dominant form.

Lets assume the avg turn speed (conservatively) are 70 to 140mph (thats on the high side for fast mod cars), the start of that speed range requires an aggressive aero setup to gain much grip. On the high end of that speed range if you want a lot of df you'll have to have quite a bit of drag, which is not bad if you have the Hp.

The real trick is to get the car balanced, so you can actually drive the thing at its limit at those speeds.

I'd still sped 5x more money and time doing suspension development then aero. At the least get suspension setup, add aero and adjust accordingly.


NOW BACK ON TOPIC, ANY MORE UPDATED PICS? :)

No offense, but what exactly is the point of "racing" when you show up having spent ten times more money and then baby the car to victory? That's like Hamilton showing up in the MP4-22 and handing you your ass while driving at 2/10ths. What's the point? To show you can outspend the rest of the field? The only thing I'm impressed with is that you have enough money to spent on things that don't even work - made of carbon no less. :rolleyes

I am so glad that I am not living my life waiting on your approval. It's such a big load on my shoulders to have your negative comments. With the rolling eyes smileys and the condescending attitude. May I suggest that if you have anything more to say, you post it to another board somewhere.

Jon- It's been fun reading though your build, thanks for documenting and sharing it. Bring this car out to some POC events, you will have a lot more competition (usually 5-10 cars putting down times <1.26.xx at WSIR).

Thanks - I will be racing with POC in December most likely at Willow. I have races POC before with my E36 Widebody and always have a fun time.

Wait your coming up to Portland?!?!?! Or do you mean that crap shoot of a place in that very hot and sandy area.

Also I do like the new manifold! When I saw it I just started laffing. I am so glad BMW's stock parts are good for some good old turbo fun.

did you see the insulation on the bimmerworld project? They were having cooling issues too but it looks like they have worked the bugs out.

this kind of insulation couldn't hurt right?

Looks like a good idea....

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/touring/insulated%21.jpg

I'm interested to see how the Uberwagon does during actual driving, so far its only passed the dyno test on low boost. Very good progress, but a ways to go in terms of real life driving. I'm looking forward to the incar, should be sweet.

I dunno, we ran for 3 days in 100+ (up to 119) heat and never once had a failure and won both races. Seems like we might have some bugs worked out. :)

Edit to get rid of subscribe.

A few more aerodynamic upgrades that we will be testing at Willow Springs next weekend. Just looking for a little more bite out of the front in high speed sweepers. But only the times will tell if they work or not.

Sorry for the blurry images - CameraPhone.

Still need a bit more fitment work - but here they are.

200731

200732

200733

Also - I forgot if I posted some pictures from the Willow Springs weekend. Here are a few:

Saturday Warm-Up: Coming Into the pits for tire temps.
Note the nice big red "e" on the hood for evosport.
200745


Sunday Practice: Turn 4, top of the hill at Willow.
"e" GONE - needed to cut the hood and add some louvers for extra cooling vents.
200746


Sunday Qualifying: Turn 6, it doesn't seem like much of a turn, but the left side is pretty compressed for this little dogleg right.
200747


Sunday Race Start - First Lap - Turn 3.
Leading Claudio Pecora (CM), Matt Bell (DM) and Ralph Warren (HP)
200748

So mucy fun in 119 degree heat that we are DOING IT AGAIN - next weekend - Aug 11, 12 - come on out to visit!

Jon, now that you're running a semi stock head, does that mean that you are back to using hydrolic lifters?

Dino

Jon, now that you're running a semi stock head, does that mean that you are back to using hydrolic lifters?

Dino

Yep - Hydraulic head.

Evosport currently has a cam profile for my use. It will go in after we get back from O'Fest in Texas.

We are focussed on reliability right now - stock cam.

Engine development is static right now.

Yep - Hydraulic head. Evosport currently has a cam profile for my use. It will go in after we get back from O'Fest in Texas. Just working on reliability right now - stock cam.

How did your power band shift with the new head, seems like its much more drivable....

How did your power band shift with the new head, seems like its much more drivable....

Evosport has worked very hard on driveability. The hydro head obviously limited our rpm range to 7200. The power band is now from 4k to 7k, where before it was from 5k to 10k (although we never really were able to get much above 9k with the ignition issues we had - now solved with the M&W and a new head which isn't disintegrating with every minute).

So - effectively we are down about 1k rpm in total usable range. But the turbo doesn't "hit" as hard and the driver (me :)) has kinda started to figure out how to drive it and time the boost hit. This little 2 liter motor doesn't spin the turbo with as much gusto as a 2.8l would, but once the turbo gets going, it's a wonderful motor.

We have decided to reduce the turbo size with this head and are working on a recirculation plan to route air from one of the blow off valves back into the turbo to help it spool.

Finally, evosport has what will be the ultimate solution (their new camshaft profile) and like I said, I haven't wanted to employ it becuase I want stability til we get back from Texas. That means I have 3 more race weekends on this head until I put the new one on for Thurnderhill in October, Buttonwillow in November and Willow Springs (with POC) in December.

Thanks for the interest!

I suppose you've checked, but the Rosamond forecast for next weekend is for a cool 97 degrees. :crazya At least it's still in double digits I guess, better than last month!


I just noticed on your sig that you're putting down ~ 670 hp. That's almost 500 more than my car. HOLY SH!T!!!. Sorry, back to the thread...

I suppose you've checked, but the Rosamond forecast for next weekend is for a cool 97 degrees. :crazya At least it's still in double digits I guess, better than last month!

Yehaaw!!! I'll bring my long underwear! It will be positively chilly if it's only 97!!!! Oh oh oh - I can only hope for 45 to 50 mph wind!! That would be AWESOME!

No offense, but what exactly is the point of "racing" when you show up having spent ten times more money and then baby the car to victory? That's like Hamilton showing up in the MP4-22 and handing you your ass while driving at 2/10ths. What's the point? To show you can outspend the rest of the field? The only thing I'm impressed with is that you have enough money to spent on things that don't even work - made of carbon no less. :rolleyes


Found the official hatorade ad for Mr.M

just put it down............I know it's hard ....

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/911165/Hatorade.jpg

I'm just playin' Mr.M don't take me too seriously.......

I like it :buttrock

Great job the winglets/diveplanes/spoiler/airdam is starting to take shape and hopefully plant the front tires around fast corners like turn 8 and turn 2....

good luck guys......

come back with trophies and lap records :redspot

How was this car not put into the GRM Ultimate Track Car competition. Sure, it was at VIR, but it would have been worth it...

Nice build. If I don't mind asking Jon, what do you do for a living? As someone still young and building wealth to create such projects, I'm always looking for direction from someone a little older, wiser (and richer :)).

Randall Prince

At no level is competing in club-racing cheap, even a proper PREP car costs many many thousands of dollars. One thing that does make it is cheaper is sponsorship. This build is by no means one the most expensive in Porsche and BMW CR, it is just one of the only ones at this level of prep that's publicized. And for that we should be thanking Jon and ES rather than attacking them.

Your standard Gt3 club racer spends about double what even guys like Jon spend (who race as much as he does), factor in the couple crazy guys who run former ALMS/Rolex cars, gt3rsr's, etc...and these look like cheap alternatives :)

You also forgot to mention one of the biggest factors (well the biggest) that can reduce the cost ...doing the work yourself! Although, for a project of this caliber, there is a limited group that can do such quality work (especially in such a short time period).

My E46 would cost about the same (if not more) than Jon's project, but out of pocket I'll probably be spending half of what he has...although he does basically get to race 12 months a year, and my project will take this winter to complete, damn north east weather (blessing in disguise though, allows downtime to do upgrades, or in this case a full build).

Speaking of Evosport, I just checked their website, and its a bit revamped, looking good! They also have a new Evosport race car team page, very cool!
http://evosport.com/motorsport/evosportracecars/racecars.aspx

I don't understand one posting negatively about the build costs of a car when one has absolutely no idea of what those build costs are?

I don't understand one posting negatively about the build costs of a car when one has absolutely no idea of what those build costs are?

Don't interupt his tirade with fact Scott!!! It makes too much sense!

How was this car not put into the GRM Ultimate Track Car competition. Sure, it was at VIR, but it would have been worth it...

Well two factors:

1. It IS in VIR. The costs to go are prohibitive, especially for an event that would not have a lot of return on that investment from a sales and marketing standpoint. It will be at Time Attack I believe though.

2. Current prep is focussed on PIR and O'Fest - we cannot afford to have a distraction that prevents this and our others cars being ready for this event.

Thanks
Brad

Your standard Gt3 club racer spends about double what even guys like Jon spend (who race as much as he does), factor in the couple crazy guys who run former ALMS/Rolex cars, gt3rsr's, etc...and these look like cheap alternatives :)

I don't buy that. The GT3 cup comes ready to race, no messing around with experimental engine management systems, manifolds, cam profiles, turbos, heads, etc. You can buy used 996 cup cars for $85k all day long, even as cheap as $65k for a car with few updates and a high hour motor. Most people with cup cars pay for track support but there are also guys out there who tow it to the track and race without a support crew just like any other car. Cup cars have been around for a long time so the development and experimentation has been done. There is tons of parts and aftermarket support available, but most groups limit what you can do to the car so you won't have to go out and buy the latest trick parts to stay competitive. A 997 cup car or 996 RSR is a lot more expensive to buy ($150-175k) but again you are buying a developed car that is ready to race, you can spend your time tuning it instead of experimenting with new parts; and when the engine hours get high there are countless shops that can rebuild it (including Porsche Motorsport).

GT3 Cups are excellent cars, but it would be pretty boring if there weren't guys like Jon and Evosport pushing the envelope and developing new cars. I think this BMW is way more interesting and unique than a cup car.

I don't buy that. The GT3 cup comes ready to race, no messing around with experimental engine management systems, manifolds, cam profiles, turbos, heads, etc. You can buy used 996 cup cars for $85k all day long, even as cheap as $65k for a car with few updates and a high hour motor. Most people with cup cars pay for track support but there are also guys out there who tow it to the track and race without a support crew just like any other car. Cup cars have been around for a long time so the development and experimentation has been done. There is tons of parts and aftermarket support available, but most groups limit what you can do to the car so you won't have to go out and buy the latest trick parts to stay competitive. A 997 cup car or 996 RSR is a lot more expensive to buy ($150-175k) but again you are buying a developed car that is ready to race, you can spend your time tuning it instead of experimenting with new parts; and when the engine hours get high there are countless shops that can rebuild it (including Porsche Motorsport).

Agree completely. Thanks for taking the time to respond to Steve's claim. One additional material comment would be resale value as well. Most people simply look at operating costs. With GT3 Cup cars, you will get back most of your money upon resale. As nice as this car is, Jon will be lucky to get 1/2 of it back. Again, this is obviously not a concern to Jon, but it is to most racers.

GT3 Cups are excellent cars, but it would be pretty boring if there weren't guys like Jon and Evosport pushing the envelope and developing new cars. I think this BMW is way more interesting and unique than a cup car.

Agree here as well. I am really enjoying this thread. Jon is my hero. Back on topic!

As nice as this car is, Jon will be lucky to get 1/2 of it back. Again, this is obviously not a concern to Jon, but it is to most racers.


I found with my last racecar I got back about 75% of the BUILD cost - NOT THE FULLY ALLOCATED RUNNING COSTS - by parting it out. It felt bad to see it slowly whittled away to a chassis only, but thats the way I got the most money. :(

What are the plans for the headlight / air intake?

Actually, besides a little clean up - I think the headlight/intake is about done. The area behind the filter is tinned in to flow air past the header (for cooling) and out the hood vents.

The filter gets great airflow there, and I'm going for function over form. WORKS GREAT!

When is the race in Portland that you are going to do? Might be willing to do the long drive down there for that.

Love the car and thanks for the updates, great to see people pushing the limits and doing new things.

Jon- looks like you guys have a great start on the aero package! I was wondering if you log accelerometer data for g load (in any axis)? I am interested to hear what you can achieve? Also, do you currently log shock potentiometers, for actual downforce?

Thanks, Nate.

We DO have G-Data in 3 axis.

Also, we have suspension potentiometers on each corner.

Finally, we are going to Willow Springs this weekend (the same place we were at in July). So we will have GREAT back-to-back data.

Sorry: PIR = Phoenix International Raceway.

To get a real number on sustained lateral g-force he'll need to go on a skid pad.

At speed with aero, I bet he can get some pretty good sustained laterial G's, probably around 1.5...on the skidpad I'd bet 1.1-1.3 (depending on the diameter/speed).

The shock pots can help with determining aero characteristics, but there are problems in that method. Aero sensors should be used instead, and direct loads from wings/chassis.

Hey Jon,

I've failed to read every single page of your build. I'm curious about the weight of your car. What's your race running weight?

Car looks absolutely wicked. I love it. Wish you'd get that beast out here on the east coast!

...
Car looks absolutely wicked. I love it. Wish you'd get that beast out here on the east coast!

There will a turbo e46 around these woods soon enough (I hope :shifty)

Hey Jon,

I've failed to read every single page of your build. I'm curious about the weight of your car. What's your race running weight?

Car looks absolutely wicked. I love it. Wish you'd get that beast out here on the east coast!

Race weight is 2575 without driver.

I would love to get out to the East Coast, but a family issue for one of the evosport drivers is keeping us close to home this year, except for O'Fest.

Race weight is 2575 without driver.

I would love to get out to the East Coast, but a family issue for one of the evosport drivers is keeping us close to home this year, except for O'Fest.


That weight's a bit higher than what I would've expected. Is it still a work in progress or has everything been done that relates to weight? I suppose when you're making that kind of power, weight is not that vital when we're talking 100-200 lbs.

So, we'll see you next year out here!?

Its heavy b/c there is a lot of motor stuff going on. Big turbo, big intercooler, dry sump, etc. The car is standard E46 "lightweight" otherwise.

As you said though, with that kind of power, 2450 or 2575 would not make a gigantic difference, as the cornering speed will be dependant more on getting the power down then ultimate mechanical grip.

I'm shooting for 2350 on my e46, we'll see how close I get with stock rear bumper, fenders and 1/4 panels.

Need more power....I got less weight!

Need more power....I got less weight!

Whats your weight down to?

Whats the car's current spec?

You don't always need more power, there are many BMWCCA guys consistently in the top 5 who have pretty standard engine setups, and just a very well setup chassis and a solid driver.

On the other hand, having more usable power on tap never hurts either ;) (thats assuming it does not raise your risk of being unreliable, to win you have to finish)

I think I have lost 5 pounds in the past 2 weeks. Oh wait...you are asking about the car. The one time I weighed it, it was 2473 with me (~290 pounds in it)....so just under 2200 pounds.

Car is a E30 M3 with a Euro 3.2...fully gutted, but no special swiss cheese features (trying to figure out how to plug the holes I got).

More power is always nice, but as it sits with a stock motor, I would be right at the very tip top of GTS4 on slicks. I think I will even skip cams and AN with CF intake on it....leave it stock (which is one of the main reasons I went with the Euro motor- stock reliability).

Back to the topic of Jon's car....that I will get to see at Ofest.

Does your E30 have a standard 8pt cage?

Just under 2200lbs is decent for a euro 3.2 in an e30, should get you up there in the top 5 assuming good driver skill. Most of the E30'sI know that are lighter (2000-2100) are all S14's.

More importantly, what suspension/tires are you running?

I think Jon's car has a LOT more in it, especially when the power output is lowered. Using 100% of 500hp is better than 75% of 600hp ;)

I can't wait to see this next round of development from Evosport.

Is there such thing as "standard 8 point"? Pretty typical CM E30 cage I think. The one thing I would like to go back an add is foot protection bars. I figure with the manual rack I am probably 50 pounds over an S14. But that is just a guess.

Your memory isn't real good is it Steve? Iam runnign ProTrac double adjustables. Wheels are 18x10s.

Yea, there is such a thing as standard 8pt :)

Definitely should have foot protection, mandatory really.

My memory is not good...you know how many people are on this forum and who I have spoken to about suspesion, sorry :(

Now I remember your setup though. Did you race this season?

Due to all the rain this year in Texas, the car has been at painter's for 6 months. Still needs to go back and get some wet sanding and finishing on part of it does, but I needed it back to get the car ready for Ofest. The car needs a real driver to be competitive (also needs to tuned as it doesn't have much track time since I "finished" it- read got it to the point it could run without falling apart).

Man, screw the paint, toss on some vinyl and go to town! The paint is just going to get fubarred anyways. :)

I wish I could fly down and watch the Ofest race, it should be an awesome event.

Vinyl is more expensive than paint...I checked.

The car needs a real driver to be competitive

:wave Anytime Bruce

:D

Nice Vid of WSIR. What is wrong with you camera recorder? It appears to record fast. Your lap time seems to be 1.00 to 1.10 according to my watch against the video feed vs your stated lap time of 1:25. I used the same start and stop points. Just looks too fast in the video for a 1:25. If this was your time and you flew by those other cars, they must have been running 1:40 to 1:50. Car looks amazingly flat. Job well done.

I noticed that too. I am not sure if it was the upload to Google or my capture rate off the camera to the computer. I am going to try some more after this weekend and see if I can figure it out.

...Your lap time seems to be 1.00 to 1.10 according to my watch against the video feed .....

Someone call up Andretti, it took 20 years but his record has finally been broken :stickoutt

Can't wait to see your car in action Jon. Sorry to hear about willow springs. You and Mickey both.

Man, too bad you don't have your e36 widebody c-mod car anymore. That thing was craaaazzzy fast at the club races.

Man, too bad you don't have your e36 widebody c-mod car anymore. That thing was craaaazzzy fast at the club races.

The point of building this one....is to go faster, which it seems to be doing! ;) It is still a C-Mod car too!

Jon,

I scanned through the post (again :) ) but didn't see details on the tire/wheel setup and I didn't notice at the track. Are you running a staggered setup or the same all around? I know you've talked about bigger tires in the back.

Thanks,

Rob.

I run 18x10 inch Enkei Wheels with 280/650/18 Yokohama Slicks. At Willow Springs I run the 01 compound on the left (soft) and the 00 compound on the right (super soft).

I feel like the car would be faster with a bit more rear tire, the current tires get pretty greasy after about 5 or 6 laps, but we haven't done enought testing to be sure, and we haven't played with compounds. On my old E36 widebody I ran the same width tire front and rear (280) but on the rear I ran a 680 tall tire. Before I flare the rear of the E46, I think we will try a different compound on the rear to try and get them to heat up at about the same rate.

Right now we are chasing a head gasket issue. Apparently, to get my little 2.1 liter motor to be able to chase down and pass Vipers on the front straight at Willow, we are running so much boost that the HG is not holding. And according to the evosport research, we are looking at some pretty drastic means to keep the head from lifting/moving if I want to run this type of power - so I need to find another money tree soon to go to the next step (God forbid we turn donw the boost any:))!! We have the next generation solution coming out for testing before PIR, and I hope it holds for PIR and Texas O'Fest. We are striving for reliability right now.

Hahaha, he caught the boost bug....

Now it will never end, you will want as much boost as possible!!!!

So back on topic, how much psi does your HG take before it quits?

Jon,

As Paul and I were leaving the track I commented that we had a radiator cap problem at one point too, but that replacing the head gasket seemed to fix it. Funny how that works ;) We were a little slower to catch on and had upgraded the radiator, purchased a few caps, and replaced the thermostat before reality set in. Thankfully, it wasn't our current motor.

Hahaha, he caught the boost bug....

Now it will never end, you will want as much boost as possible!!!!

So back on topic, how much psi does your HG take before it quits?

Right now it is letting go at 21 psi. We are going to drop it to 15 psi and see how she does. It will make about 100 hp less than it does now, but should be sufficient for BMW Club Racing. Now, if I go chasing Vipers again, it may not work, but I just don't have the funds right now to do some of the things needed to run it at higher boost. Need a couple of companies to go public!!

Ok, we've done lots of work since our last outing. Our plan was to make it to PIR and O'Fest but we missed both.

Car was on the Dyno last night at evosport with a lot of new development.
New Head with crazy non-stock BMW Seats designed to withstand the heat this motor is producing. It's AMAZINGLY worked and uses all the top end components!
New evosport developed FI cams.
Installed 12 dowels to locate the head on the block.
New Head gasket.
Reworked water flow into the head to better dissipate heat.
Went to a smaller turbo to flatten torque curve and make the motor more driveable.

All this has resulted in a little less peak HP, but a more usable torque curve. I will post a graph later today, but the numbers are:
450whp and 380wtq. Should be a very driveable combination and I am hoping it will help with HG longevity.

We are going testing at Willow this Friday and then racing at Buttonwillow in 2 weeks with NASA. Our next BMW CCA Race will be Thunderhill in a month.

Jon,

Great to hear your making strides and improvement. What is the event at Willow and how do you get on for testing?

Jon,

Great to hear your making strides and improvement. What is the event at Willow and how do you get on for testing?

Willow has "Open Test Days" on the Friday before a competition event. SCCA is racing this weekend, so the track is open for car testing on Friday. You have to buy a "Willow Springs Card" - which I think is $75 for the calendar year, and then testing is I think $150 per time.

Next weekend, Willow is hosting Motorcycle racing, so the Friday test day would be for motorcycles only.

Call the track for more info!

Glad to see things moving in the right direction.

I like the dowel idea. I might have to try that out when I build my new motor:D

hmmm How are you moving the water? I thought about changing mine around but decided it looked to hard.

Yup..big turbo=not drivable... Smaller turbo=drivable like a big V8 motor.

All the FI guys would think I have a pee wee turbo but my torque curve looks like a big flat line! My car feels like it has a huge NA motor!

Glad to see things moving in the right direction.

Thanks! We shall test and see! :)

By the way, I should have said that those numbers are at 11psi and the turbo will go above that for sure!


I like the dowel idea. I might have to try that out when I build my new motor:D

hmmm How are you moving the water? I thought about changing mine around but decided it looked to hard.

Yup..big turbo=not drivable... Smaller turbo=drivable like a big V8 motor.

All the FI guys would think I have a pee wee turbo but my torque curve looks like a big flat line! My car feels like it has a huge NA motor!

I don't know how we are moving the water!! The evosport guys said we are going to plumb the head for more water, and I wrote the check! Seriously, it looks like there is a line from the water pump housing to the back of the head. I would imagine that is the water line. I'll try to get more info.

I like the dowel idea. I might have to try that out when I build my new motor:D
I'd be careful with dowels. They can put the wrong stresses in the wrong places. Its primarily clamping force (even clamping) that you need.


hmmm How are you moving the water? I thought about changing mine around but decided it looked to hard.
The only thing I've seen as an "issue" water wise is cooling for the middle cylinders. The holes in a stock HG are quite small. The rest of the cooling system is ok.

If I were building a race motor, I would probably change the location of the thermostat. You'd need to make sure the pump isn't cavitating at the high engine speeds too.

Yup..big turbo=not drivable... Smaller turbo=drivable like a big V8 motor.
:D

All the FI guys would think I have a pee wee turbo but my torque curve looks like a big flat line! My car feels like it has a huge NA motor!
Not "all" the FI guys... ;)

I'd be careful with dowels. They can put the wrong stresses in the wrong places. Its primarily clamping force (even clamping) that you need.


We also upgraded the head studs to just under half inch. We have clamping force!!!

Thanks! We shall test and see! :)

By the way, I should have said that those numbers are at 11psi and the turbo will go above that for sure!
excellent. should be even more available on top of those already great numbers. :)



I don't know how we are moving the water!! The evosport guys said we are going to plumb the head for more water, and I wrote the check! Seriously, it looks like there is a line from the water pump housing to the back of the head. I would imagine that is the water line. I'll try to get more info.
Usually there is a water port back there to feed the heater core (on a production car). Are they pushing water into that? I could see that helping with head temps. Though you could probably get the same result by moving more water into the head through the block/head interface too.

Too bad you'll miss O'fest. I'll bet many were looking forward to being on track with you and seeing it scream.

Wish I was closer. I'd love to join you.

I'll see you at TH next month.

Jay

Here are some pics of the new Inconel Heat shielding we are using on the turbo cars from Evosport.

My Car - Heat shield on the turbo:
http://www.sendpix.com/albums/07100110/bt3ehdsmv7/7.jpg


Bottom Mount Turbo shield:
http://www.sendpix.com/albums/07100110/bt3ehdsmv7/4.jpg


Shield over a SPA manifold:
http://www.sendpix.com/albums/07100110/bt3ehdsmv7/5.jpg

Brad can give you the technical details, but I can tell you we saw a 700 degree drop between my unshielded header and the shielded hot side of the turbo.

AMAZING!!

we saw a 700 degree drop between my unshielded header and the shielded hot side of the turbo.

AMAZING!!

Very! :eek:

we saw a 700 degree drop between my unshielded header and the shielded hot side of the turbo.



WOW!!!!!! :eyecrazy:eyecrazy

Here are some pics of the new Inconel Heat shielding we are using on the turbo cars from Evosport.


I take it you replaced the blanket that you had for the turbo before with the new, custom Inconel? How effective was the old blanket and what did you do with it? :D

I take it you replaced the blanket that you had for the turbo before with the new, custom Inconel? How effective was the old blanket and what did you do with it? :D

Yes

I don't know.

and

Returned to Turbonetics as part of my sponsorship agreement.

Ok, the guys at evosport just called me and told me my new numbers.

Remember, 2 liter M52 motor. It has a little smaller turbo than it had before, but an AMAZING new head and new evosport turbo cams.

Ready ???





567 whp
445 wtq
@ 16 psi



I will get a graph and post it soon, but I am told its a pretty flat torque curve from 4500 to 8500.

That's amazing. Congrats! We obviously need to get some serious head work done.

What dyno do they use?

Damn. Let me know when you're ready to sell this one!! Well done!

They are always for sale!! How about $150,000???

:)

567 whp
445 wtq
@ 16 psi

I am told its a pretty flat torque curve from 4500 to 8500.

:buttrock

Jon-

Put the pass seat in and give me a ride? Never mind, I'll just sit on the Maytag :D

Jay

$40k and I'll throw in the old car!:D Sounds like it will be waaaaay more driveable. and in turn, even faster. You better be in my neck of the woods for O' fest next year!











We can exchange ownership then.

I take it you replaced the blanket that you had for the turbo before with the new, custom Inconel? How effective was the old blanket and what did you do with it? :D

The inconel coverings are not that expensive. We will have them for about every turbo on the market and they are less then $400 per turbo I believe. No maintenance and simple installation plus FAR more effective then the blankets.

Thanks
Brad

567 whp
445 wtq
@ 16 psi

Holy crap! :eek:

I'm not even going to see you lapping me, am I? :help

Wait till you see what Lagoni and my dad's LTW will make with .8 more displacement! :devillook

Wait till you see what Lagoni and my dad's LTW will make with .8 more displacement! :devillook

I think it might be INSANE! I can tell you, even when I ran Willow with "only" 450whp in July, it was INSANE. I can't imagine what a 2.8 or 3 liter motor would be like with this amount of boost. What? Maybe 700 to 800 whp? That would be crazy!

Wait till you see what Lagoni and my dad's LTW will make with .8 more displacement! :devillook

:icon15

yep big J - 700 wheel will be no problem, although we will run lower boost settings to keep it under 500 wheel in race trim.

thanks
Brad

Insane build. I would love to drive a car like that at Laguna for a few laps.

If I pretended to be deathly ill, could you help me with my dying wish?:stickoutt

I just uploaded a video to Google of some exterior camera footage of our Friday Test day. Here is the link CLICK HERE (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8275209268008378492&hl=en)

The footage is from a handheld camera and the wind was blowing hard (when is it ever calm at Willow?) - so don't give me any cr@p about the shaking!

This was the first run of the evosport 2.8 liter turbo racecar of Carl Lagoni and an ongoing development day for my 2 liter turbo car. In short, an AMAZING test day! My car ran without any issues and was putting down times close to the Willow BMWCCA Club Racing C-Mod record (which this car also holds) with cr@p tires. It was MUCH easier to drive with the smaller turbo and that was with only 11psi of boost - it can go to 16psi. Water and oil temps ran 200 degrees all day long (of course it was 50 degrees at Willow) - so I am confident in the good work we have done with the cooling system.

Next race is Buttonwillow with NASA next weekend, then BMWCCA at Thunderhill 2 weeks after that.

very nice...any pics of the blue turbo beast?? :)

very nice...any pics of the blue turbo beast?? :)

Brad may post some up, but it's not my car to reveal!! :)

It is a very cool turbo setup - that uses a proven set of components - I am betting Brad will announce some info about it soon.

Brad may post some up, but it's not my car to reveal!! :)

It is a very cool turbo setup - that uses a proven set of components - I am betting Brad will announce some info about it soon.

I was over at Streets yesterday on the bike. I rode over to the top of the hill to watch you guys and take a few pics. I only got one pic of Holder but a few of the blue car. Sweet cars.
I always knew when you were coming cuz that turbo was whining as you blew by our pits going into 8.
And what was this? Sweet cars out there yesterday.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/1500484558_433646312a.jpg

Brad may post some up, but it's not my car to reveal!! :)

It is a very cool turbo setup - that uses a proven set of components - I am betting Brad will announce some info about it soon.

Cool, is it laguna??....how about just an exterior shot?? :)

I have a laguna fetish :naughty

Cool, is it laguna??....how about just an exterior shot?? :)

I have a laguna fetish :naughty

Yes, it's SMURF blue - here's a pic:

http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%23611/IMG_0795.JPG

Also, just go to this link for more public pics of this car (THERE ARE SEVERAL THAT SHOW OLD CONFIGURATION): CLICK HERE (http://www.evosport.com/public/customer_cars/bmw/e46/M3%23611)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/1500484558_433646312a.jpg

That's a beautiful Porsche 962. It was pitted next to us. It is truly beautiful, but I think the driver might have been a little tentative with it, since it was lapping slowly.

Did you two get to hook up and test (play) together??

That's a beautiful Porsche 962. It was pitted next to us. It is truly beautiful, but I think the driver might have been a little tentative with it, since it was lapping slowly.

Beautiful car, can't really blame him. That thing is a piece of history.

These evosport machines are bordering on rediculous, and to think all this development for club racing! You guys should go pro.

Beautiful car, can't really blame him. That thing is a piece of history.

These evosport machines are bordering on rediculous, and to think all this development for club racing! You guys should go pro.

The development of BMW turbo motors is not really applicable to any current series with the possible exception of attempting to run a 335i car in WC-GT or Koni-GS.

I just uploaded a video to Google of some exterior camera footage of our Friday Test day.
Thanks for the vid. The cars look great - looking forward to seeing them at THill.

The development of BMW turbo motors is not really applicable to any current series with the possible exception of attempting to run a 335i car in WC-GT or Koni-GS.

I think you missed the point...these are developed for BMWCCA ;) Its more fun than racing professional, less politics and stress.

Its more fun than racing professional, less politics and stress.

now that's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

Jon, your Spece30 still alive?

Jon, your Spece30 still alive?

alive, kicking, racing, etc.

Update -

Diffuser pics and New Rear Wing.

208528

208529

Racing this weekend with NASA in their Super Unlimited Class. I would have to add about 50 lbs and drop the HP about 50 whp to make the GTS5 class - so I would rather just go run with the Vipers and Corvettes this weekend.

Also - leakdown and compression tests were passed with flying colors - so I am hopeful this new HG and head configuration is working well after 3 nights on the dyno and one full full full test day at Willow Springs.

Update -

Diffuser pics and New Rear Wing.

Racing this weekend with NASA in their Super Unlimited Class. I would have to add about 50 lbs and drop the HP about 50 whp to make the GTS5 class - so I would rather just go run with the Vipers and Corvettes this weekend.

Also - leakdown and compression tests were passed with flying colors - so I am hopeful this new HG and head configuration is working well after 3 nights on the dyno and one full full full test day at Willow Springs.

Needs bigger end plates, maybe they can work on that for you ;)

Compared to your old wing (in sig) that baby's got some down angle. Beofre long you'll have to add some wheelie bars ;)

Jay

Needs bigger end plates, maybe they can work on that for you ;)

You know, I was pretty disappointed in how SMALL those end plates were also!! :)

Compared to your old wing (in sig) that baby's got some down angle. Beofre long you'll have to add some wheelie bars ;)

Jay

Yep - this is evosports new HIGH DOWNFORCE wing profile.

Do they have figures for how much downforce it generates at different speeds?

you can look up the specs in the NASA database of wings. It is a modified wortner FX profile.

Thanks
brad

I haven't compared the airfoil, but I beleive it is close to this one HERE (http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/afplots/fx73cl3152.gif)

http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/afplots/fx73cl3152.gif

Great Friday Test day and Saturday race day at Buttonwillow. I think we finally discovered the heat absorbing limitations of the brakes without ANY ducting as I boiled the fluid about 8 laps into the Saturday race with the NASA Super Unlimited group - Vipers and Corvettes. I had one "lack of talent" incident where I ran wide on the opening lap after passing 3 cars in the first 3 turns (I qualified 6th during a damp session with 2 incidents that caused double yellows after only 2 laps). But even with my lack of talent incident, I came back to pass a few more cars before retiring with boiled fluid (pedal to the floor, could pump it back up, but it simply wasn't important enough to write off the car if I made a mistake). I would say the car was as fast as any car on track - just need to work out the little things and continue to build on the reliability!

FYI - Oil and Water temps were EXTREMELY stable all weekend at 200 to 215 degrees. Motor ran flawlessly. Gary at evosport got the suspension working awesome even with trash tires.

Here are some pics from the weekend:

Ready to go race
208965


208966

208967

Passing a Viper at the Start
208968

RX7 has a "lack of talent moment" entering front straight
208969

How did the front aero work?

How did the front aero work?

The real test will be back at Willow Springs in December, where the average speeds are much higher - or - maybe at Thunderhill in two weeks where there are some high speed turns. The only realy turn at Buttonwillow with any amount of speed is "Riverside" where the car performed great! I could drive any line I wanted to - the car just worked.

Sweet. Lots of fun to live vicariously through some one else's toys!

The real test will be back at Willow Springs in December...

12/8-9 with TCRA? Or 12/1-2 with POC?

12/8-9 with TCRA? Or 12/1-2 with POC?

12/1-2 with POC.

Thunderhill Race Report 10/27 - 10/28:

The evosport 2.1 liter Turbo is certainly formidable on the track. Saturday we awoke to an absolutely gorgeous day. 55 degrees (going up to 75 as the high) and not a cloud in the sky - just a beautiful northern California day. Having shaken down the car on Friday with a driving school group, I felt confident we were going to have a great weekend! Got dressed and strapped in the car, great feeling driving out of the pits first, leading the group around just cause I got to the grid early, not cause I deserve it, warming up the tires and brakes, check the gauges, all good and then, just as I think I am ready I crest the hill after turn 9 and nail the throttle just to add a little speed to the warmup, motor pulls strong and then snap - wheel spin, car moves right, slides and I am off. Stupid mental mistake on my part - just one of those what the "f" am I doing mistakes. DUMB with a capital D. Tore the bumper/splitter off the car and instantly put me behind the 8 Ball. drag the brake ducts back into the paddock, get out of the car, go into the trailer and yell at myself. I was literally ready to pack it up - the bumper was gone, out on the track somewhere.

212443212445



After calming down, and retrieving the bumper, work commenced on seeing if we could use enough duct tape, aluminum, chewing gum and bailing wire to get it fixed. The crew did an amazing job and after a couple of hours of work I had a duct tape splitter and aluminum sheet reinforced fiberglass bumper - a work of art! :)

I had missed qualifying so I had the honor of starting the race from the back - this was going to be a 40 minute affair - about double the length of our normal races with BMWCCA, so it would be a great test of the car and driver combo. I convined myself that a repeat of the morning's stupidity would not be the most productive thing for morale, so I warmed everything thoroughly (it also helped that the race was in the afternoon and the track had some temp to it - a fact I wondered why I didn't recognize in the morning).

Green flag dropped and I accelerated with ABSOLUTELY no where to go. The track was just full of cars ahead of me. It wasn't until turn 2 that I started making any headway and when we all almost came to a stop at the top of the cyclone (turn 5), I had passed probably a third of the field. The problem was that Henry Schmidt (PTG Widebody CM Car) and Carl Lagoni (E46 M3 2.8 l evosport turbo BM) were rocketing off in the distance and I still had 20 cars to get past before I could even start mixing it up with them.
212446
I literally spent the next 35 minutes reeling in the leaders until on the second to the last lap I passed Henry down the front straight and was comfortable enough in second (1st in class) to just sit there and let my sister team car take the overall. However, exiting turn 8I spied traffic ahead, and Carl was going to catch it at exactly the wrong time (right at the apex of 9). I thought to myself, "self, let Carl have this unless he gets REALLY held up and Henry gets a run on me." Well, guess what? Carl got absolutely hosed at the apex of 9 and I late apex'd the corner, got on the throttle early and motored passed him down the hill (all the while thinking, "idiot, this is where you spun this morning, don't throw it away here"). I went on to take the checkered 4 turns later for a last to first win. 212444
It was awesome, and I couldn't have done it without evosport! The team did a fantastic job of getting me a bumper that looked darn good from 10 feet away.

I skipped Sunday morning practice (I was remembering the previous morning and I must have learned) and went out in quali. Something was immediately wrong - misfires. I pulled it in, evosport did a compression check and all 6 holes were low compression - weekend over.

We don't know why all six are low - usually if you zing a motor or bend something one hole is low. The only other time we have had this problem we found out the block was actually twisted. So we shall see. The car went to SEMA and was on display for a week in the Rotora booth. It got good reviews from some of the websites I have looked at. We'll pull the motor next week and see what the issues are and more importantly, see what we do next to stop it.

Next race is December with POC at Willow, so I am hoping to have the car back together by then. Looking on the BMWCCA Website, it looks like the schedule for next year is shaping up with the big races already on the calendar. I would LOVE to get this car stable enough that we do a Mont Tremblant, Mosport, Watkins Glen run in 2008, but only time will tell.

the car looked remarkably nice.....EVOSPORT got it back together for many folks to gaze at....so many folks around, I barely could squeeze to take a picture.

Glad to finally see this thing in person...what a phenomenal build. Keep having fun...as I'm sure that you will.

Thank you for the up dates on every thing!!!

Few more pics I stole from someone.





http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/Picture582.jpg

http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/Picture584.jpg


http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/Picture771.jpg

http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/Picture772.jpg

Jon -

Why the change in car number from 51 to 73?

-Mike

sorry to see the front splitter problems (i know how that goes :) ), but congrats on the win and to evosport's nice job.

despite having a car that's as fast as any production car in the country, i'm impressed by your humility and self-depracating humor :) keep up the good work. i also appreciate the way you always give evosport credit :thumbup:

oh, does evosport offer rear diffusers for the E36?

Jon -

Why the change in car number from 51 to 73?

-Mike

All the evosport cars are numbered in the 70's (except for Lagoni's - but his is his wedding anniversary so it's not going to change!), so I changed mine over at the begining of this year.

sorry to see the front splitter problems (i know how that goes :) ), but congrats on the win and to evosport's nice job.

despite having a car that's as fast as any production car in the country, i'm impressed by your humility and self-depracating humor :) keep up the good work. i also appreciate the way you always give evosport credit :thumbup:

oh, does evosport offer rear diffusers for the E36?

Fact of the matter is that I couldn't do this with out Brad, Simon, Bob, Gary and Dale and all their great guys at evosport. I try to give them credit because this is as much a labor of love for them as it is for me.

Pride leads to the fall, so it goes. In fact, it's been proven to me over and over again, as soon as my confidence in my driving abilities starts to border on arrogance, the car reaches up and bites me in the a$$.

Evosport does offer rear diffusers for just about any car, but I doubt they are "off the shelf items" as I know all their racecar work is extremely custom. Best is to call Dale or Brad and talk with them about your application.

Nice run man. You gotta make an east coast swing and play with us. You should really think about Calabogie while your out here, incredible track. If you guys need places to store trailers or cars or whatever, let me know. Us east coast boys will make sure it works out for you!

I just read through this entire thread and I have to say the combination of the great driver, the awesome car, and the incredible crew makes this such a fun thread to read. I mean, all the work that is done to this car and the speed that it is done is just unbelievable.

Oh yeah, and I came up to the Thunderhill race. I was working with Henry Schmidt and his E36 M3. This thread kinda answers some of the questions of why your car didn't qualify and why it came out of no where and took the lead. Also, I guess the 567 hp explains why you were so fast, our car has only 485 :(

My only leftover question is why didn't either of the evosport cars race on sunday?

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3050.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3045-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3039-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3000.jpg

I just read through this entire thread and I have to say the combination of the great driver, the awesome car, and the incredible crew makes this such a fun thread to read. I mean, all the work that is done to this car and the speed that it is done is just unbelievable.

Oh yeah, and I came up to the Thunderhill race. I was working with Henry Schmidt and his E36 M3. This thread kinda answers some of the questions of why your car didn't qualify and why it came out of no where and took the lead. Also, I guess the 567 hp explains why you were so fast, our car has only 485 :(

My only leftover question is why didn't either of the evosport cars race on sunday?


Thanks for the kind words. It has been a fun development project for 2007. Most of it has been fun anyways!

I race the car with about 450 whp for longevity reasons. The motor has actually put out 670 whp on the dyno at a pretty high boost number, but that was with a bigger turbo and a power band that was literally on/off. We have downsized the turbo and eased the boost so it is very driveable at 450whp.

The only problem is that it gets heat soaked after about 30 minutes. We were very fine for 30 miutes on controlling temps, but the last 8 minutes of the race we spiked water temps and twisted the block. We have twisted the block before, so this is not the first time. We just need some more cooling capacity to keep the engine temps in check.

Lagoni didn't race on Sunday because they lost a turbo in the Saturday race. Like I said - development year!

Looking forward to a racing year in 2008.

I just read through this entire thread and I have to say the combination of the great driver, the awesome car, and the incredible crew makes this such a fun thread to read. I mean, all the work that is done to this car and the speed that it is done is just unbelievable.

Oh yeah, and I came up to the Thunderhill race. I was working with Henry Schmidt and his E36 M3. This thread kinda answers some of the questions of why your car didn't qualify and why it came out of no where and took the lead. Also, I guess the 567 hp explains why you were so fast, our car has only 485 :(

My only leftover question is why didn't either of the evosport cars race on sunday?

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3050.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3045-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3039-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x115/mkodama/DSC_3000.jpg
Is this the same car that you posted about in the other thread? An NA E36 M3 CSL? :confused

Jon, what do you use for cooling now? What are the plans to improve it?

Jon, what do you use for cooling now? What are the plans to improve it?

I use a C&R double pass radiator and a big oil cooler. But everyone thinks of that!

It's really all the little things that evosport has done/is doing that makes a big difference. Everything from controlling intake air temps so coatings to shielding to covering heat sources. Then also evosport has some proprietary knowledge in head cooling and exhaust port cooling that really should help contribute to reduced temps.

It's really 100 small things that make a difference.

Is this the same car that you posted about in the other thread? An NA E36 M3 CSL? :confused

Yep, 485 hp 3.2 liters. But I think the rev limiter is lowered to save on engine maintenance, so maybe not all of that is being used. Nonetheless, the guy who preps the car says it can run circles around GT3 cup cars.

Yep, 485 hp 3.2 liters.

If it is naturally aspirated, thats an AMAZINGLY healthy motor. I know it is a Euro S50B32, but I really didn't know they went that much HP. Is it punched to 3.4 liters?

Yep, 485 hp 3.2 liters. But I think the rev limiter is lowered to save on engine maintenance, so maybe not all of that is being used. Nonetheless, the guy who preps the car says it can run circles around GT3 cup cars.
I'm fairly certain that an E36 M3 CSL was never made.

I'm fairly certain that an E36 M3 CSL was never made.

It was - or at leas the concept was executed in the 1995 M3 Lightweight. They came stripped without radio or AC or sunroof. Although they did have power windows and locks.

The car in question though (while it may have been a LTW - I am not sure), is more appropriately described as Billy Auberlen championship winning car built by PTG. I don't remember the year. It was owned by Gil Caravantes out here in California, then sold to Henry Schmidt in Cali also. It's a beautiful car and an amazing example of workmanship.

OK, cool. I'm glad to see that you know about the car in question. mkodama posted in another thread earlier in the day about an NA 485HP 3.2 liter, so I'm curious to know more about the car.

Dunno about the 485HP figure, but the car is "listed" as a 1998 when signed up for CR's. You can see the old 1998 PTG hero cards here (it's actually the first "1999" card - check the image link):
http://www.ptgracing.com/photos/herocards.htm

[Edit: direct link to back of card: http://www.ptgracing.com/images/herocards/1998_back.gif ]

FWIW. That's just what I found by JFGI, no guaranty expressed or implied :)

Jim - watched that car race professionally, been on track with it in Club Races

OK, cool. I'm glad to see that you know about the car in question. mkodama posted in another thread earlier in the day about an NA 485HP 3.2 liter, so I'm curious to know more about the car.

My car runs 450 whp in race trim and I was able to move from last on the grid to first over a 35 minute race. As most of you all in the force induction forum have tought me, while I like whp number, I let my car speak on the racetrack by what it can do. Just think of my road course racing as 30 minutes straight of running the 1/4 mile with turns thrown in for fun!! :)