This thread is to identify ways to minimize the cost of ANY engine swap into a BMW. In no particular order:

1. Buying parts car(s) and selling or trading off parts to defray costs.
Potential savings: $100s to $1000s.
Trade-offs: Up front costs, storage, removal of parts, shipping parts, general hassle.

2. Use the closest engine variant to yours. IE stick with a BMW I6 vs. GM LSx. The labor involved in replacing one I6 with another I6 may be significantly lower than custom fabricating engine mounts and subframe re-enforcements for an LSx swap.
Potential savings: $0 to $1000s.
Trade-offs: M engines are EXPENSIVE, and don't respond to cheap aftermarket upgrades like an LSx.

3. Treat an engine purchase like a car purchase. Test, test, test. Make sure the engine still has enough life in it to be worth the investment. (See post #4 by rao below.)
Potential savings: $1000s
Tradeoffs: Cost of a PPI on an engine you don't buy.

4. Do the work yourself. (Obvious, I know, but bears repeating here.) If you can't, at least be hands on and farm out the work to competent, honest individuals or shops. This will save you money and headaches. If you really want to save, learn to do some assembly yourself once someone has built/provided a component.
Potential savings: $1000s to $10,000s
Tradeoffs: Time to complete project due to your schedule and learning curve.



Original Post:
The question of the cost of an engine swap has already come up A LOT. In the spirit of "more info is better", I'd like to gather two types of info here. How much people have paid for various swaps, and how anyone can minimize their cost in a swap.

If people don't mind disclosing how much they paid for a swap (JoeZ has posted many details about his swap), please do so here.

But also, please post the ideas you used to minimize the cost in your particular swap. Different people have different skills and connections, and labor rates vary by region. It is very unlikely that any 2 swaps will be done at the same cost to the owner, no matter how similar they are.

Here's my idea: buy an entire donor car (say, a wrecked F-body if looking for an LSx) so you have more parts to sell after your swap. This lowers the overall cost of the swap, but comes with a few requirements: 1. More money up front. 2. The ability/willingness to cheaply remove, store, and sell the parts. You may be able to trade the car parts for part of the labor. Mechanics seem to be drawn to F-bodies like moths to fire. (Gross over-generalization, I know, please put down the flamethrowers.)

It might be cheaper for you to find and install a 535i engine into your car because the wiring would be simallar and be easier to put in.

It might be cheaper for you to find and install a 535i engine into your car because the wiring would be simallar and be easier to put in.

Good point, in many cases there are readily available engines from BMW that offer more HP, but would be less labor-intensive to swap into a specific car.

I'm looking for general information here that will stop the flood of posts that go something like "How much to do this to my car?"

I'm glad the interest is there, but I'd like to have a single resource that people can go to for tips on generally minimizing the costs of ANY engine swap.

Thanks.

I think this is a great idea, but it is impossible to come up with anyting other then some very general statements. These type of engine swaps are a lot different then swapping in a motor that was available for the particular car in either tihs market or another market.

I bought a complete Ls1/T-56 drivetrain for $3,600 but then I ended up buying a new shortblock and new heads and having the transmission rebuilt.

I will have to spend several thousand dollars to get the suspension and brakes up to snuff as well - is that part of the swap costs?

I think this is a great idea, but it is impossible to come up with anyting other then some very general statements. These type of engine swaps are a lot different then swapping in a motor that was available for the particular car in either tihs market or another market.

Thanks. I realize this will just be general stuff. It's almost one of those situations where "If you have to ask, you can't afford it", but I think there are many ways to cut down on the cost and if we share experiences, it gets us all that much closer to where we want to be with our cars.

I bought a complete Ls1/T-56 drivetrain for $3,600 but then I ended up buying a new shortblock and new heads and having the transmission rebuilt.

Why did you have to buy a shortblock? Was the original engine bad? Were you able to sell the original engine? Did you end up with more HP due to the parts you ended up using?

I will have to spend several thousand dollars to get the suspension and brakes up to snuff as well - is that part of the swap costs?

Brakes and suspension should be a consideration in any massive upgrade in HP/TQ. Going fast isn't very fun if you can't turn or stop well. But I'm surprised that you think an M3 setup isn't capable of handling the V8. BMW typically over-engineers the brakes and suspension on these cars, especially the Ms.

I guess more details are needed:
How much HP/TQ are you getting from your engine?
Are you building a track car?
Are you upgrading or replacing worn parts? If you'd have to replace them anyway, and the aftermarket pieces happen to perform better at the same or better price than OEM, I wouldn't count as part of the engine swap. If you are upgrading something to handle more power (like subframe reinforcements), I would count it.

I'll try to answer your questions

Thanks. I realize this will just be general stuff. It's almost one of those situations where "If you have to ask, you can't afford it", but I think there are many ways to cut down on the cost and if we share experiences, it gets us all that much closer to where we want to be with our cars.

Why did you have to buy a shortblock? Was the original engine bad? Were you able to sell the original engine? Did you end up with more HP due to the parts you ended up using?

When I tore down the motor I realized that while the short block was in pretty good shape (the cam bearings were shot) I wanted to go with something better and more powerful. Plus it is all forged, blueprinted and balanced. :) I did sell the original short block.

as to how much more power that is a tough question. With a head and cam sawp I would have had around 400 crank hp. With the stroker LS2 block and the heads and cam I chose I will have more like 600 crank hp, so I guess the answer is yes :alright

Brakes and suspension should be a consideration in any massive upgrade in HP/TQ. Going fast isn't very fun if you can't turn or stop well. But I'm surprised that you think an M3 setup isn't capable of handling the V8. BMW typically over-engineers the brakes and suspension on these cars, especially the Ms.

I guess more details are needed:
How much HP/TQ are you getting from your engine?
Are you building a track car?
Are you upgrading or replacing worn parts? If you'd have to replace them anyway, and the aftermarket pieces happen to perform better at the same or better price than OEM, I wouldn't count as part of the engine swap. If you are upgrading something to handle more power (like subframe reinforcements), I would count it.

The car is 12 years old and hasn't been driven in at least 3 years so a lot of stuff is old and worn out. Figure 600hp /550 ft.lbs.

This is a street car - no track time at all.

I am mostly replacing things with stock parts. Bascially I am following the formula that anybody would use who is going through one of these cars. Even stock replacements add up fast - replacing the stock brakes is around $600 and that's qith rebuilding the calipers myself.

My goal is to do everything right and not have to tear the car apart once it is done. I have done this before (with different cars) and it is easier and cheaper to do it all up front.

My point really is that the engine swap is essetially all custom so it is hard to compare. Buying a new water pump, starter and alternator will be around $600 - is that part of the cost? I bought the car itself very cheap, but it needs a lot of parts so how do you count that?

There will be people who do this sort of swap for $1000 and some that spend $30k and never get it done; I hope to come out somewhere in the middle.

Besides I hope to NEVER add up the costs - it is just too scary :eek:

I'll try to answer your questions

When I tore down the motor I realized that while the short block was in pretty good shape (the cam bearings were shot) I wanted to go with something better and more powerful. Plus it is all forged, blueprinted and balanced. :) I did sell the original short block.

as to how much more power that is a tough question. With a head and cam sawp I would have had around 400 crank hp. With the stroker LS2 block and the heads and cam I chose I will have more like 600 crank hp, so I guess the answer is yes :alright

On your engine, I assume you used the intake, fuel rails, etc from the original LSx on your custom short block / heads setup, so I'd count the cost, less whatever you sold the short block for. (this is getting complicated!) It sounds like you did quite a bit of the work yourself, which is the BEST way to minimize costs.

You spent more, but got a LOT more power!

The car is 12 years old and hasn't been driven in at least 3 years so a lot of stuff is old and worn out. Figure 600hp /550 ft.lbs.

This is a street car - no track time at all.

I am mostly replacing things with stock parts. Bascially I am following the formula that anybody would use who is going through one of these cars. Even stock replacements add up fast - replacing the stock brakes is around $600 and that's qith rebuilding the calipers myself.

My goal is to do everything right and not have to tear the car apart once it is done. I have done this before (with different cars) and it is easier and cheaper to do it all up front.

My point really is that the engine swap is essetially all custom so it is hard to compare. Buying a new water pump, starter and alternator will be around $600 - is that part of the cost? I bought the car itself very cheap, but it needs a lot of parts so how do you count that?

On the stock replacements, I'd assume that anyone with an M3 would replace these, and count these as maintenance costs. As for belt driven accessories, they have to be installed to make the car run with the new engine, so I'd include them in the conversion costs.

I can't believe you don't want to tear your car apart twice! :devillook

There will be people who do this sort of swap for $1000 and some that spend $30k and never get it done; I hope to come out somewhere in the middle.

That's the whole point of this thread. Everybody wants to know "how much" and it's impossible to answer due to all the variables involved. So a tip sheet on minimizing costs seemed the next best thing.

Besides I hope to NEVER add up the costs - it is just too scary :eek:

I hear ya there!!

Do you have an ETC (Estimated Time of Completion) on the project?

Well for ballpark costs if someone wanted to do one of these swaps I would say $15k plus the car (that assumes no work on the car not related directly to thwe swap). It could theoretically be done for as little as $6k if you fabricated everything yourself and found really great deals and cut some corners.

But for a fully functioning car that doesn't look like a science project, closer to $15k is a safe bet.

I expect it to be up and running some time this spring. I hadn't planned on replacing all of the bushings and dropping both front and rear subframes so that has pushed it back. I have it almost totally apart and pretty soon it will be time to put it back together :)

Experience tells me that it will take several months to chip away at all of the fine points, but I hope to have it driveable this spring.

I could drop the engine and transmission in tomorrow, but that still wouldn't make it run :)

You should start a thread to detail the progress! Sounds like a fun project.

You should start a thread to detail the progress! Sounds like a fun project.


I did, sort of. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=672801

I asked for a moderator to move it to the new forum.

The car is 12 years old and hasn't been driven in at least 3 years so a lot of stuff is old and worn out. Figure 600hp /550 ft.lbs.

This is a street car - no track time at all.



Rob,

If your only running on the street your factory brakes(in good condition) will be more then up to the task of handling the power.

Paul

That's the problem, the brakes on my car appear to be well past their prime. :(

Well for ballpark costs if someone wanted to do one of these swaps I would say $15k plus the car (that assumes no work on the car not related directly to thwe swap). It could theoretically be done for as little as $6k if you fabricated everything yourself and found really great deals and cut some corners.


Most accurate post regarding conversion cost I've seen in a long time:clap:

I ended up spending a bit more for a couple reasons, the most obvious is that I have zero welding experience and paid to have headers and mounts made ($3k+), as well as the subframe reinforcement($2.5k). I also spent a bit more on a custom engine harness made to my specs rather than modifying a stock one.

Another reason my conversion cost a little more than others is because I replaced all the rear body panels with the wider ones that came on early 6cyl roadters as well as ///m roadsters (rockers, rear fenders + liners, and bumper cover). I got the panels for cheap but add paint and it gets a bit costly. Furthermore I went with some big @ss CCW's to fill up the space. 18x10.5" wheels are not cheap, and neither is the rubber that surrounds them.

Then there are all the small things such as my shifter being much further off from center than an e36. I bought a couple pieces from McLeod that ran me a little over $500, then modified them to get the shifter where I wanted it. I also did like Rao and performed some upgrades to the motor while it was out of the car (LS6 intake, LS6 pcv system, cam, springs, pushrods), not to mention a new clutch and flywheel.

These types of things often go overlooked when discussing cost of a conversion, and then there are the little things that sneak up on you. I realized after finishing the conversion that my transmission had the chronic 3rd gear troubles that many 1999/2000 cars had....send some $$$ to RPM Transmissions and that takes care of that ;)

So is the general consensus that the LS1 swap is the less expensive route than a Euro swap or S54, or is it simply for the fact of more power? I'm still trying to understand the whole LSx swap into a BMW thing... and I want to do an S50B32 swap (or S54... or S62 :devillook )

So is the general consensus that the LS1 swap is the less expensive route than a Euro swap or S54, or is it simply for the fact of more power? I'm still trying to understand the whole LSx swap into a BMW thing... and I want to do an S50B32 swap (or S54... or S62 :devillook )

I think that most people who do an LSx swap into a BMW look at it like this:

LSx has more power
LSx engines are usually cheaper than BMW Sxx engines or Mxx engines + Turbo/Supercharger
LSx engines respond better to cheaper bolt-on mods for even more power
The labor and fabrication of parts for any swap is similar

The only penalty for an LSx swap (as I see it) is the Noise, Vibration, and Harshness, which is one of the things that Car & Driver, Road & Track, et al. complain about in all American engines/cars.
I plan to use similar engine and trans mounts to stock BMW to minimize the NVH of an LSx.
AND fabricate some way to include a guibo behind the 6-sp manual transmission for the ultimate smooth shifting machine.

Edit: Having said all that, I wanna ride when you get an S62 in your car!

Having never driven an E36 (though I was a passenger in one once :) ) I still have to disagree with the NVH comment. Most people who do these swaps up the power of he motor and do suspension work. A stock LS1 is plenty civilized.

I think that most people who do an LSx swap into a BMW look at it like this:

LSx has more power...


Actually the diffrence in torque, and how early the torque hits you is the big difference.

I agree the LS1 is a civilized engine. That's why I have no qualms about putting one in a BMW.

But having driven an E39 540, I appreciate the lengths that BMW went to in order to absolutely minimize NVH on the overall driver/passenger experience. The biggest 2 parts of this were the engine/trans mounts and guibo.

Other than "It's not a BMW engine" the biggest complaint about this engine swap is that "It can't be the same" as a BMW engine. I take this to mean that they expect the NVH to be at least slightly worse. So I'll spend a little more time to try to come up with a solution.

Those guys at C&D and R&T are spoiled anyway. They complain about very minor stuff. But that's just because all the big companies are putting out products that are very similar, so they are limited in what they can compare/contrast.

"It's not a BMW engine"

That's the thing I can't get past... but that's me. And I was going to look into the whole S62 thing cause some dude from the Vortex bought a bunch of PTG parts and was going to sell them... then one day, *poof*, thread was gone. Think he only had 2 and was planning on turning one into a table :rolleyes

I've seen a picture of an S62 in an e30, so it will sure fit in the e36. Think it's just a matter of $$$$ Wonder what that would do to the f/r weight ratio.

That's the thing I can't get past... but that's me. And I was going to look into the whole S62 thing cause some dude from the Vortex bought a bunch of PTG parts and was going to sell them... then one day, *poof*, thread was gone. Think he only had 2 and was planning on turning one into a table :rolleyes

I've seen a picture of an S62 in an e30, so it will sure fit in the e36. Think it's just a matter of $$$$ Wonder what that would do to the f/r weight ratio.

Team FMS in OKC are putting together a turbo kit for several engines and seem to be pretty happy with their performance. A turbo + Mxx prepped by Kyle > stock Sxx of similar generation. Just something to think about.

Team FMS in OKC are putting together a turbo kit for several engines and seem to be pretty happy with their performance. A turbo + Mxx prepped by Kyle > stock Sxx of similar generation. Just something to think about.

NA all the way man. I'm not a fan of FI even though it's going to put down more power.

NA all the way man. I'm not a fan of FI even though it's going to put down more power.

Go with the S62 then. More torque than you'll ever need and HP to satisfy all but the Top 1% MOST jaded drivers. Especially in your M3!

Your diff should handle the power, but I'd upgrade to the 6-spd manual.

Go with the S62 then. More torque than you'll ever need and HP to satisfy all but the Top 1% MOST jaded drivers. Especially in your M3!

Your diff should handle the power, but I'd upgrade to the 6-spd manual.

That's a given... even if I never do a swap, I want to do a 6spd. I honestly think it depends on where I am with the car months from now, or where I am when I hit 150 - 175k. You know, like Danny was telling Matt, you hit those miles you want to think about pulling the engine apart and giving it a good overhaul....

There will be people who do this sort of swap for $1000 and some that spend $30k and never get it done;





Ha! I wonder if his RX7 ever got finished...

Mine? both of mine were finished and driven a long way before I sold them :)

Ok, by popular acclaim what we have spent so far -- and getting near the end:

4000.00 on LS1 & T56; Foster Auto Portland, OR; both with @55k miles
300.00 on a used Lincoln MIG welder (infinite variable voltage & wire feed)
80.00 Argon/CO2 bottle
325.00 HydroBoost& Mustang master cyl www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com/)
250.00 new reman steering rack www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com/)
120.00 new control arms eBay
70.00 E34/M60 engine mounts eBay
20.00 material from HomeDepot for engine mount brackets
140.00 new '84 Camaro radiator, heavy duty www.jagsthatrun.com (http://www.jagsthatrun.com/)
95.00 aft driveshaft flange to BMW diff flange www.jagsthatrun.com (http://www.jagsthatrun.com/)
95.00 GTO oil pan (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=699289&page=3#) eBay
60.00 GTO oil pan welding
30.00 GTO oil pan patch material www.misumiusa.com (http://www.misumiusa.com/)
50.00 to get patch bent by press-brake
90.00 '99 Corvette headers eBay ( A dead-end )
85.00 LS2 waterpump assy www.wegnerautomotive.com (http://www.wegnerautomotive.com/)
35.00 spacers for warterpump www.wegnerautomotive.com (http://www.wegnerautomotive.com/)
40.00 (2) sets of waterpump gaskets
54.00 , LS2 serpentine belt tensioner www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com/)
100.00 misc hardware
150.00 engine hoist
100.00 tranny jack
35.00 engine leveler
150.00 wire harness/fuse center to interface to PCM connectors C100, C101, C105
290.00 Sanderson headers
290.00 new Tokico springs & shocks (1" lower, rates 165# front, 265# rear)
200.00 new calipers, loaded with pads
35.00 fiberglas ducting materials
35.00 fuel line hose
20.00 EVAP canister from Fbody
120.00 New clutch disc
50.00 new clutch master cylinder
110.00 Edelbrock 55767 muffler
100.00 (2) 4" dia mini cats
100.00 (2) O2 sensors
20.00 Skip-shift eliminator
30.00 VATS module pulse generator; baker Electronix (in case G's doesn't work
265.00 driveshaft modification
who knows how much in misc stuff ;)


Approx total so far @7919

Some of the above does not apply if:

you have a welder, engine hoist, etc

you don't replace parts like rack, springs&shocks, calipers, control arms, etc

re: posts 15 & 18 above about Road&Track, Car and Driver etc: those are the "clean hands guys" who don't really know diddly about cars...they just drive brand-new, up-level versions and pass their "educated", full o' crap judgements. Read Hot Rod, Street Rodder etc for the real deal.

I purchased a '96 328i w/ a clean title from craigslists for $1,600 after it was hammered in the rear. Sold the front end body parts for $400, front wheels for $200, then traded the all black leather interior for a complete big bumper e30 in excellant condition other than a cracked block.

...so I currently have an M52 w/ transmission and a chassis for $1k plus a few more items to part out from the 328i. Will be purchasing a complete 5-lug conversion soon for $800 ('97 M3 front subframe w/ brakes & complete 318ti rear) and already have a 2.79 LSD for X amount of money from a local junkyard. (too low to say how much $$$).

Why a 2.79 diff you ask? ...because a GT30R will be going on it and Megasquirted. Unfortantly the turbo parts and upgraded suspension "stuff" (springs & shocks/coil-overs, sways, etc.) will make the cost of the project sky rocket rather quickly. :(

Found both oem metal M3 rear flares, one front, and an original rear bumper for a great price ($100 each piece) and just bought an M3 sideskirt off ebay for $120 shipped. Currently looking for an EVO II front bumper & lip, a fender, and one more sideskirt so the search for all the body parts will be complete minus the e30 M3 rear window frame that retails for $655 from realoem.com. :eek: I really want it but just don't know if I can justify the cost! The Kilander brothers 1,000hp beast looks great flared with the stock e30 [non-M3] window frame though: http://images.turbomagazine.com/features/0610turp_02z+1988_bmw_e30+left_rear_view.jpg

I found a set of "Style 19" 540i 6-speed wheels for $300 (probably screwed myself saying this bc i haven't bought them yet!) and hoping to swap out the centers from some curb damaged "Style 5's". Even found a company that does custom widening of aluminum wheels and could use a section from the damaged wheels to do it with creating uber wide staggered 5's for just a fraction of the cost! Hrmm...10+" wide style 5's in the rear, polished lip, nogaro center, then wrapped in 275/40-17's?!! Ironically 275/40-17 is the same size as several Cup cars so there's always good deals around on take-off slicks! Question is can I make them fit? :devillook

3. Treat an engine purchase like a car purchase. Test, test, test. Make sure the engine still has enough life in it to be worth the investment. (See post #4 by rao below.)
Potential savings: $1000s

I don't think that this point gets emphasized enough on here. I bought my motor/tranny from a friend that I trust and still ended up with some issues. I knew the history of the car my motor/trans came out of, which a lot of you won't since you'll buy via the internet.

Well guess what happened, my tranny had the notorious 'popping out of 3rd gear' issue, but my buddy never really noticed it due to the type of driving his car saw along with the fact that the car was rarely driven. Although after some testing once my car was put together, I knew that there was no way I wanted to be braking late into a corner downshift to 3rd, dive into the turn and have her pop out of gear somewhere before I exit.

I ended up going with RPM Transmissions and buying one of their built units that was going better serve the needs of my car and how it would be used. This cost me nearly $2k and several hours on my back.

Mine? both of mine were finished and driven a long way before I sold them :)

No man, I meant jimblab's.

Anyway, threads like this are invaluable to the conversion community. Tell us how much you've spent, and we will take that number minus 4 or 5 grand and think that's how much it will cost, then spend a few years screwing with it and sell off the whole project on ebay when our wives finally threaten our lives.

Then I'll finally be able to afford one. Thanks fellas! :buttrock

So as I've posted in another thread, I'm planning on rebuilding my '92 325IS motor to specs are in the area of the M3 motor of that year or around there. I'm planning to put it in my '94 325IS probably next winter. I'll be doing crazy amounts of homework getting into this because I don't know what I'm doing yet lol. I'm only planning on spending around $2000 max. To get around 250hp or around there.... is this feasible? Thanks.