RRT is on top of their game again, can't wait to have it all done! Hopefully front half will go in later this year. I'll update this thread as they complete the work. Thanks Barry, James and team!

http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/128793492-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/128793757-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/128794079-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/128794634-M.jpg

Nice, very nice!

is that POR15 you put in the interior? did you just brush it on? any surface prep other than cleaning?

cage looks nice so far

is that POR15 you put in the interior? did you just brush it on? any surface prep other than cleaning?

cage looks nice so far

No, but I think it was either too cold or too dry, so there are some bubbles I need to fix.

sweet, but it is only half a racecar :(

sweet, but it is only half a racecar :(

:lol But perfect for someone w/ half the skills. <ZING!>:eyecrazy

Looks very nice!

Question-- where are the shoulder harnesses going to mount? I don't see a harness bar?

:lol But perfect for someone w/ half the skills. <ZING!>:eyecrazy

:mad :mad :mad I am holding your shocks hostage!

Looks very nice!

Question-- where are the shoulder harnesses going to mount? I don't see a harness bar?

Work in progress :) There will be one with the harness guides welded on

I see. Please post more pics when it's installed!

Question-- where are the shoulder harnesses going to mount? I don't see a harness bar?

Generally you wait to get an idea of the height and angle that the seat will be mounted in the car before locating the harness bar.

Generally you wait to get an idea of the height and angle that the seat will be mounted in the car before locating the harness bar.

OK, thanks.

Give me a few minutes and I'll find something I don't like about the design...it's tradition in this forum you know. :)

Give me a few minutes and I'll find something I don't like about the design...it's tradition in this forum you know. :)

Yes, this forum is quite the critical place but also quite closely knit. That said, I just got off the phone with your father so watch your pie hole lil' Doby! :D

Looks good. IP in 2008??

Yes, this forum is quite the critical place but also quite closely knit. That said, I just got off the phone with your father so watch your pie hole lil' Doby! :D

Isn't that whole apple and tree thing apparent?

Isn't that whole apple and tree thing apparent?

Frightningly so...

What a pile... :stickoutt

I want to see pics of the other cage projects going on :)

Got any E30 Mod-level cage pics?

Mike

Sold our last J-Prep E30 M3 recently, but we may have some pics around. Looks basically the same as Kuper's rear E36, and had door X-braces and extra gusset tubes at the top corners of the windshield area, A-pillar bars, and roof bar. Full Mod-level E36 can be seen at http://www.bryanwatts.com/gallery and E30 build would be similar depending on budget, racing series, and application.

Surprised it doesn't go back to the shock towers. Also, just a heads up, check out NASA's new specs for cages. X-braces are not legal, NASCAR door bars only. Also, right side head restraints mandatory. We have the Butler seat systems with the bolt on right side head restraint, and will be fitting all of our cars with the right side net as well. This is effective July '07.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

The next step after Watts cage would be to [semi] tube frame the front/rear. Basically it means not using the rear subframe and mounting the control arms and diff directly to the cage, creating a tube frame support structure.

Surprised it doesn't go back to the shock towers. Also, just a heads up, check out NASA's new specs for cages. X-braces are not legal, NASCAR door bars only. Also, right side head restraints mandatory. We have the Butler seat systems with the bolt on right side head restraint, and will be fitting all of our cars with the right side net as well. This is effective July '07.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

Surprised what doesn't go back to the shock tower, the half cage posted above? Imo, bulkhead is stronger than the shock tower in prepared class cage.

This is what I see the 2007 NASA CCR says:

"15.6.12 Door Bars / Side Impact Protection
At least one (1) door bar on driver side and one (1) on the passenger side must be used.
At least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the passenger side
must be installed in all vehicles that obtain a new logbook after January 1st, 2007.
All vehicles, regardless of date of manufacture or date of logbook issuance will be
required to have at least two (2) door bars on the driver side and one (1) door bar on the
passenger side starting January 1st, 2011.
Unless superseded by class rules, modifications to any non-chassis structure (such as
door panels, inner door sheet metal, windows, door internals, etc.) may be made to
accommodate any allowed door bar configuration. However, removal of material and /
or modifications is limited to 1) the least amount to accommodate the door bar(s), and 2)
can serve no other function. Holes in the door jam (B-pillar) may be permitted to
accommodate door bars; however the structure should not be “notched” so as to weaken
it."

...I see nothing about Nascar bars :) IN fact, thier "typical" roll cage illustration has an X brace ;) I guess they finally saw the light.



JMT/James, did you guys build this cage?

http://www.jmttrackcars.com/assets/images/JMTcageB.jpg

Surprised it doesn't go back to the shock towers. Also, just a heads up, check out NASA's new specs for cages. X-braces are not legal, NASCAR door bars only. Also, right side head restraints mandatory. We have the Butler seat systems with the bolt on right side head restraint, and will be fitting all of our cars with the right side net as well. This is effective July '07.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2


James,

Only a half cage for now...As far as the design, I am sure it's been discussed to death here. I felt comfortable with what RRT suggested and thats why I chose them. When the full cage gets completed, it will be similar to what Watts has on his car as far as the side protection goes - some version of X with a set of gussets.

Steve, what is that pic?! is that for real??
And that is a great half cage, and if you felt the urge to go back to the shock towers the option is there. I agree with Steve about the shock tower thing, but I went for both.

Its from JMT's website, not sure exactly what it is...

Yep, and as I stated, its great for a prepared style cage, where you cannot go to the bulkhead AND the shock towers, its either or. You have a Mod cage, so its different circumstances. I'm actually going to the shock towers, but tying into the bulkhead, similar to the motorsport chassis...but I also won't be using a rear subframe ;)

The rear shock towers are not a great place for the cage as far as overall rigidity is concerned, IMHO. Damper loads at the towers are in the tens and hundreds of pounds, while roll couple is in the hundreds to thousands of foot-pounds. This is the sole reason why Touring-car cages, monocoques, and others are rated for torque required for a certain amount of angular deflection.

We go to the bulkhead for one reason: comprehensive rear structural rigidity that ties into the rest of the cage structure to maximize overall torsional rigidity. Roll couple on these cars is significant, since the front and rear roll centers and CG are drastically different, thus twisting the chassis front to rear under cornering loads. How is the bulkhead a "comprehensive rear structure"? It is a 3-dimensional stamped sheetmetal entity, either solid or arched for folding seats, that is spot- and stitch-welded to the floor, sides, wheel wells, and rear window plane (a major shear plane) over a very large area of the rear of the chassis. If the bulkhead is removed, the rear chassis becomes quite limp in terms of torsional stiffness, which gives insight into how structural the original sheetmetal truly is.

Well said James.

The best design for maximum chassis rigidty would be obtained by triangulating all those loads, which would mean going to all the highest load points and reduce the angular deflection in the chassis and keep the suspension pickup points from moving.

Its from JMT's website, not sure exactly what it is...


I've seen a silver E30 M3 with such a cage, instructor car. I've actually wanted to meet him as I've been at several events he's been at but we must be busy at alternating times, never had a chance to chat in person only by email. I know he's an electrical guy (perhaps not mechanical, dunno) otherwise I don't know why anyone would desire that type of joint on that fwd down tube.

-Carlos.

RRT is on top of their game again, can't wait to have it all done! Hopefully front half will go in later this year. I'll update this thread as they complete the work. Thanks Barry, James and team!

Oh my god, what have you done? :(

Oh my god, what have you done? :(

The car has come a long way since you owned it. It's gone from the YBP Banana Boat to Parking-Lot-Pimp to now it's current state of confusion. Remeber when it looked like this?

That was our first cage, built by A&E Race Cars, a NASCAR shop, and is in my car. Our cages have developed dramatically since then, and I will be posting pics on a separate "build" section of the site soon, as we are in the middle of
4 ground up builds.

The reason I brought up the NASA specs is that I know a car that was inspected by a NASA official with one of A&E's cages, and he was told the X-Brace wouldn't "fly". The official did compliment the cage as being "over built". We always use the 3 door bar set-up, but if other santioning bodies, like the pros, are allowing X-braces, then I think NASA should too. But we all know how different tech inspectors are in their enforcement and interpretation, just like car builders :)

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

That was our first cage, built by A&E Race Cars, a NASCAR shop, and is in my car. Our cages have developed dramatically since then, and I will be posting pics on a separate "build" section of the site soon, as we are in the middle of
4 ground up builds.

The reason I brought up the NASA specs is that I know a car that was inspected by a NASA official with one of A&E's cages, and he was told the X-Brace wouldn't "fly". The official did compliment the cage as being "over built". We always use the 3 door bar set-up, but if other sanctioning bodies, like the pros, are allowing X-braces, then I think NASA should too. But we all know how different tech inspectors are in their enforcement and interpretation, just like car builders :)

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

As I posted, the rules for 2007 suggest an X brace. I guess Nasa realized they were wrong to assume the "nascar style" was "safer/stronger" and have now changed the rules and "typical cage" to include an Xbrace.

If that cage (or anything similar) was passed or considered "overly built" by a technical inspector, he should be yanked out of the position.

Highest forms of Gt/touring racing are in europe, they do substantially more testing than the majority of the cars in the US...and 99% use Xbrace.

Update

http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/130238163-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/130237904-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/130237670-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/130237427-M.jpg
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/130238405-M.jpg
Knee bolster supports gone
http://jkuper.smugmug.com/photos/130238830-M.jpg

sweet, but it is only half a racecar :(
Yeah, you need more stickerrzZZzz.

BTW....your stuff is done.

looks good man.

Yeah, you need more stickerrzZZzz.

BTW....your stuff is done.


Cool! I have to figure out a time to come up there.

Cool! I have to figure out a time to come up there.

Not next Friday, he will be busy ricing up my car :buttrock

Steve J. : I was at A&E the other day and took lots of pics on current cages being built, and they will be up on the JMT site soon. I will put them up against anyone's anywhere. For you to make a comment on a snap shot of a cage that was built years ago was in bad form.

I also still enjoy comments from people who are not in the race business and obviously have "learned" from the Internet, the mis-information highway.

I took over a Spec E-30 car that was built by another shop that has the lower X-bracing from the B-pillars going over the bottom seat area as is displayed in the photos in this thread. I had to replace the in-tank pump, but because of the bracing, a one hour job turned into a unnecessary adventure, requiring removal of the exhaust sytem, drive shaft, heat shields, draining the fuel out of the tanks, and ultimate removal of the fuel tank from the car. Imagine trying to do this at the track. Too many cars are being built without any consideration of having to work on them. I hope the lower X-bracing shown in the cage in this thread will allow for replacement of the fuel pumps or fuel tank sending units without going through what I did on the Spec E-30.


James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

I was only commenting on the cage picture previously posted, obviously I can't comment on something I have not seen...

Learned from the internet? Who are you referring to?

Post the pics, I'm very interested to see...pictures are worth a 1000 words :)

Does A&E have a website? Its not http://www.aerace.com/ is it?

I'm only looking out for the fellow clubracers safety, so if I see a picture like that I want to make the comment so others can see what to look out for. If something is not safe, its worth pointing it out, and I don't feel Its in "bad form."

I hope the lower X-bracing shown in the cage in this thread will allow for replacement of the fuel pumps or fuel tank sending units without going through what I did on the Spec E-30.


James,

I know for a fact that Eric Wong installed the dual fuel pump kit with the same lower X you see. He did, however, have to climb in through the trunk. :D

I'm surprised Wonger could not fit back there through the front. I think I managed to climb back there once to clean the window before it left the shop one weekend. Its a bit scary though haha all about being a contortionist :)

I'm surprised Wonger could not fit back there through the front. I think I managed to climb back there once to clean the window before it left the shop one weekend. Its a bit scary though haha all about being a contortionist :)

I think both seats were in place and even he's not that skinny

Oh he had the passenger seat in, that'd be a bit hard then :) lol

Not next Friday, he will be busy ricing up my car :buttrock

Hi Jesse,

I noticed the Meisterschaft Motor logo in your sig. Are you sponsored by them? What does it take? I've gotten a lot of stuff from them and have been extremely happy with it.

By any chance is your cage designed by them? I talked to Geoff a while ago and he mentioned that he had a really cool cage design. I was curious to see some pics of the cage.

I noticed the Meisterschaft Motor logo in your sig.

That is one BIG signature. :D

What ever happened with that E46 GTR Body kitted car they were working on?

http://www.meisterschaftmotor.com/images/12_16_05_2051.jpg

What ever happened with that E46 GTR Body kitted car they were working on?

I'm not sure, I'll have to ask him about that. He's built up so many cars that I've lost track.

You can see some smaller pics of the rest of the widebody at
http://www.meisterschaftmotor.com/services.html

Yea, pics are from a long time ago. I'm more concerned about whats under the widebody...is it more of a showcar now, or does it race? Not an M3 chassis.

Yea, pics are from a long time ago. I'm more concerned about whats under the widebody...is it more of a showcar now, or does it race? Not an M3 chassis.

If I remember correctly, an S54, Moton Motorsports, and other various goodies. I don't remember the details since he's built up so many, but this is not a show car. Meisterschaft Motor builds serious track cars. I guess we could always ask the guy with the big Meisterschaft Motor logo in his sig. :D

I'll probably talk/e-mail to Geoff in the next few days, so I'll try to remember to ask him about that car and see if he has any pictures. Last time I talked to him he was bragging about how his tow vechical was getting 15mpg. :stickoutt

can you two stay on topic here?