For Moton shocks, what tools have you guys used to fill the canisters?

Chris

Best bet would be to contact your Moton distributor/shop, so they can assist you with your specific setup.

You just have to watch out for some of the cheaper setups sold, as the shrader valve will lose pressure upon adjusting. In that respect the shrader valve has a slightly flawed design, however it just takes some experience and good equipment to have it work well.

You can pretty much find everything on the market by googling "shock inflation tool" and you'll see tons of products available. Genisis, Longacre, Intercomp, Argo, etc.

Instead of not answering your question and sending you on a google adventure, I figured I'd get two birds with one stone -- this is what I use for for my Bilstein race shocks on my chase truck and where you can order it:

http://kartek.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KOR&Product_Code=BLS-193000&Category_Code=tools

You might want to verify that Moton doesn't use some bizarre schrader valve size (doubt they would). It works like a charm and allows you to set exact nitrogen pressures.

For Moton shocks, what tools have you guys used to fill the canisters?

Chris

Instead of not answering your question and sending you on a google adventure, I figured I'd get two birds with one stone -- this is what I use for for my Bilstein race shocks on my chase truck and where you can order it:

http://kartek.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KOR&Product_Code=BLS-193000&Category_Code=tools

You might want to verify that Moton doesn't use some bizarre schrader valve size (doubt they would). It works like a charm and allows you to set exact nitrogen pressures.

lmfao. so true.

I had good sucess with the longacre

Instead of not answering your question and sending you on a google adventure, I figured I'd get two birds with one stone --

Thank you for:

A. Making the totally valid assumption that I know that Google is my friend

B. Giving me some real information that I can bounce off what I already know. I prefer this instead of writing a thread that identifies a tool and then asks for personal verification of the wisdom of my choice (more scientific method this way!!)
Thanks,
Chris

lmfao. so true.

I had good sucess with the longacre

Yes I was looking at the Longacre as well, the difference seems to be that with the Bilstien and Moton tools (which look the same), the captivated volume is smaller than the Longacre one which has a long hose. It seems as if the long hose type would be easier to see and use, but would be a little harder to get the pressure first time due to the pv=nRT component of the gas which is trapped in the hose behind the regulator. Ultimately the pressure adjustment would be the same since the pressure is the pressure, but my concern is that the Longacre might be harder to adjust, but easier to see and use for "aging" eyes.
Chris

Best bet would be to contact your Moton distributor/shop, so they can assist you with your specific setup.

You just have to watch out for some of the cheaper setups sold, as the shrader valve will lose pressure upon adjusting. In that respect the shrader valve has a slightly flawed design, however it just takes some experience and good equipment to have it work well.

You can pretty much find everything on the market by googling "shock inflation tool" and you'll see tons of products available. Genisis, Longacre, Intercomp, Argo, etc.

Thank you Steve that was very helpful. Post number 10,000 is not far away.

Chris

Haha, well maybe if you googled first I would not have to remind you about it ;)

If you teach a man to fish....

Which Motons do you have?

(I wonder if the Ohlins inflation method/design will be used by any other companies?)

For shrader valve equipped reservoirs, it really does not matter which of the ~4 available inflation tools you use, you just have to be careful when using it that you do not have excessive leaking. Also would highly suggest using one with a guage that is ~300max. If you get a 1500psi guage youe accuracy on the lower end will be compromised.

Since you are in NC, you might want to give REsuspension a call, or if you don't mind taking a little trip go to RRT, as they now have a full shock building/repair/revalving/testing setup and can you show you some really cool stuff.

http://resuspension.com/cart/files/t_15423.gif

Definitely not a fan of using one with a 3ft long hose...

http://www.powertank.com/ecom/images/product/187.358.600x400.SIG-550a-600.jpg

Yes I was looking at the Longacre as well, the difference seems to be that with the Bilstien and Moton tools (which look the same), the captivated volume is smaller than the Longacre one which has a long hose. It seems as if the long hose type would be easier to see and use, but would be a little harder to get the pressure first time due to the pv=nRT component of the gas which is trapped in the hose behind the regulator. Ultimately the pressure adjustment would be the same since the pressure is the pressure, but my concern is that the Longacre might be harder to adjust, but easier to see and use for "aging" eyes.
Chris

I didn't have any trouble adjusting once I calibrated my trigger finger. And yes, having the gauge in a comfortable position made it pretty easy to use. Getting the shrader valve threaded onto the gauge next to a hot muffler/header is hard enough sometimes! (I had non-remote AD's)

lmfao. so true.

I had good sucess with the longacre

A little OT. Did you use the one pictured on their site, model 50472, to do your ADs? I'm curious about the fronts where the schrader valve is up inside the strut housing. Seems like the large fitting on the end of the tube wouldn't work on the fronts.

Thanks - Jay

A little OT. Did you use the one pictured on their site, model 50472, to do your ADs? I'm curious about the fronts where the schrader valve is up inside the strut housing. Seems like the large fitting on the end of the tube wouldn't work on the fronts.

Thanks - Jay

Sigh...Jay really needs to send the AD's out with the shrader valve extensions.http://www.fmjmotorsports.com/link/PICT1192.JPG

Haha, well maybe if you googled first I would not have to remind you about it ;)

If you teach a man to fish....

Which Motons do you have?



Steve you didn't read the post title. It was not "How do I source parts?". It was asking for people who had EXPERIENCE in filling shocks and what tools have they used successfully.

I have orange Motons. They have some black on them too. They have red springs as well.

And BTW if you used Google. you would know that Moton USA in is Cumming, GA which is only 150 miles from where I live. Why would I go anywhere else?

Google is your friend.
Chris

LOL. We have a tool on our website that we use and has a minimal 2-3psi loss per attachment. Lex at Moton has a tool and thye say it is very good, but for some reason we have never used it. I think the first time I asked him they didn't have a tool so we found another solution?

And BTW if you used Google. you would know that Moton USA in is Cumming, GA which is only 150 miles from where I live. Why would I go anywhere else?



Does Moton have an off the shelf item to sell to you directly from thier GA location?

Does Moton have an off the shelf item to sell to you directly from thier GA location?

Si.

Chris

If you get a tool with virtually no hose, vs one with a long hose there is NO difference in setting the pressure properly. They are designed to preserve the internal setting of the shock's pressure, and the long hose is just a conviencence...and it can be huge depending whereyou've mounted your reservoirs.

However, one concrete difference is the following.

If you'd like to "CHECK" on the reservoirs pressure without necessarily hooking up to a nitrogen source each time, and re-filling it each time to a setting...you could probably "check" with one of the shorty devices, and at the same time not lose THAT much pressure and need to re-fill or top off.

With the hose filling up to "check" the pressure, there is a noticeable drop in pressure just involved in "checking" and you must refill or top off to get it back to where you want it.

I've measured this drop, its real, and you must know that "drop" in order to estimate if you've developed a leak....otherwise, every time you go back to check on it, there will be an appearance of loss of pressure, when in reality, you've not necessarily lost pressure, you've just filled the long hose up too, and that is the drop you're observing. That drop is simply greater with a long hose...

I choose the convience of the long hose, and just played with the device enough times to have notes on what drop to expect....

Simply fill it... top it off to "X" lbs...and take off your device... put it back on... measure the pressure, assume there was no instantaneous loss, measure the "new pressure" and know that you've lost that much just filling the hose on your measuring device......That way a week or two later, you know what to expect when you do your pre-race prep work.

Maybe this is intuition to you guys, but some newbbies might benefit.

Alex.

you can use the long hose tool but it's a little bit more involved. to get a somewhat accurate reading you basically have to pre-pressurise the hose before opening up the shock's canister. say if you usually run 200 psi you'd want to get the hose up to 200 psi prior to opening the valve. then you can get an idea of what actual pressure the canister had in it. if you don't do it - you'll get readings that are ~40-50 psi lower than expected because the gas going into the empty 3ft hose.

if all you care about is just filling it up (and not checking for pressure after the race or whatever) the long hose has no disadvantages it's just as accurate when you fill shocks. it looses accuracy when you check shock's current pressure.

you can use the long hose tool but it's a little bit more involved. to get a somewhat accurate reading you basically have to pre-pressurise the hose before opening up the shock's canister. say if you usually run 200 psi you'd want to get the hose up to 200 psi prior to opening the valve. then you can get an idea of what actual pressure the canister had in it. if you don't do it - you'll get readings that are ~40-50 psi lower than expected because the gas going into the empty 3ft hose.

if all you care about is just filling it up (and not checking for pressure after the race or whatever) the long hose has no disadvantages it's just as accurate when you fill shocks. it looses accuracy when you check shock's current pressure.

The drop experienced in opening the schrader valve w/ a long hose is, in my experience, sufficiently repeatable that pre-charging isn't necessary and only adds complexity.

^^ That doesn't make sense though.

Why not do what M3 said and use the pressure regulator on the bottle to equalize the pressure on both sides of the schrader, then just close the valve with 0 loss of pressure.

No need to get the hose on the filler to the right pressure prior to opening the schrader on the schock, just use the bottle to equalize things after opening it.

Sure, if you don't want to hook up the bottle, but you are going to get a loss regardless of the volume in the filler tool, so why not do it right? Then there is the problem with e36 AD struts with the valve buried in the housing.

that's true - either way will work, either find out what the drop is and take it into account or pre-charge the hose. Either way you won't get a very accurate measurement, but it'll give you an idea. I'd say check your shocks every weekend, or if you have important races/quali coming up before every race. And you might want to play with shock pressure if weather/conditions change...

Great info and kind of what I thought would be the trade off with short versus long hose. I completely understand the effect of the pressure difference between the canister and the hose causing gas to flow one way or the other, again the ol' PV=nRT. It should be something that I can easily play with and figure out if there is a leak or if the shock pressure has changed due to work being done on the gas. I also realize that this is tuning and pressure changes are going to be relative more than they are going to be absolute. The car behaving in a specifc manner will produce the action of "add 5 psi to the rear shocks", not "set the rear shocks to 150.5263212532552 PSI".


Thanks, Again,

Chris

Or really, add 25 psi to the rear shocks is about where most people will stop. Unless you are the kind of guy that stacks springs because 50# increments just isn't a fine enough adjustment...

Or really, add 25 psi to the rear shocks is about where most people will stop. Unless you are the kind of guy that stacks springs because 50# increments just isn't a fine enough adjustment...

My plan is actually to have YOU drive the car and tell me what to add, remember?? Part of the deal right??? Then we play the can I match you on Traqmate game.

Chris

Ahh, right... Well, it takes a while to get to the point that your best adjustment is 10psi of can pressure. Looking forward to it!

Moton has a fill tool, we have them instock. It is a very short tool with small diameter passages to minimize pressure loss to get very accurate readings.
-tony

Moton has a fill tool, we have them instock. It is a very short tool with small diameter passages to minimize pressure loss to get very accurate readings.
-tony

There's your answer CP :)

So what did you end up going with?

I went with the Longacre one:

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=815,363_2586&action=product

Seems to work fine. This is all about being consistent, and if the 2 foot hose causes the canister pressure to be lower then it really doesn't matter in that adjustments will be made relative to the current pressure.

The release valve is a little funky, but I can get into the tight places and connect the valve and see the pressure reading. It is a low volume static system, so I think that it will be fine.

First track day Saturday!!! Barber. :D

Chris

I went with the Longacre one:

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=815,363_2586&action=product

Seems to work fine. This is all about being consistent, and if the 2 foot hose causes the canister pressure to be lower then it really doesn't matter in that adjustments will be made relative to the current pressure.

The release valve is a little funky, but I can get into the tight places and connect the valve and see the pressure reading. It is a low volume static system, so I think that it will be fine.

First track day Saturday!!! Barber. :D

Chris


Thanks Chris...

Which car will you driving (E36 or E46 M)

Dumb question here: how often do you have to adjust pressures or add gas ? Thanks.

I'm using the Moton filler tool (off of www.bimmerworld.com (http://www.bimmerworld.com)) on my JRZs. I bought a small NO2 tank and regulator from a local gas supply company. I've checked the pressure each month and it has not changed over the course of three months.

Dumb question here: how often do you have to adjust pressures or add gas ? Thanks.


You can set it and forget it...however, as you start becoming more acquainted with your setup, you are going to want to make some changes or at least experiment...

I have not changed my settings since the initial setup. Tony at TC Design put the kit together for me with 180F and 200R canister pressure.

Dumb question here: how often do you have to adjust pressures or add gas ? Thanks.

Depends on the dampers. From my own experience and other posts around here, Advanced Designs should probably be checked before each weekend. For the short time we ran Motons, we never really saw any pressure loss, but we were experimenting with different pressures, so it's tough to say. With our current Ohlins, we haven't had any appreciable pressure loss over the course of two seasons.

I'm using the Moton filler tool (off of www.bimmerworld.com (http://www.bimmerworld.com)) on my JRZs. I bought a small NO2 tank and regulator from a local gas supply company. I've checked the pressure each month and it has not gone done any.


does the moton tool allow you to bleed?

does the moton tool allow you to bleed?

Yes

-Tony

i have a questions for a couple of chicago guys who have shared their experiances here...

where can I go locally to purchase an NO2 tank or perhaps a shop that can fill up my Moton canisters?

i have a questions for a couple of chicago guys who have shared their experiances here...

where can I go locally to purchase an NO2 tank or perhaps a shop that can fill up my Moton canisters?

When M4f1a was running his C-mod car last year, he got a tank from Western Industrical Supply Co on Western Avenue.

You'll also need to buy a tank regulator that runs a few hundred bucks.

-N

Thanks. Bryan, why did you go from Motons to Ohlins?

Thanks. Bryan, why did you go from Motons to Ohlins?

A few reasons:

1) We were never happy with the adjustment range of the Motons for the spring rates we wanted to run...and "revalves" aren't easy to come by on Motons. RRT put a lot of time into coming up with the geometry and spring rates we used on our car, and the valving and damper curve on the Motons just never really complimented it, whether by RRT's calculations or by my seat of the pants feel.

2) RRT wanted to get into the Ohlins game and offered us a chance to be one of their test mules.

3) I've learned that when it comes to dampers, one of the most important factors is support. Knowing that the guys at RRT can rebuild, revalve, and custom fabricate struts, mounts, etc specifically for our car is a big plus.

4) Based on some "independent" sources I've heard from, the quality of the Ohlins dampers and the amount of R&D that Ohlins puts into their products is unmatched.

5) To be different and continue pushing the limits. IMHO, we have arguably the most developed "club race" suspension/chassis in the US. The Motons were a limiting factor in that development.

The shape of the curve and the total forces can all be easily changed in a Moton by Moton USA or one of the rebuild and repair facilities (we are an autorized Moton rebuild and repair facility). Having said that RRT choose to focus on Ohlins and for Bryan and his family that made good sense to change shocks.

As for quality and R&D it depends how much of that is actually trickled down into the sportscar shock line for Ohlins. If you look at FIA, WTCC, and WC there sure seems to be a whole lot of Moton equiped cars, especially with the 4 way shocks.

In any case, both are top of the line shocks, find someone you are comforatable working with and choose the shock they recomend.

-tony:redspot

The shape of the curve and the total forces can all be easily changed in a Moton by Moton USA or one of the rebuild and repair facilities (we are an autorized Moton rebuild and repair facility). Having said that RRT choose to focus on Ohlins and for Bryan and his family that made good sense to change shocks.

It sounds like this has definitely changed since we were screwing around with Motons. Back when we had them, we couldn't get a straight answer out of anyone as to how we could get the valving changed. The best answer we could get was to send them to Holland. Meanwhile, there's a guy 10 minutes from my house who could revalve Ohlins and RRT was working on learning to valve themselves.

Since then, multiple Moton service facilities have popped up around the nation. I wouldn't even be surprised to see RRT servicing Moton in the future since they are so popular for BMW folks.

In any case, both are top of the line shocks, find someone you are comforatable working with and choose the shock they recomend.

That's the key.

Thanks for your responses. Very informative and helpful.

Thanks Chris...

Which car will you driving (E36 or E46 M)

I sold the E36. I will be driving the primer green E46 M3. Expect loud, ugly and fast. We are hopeful of the fast.

Chris

PS Guess I need a new sig!!!

Chris, any fully completed pictures?

It sounds like this has definitely changed since we were screwing around with Motons. Back when we had them, we couldn't get a straight answer out of anyone as to how we could get the valving changed. The best answer we could get was to send them to Holland. Meanwhile, there's a guy 10 minutes from my house who could revalve Ohlins and RRT was working on learning to valve themselves.

Since then, multiple Moton service facilities have popped up around the nation. I wouldn't even be surprised to see RRT servicing Moton in the future since they are so popular for BMW folks.



That's the key.

All I can say is that I have called Lex at Moton twice and he has sent me FREE parts both times. Today he is sending me replacement Scrader values because one on them won't seal properly. He also changed out a hose for me in days. Great support.

Chris

I wonder if Moton is going to ditch the shrader valve design anytime?

Bryan, times have definitely changed. I emailed moton about a ferrari application, and Lex emailed me back the same day with CAD drawing with dimensions I needed...I was impressed (although being impressed by that should not be a big deal, but its good eitherway). Every company should have service like this, and the ones that do are usually the ones that succeed far beyond the others in the industry.

Personally i'd still pick Ohlins/Sachs over motons any day, but i'm glad he had a quick response with good info :)

If you look at FIA, WTCC, and WC there sure seems to be a whole lot of Moton equiped cars, especially with the 4 way shocks.

-tony:redspot

The WC pits is dominated by Moton, regardless of the manufacturer. A "rep" is never far away..in fact everyone usually gets a visit at least once a day.

Maybe I'm biased because I've got them on my own car, but orange is cool. :buttrock

Regardless of the tool, the canister volume is so small that it usually takes a very "soft" bleeding technique not to overadjust. I know the market is pretty small, but a finer rate of bleed control would be cool amoungst the tools currently available.

i have a questions for a couple of chicago guys who have shared their experiances here...

where can I go locally to purchase an NO2 tank or perhaps a shop that can fill up my Moton canisters?Yellow pages search for "Weld" or "Welding" supply. Tractor or Farm supply also works. Chicago isn't that far from agricultural areas so something should be within an hour or so drive.

I wouldn't even be surprised to see RRT servicing Moton in the future since they are so popular for BMW folks.



I wouldn't be surprised either:devillook

The WC pits is dominated by Moton, regardless of the manufacturer. A "rep" is never far away..in fact everyone usually gets a visit at least once a day.

The folks in the paddock at a World Challenge race were the ones who couldn't tell me whether the dampers could even be revalved back a few years ago. They were the same reps who couldn't recommend valving changes for a specific spring setup...instead, the advice was "just run the same spring rates as everyone else and then we can tell you where to adjust your dampers to"...so much for development. :confused It sounds as if Moton has seriously stepped up their support since then!

They definitely seem to be dominant for the production cars series, but I don't see much moton in the higher GT classes like in ALMS and FIAGT, Lemans, etc. I think those are predominantly Dynamic/Sachs/Ohlins...but that also has to do a lot with the application, as Motons are really just for production style cars.