Woohoo! The new engine conversion sub-forum is here! Well let's kick this off with a brand new E36 LS1 swap by the Vorshlag Motorsports crew...

The old E36 LS1 thread (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8492488#post8492488) exceeded 1100 posts, and we've changed several things from our "Aplha" E36 LS1 swap. So now it's time to start an all new thread with information on our "Beta" E36 LS1 swap. This project is moving along, considering we're still primarily doing suspension related R&D (we sell suspension parts primarily for BMWs), but we have made progress in the past 3 weeks on the swap so here are the pics.

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Stock 1994 318is, 5-spd. Pulling the radiator support/bumper assembly makes numerous trial fittings easier.

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Just getting the engine & trans to our shop during a freak Texas ice storm was an experience

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In it goes

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Stock driver's side manifold = Not possible. Pass side = Not possible. (this is not news to us, just wanted to show why custom headers were necessary)

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Getting the complete/dressed LS1 engine and trans over the K-member was a tight fit (it helps to drop the K-member about 2"), but once that clears that it glides right in. Moving the engine to a slightly off center orientation makes all sorts of things fit better.

Centerline of car is marked "CL" on manifold, above. We're going for a .75" offset so that the brake booster clears the head. Note: Most cars have at least 3/4" offset to pass. side on symmetrical V engines anyways, so this is nothing unusual (we learned that one the hard way)

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/124673973-S.jpg

The Mason front strut brace fits over an LS1 with room to spare... that's good to know. :D

Details: This is a customer car and a chance for us to redevelop many key features from our first LS1 install 4 years ago... which was, at the time, the first E36 anyone had ever stuck an LS1 into. Those early mock-up pictures spawned a lot of other one-off LS1 BMW swaps and even a couple of kits (Nash and V3). It's not too difficult to imagine putting an LS1 into anything, though. Anyway, this customer wants a streetable track car and a lot of power; a naturally aspirated, all-aluminum, 7.0L LS1-based motor is being built that should exceed 650 hp on pump gas, built for 7500 rpm track use. These LS1 motors are getting fairly affordable and have always been very reliable.

Picture gallery : http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2343546/


Yes, we'll make this into a kit.
Yes, we know that BMW purists will turn their noses up at the thought of an American V8 in a BMW. (we're starting with tired E36 318's, not M3s!)
The LS1 engine weighs no more than the iron block in-line 6, and is 13" shorter so weight is more centrally located (cylinder 1 is right on the front wheel centerline) and lowers CG as well
Costs for the kit and various options will be available soon. We're gearing up for production soon after this beta car is running.
Wiring integration isn't all that bad...
The install should not require cutting, welding or hammering on the E36 chassis
This swap will not impact the factory braking system, suspension/handling, or steering. Some changes to the HVAC are necessary but it will have A/C.

This looks great! Can't wait for the kit to be out this might be something I would do.

Very exciting work. :buttrock

price of this kit will be in the area of?

damn terry....nice work!!!

Sign me up! Hope that this thread doesn't take four years.

So by offsetting the motor 3/4" to the passenger side do you plan to keep the original steering linkage as well as not modify the position of the brake booster?

:eatpop:

Badass. Good luck with the sawp

So by offsetting the motor 3/4" to the passenger side do you plan to keep the original steering linkage as well as not modify the position of the brake booster?
Yes, more or less... ;) More info soon. So far the brake booster (http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2343546#124061358) will not need to be moved or be modified. That is a critical design aspect this time around - not altering the feel or function or pedal location of the BMW brakes/ABS is crucial.

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/122666650-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/122666658-S.jpg

The stock steering linkage might "fit" but would make header clearance grotesque in some key areas. The OEM aluminum U-joints/rag joint are huge, as is the sprung steering shaft. We have a new BMW-specific broach tool being built to be able to offer a low-profile aftermarket steering shaft assembly that will be a true bolt-on, to remove nasty rag joint and make a slim-line steering assembly.

We're looking at this new steering assembly not only for this V8 swap but for trackers/racers looking for a more direct steering assembly; similar options are available for other cars out there. It also allows us to possibly offer the E30 folks an option for swapping in the E36 steering rack (which is SO much faster!).

Very exciting, will be subscribing.

how about the z3 steering assembly or are you keeping it stock?

Looking forward to reading more. You guys at Vorshlag are always doing something cool.

You should have John Mason build some headers for that! :buttrock

um..ya what did you guys do with the stock m42?

um..ya what did you guys do with the stock m42?

It's for sale: http://www.vorshlag.com/forsale.php

Subscribed!

Very excited to see all the progress and glad there is a conversion section now!! I will be purchasing this kit for my '95 M3 once it comes out. It's an automatic with 155K on it, so that's kinda like a 318. I will be more than happy to sell my engine/trans to any purists out there. It will be LS1/2/or 7 for me!! Keep up the great work Vorshlag...

This thread will be over 1100 posts soon if we don't get the basic information up here fast enough to curb the basic questions that the new people have...

I'm so happy there is finally an appropriate forum for this!

+1

If I lived in TX, I would offer to be a parts runner for Vorshlag Motorsports.

Terry do you have any intern positions :)

Wow! OK, trying to stay ahead of the questions.
how about the z3 steering assembly or are you keeping it stock?

Yes, a Z3 rack is on the list for this particular car, due to its faster steering ratio.

As Ralliart stated/linked (thanks!) the M42 is for sale. I can palletize and even offer to set-up freight shipping on this if necessary, but would prefer a local sale.

Price range for kit is between $1000-100,000. :D We haven't done a cost breakdown yet and cannot until all quotes are in and prototypes are built to verify kit components. We plan on offering this kit in "bare bones" form (motor mounts + trans cross-member + headers) to "complete bolt in" (bare-bones + several new hard lines and hoses + steering shaft + other assorted bits) all the way to "turn key installs" (through our existing dealer network). Air conditioning will be optional, as will full wiring harness conversions.

Project Update (from Vorshlag co-owner HancheyB):
The [complete] M3 [rear] subframe is now in. I didn't realize how *fairly* easy that process was. Key things to note:


M3 half shafts are 0.5" bigger in diameter than a 318 [1.00" vs 1.50" dia]
The CV joints go from "comical" [318] in size to "BIG BOY" [M3]
We looked at the mounting points for the calipers. We couldn't find any difference even tho [some people] say, "OH, M3 brakes won't mount to anything but a M3". I don't know. Like I said, it was just a quick visual inspection. They looked the same, but we didn't measure it.
The M3 diff is an inch longer and 1/2" wider.
The trailing arms look identical, but M3 ones have a cast "///M" in the side.
The subframe carrier looks the same, too, visually. Again [some people]say "they're so different". And I'm talking about suspension pickup [points] and stuff. The front mounting of the diff was different.

Motor has to come back out [tonight]. Terry and Jason couldn't get the [aftermarket Pro 5.0 T56] shifter in and the 13 year old insulation [which has pulled partially from the floorpan] was impeding them as well. Gotta pull that out. I didn't see what they were doing. I was busy assembling Bilsteins, stock springs and camber plates together. Another [suspension development] project we're working on.

This is great guys, keep at it. Going to keep my eye on this thread and an eye out for a rolling chassis. Cheers.

Very interesting! Id consider this down the road when my car dies. Cuz those domestic motors are TONS cheaper to mod up than our euros. Im definitely subscribing for progress and more info!

wow...subscribed also

You should have John Mason build some headers for that!
This was actually discussed between Vorshlag and Mason Engineering, and I'm sure he could have made some incredibly beautiful headers, and could have used a variety of of materials like carbon steel, stainless, titanium... his headers are always works of art.

Instead, we are working with a volume header manufacturer to bring us a production LS1 E36 header right off the bat. They are slated to make both full length (1.75" dia primaries) and shorty style prototype LS1 headers at the same time, both in 304 stainless steel, with a production jig built for each. This way they can build the headers with the proper bends and layout to work not only with an LS1 in the E36 chassis, but also to work with their CNC bender. This allows a quick transition from "prototype" to "production" for this, the most pricey portion of the kit. Not so pricey anymore. :)

We will, however, be sending other pieces that are a part of this swap along to Mr. Mason for production fabrication, and are carrying more of his parts every month. Some exciting new products are coming to Vorshlag from Mason, including coverage for some new models and all new parts never before offered for BMWs... :cool

cant wait to see it finished

Jeez Fair, if we knew that all we had to do was petition for a new forum for you to get this close to a kit, we would have petitioned years ago! :-P

This is all great news!!

Looks good Terry. Can't wait till it's my turn. =)

I've never really been a fan of this swap, due to the cost, when you could turbo a BMW for around the same if you DIY. (I'm a bit of a purist too. But taking a BMW with a blown motor or a tired 318 and doing this seems cool) If this kit is reasonably priced, and you just source your own LS1, this will be very cool. What kind of engine management are you using? Or did I just miss that in the thread already? And also, how much did the customers built LS1 cost that makes 650 horse? Looking forward to watching the progression.

hmm, with the 5.3 alu truck motors coming down in price, I am very tempted to pick one up.

Looks great!

Want one for my E30.

<3

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Scooter (the LS1 Beta car's owner) showed up midday in this beautiful 911 Turbo; M3 rear subframe assembly top, 318 below (m3 set-up now in the car)

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Hanchey and I yanked the engine for some much needed underhood cleaning. Here it's 65°F and sunny...

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After Hanchey helped mount the 15" wheels (they do clear the M3 rear brakes, but not the dust covers) and push it out, I began pressure washing underhood and underneath. Amazing how much grime accumulates on the K-member, steering rack, tunnel and floorpan! Now we can work on this car without getting covered in goo. :cool: The weather turned on us - it dropped to 35°F with heavy winds after a brief thunderstorm. So I was washing cars in freezing weather for the 2nd week in a row. GRR... BRR...

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Knocked off the grease and grime, degreased, more pressure washing, then scrubbed with soap and brushes underhood. Washed the exterior and OEM wheels, too. I then cleaned out the shop (haven't mopped since we moved in!) and moved the 318 (and an M3 and a 325) back inside for more detail work. Can now work under the car without getting filthy, too, since the floor is spotless again.

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At right, another LS1 car in the making: Vorshlag's 2nd white E36 (a high mileage 325 we're going to prepare for SCCA's XP class)

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Drilled spot welds out of several unnecessary brackets, then ground and sanded them smooth.

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Then comes the detailing... and now it sparkles! Installed the Vorshlag Competition Motor Mounts and we'll restab the LS1 tomorrow.

Doesn't look like 12 hours of work, but with all of the shop cleaning and car detailing, it gobbled up an entire 11am-11pm day.

It looks like you guys are doing a first-rate install! I'm excited to see this thing go... subscribed.

Man this is going to be badass!

Very nice sano install work. Shows the rest of us how it can and should be done. As a great philosopher once said " Pace Yourself ".

I hope they reinforce the rear end mounts and all that good stuff.....

You guys rock:redspot

Wow, great job so far!

Are you using the F-body oil pan for this? Did you have to notch it at all?

i have been researching turbo kits for a few months now, trying to figure out the best solution to my quest for more power, and you guys may have just found the solution. I i sell my stock motor and trans , it will buy me a ls1+trans+flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch. The only money i will be out is the price of your kit. to me that sounds amazing. not to mention the v8 sound and red corvette engine covers :buttrock. http://home.comcast.net/%7Ehotmaillaptop/ls1.jpg

Subscribed for kit pricing.

great news about the affordable headers

i hope its ready for summer fair =)

Looked into this conversion over a year ago before I started on the E30 but now it looks like a kit may be available soon?

Im in Scotland so our steering wheels are on the "wrong" side, will the custom headers clear the steering column on RHD car?
Cheers.

Yeah, can't wait for a price!

Would love to do this swap into my little 318 especially if I have direct bolt on parts to make swap easier, keep us posted!

I am super impressed with the engine bay cleaning and attention to detail you guys are showing. First rate shop.

Looks great, keep up the work.

Subscribed for kit pricing.

+1

this new forum is great, so is the swap. ;)

Does this conversion use a manual transmission?

What kind of price would you guys pay for a good LS1 with all ancillaries and transmission? I would reckon nobody in the UK would deal with these types of motors so I'd need to source one in the states and ship it over.

For UK based LS series engines, you can try .chevroletls1. or britishamericanengines co uk

I know there are a couple more...your best bet might be to get a Holden LS1/2 engine in from Australia, though.

You wouldn't be let down...I love my LS2; Parts are cheap, labor is easy, and the power produced is insane. A full turn key FI LS1 runs around $8K for about 400 hp, and a full on 700 hp blown LS2 runs around $20K.

expect to pay right at 4k for a good low mileage ls1 w/ tranny, engine harness, etc. ebay is a great place to shop or ls1tech dot com.

I paid $3k for an LS1/T56 combo that had just under 30k on the clock. This did not include computer, harness, belt driven accessories, or a bunch of sensors (throttle body sensors, map sensor, cam sensor, crank sensor, iat sensor, etc.). Do yourself a favor and buy a complete setup, it will save you time, headaches and $$.

american muscle is making its way into cars we drove for one reason.. not to drive american made cars

american muscle is making its way into cars we drove for one reason.. not to drive american made cars
:deadhorse:*troll alert*:deadhorse:

Yes it is. In true american muscle fashion I must add. I love it. How long before someone stuffs a blown 1st gen small block into a tubbed e36? Just kidding, I must admitt I do like the idea of the LS1 swap if done corrcetly. That is just my opinion. I mean let's be honest would you turn down the oppurtunity to drive the car this thread is about?

I mean let's be honest would you turn down the oppurtunity to drive the car this thread is about?

If you come to O'Fest this year, we might be able to test that question. At least ride in it. :) Heck, there might be three LS1 powered cars there. But that would be the "stretch" goal. <enter 4 year project jokes here> :)

I think y'all will be presently surprised with the direction of this project over the next few months. I'll leave it at that for now. Fair does a great job of filling up the threads. :eek:

If you come to O'Fest this year, we might be able to test that question. At least ride in it. :) Heck, there might be three LS1 powered cars there. But that would be the "stretch" goal. <enter 4 year project jokes here> :)

I think y'all will be presently surprised with the direction of this project over the next few months. I'll leave it at that for now. Fair does a great job of filling up the threads. :eek:

:eatpop:

If you come to O'Fest this year, we might be able to test that question. At least ride in it. :) Heck, there might be three LS1 powered cars there. But that would be the "stretch" goal. <enter 4 year project jokes here> :)

I think y'all will be presently surprised with the direction of this project over the next few months. I'll leave it at that for now. Fair does a great job of filling up the threads. :eek:

So whats the deal with O'fest your talkin about? When and Where?

http://www.bmwcca.org/Oktoberfest

Motorsport Ranch
Fort Worth, TX
September 30 - October 5, 2007

great ! its like the monster miatas with the ford v8's. keep on going :D

I paid $3k for an LS1/T56 combo that had just under 30k on the clock. This did not include computer, harness, belt driven accessories, or a bunch of sensors (throttle body sensors, map sensor, cam sensor, crank sensor, iat sensor, etc.). Do yourself a favor and buy a complete setup, it will save you time, headaches and $$.

If I can swing it, I'll try to buy the whole (wrecked probably) donor car and recover part of the cost by parting out the good stuff left over from both my car and the donor.

If I can swing it, I'll try to buy the whole (wrecked probably) donor car and recover part of the cost by parting out the good stuff left over from both my car and the donor.

I think that's a smart idea if you have the space and time. We bought a '00 LS1, motor, trans, ecu, sensors with 40k miles for $4k. Almost get a wrecked F body for that. Something we considered is getting an account at the local auction house that specializes in totalled vehicles. They actually don't require a business license at those auctions (FYI).

I read the whole of the old thread before crimbo and would love to do an LSx swap.

Dreaming for now but..................

How about a Mid/rear engined E30 touring(or M3) using a Porsche g/box, space framed rear end with some decent type of rear suspension set up like the E36 ?

Well thats the dreaming/crazy idea out of the way, a straight forward front engined E36/LSx makes a lot of sense, keep up the good work !

Any more info on the LS3 engine you mentioned, sounds interesting ?

This is an awesome idea! I was originally into American Iron and still own a '68 Firebird. This is something that I am very interested in. Subscribed!

Any more info on the LS3 engine you mentioned, sounds interesting ?

EDIT: I got some engine codes goofed up!

Some limited LS3 info: http://jalopnik.com/cars/gossip/over-the-back-fence-new-engine-for-the-2008-corvette-225625.php

What I meant to references was the 6.2L L92 aluminum block used in the Escalade. This has the 4.070" siamesed bores and larger valves. This is part of what allows for more displacement, as well as unshrouding of the valves (i.e. bigger valves can be used). With a 4.125" stroke it's an easy way to get to 420 cubic inches... but we went ahead and moved up to 427 cubic inches, for that nice round "7 Liter" displacement. :cool

FYI: our shipment of 17x9" squeeze-forged 5-spoke wheels are arriving day after tomorrow. These will sell out quickly at $259/each, with the next batch not expected for "several weeks" (probably at least 6 weeks). These are made for an E36 or E46 BMW. PM me for details... they won't likely last past next week. We're keeping some for our race car, and have pre-sold half of them.

Terry...Is your source for the motors coming from GM's or Chev's Reliablity Labs? Good motors that the company can't put in new cars becuase they used it for some test or something?

I know Ford used to do that when I worked in their reliablity lab many, many moons ago. For instance we might set up a motor mount test and use the real motor and flog many different kinds of motor mounts on a vibration test. When done they can't sell the motor in a car as new even though it was never started. So they often go out the back door cheap.

Terry...Is your source for the motors coming from GM's or Chev's Reliablity Labs? Good motors that the company can't put in new cars becuase they used it for some test or something?

I know Ford used to do that when I worked in their reliablity lab many, many moons ago. For instance we might set up a motor mount test and use the real motor and flog many different kinds of motor mounts on a vibration test. When done they can't sell the motor in a car as new even though it was never started. So they often go out the back door cheap.

Anybody got a contact like this at GM?

Group buy? (Not that I could do it right now ... )

FYI: our shipment of 17x9" squeeze-forged 5-spoke wheels are arriving day after tomorrow. These will sell out quickly at $259/each, with the next batch not expected for "several weeks" (probably at least 6 weeks). These are made for an E36 or E46 BMW. PM me for details... they won't likely last past next week. We're keeping some for our race car, and have pre-sold half of them.

Looking forward to pictures of the new wheels. :buttrock

Finally a cheap, lightweight, and forged 17x9! Who/where did you contract to make these guys?

the LS3... we went ahead and moved up to 427 cubic inches, for that nice round "7 Liter" displacement.

He already has a half dozen of these blocks in his shop (he gets the new LS stuff first) and has quoted our beta customer a 650hp pump gas friendly 11.25:1 compression 427" long-block at a hair under $8000, (including brand new LS3 block and heads). That's cheap for that power level!

Is this the engine that you were discussing a dry sump setup for, or is the dry sump idea scrapped?

Some limited LS3 info: http://jalopnik.com/cars/gossip/over-the-back-fence-new-engine-for-the-2008-corvette-225625.php Basically, the LS3 is the 2008 Corvette 6.2L base motor, with a rumored 450 hp expected to be the rating (or at least 425 hp), up from 400hp on the current 6.0L LS2.

According to my engine builder, who has a direct line with the LS1 developers at GM, the LS3's big improvement is a bump up to 4.070" diameter cylinder bores. This allows for more displacement the EASY way, as well as unshrouding of the valves (i.e. bigger valves can be used). With a 4.125" stroke it's an easy way to get to 420 cubic inches... but we went ahead and moved up to 427 cubic inches, for that nice round "7 Liter" displacement. :cool

He already has a half dozen of these blocks in his shop (he gets the new LS stuff first) and has quoted our beta customer a 650hp pump gas friendly 11.25:1 compression 427" long-block at a hair under $8000, (including brand new LS3 block and heads). That's cheap for that power level! PM me if you want to know more; he is building a bunch of these 427s right now.



Thanks for the info, such a bargin for the money !

Some limited LS3 info: http://jalopnik.com/cars/gossip/over-the-back-fence-new-engine-for-the-2008-corvette-225625.php Basically, the LS3 is the 2008 Corvette 6.2L base motor, with a rumored 450 hp expected to be the rating (or at least 425 hp), up from 400hp on the current 6.0L LS2.

According to my engine builder, who has a direct line with the LS1 developers at GM, the LS3's big improvement is a bump up to 4.070" diameter cylinder bores. This allows for more displacement the EASY way, as well as unshrouding of the valves (i.e. bigger valves can be used). With a 4.125" stroke it's an easy way to get to 420 cubic inches... but we went ahead and moved up to 427 cubic inches, for that nice round "7 Liter" displacement. :cool

He already has a half dozen of these blocks in his shop (he gets the new LS stuff first) and has quoted our beta customer a 650hp pump gas friendly 11.25:1 compression 427" long-block at a hair under $8000, (including brand new LS3 block and heads). That's cheap for that power level! PM me if you want to know more; he is building a bunch of these 427s right now.

Back to work... heading out to finish the block-side mounting plates. Burned up the steel saw this past weekend, which was a great excuse to go buy the biggest mofo chopsaw available. I love getting new power tools. :D

FYI: our shipment of 17x9" squeeze-forged 5-spoke wheels are arriving day after tomorrow. These will sell out quickly at $259/each, with the next batch not expected for "several weeks" (probably at least 6 weeks). These are made for an E36 or E46 BMW. PM me for details... they won't likely last past next week. We're keeping some for our race car, and have pre-sold half of them.

I am sooo interested in this I get a chubby just thinking about 650 hp N/A.:redspot I need to know about the tranny and final install costs,please.

Looking forward to pictures of the new wheels. :buttrock

Finally a cheap, lightweight, and forged 17x9! Who/where did you contract to make these guys?

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129229750-M.jpg

We have lots of the 17x9 wheels in stock (http://www.vorshlag.com/temp/falkens_04.jpg) now. :) More pictures here (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2463891#129229335) from last weekend's Vorshlag Test-N-Tune autocross where we put these wheels to the test, as well more pics on our D-Force product page (http://www.vorshlag.com/dforcewheels.php).

I'm out working on the LS1 motor mounts now. Several updates yet to post. Have the driveline angles optimized (trans and axle) with a much better shifter location after a little tweak.

Those wheels look great on the M!

On an LS1 note, have you tested to see if the factory BMW X-brace will still mount up under the LS1 oilpan? If not, that would be a good custom piece to offer as an option to the kit.

Looking forward to buying a kit in 2007!

Those wheels look great on the M!

On an LS1 note, have you tested to see if the factory BMW X-brace will still mount up under the LS1 oilpan? If not, that would be a good custom piece to offer as an option to the kit.

Looking forward to buying a kit in 2007!
I like the way you're thinking...

Yes, we need to test fit an X-brace under the LS1, but it likely will not fit (yet strut braces will clear the LS1). We had planned on offering this as an option, of course. :)

Any plans to make those wheels in super low (///M roady & coupe) offset :devillook

Those wheels look great on the M!

On an LS1 note, have you tested to see if the factory BMW X-brace will still mount up under the LS1 oilpan? If not, that would be a good custom piece to offer as an option to the kit.

Looking forward to buying a kit in 2007!

That is a good question. I cannot use my x-brace with the headers I'm using but I plan on having my local chassis fabricator make something for me

nice writeup

Those D-Force wheels are gorgeous ! Wonder if they will be available in the future in silver and machined/polished lip just like the black one.

Those D-Force wheels are gorgeous ! Wonder if they will be available in the future in silver and machined/polished lip just like the black one.
Probably, supposedly, eventually. :) Next shipment we are going to get some in the gunmetal gray, for sure.

We've been swamped with orders, which has been kept us going into the wee hours of the morning many nights, but did manage to get some work in on the LS1 project 3 nights in the past week. Latest pics start here (http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2343546/197/129944820#129947053).

We have optimized the driveline angles (where the rear diff flange and transmission flanges are equal-but-offsetting angles, for proper U-joint operation) and shifter ergonomics by raising the transmission in the tunnel significantly. This was helped by removing the insulation under the tunnel and trimming the shifter hole "ever so slightly". An adjustable offset/angle shifter (from McLeod) will put everything perfectly within arms reach. After seeing several LS1/T56 swaps in magazines and on some car shows, each of which required major tunnel surgery or complete tunnel removal & replacement, this BMW chassis really does swallow this drivetrain quite well. :)

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129947390-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129947432-S.jpg

After the drivetrain was in the final final location, we finished the LS1 block mounting plates, procured the right bolts (M10x1.5x30mm SHCS), then built the top plates for our Competition Motor Mounts (http://www.vorshlag.com/motormounts.php) where the lateral supports will land. A few nights ago we made the templates, and tonight we cut the lateral steel pieces and tacked them in place. So one side is fabbed (still needs a gusset) and the other is almost there.

I can say this - we need a plasma cutter. Cutting these curved shapes with a band saw is a whip! The production pieces will be water jet or laser cut (then welded in a jig), of course. Bolt-in motor mounts that exceed factory strength and quality is the goal. Oh yes. if we didn't post it yet, we will have both Nylon and Polyurethane inserts for these motor mounts - so you can dial-back engine vibration if you desire, or go for the instant throttle response of our racing mounts. :devillook

Enjoy:

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129947053-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129947310-S.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129944114-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129944313-S.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129945199-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129944420-S.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129944520-S.jpghttp://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/129944820-S.jpg

Bolt-in transmission crossmember/mount is next. Once that is finalized, we have the necessary diff-side flange parts that will now allow us to measure for the custom driveshaft and get that on order. Lots of brake fittings and hardline on the way from Goodridge for the ABS relocation. We'll tackle the fuel line & pump upgrade next (stock lines and pump will not support projected 650 hp).

Very exciting stuff fellas. Keep up the excellent work.

Fair - Just a suggestion from the gallery. The engineer in me squirms a bit looking at those mounts. They are great in the engine's torque direction, which is good, but look pretty weak in the front to rear direction (imagine the load from a quick stop as the engine tries to keep moving forward. I'd suggest an additional plate that ties the two curved pieces together, so that you end up with a channel. Much stronger. $.02, FWIW, YMMV, etc...

BTW - about a year ago you helped me decide on the 540 in a discussion on sccaforums. I ended up with one a few months ago. Thanks for the help on that one!

Fair - Just a suggestion from the gallery. The engineer in me squirms a bit looking at those mounts. They are great in the engine's torque direction, which is good, but look pretty weak in the front to rear direction (imagine the load from a quick stop as the engine tries to keep moving forward. I'd suggest an additional plate that ties the two curved pieces together, so that you end up with a channel. Much stronger. $.02, FWIW, YMMV, etc...

BTW - about a year ago you helped me decide on the 540 in a discussion on sccaforums. I ended up with one a few months ago. Thanks for the help on that one!

Yeah, "complete" is a relative word here. They will be gusseted and have something tieing them in the middle.

Yeah, "complete" is a relative word here. They will be gusseted and have something tieing them in the middle.

Understood. In looking closer at the pics, I was coming back to ammend my post. I like the tie plate on the bottom rather than the top (like I originally envisioned), so that the chassis bolt is easier to access.

Understood. In looking closer at the pics, I was coming back to ammend my post. I like the tie plate on the bottom rather than the top (like I originally envisioned), so that the chassis bolt is easier to access.
I think I mentioned that in my post last night, but yes, a gusset plate is going to tie the lateral supports together. I almost didn't post those pictures because that piece was missing, but it had been a while since an update. And for the reason you mention (socket clearance) the gusset will be on the bottom side, making it a U channel. This mostly follows the factory BMW mount structure design, except in steel.

...So one side is fabbed (still needs a gusset) and the other is almost there....


These are fairly crude mock-ups - the final mount design could be another material, the size of the various pieces and will be trimmed down a tick for production. These mock-ups show the general shape and will be used to make the production welding alignment fixture.

I'm glad to see that the geometry is going to be accomodated for with regard to equal offsets to allow the driveshaft u-joints to operate correctly. Will you be sticking to BMW's two-piece design? driveshaft link (http://www.driveshafts.com/pages/bmw_ujoint.html) Have you adressed how the driveshaft will be accomodated for future customers, as some at the diff may be 4-bolt, six-bolt, Evo diff, etc? (I'm hoping no one wants an automatic transmission.)

From what I can see without trying them, I like your engine mount design for the stock E36 engine. I snapped quite a few engine mounts as a kid with high horsepower muscle cars and look forward to seeing your revised engine mount design for the LS-# swap. (Since they mount an engine and not a motor I hate to call them motor mounts, but tomatoe, tomato...)

Thread Tools>Subscribe to this thread click click....

I'm glad to see that the geometry is going to be accommodated for with regard to equal offsets to allow the driveshaft u-joints to operate correctly. Will you be sticking to BMW's two-piece design? driveshaft link (http://www.driveshafts.com/pages/bmw_ujoint.html) Have you adressed how the driveshaft will be accommodated for future customers, as some at the diff may be 4-bolt, six-bolt, Evo diff, etc? (I'm hoping no one wants an automatic transmission.)
Dave,

We're going with a 1-piece design for the best weight, strength, packaging, ease of manufacture, and cost.

BMW's fascination with 2-piece driveshafts and "guiebos" is a bit extreme - they seem to put them in anything, no matter the wheelbase. Sure, in the long wheelbase 7 series it makes sense, but not in the compact 3 series chassis. It is vibration & resonance reduction taken to an extreme level, with a loss of strength in the bargain. How many of you have seen badly broken guiebos?? I have taken old ones out that were in scary bad shape. And center bearing replacement is another costly hassle.

When I used to do mechanical design on industrial engines/pumps as well as OTR diesel trucks we only chose 2-piece (or 3-piece) driveshafts when the angle or length required their use. If a center bearing is not needed for the span or angle (and in this case, it is not) it only makes sense to go with a 1-piece driveshaft. :)

The narrowness of the tunnel and especially at the fuel tank (which envelopes the driveshaft from above) will likely preclude the use of an aluminum driveshaft. These tend to have diameters of 3 to 3.5", which would not fit inside the chassis confines with any reasonable measure of clearance. A steel driveshaft can have the same or greater strength with a significantly smaller diameter. We might also look at a CF shaft as well.

As for various BMW diff housing flanges, yes, there are several that need to be supported: namely the 188mm housing 4 bolt (325/328 E36 and M3) and larger 6 bolt on the 210mm units (E46 M3, E39, etc). So far we have found a great set of BMW 4-bolt (188mm) flange adapters to use a strong and common Spicer 1310 U-joint at the rear. The front will be a T56 slip yoke drive with U-joint. Still looking for options to support the 210mm 6-bolt flange.

http://www.metricmechanic.com/pdfs/Differentials.pdf

Metric Mechanic (http://www.metricmechanic.com) has a great read explaining the different BMW differential housings. They also have great prices on built units - they're going to get our money when we order a 650hp capable (hopefully!) differential.

Looked into this conversion over a year ago before I started on the E30 but now it looks like a kit may be available soon?

Im in Scotland so our steering wheels are on the "wrong" side, will the custom headers clear the steering column on RHD car?
Cheers.

Can I get a yay or nay on the headers (manifolds)?:confused

Dave,

We're going with a 1-piece design for the best weight, strength, packaging, ease of manufacture, and cost.

BMW's fascination with 2-piece driveshafts and "guiebos" is a bit extreme ...

I agree on the 2-piece driveshaft, but I thought the guibo (sp?) was just to smooth out shifts. I guess this is more effective in an auto setup (the 5-speed on the e39 is amazing for a slushbox), but I can't see it hurting things much on a manual either.

Am I missing the point of a guibo?

thanks.

I for one would entertain an automatic. They can be built to take some crazy horsepower. No missed shifts means no money shots. Cheers.

I for one would entertain an automatic. They can be built to take some crazy horsepower. No missed shifts means no money shots. Cheers.

The t56 that comes on the LS1 does not have the money shifting problems that the bmw 5 speeds do. The internal rail in the t56 makes for some very precise shifting.

The t56 that comes on the LS1 does not have the money shifting problems that the bmw 5 speeds do. The internal rail in the t56 makes for some very precise shifting.

True, but people still mechanically over rev motors.

I for one would entertain an automatic. They can be built to take some crazy horsepower. No missed shifts means no money shots. Cheers.

+1 I've been saying that for a long time. Love those torque converters. B & M, Level Ten and there are more.

Can I get a yay or nay on the headers (manifolds)?:confused
The headers we're making will not work on a RHD E36, no. Sorry...

but I thought the guibo (sp?) was just to smooth out shifts.

thanks.
Meh, it just helps reduce vibration and has some harmonic dampening to it. (again a way to lower vibration)

Fair,
Will it be possiable to get the headers in a 1 7/8 primary for those of us w/ high hp/rpm goals?

wow absolutly aweosme. Its not exactly what everyone wants to do to there E36 to get power but it is still very nice. If you guys turn this in to kit form I can deffinatly see this becoming something like the LS1 in RX-7, and how widely it is respected. Would it be possible to put an LS7 motor in there with your current motor mounts and headers?

I'm just thinking out loud here, but how hard would it be to do this swap in an E46?
B

I'm just thinking out loud here, but how hard would it be to do this swap in an E46?
B

i don't think it'd be too hard to fit the engine, the hard part would be the wiring and getting all the electronics to work well together........

personally i'd love to do an LSx+FI+E31 8 series!!!!:buttrock


luv this project, hopefully Vorshlag or someone else will be able to offer a turn key conversion( send them the car and a check, and a few weeks later receive a fire breathing monster in return!!)......i know everyone is all about DIY these days, but i'd be happy to pay someone take care of all the headaches:D

Agreed. A Turn key installation would be awesome. Many people would do this.

I'm still curious about the possibility of a LS7 swap. THe LS7 makes 450whp and with headers, cams, tune they are making 550whp+. Thats a lot of power to be pumping out and be relatively reliable.

Also for the Differential most seem to be saying to go w/ the 3.91 geraing. What does that make your top speed if mated to the T-56?

I bet your gas milage would still be 20+ with the LS7 hopped up as well. What do you think?

Feb 18, 2007: We were slammed this weekend doing machine work (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/130609933-M.jpg) on a big run of camber plate parts (welding, drilling, boring, etc) but we did manage to get the pieces cut and tack welded for the the pass. side LS1 motor mount as well as parts of the trans cross member machined.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/130610698-S.jpghttp://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/130610729-S.jpg

Kept the same arched shape as the driver's side, for matching aesthetics more than anything. The arch helped on the driver's side to clear the steering shaft rag joint. More pics here (http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2343546#130610606). Owner came by for the shifter "fitting" and we test fit dual 3" pipes out back - which didn't fit well. Going to stick with a dual 3" merged mid-way down the chassis into single 4" pipe and muffler.

Now for some questions...

Agreed. A Turn key installation would be awesome. Many people would do this.
We have several of our existing dealers that are asking about doing these installations... we're going to work with these shops to do just that. :)

I'm still curious about the possibility of a LS7 swap. The LS7 makes 450whp and with headers, cams, tune they are making 550whp+. Thats a lot of power to be pumping out and be relatively reliable.
I think people are putting the "LS7" on a pedestal... Yes, the LS7 makes 505 hp in factory form, but its nothing special. Really is just a 7.0L version of the LS2 with a dry sump and a few other improvements. Its kind of hard not to make 500 hp on pump gas in the 5.7-6.0L LS1/LS2 with the addition of worked LSx heads, roller cam and good exhaust. The 427 is somewhat understressed making that 500hp number. 600-650hp in that displacement is attainable on 93 octane.

The problem with the genuine "LS7" is cost - its a $16K crate motor. Sixteen THOUSAND dollars. Not very efficient use of funds. The dry sump accumulator/separator is also going to be hard to fit in the engine bay. Our engine builder is making 600-650 hp LS1-based 7.0L strokers for half that price, including a brand new block and heads. The only advantage of the LS7 over a built 7.0L stroker is the factory dry sump system, and we're looking into that (http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2343546#127017608). A dry sump is not really needed until you get into some serious lapping abuse, though.

So let's quit name dropping "LS7" and just reference the LS1 based engines with the displacement you want... they're all the same size externally, but the LS7 is just a hell-of-a-lot more expensive to buy (new) than any LS1 ($2000+ in used form) or LS2 (new or used). I will bet that 99% of the folks that say "I'm want an LS7!" won't fork over the $16,000 for a new LS7 crate motor when they can get a new LS2 crate motor for $6000. There's not $10,000 of improvement from the 400hp LS2 to the 505hp LS7, and you damn sure can have a lot better 7.0L LS1/2/3 motor built for a whole lot less.

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/130623455-S.jpg http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/125193231-S.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/127017607-S.jpg http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/127017608-S.jpg

Also for the Differential most seem to be saying to go w/ the 3.91 gearing. What does that make your top speed if mated to the T-56?
The gearing you want all depends on your max engine rpm, TIRE DIAMETER, and the car's intended use (autocross? open track? drag racing? street driver? "top speed events"?). With the 0.50:1 ratio a T56's 6th gear, well, you'd be gearing limited with top speeds well over 220mph... but that's not the practical gear to use for speed runs (5th is) and it would take incredible amounts of horsepower to push to those speeds. We don't worry so much about top speed - that's for lunatics to explore. :) We care more about terminal speed for 2nd gear @ 7500 rpm (for autocross use) as well as 3rd and 4th (for open track use). For us, the 3.45, 3.46 or 3.91 all look appealing.

Fair,
Will it be possible to get the headers in a 1 7/8 primary for those of us w/ high hp/rpm goals?
This is something we'll talk to the header fabricator about, yes, because 1-7/8" would be ideal for the higher displacement and/or race only LS1 engines. Our first two installs could benefit from 1-7/8" full lengths, and we thought about making the prototype set in that primary size for use with all kits... and maybe sticking with 1-3/4" for the shorty header option only. We will consult with our engine builder and see what, if any, downsides there are with using 1-7/8" primaries on a near stock LS1.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but how hard would it be to do this swap in an E46?
Not very, considering the E46 is 2" wider than the E36 and shares much of the same layout. One challenge is the removable bulkheads surrounding the master cylinder on the driver's side, and other fluff on the pass side. Again, these are removable.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/120885325-S.jpghttp://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/120885515-S.jpg
http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/120885962-S.jpghttp://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/120885981-S.jpg

The E46 323's are getting CHEAP. And don't think we haven't been eyeing the E46 for a swap... it's next. :evil2

Good info Fair. What is the rev limit on the LS1/LS2 motors? How much would you be spending on an LS1 to make it get 550whp on 93 octane?

Also putting one of these motors in prolly makes it easy to smoke the tires in any gear? Could you guys detail the driving experience w/ a LS1 E36?

Good info Fair. What is the rev limit on the LS1/LS2 motors? How much would you be spending on an LS1 to make it get 550whp on 93 octane?
The 7500 rpm, 650 hp (550 whp) 427 we're having built for the beta car is going to be a tick over $8K. That's a complete longblock, with 100% all new parts (including L92 block and CNC'd heads), shaft rockers, H-beam rods, forged 11.25:1 pistons, etc. More details soon...

Also putting one of these motors in prolly makes it easy to smoke the tires in any gear? Could you guys detail the driving experience w/ a LS1 E36?
We should have some videos with stock LS1 power in an E36 within the next 8-10 weeks. The 427" motor goes in shortly after, as does the cage, flares, full repaint, etc. This beta car is going to be a street/lapping car.

Re-reading my post from 1:30 am last night I said that "the factory LS7 isn't anything special"... well, that's not fair. What's amazing about the LS7 is that 1) that it is even offered in thousands of cars (Z06 Corvette), and by GM no less and 2) that they can offer this with emissions legality and a 100K drivetrain warranty. That's pretty cool... but none of that really applies to using the crate LS7 for engine swaps. Again, this displacement/configuration/power can be matched or exceeded with aftermarket parts for significantly less.

The stock 6.0L LS2 is no slouch. After owning a C6 Corvette LS2/T56 for a year, the lowly 400hp engine was quite entertaining. The car would do 186 mph, and it could accelerate from 100-175 "briskly". With all of the traction controls turned off (or as off as they can be) the car could be a handful at low speeds, if you drove it like a jackass. This car made the jackass in me come out more than normal. :evil2

Any LS1 variant will be fun in an even lighter E36 package... :devillook

With aftermarket rod bolts (a easy swap) the LS1 can rev to 7,000. The real question is why? They make a lot of power through the rev and and for me I wouldn't want to take the rick of damaging the motor for very little in return.

The only disagreement that I have is with the quoted price of $16K, most crate engine shops handling GMPP stuff are quoting $12,500! Do a Google search and you will find them for that price or less. for $12,500 it would be hard to get all the performance stuff that is in the LS7 package built up from and indy.

Just my 0.02c

Ed

The 7500 rpm, 650 hp (550 whp) 427 we're having built for the beta car is going to be a tick over $8K. That's a complete longblock, with 100% all new parts (including LS3 block and CNC'd heads), shaft rockers, H-beam rods, forged 11.25:1 pistons, etc. More details soon...

Sounds good to me man. I know that the LS1's can be pushed to the same power level, but they dont sound the same as an LS7 because of the rev limit. But if you can make it go to 7500, then it will sound good, similar to what a cammed S52 sounds at 7k rpms if you know what I mean?

We should have some videos with stock LS1 power in an E36 within the next 8-10 weeks. The 427" motor goes in shortly after, as does the cage, flares, full repaint, etc. This beta car is going to be a street/lapping car.

Re-reading my post from 1:30 am last night I said that "the factory LS7 isn't anything special"... well, that's not fair. What's amazing about the LS7 is that 1) that it is even offered in thousands of cars (Z06 Corvette), and by GM no less and 2) that they can offer this with emissions legality and a 100K drivetrain warranty. That's pretty cool... but none of that really applies to using the crate LS7 for engine swaps. Again, this displacement/configuration/power can be matched or exceeded with aftermarket parts for significantly less.

The stock 6.0L LS2 is no slouch, tho, and next years 6.2L LS3 will up the ante for the base C6 Corvette to somewhere around 425 to 450 hp. After owning a C6 Corvette LS2/T56 for a year, the lowly 400hp engine was quite entertaining. The car would do 186 mph, and it could accelerate from 100-175 "briskly". With all of the traction controls turned off (or as off as they can be) the car could be a handful at low speeds, if you drove it like a jackass. This car made the jackass in me come out more than normal.

Any LS1 variant will be fun in an even lighter E36 package...

Wow should be good I cant wait for the videos. I know your going to be putting fender flares and all but most people putting this into there E36 will prolly be more of street only cars and for fun around town, I know thats what I will do with mine:redspot . HOw does the car act w/ just 255 or 265's out back? Is it to much to handle or is it more controlable?

Also how does the Shifter feel and look in the E36? Is it a normal position? Can you put the leather boot back on? Does it sit nicely?

Question about the gauges too. You can use the stock M3 cluster right? I was thinking w/ that 427 that has 7.5k redline you could put the Euro M3 cluster in that has the 170mph and 7.5k Redline, that would be very clean.

The only disagreement that I have is with the quoted price of $16K, most crate engine shops handling GMPP stuff are quoting $12,500! Do a Google search and you will find them for that price or less. for $12,500 it would be hard to get all the performance stuff that is in the LS7 package built up from and indy.

Just my 0.02c

Ed
Hmm... SDPC (usually the cheapest GM crate engine supplier) does show an "LS7 Crate Motor" for $12,999 (http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/265565/LS7-2006-Corvette-Crate-Engine-70L-427-Cubic-Inch.htm).

I am almost positive that is without the dry sump tank or pump, but I could be wrong. I sent them an e-mail asking for clarificaiton on "what does that include?" Wait, I remember now... at the PRI show in Orlando this past December I saw a "Wet sump LS7 Crate Motor" in the SPDC booth. A-ha, here it is...

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/117199538-M.jpg

Yep, I found the picture in one of the 15,000 pictures I have posted online. Needle in haystack! :alright

Notice the "wet sump" sign under "LS7"? That means - no dry sump oiling system. I suspect this is the way they are selling these crate motors for "so cheap" (ha!), for use as retrofits into C5 Corvettes, F-bodies and such. See more here (http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/2246470#117199538). Most people here are probably thinking "dry sump LS7", as it comes in the Z06 Corvette. I suspect the cost to complete a "LS7 Crate Motor" to include the dry sump oiling sustem could be in the low thousands of dollars.

Here's some other interesting LS7 parts I found:

LS7 intake from SDPC = $292 (http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/1980/products/269086/LS7-Intake-Manifold.htm)
LS7 heads from SDPC = 1299 each (http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/1979/products/271341/GM-Complete-LS7-CNC-Ported-Cylinder-Head.htm)
new LS2 block = $995
new LS7 block = $3195.00

I hear there is a "kit" to convert an LS7 to work with LS1 electronics. $500-ish. The LS2 and LS7 each have a completely different front timing cover assembly and the crank trigger is off of the back of the crank, unliek the LS1 which is off the front. Different number of teeth on the reluctor, and the LS1 has a cable operated throttle body, unlike the LS2/7 which use electronic throttle controls.

There's lots more out there, but some of the online crate motor and/or LS7 parts descriptions are pretty flimsy.

As for independants building 427s for $12K or less, yea, there's plenty out there doing this. Maybe not with a genuine LS7 block (again, big price bump there) or LS7 heads (ditto) but with the 6.2L L92 stuff (4.070" bore, similar LS7 ports). The LS7 has unique bore block, intake, heads - but not woirth an extra $5K in my book.

Oh well, if you have that kinda scratch laying around, go ahead and drop 13 large on the LS7. It comes with pretty "LS7" fuel rail covers! :D

Also how does the Shifter feel and look in the E36? Is it a normal position? Can you put the leather boot back on? Does it sit nicely?
Bad, no, no, and no.

We have a solution.. will post it soon. That reminds me, I need to order this shifter...

Question about the gauges too. You can use the stock M3 cluster right? I was thinking w/ that 427 that has 7.5k redline you could put the Euro M3 cluster in that has the 170mph and 7.5k Redline, that would be very clean.
Nothing so elaborate is needed. On the alpha car the stock 318's tach worked wonderfully with the LS1 tach signal. About the only thing we'll duplicate from that install.

Note: 318 and 325 both have a 0-7000 rpm tach. The E36 M3 has a 0-8000rpm tach. Just walked out into the shop and checked those 3 cars to verify. We'll likely swap an M3 gauge cluster into the 318 for this customer car... well, that or a DASH2. (not as expensive as you'd think!)

http://www.race-technology.com/upload/products/DASH2.jpg (http://www.race-technology.com/content.php?pcat=10&cat=1480)

Wow what a great write up. Thanks a lot guys, can't wait to see the finished product! :wave

Also how does the Shifter feel and look in the E36? Is it a normal position? Can you put the leather boot back on? Does it sit nicely?


In my car I had do to a little more work to get the shifter centered than you would have to do in an e36. Although once I got it centered, the stock shift boot was still too tight for 5th and Reverse shifts and would pop out.

These guys (bf.c supporting vendor (http://www.redlinegoods.com/shiftboot.htm)) offer custom shift boots in various colors, styles and lengths. I ordered one that was 1.8" longer than stock and it worked out very well. The leather is a bit thicker than stock so it will take some patience to get it all fitting properly, but the end result is very good.

Thanks for all the info guys. Keep it coming.

Also cant wait to see pics and things of what you are doing about the whole shifter thing.

We need some vids ASAP. Please need to see more even links to cars that arent yuors just for reference would e nice.

Awesome thread. While turbos are cool, having a peaky 600hp on the track is not a fun proposition, so an LS1 E36 is a much better option for a high powered track car

Excellent. Any chance you would be able to design a mounting system that will utilize the stock c5 manifolds? We California people can't do any of these swap if it is not BAR-able. Is it possible to get a custom steering rack (ie F-body's rack) that will allow the use of the stock parts? Lastly, have you thought about integrating E46's CAN system (traction, abs, etc) with the LS1 PCM?


The E46 323's are getting CHEAP. And don't think we haven't been eyeing the E46 for a swap... it's next. :evil2

I'm dreaming of a LS E38 swap. But I've been dreaming of a 6 speed E38 for a while

In my car I had do to a little more work to get the shifter centered than you would have to do in an e36. Although once I got it centered, the stock shift boot was still too tight for 5th and Reverse shifts and would pop out.

These guys (bf.c supporting vendor (http://www.redlinegoods.com/shiftboot.htm)) offer custom shift boots in various colors, styles and lengths. I ordered one that was 1.8" longer than stock and it worked out very well. The leather is a bit thicker than stock so it will take some patience to get it all fitting properly, but the end result is very good.

We found an adjustable shifter this week that can be built with offsets from 0.500" to 2.650" front to back or 1-3" side to side. Isn't on the market yet, but we're going to get our hands on one and see if it helps. Might still need the boot though.

I ran across a guy wanting to sell me a 850ci last weekend. Now THAT is a car begging for a new motor. I swear it was slower than the 318 before we pulled the motor. :) That's project #4 or 5.

OK, I flubbed an engine code in a few posts here... the 7.0L we're having built for our Beta car is based on the L92 block, not the LS3 block. I'm an idiot and wrote down some info wrong. :( The internet makes the world seem very small - this mis-post got back to my engine builder through a chain of people who read some posts here, who called me and straightened me out. :help

The siamesed bore L92 is the aluminum truck block used in the latest 6.2L Escalade and the Denali, I believe. Cheap to buy and works well up to 4.070" (comes stock at 4.060" bore, according to this (http://media.gm.com/us/cadillac/en/product_services/r_cars/07escalade/brands/07_%20Cadillac_Escalade_%20Specifications.htm)) bores (up from the LS1's 3.090" bores). This is still LS1 based.

http://us.tnpv.net/2005/GMC200509/GMC2005092041761_PV.jpg

The heads are very similar to LS7 heads, and they flow over 300 CFM stock on the intake side. I hear with porting they really wake up even more. Very affordable, uses huge 2.1X" intake valves. There may be a lack of a performance intake for these now, though, but someone has to be working on that. There are numerous LS1 heads that make big power, however.

This LS1Tech thread clears up my mis-information, I hope: :confused

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499059

Sorry guys... I am learning more about this engine now so I don't look (more) like an idiot and mispost about an engine we're buying! Jeez...

and yes, I have edited my 3 posts where I referenced the wrong motor! :D

We found an adjustable shifter this week that can be built with offsets from 0.500" to 2.650" front to back or 1-3" side to side. Isn't on the market yet, but we're going to get our hands on one and see if it helps. Might still need the boot though.



With my car, I had to move the shifter rearward about 6.5" to make it to the center of the hole, in the e36 the shifter actually comes up too far back.

I used McLeod's longest shift relocation kit (4.10"), then needed one of their "S" shaped shift levers which had several mounting options. I ended up re-drilling it to get the angle/distance I really needed, then had to cut/shave it down a bit in a few sections to clear the console pieces. If you need side to side offset, McLeod will also make pieces to spec as well.

A question for the company about the exhaust headers. Do you guys have any future ideas for a turbo option? Insane I know but hey a guy can fantasize about things other than sex, well maybe us old guys can.

A question for the company about the exhaust headers. Do you guys have any future ideas for a turbo option? Insane I know but hey a guy can fantasize about things other than sex, well maybe us old guys can.

I'd imagine they are plenty busy with the first example and the customer cars already lined up behind it.

A question for the company about the exhaust headers. Do you guys have any future ideas for a turbo option? Insane I know but hey a guy can fantasize about things other than sex, well maybe us old guys can.
Franka was right - we have too many people wanting the kit for a non-turbo LS1 to even think about turbocharged apps. Also, with the LS1 based engines you can make pretty stupid levels of power without boost or spray, and the E36 has some tire limitations that will limit traction (until you break out the Sawsall), so a turbo will just be good at making more tire smoke.

We do want to offer a selection of two E36 LS1 headers for the non-turbo apps: Long Tubes and a block hugging shorty style, both in stainless steel. Due to demand, we're spec'ing 1-7/8" primaries on the LTs, as more LS1 header applications are moving to this relatively large size for even near stock applications. Packaging may be tight with these larger diameter tubes, but that's what we're gonna shoot for. What this means is - more power and more rpm for lightly and heavily modified LS1 engines.

Spent most of the day test fitting prototype 18x9 (and 17x9) wheels and spacers onto some E46 and E36 cars - and machining camber plate parts and shipping orders and several customer drop-ins and 12 hours of other fun - but we did manage to finish most of the transmission cross-member parts. Tomorrow I should complete the final assembly, then the motor comes out again for some brake line work and other final prep before going out for header fab.

Are you going to make an e46 Kit? Please say yes.

Are you going to make an e46 Kit? Please say yes.

An E46 LS1 is planned immediately following this Beta E36 build. We will take much of what we've learned in these two E36 LS1 swaps and hopefully knock out this swap quickly. We're eyeing potential Alpha E46 options, such as:
http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/131890926-M.jpg

That car is sporting prototype 18x9 D-Force wheels up front, production 17x9 D-force wheels out back. The 18x9 is a thing of beauty...

Awesome info guys. Cant wait to see how the E36 Beta Car turns out.

So as far as "kit" form is concerned how will u do this? Are you going to remove all the peices off of the E36 and make copies or what? A plausible kit would include Engine mounts/bushings, headers, tranny brace/bushings, and wiring?

Would you say that an LS series E36 would run low 12's and possibly 11's based on Tire selecetion and engine mods? Would 10's be out of the question due to lack of tire fitment on the E36 chasis?

Sorry to bring back the final drive gearing stuff but is there charts online, similar to what the diffsonline has for the E36 M3, for cars w/ T-56 trannys? Where you can enter the tire sizes and final drive and get your speed and rpm info?

~Preston

Ls1 into e30 kits? anyone know?

Awesome info guys. Cant wait to see how the E36 Beta Car turns out.

So as far as "kit" form is concerned how will u do this? Are you going to remove all the peices off of the E36 and make copies or what? A plausible kit would include Engine mounts/bushings, headers, tranny brace/bushings, and wiring?

Would you say that an LS series E36 would run low 12's and possibly 11's based on Tire selecetion and engine mods? Would 10's be out of the question due to lack of tire fitment on the E36 chasis?

Sorry to bring back the final drive gearing stuff but is there charts online, similar to what the diffsonline has for the E36 M3, for cars w/ T-56 trannys? Where you can enter the tire sizes and final drive and get your speed and rpm info?

~Preston

Once the car returns from header fab (leaving in a few weeks), it goes for a cage then bodywork, etc. So when the motor is out for that, we'll make the fixtures, etc for all the pieces and drawings to make laser cuts out of some of the parts. This will keep the kit costs down when we do production runs similar to what we're doing for camber plates. Laser cutting or water jet makes repeatable (and pretty) parts.

Kit should include everything you've mentioned plus some options. Shorty header without custom steering shaft or full length headers with custom steering shaft. Wiring from year to year will be tricky to make just one jumper harness, but we'll expand our support for various models as this progresses. There's not much overlap in the harnesses so it might not be a huge deal to support several configurations. We're keeping the existing brakes intact, but moving the ABS. Looking into having the new lines built in a repeatable fashion as well (CNC bender maybe).

Quarter mile speed and ET is a roughly a function of HP and traction so look at any current production car's numbers to get an approximation. New ZO6 runs 12's right or is it 11s? 505hp. I think the regular C6 is in the 12s with 400hp. Fair talked to our engine builder who said we'll get kicked out of the drag strip with the beta car based on our plans for this motor. I think that's in the 10s. Fair can eloborate.

You can easily fit a 265 on a BMW with some fender rolling. Maybe even 275 if you get a little crazy with the rolling tool. :)

I use this tool from Bob Tunnell for calcs. I'll let Fair post gear ratios of the T56 we're using.

http://bimmerhaus.com/tech/gearcalc.xls

Quarter mile speed and ET is a roughly a function of HP and traction so look at any current production car's numbers to get an approximation. New ZO6 runs 12's right or is it 11s? 505hp. I think the regular C6 is in the 12s with 400hp. Fair talked to our engine builder who said we'll get kicked out of the drag strip with the beta car based on our plans for this motor. I think that's in the 10s. Fair can elaborate.
Yes, I have seen (and driven, altho I was a couple of tenths slower in it) a stock C5 Z06 (405hp LS6) run 11.9 quarter mile times @ 119mph. This was on stock street tires, and the car was stock. Weighed 3048 pounds that night at the strip. Same night we both ran my '05 C6 to 12.7 @ 114 - the main difference was in *traction*, as both cars made 352-355 whp on the same dyno a week apart. There's some funky non-defeatable traction control in the LS2 cars. That car weighed 3155 that night, if memory serves me.

So, assuming a 3100 pound full weight M3, and a stock 350 hp Camaro LS1 (stock, but with our long tubes it should make 330 whp at least) you should see low low 12s. With the typical LS1 mods (cam, LS6 intake) and ~360 whp it'll dip into the 11s. There's LOTS of weight that's removable in the E36 and 2800 pounds should be fairly easy to achieve, with sound deadening removal and lighter seats. 450 whp is also easy to do with the stock shortblock (ported heads, bigger cam) so the 10 second zone is probably attainable going that route. Our Beta car has goals of 2500 pounds and 550 whp, with 315mm tires. If it can't run low 10s then we're doing something way wrong.

My STU-prepped, street driven, full interior '97 M3 (non-sunroof) car weighs 2980 soaking wet, and 2940 with racing seats (lightened battery, exhaust, wheels, brakes). The LS1 weighs the same as the S50 motor (within 4 pounds).

Bench racing is worth about $.02, of course.

Well guys I did a little searching and this is some info I found on the T-56 tranny's geraing ratios.

MN6 (LS1) T56 - 2.66:1, 1.78:1, 1.30:1, 1.00:1, 0.74:1, 0.50:1
MN6 (GTO) T56 - 2.97:1, 2.07:1, 1.43:1, 1.00:1, 0.84:1, 0.56:1
M29 ('93 LT1) T56 - 2.97:1, 2.07:1, 1.43:1, 1.00:1, 0.80:1, 0.62:1

So, assuming a 3100 pound full weight M3, and a stock 350 hp Camaro LS1 (stock, but with our long tubes it should make 330 whp at least) you should see low low 12s. With the typical LS1 mods (cam, LS6 intake) and ~360 whp it'll dip into the 11s. There's LOTS of weight that's removable in the E36 and 2800 pounds should be fairly easy to achieve, with sound deadening removal and lighter seats. 450 whp is also easy to do with the stock shortblock (ported heads, bigger cam) so the 10 second zone is probably attainable going that route. Our Beta car has goals of 2500 pounds and 550 whp, with 315mm tires. If it can't run low 10s then we're doing something way wrong.

Sounds beatiful. Its real exciting to see alternative ways to reach power levels. To make 330whp on a S5x your going to need atleast about $8k into the enigne. Our base engine(LS1) w/ your LT headers will start off where many people w/ E36 cars want to end up(300-400whp).

My STU-prepped, street driven, full interior '97 M3 (non-sunroof) car weighs 2980 soaking wet, and 2940 with racing seats (lightened battery, exhaust, wheels, brakes). The LS1 weighs the same as the S50 motor (within 4 pounds).

Wow thats pretty good for weight for a full interior. What seats are you using? As for sound deadeing where are you tlaking about? My car is a street car and I go to the dragstrip/autox every once in a while. I dont want to be taking out all of my sound deadening so my car will be overly loud for the street.

Bench racing is worth about $.02, of course.

Well to each there own. But knowing 1/4 mile times and speeds is a good way to judge how fast you will be against other cars on the street.

Will the headers be available seperatly? Lets say I buy the kit with the shorty's for a stock ls1, but later on I decide to do a heads/cam upgrade on the ls1, could I buy just the LT's and steering shaft?

Whats your harness going to be like? I know with the Nash kit, its kind of a home-made looking "distribution block" type thing. Are you planning on using an altered harness that will plug into the Stock BMW harness? It would be nice to be able to drop out the BMW motor, bolt up your mounts and everything thats going to come in your kit, and then down the road, if you wanted to turn it back to stock, be able to unbolt your kit and drop all of the stock drivetrain back in and have it be PnP. Just curious as to what your electronics are going to be like.

So it seems over the years there's a range of DIY'ers out there. Some people have asked us for "just the basics" while others want a turn key solution. We'll offer the headers and steering shaft separately along with most parts for those that want to tackle some of this alone.

For wiring. Anything is possible, but plan on a custom harness. BMW's connector is standard stuff so I'm fairly certain we can get out hands on them. Even if we get it built professionally by a wiring company in volume (there's a well known one local to us), we're talking $700-1000. If that is something people want, we can do it. BTW, I'm talking about a harness with every wire labeled, every plug built for the LS1, etc.

I'm just not sure how big the market is. Comments welcome.

Every BMW model and year has a different wire schematic so the bulk assembly options for a "standard" harness isn't there. The wiring is a pain in the a$$ because of this.

Every BMW model and year has a different wire schematic so the bulk assembly options for a "standard" harness isn't there. The wiring is a pain in the a$$ because of this.

Yeah, before this goes down a rathole, I should have put a big "If" on the front of my post. :) Every year is different, automatics, 4 cyl, 6 cyl all have differences. We've studied more OBDI wiring diagrams which aren't terrible, but you get into OBDII cars and it gets more complex starting with the EWS starting circuit and going from there. That's not to say we couldn't draw a line in the sand and take an E36 325 5 spd and build 20 sets of harnesses for just that car. It is possible. Not saying we're going to do that though.

Yeah, before this goes down a rathole, I should have put a big "If" on the front of my post. Every year is different, automatics, 4 cyl, 6 cyl all have differences. We've studied more OBDI wiring diagrams which aren't terrible, but you get into OBDII cars and it gets more complex starting with the EWS starting circuit and going from there. That's not to say we couldn't draw a line in the sand and take an E36 325 5 spd and build 20 sets of harnesses for just that car. It is possible. Not saying we're going to do that though.

Well go ahead and do a batch of 20 for the E36 325's w/ 5 spd, thtat would be perfect for me:D .

I seriously hope this begins to get the following that the LSx RX7's have. It will be cool to have our own section on LSx BMW's.

I would be interested in just bringing you my motor/car and you guys do the rest. If this is possible do you have a ball park for the installation alone no parts.

I seriously hope this begins to get the following that the LSx RX7's have. It will be cool to have our own section on LSx BMW's.

I guess you missed the campaign to get the "Engine Conversions" section that this is in.

I guess you missed the campaign to get the "Engine Conversions" section that this is in.

No I saw it, but I mean to have a section under E36's that says LSx for instance.

I was just thinking about the whole weight of the LS1 vs S5x motor. In all actuallity if you Turbo or Supercharge your car to get over 300whp(atleast what any LSx swap will yeild) then its going to weigh more then the LS1 anyways. I read that the Eurosport Twin Screw weighs about 65lb's.

For wiring. Anything is possible, but plan on a custom harness. BMW's connector is standard stuff so I'm fairly certain we can get out hands on them. Even if we get it built professionally by a wiring company in volume (there's a well known one local to us), we're talking $700-1000. If that is something people want, we can do it. BTW, I'm talking about a harness with every wire labeled, every plug built for the LS1, etc.

I'm just not sure how big the market is. Comments welcome.

I went with Speartech (http://www.speartech.com)who builds custom LSx harness to suit your application, and will also program your PCM to spec as well (vats, egr, air, tach signal, redline, etc). I ordered a harness from them built to the length that I needed, with all of the extras deleted off for around $750 IIRC. Reprogramming the PCM was another $300, sure this is stuff your local tuner can do (and maybe for less)...I paid for convenience and customer service - John offers amazing support pre/post purchase!

I went with Speartech (http://www.speartech.com)who builds custom LSx harness to suit your application, and will also program your PCM to spec as well (vats, egr, air, tach signal, redline, etc). I ordered a harness from them built to the length that I needed, with all of the extras deleted off for around $750 IIRC. Reprogramming the PCM was another $300, sure this is stuff your local tuner can do (and maybe for less)...I paid for convenience and customer service - John offers amazing support pre/post purchase!

So for that price, what exactly did you get? Was it a reworked LS1 harness that plugs into the BMW harness and everything works perfectly after? Can you elaborate on what you got?

So for that price, what exactly did you get? Was it a reworked LS1 harness that plugs into the BMW harness and everything works perfectly after? Can you elaborate on what you got?

It did not "plug" into the BMW harness, but I did tap stock wires like tach, speedo, switched power, etc. and yes the I'm using the stock BMW cluster. I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than I already have, if you want to see pics of the harness I used check out link (http://www.hasanmotorsports.com/electrical.htm) and scroll to the bottom for pics (the first set of pictures at the top are of Mike Collins' electrical center)

... check out link (http://www.hasanmotorsports.com/electrical.htm) ...

That link should be in your sig.
Nevermind, I bookmarked it!

someone was calculating ratios- this may help.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/biomechanical_clone/T56.jpg

Important to remember that even thou the T56 front mounting flange (that mates to the bell housing) is the same for almost if not all T56s, however, the input shaft varies in length and spline diameter and spline count.

Units designed for Ford for example has a longer input shaft then the trans for the Camaro. (different spline count also)

Shifter location also plays an important role in the selection. The Viper has the shifter pad 2 inches further forward then the Camaro, there are companies that make adapters to re-locate the shifter to convenient locations if the stock location doesn't work.

For my M6 V8 conversion, I am using the -011 transmission, this is one that Tremec made up for a number of aftermarket companies to use for converting early model Camaros from the T5 5 speed to the T56. The front shaft is 1/2 inch longer then the standard Camaro to compensate for the adapter plate that comes with the trans, The main reason I picked this model is the ratios, first is 2.97 and 6th is 0.62 and the shifter location is same as the Viper which allows me to use the stock hole in the E24 tunnel and the engine is as far back a possible. I did fabricate a 1/2 inch thick aluminum spacer plate so I could use the Stock LS1 Camaro T56 bell housing and GM clutch throw out assembly.

HTH

Wow, lots of T56 questions (and a nice chart by Dave). It's really quite easy. The T56 to use comes from:

1998-2002 Camaro Z28 or Firebird Formula/Trans Am (aka: GM's 4th generation F-body). These years of the "4th gen" had the LS1 V8 engine and therefore have all of the right pieces to work with an LS1. :) These have an integral, factory hydraulic throwout bearing. Plentiful (100's of thousands built?) and cheap ($500-1000 used).

1993-1997 4th generation F-body had the iron LT1 engine and a substantially different T56 (1993 had unique ratios, the rest were the same). I won't comment about any downsides to the LT1 vs the LS1 (...cough... 70 pounds and about 50 horsepower... cough!...). The LT1-version of the T56 has a different bolt pattern and clutch hydraulics, among other changes. I recommend to avoid these for LS1 use, because the conversion to LS1-version is a costly hassle. Search on LS1tech.com (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums) for more specific info on this conversion.

With any factory T56, I would also ditch the 50+ pound dual mass flywheel for an aftermarket aluminum flywheel. Fidanza (http://www.fidanza.com/aluminum-flywheels.aspx) has a 12 pounder that is awesome, and others do as well. The stock dual mass flywheel is so heavy that if placed on a flat concrete floor you have to wedge a prybar or screwdriver underneath to even lift it! OK, now imagine spinning that quickly from idle to 7000 rpms. Now do it with almost 40 fewer pounds of reciprocating mass! Sure, it makes for a little more noise, but the LS1 still has ample torque for effortless zero speed starts.

LS1 E36 Update: We finished the transmission cross-member fabrication work late last night; it is compact and strong. Now we pull the motor and transmission yet again to final weld all of the fabricated parts and begin the ABS relocation + clutch hydraulics. Lots of hydraulic parts are on the way from Goodridge to plumb all of these changes.

A couple more weeks and it should be ready to go out for header fab. If we were not so swamped with shipping parts orders we'd get more done each night. Quit buying our stuff! Oh wait... that's not right... :confused

man, it sounds like we are at the exact same point in our swaps (the e30 LS1 project we have)! We are fabbing up the tranny cross member this week as well and just finished out engine mounts. I really like the look of your juys engine mounts and would be curious to see how you did the tranny cross member.

Oh, and just thought I'd mention that if you guys need a little extra room up front you can use the LS2 water pump with "Wagner Automotive" (they build NASCAR motors) pulley spacers to make the belt run straight. It saved us about 3 inches of well needed room for the radiator.

Oh, and an e36 LS car is probably going to be our next project, though others that we've though about include a Datsun 510 with either the RB20DET or possibly the LS1 (although we need to go look at a 510 to see how much surgery that would require), a 3rd gen rx7 with an LS motor, or a 124 Mercedes with an LS motor. The e36 is the most probable though! Great work guys!

Oh, and just thought I'd mention that if you guys need a little extra room up front you can use the LS2 water pump with "Wagner Automotive" (they build NASCAR motors) pulley spacers to make the belt run straight. It saved us about 3 inches of well needed room for the radiator.

Oh, and an e36 LS car is probably going to be our next project, though others that we've though about include a Datsun 510 with either the RB20DET or possibly the LS1 (although we need to go look at a 510 to see how much surgery that would require), a 3rd gen rx7 with an LS motor, or a 124 Mercedes with an LS motor. The e36 is the most probable though! Great work guys!
Yes, I have pictures of both LS1 and LS2 pumps (from having changed LS1 water pump and owning an LS2) and the LS2 pump is considerably shorter. Luckily, the LS1 sits way back (http://www.vorshlag.com/pictures/e36ls1/E36headers_instl_06.JPG) from the radiator core support in this chassis, so we're not space constrained in that direction on the E36 install. We looked at the electric LS1 pumps as well. Also short, and you can run them with the engine off to circulate coolant in the pits/between sessions/etc.

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/125193154-S.jpg

Good tip on the LS2 pump + spacer, though! I suspect that will be a great tool for short engine bay installs, like the E30 or even a 2002.

We had an opportunity last week to get 2 free BMW 2002s (one even drove!) and were cooking the numbers to try to squeeze a super stripped, simple build under a "$2007 budget", to be able to run a 2002 LS1 in the GRM $2007 Challenge. It was barely possible, using all sorts of free or cheap parts we have lying around - and some creative accounting. :stickoutt There's just not enough time to tackle another project right now, with all of the suspension/chassis/wheel prototype development work we're already doing + customer Beta E36 LS1 + our XP E36 LS1. Is there some way to get by on zero sleep for months on end? I've been trying. :eyecrazy

Wow...a 2002 LS1...Would it really fit? I assume you guys took the measurements and all to see? And for less than $2007? That's freakin nuts!

Wow...a 2002 LS1...Would it really fit? I assume you guys took the measurements and all to see? And for less than $2007? That's freakin nuts!
I'll try not to dilute this thread with "what ifs" and "what about this chassis" questions, but since I posed it... yea, it could fit. Wouldn't be pretty and would require some "smokey wrench" work to do it. And no, we have zero intention of offering a 2002 LS1 kit in this lifetime. It would be neither easily reproducible nor a bolt-in swap by any stretch of the imagination! :D

As for the budget, well, it would take some creative accounting, lots of free labor and parts, and super cheap paint, but that's half the "Challenge" in the GRM $2007 Challenge. :D Starting out with free cars always helps, and having access to tons of free BMW suspension/wheels/drivetrain pieces would have made it even easier for us (since we have used prototype parts that we could toss into a GRM entry that we built). We had first talked about a BMW M42 swap (4 banger) and Getrag 5-spd into the same 2002, with a junkyard turbo and dangerous amounts of nitrous, of course. Domestic V8s are so much more reliable, fun and easier to tune! Our volunteer wised up and backed out, thankfully.

To get a complete LS1 and T56 transmission for under $3000 is impossible; the obvious money saver would be to get a complete 4.8L or 5.3L LS1-based truck engine and some sort of cheap T5 from a 3rd gen Camaro (strong enough for a light 2002, for a while, and it can be made to bolt up to an LS1). I've seen complete 5.3L truck engines for under $1000 and old T5s are $200-400. Fabrication materials would be minor, but the work would be major! If you want to bench race potential GRM builds further, just start a new thread in this forum. :) Its a neat event/concept, but not a big money maker nor makes much of a magazine star (outside of GRM coverage).

I wish we had a local BMW racer willing to tackle the financing/legwork/etc of a GRM $2007 Challenge car, but we don't have the time or funded volunteers. An E30 LS1 would be a better fit, but costs would be tighter. We're trying to make the Ultimate Track Car Challenge with our Beta LS1 E36 car as it is, if we can get it done and sorted in time (July 29th at VIR) and score the invite. We're trying to start a SpecE30 build, too. And there's another new car in our stable which also needs full prep and development. Oktoberfest (in Ft. Worth, our back yard!) and Solo2 Nationals are also big events on our radar for 2007. Other than those 3 big events, we went to 26 Regional and National competition events in 2006, and our 2007 schedule is worse (we're running 2 to 3 different cars at the same events on many weekends). Again - not enough time for a $2007 build. :(

Doh! Where'd the last 30 minutes go?? No more bench racing for me. Back to work...

It would be nice to see another badass BMW in '07. :)

I've read the whole thread, but haven't run across (perhaps due to my own cluelessness):

What clutch and flywheel are you using?

Are you using some sort of short shifter? Will it have to be custom, or will your customizations allow the owner to get whatever short shift he wants?

What boltons and whatnot do you intend to use?

Would the LS1 kit you guys intend to put together work if I bought an LS6 instead?

Are you shooting for a smooth and sophisticated DD that unleashes when you get on it, or will this be a hardcore machine through and through?

Thanks!

-Evan

Edit: More questions:

Using stock LS1 cams or no?

Custom tuning, I assume? Done how and by whom?

Custom tuning, I assume? Done how and by whom?

Lots of tuners out there for LSX engines.

I've read the whole thread, but haven't run across (perhaps due to my own cluelessness):

What clutch and flywheel are you using?

On the first car a Fidanza 12 pound flywheel and replacement GM C5 Z06 clutch was used. On the beta car we will use a stock flywheel and clutch for a few days of shake down, then move to a similar lightweight flywheel and stronger clutch set-up.

Are you using some sort of short shifter? Will it have to be custom, or will your customizations allow the owner to get whatever short shift he wants?
The shifter we will use on this car is an offset shifter by McLeod. This allows lateral and fore-aft offset with many variations. We are working with them directly (haven't found resellers) and will likely offer this as a kit option.

What boltons and whatnot do you intend to use?
Our beta car will spend a few weeks in stock form, to get some performance data and work out any bugs, then while it goes in for cagework a 427" LS1 motor (~650hp on pump gas) will be built and installed shortly thereafter.

Would the LS1 kit you guys intend to put together work if I bought an LS6 instead?
LS1 and LS6 are virtually interchangeable. Differences are internal, other than the LS6's unique intake and lack of EGR (which the 2001-2 LS1 went to). The "kit" would be the same.

The LS2/7 are more different than the LS1/6 - they have some accessory changes, oilpan differences, electronic throttle, different injector lengths, fuel rail changes, and a number of engine control wiring changes (crank trigger is in a completely different area, reluctor is changed, etc). There are conversion kits to make the LS2 function with LS1 wiring, if needed.

Are you shooting for a smooth and sophisticated DD that unleashes when you get on it, or will this be a hardcore machine through and through?
Yes and yes. :D This build, once it has the 7 liter engine, will be a bit radical but still "street drivable". The goal for the kit is to be able to make the smooth polished daily driver or a wild track monster, whatever you choose.

Edit: More questions:

Using stock LS1 cams or no?
The stock CAM will be used for shake down, but a large hydraulic roller will be used in the 7 liter. Custom roller camshaft is about $350 and can work with stock rockers and lifters, but the springs, retainers, locks and pushrods should be upgraded.

Custom tuning, I assume? Done how and by whom?
Yes, custom tuning. There are lots of area tuners than can be used, as well as LS1-edit and similar packages that can be purchased for laptop tuning. I have worked on EFI tuning in the past so we will do this ourselves on cars we build directly.

New steering shaft looks great. Will post pictures later today, hopefully.

Thats a crazy swap, I like.

ill be the first in line to buy a kit..please keep us posted

ill be the first in line to buy a kit..please keep us posted

No. Quite frankly, you won't. :stickoutt

No. Quite frankly, you won't. :stickoutt

i think there are quite a few of us that would be waiting in line. :buttrock

i think there are quite a few of us that would be waiting in line.

I'm one of them. Hopefully this kit is completed before the year ends. I would like to have this by next year. ASAP

I think I read all of the posts, but I may have missed one.
Have you guys come up with a ballpark price for a complete swap?
Like, I bring a 318 with the original motor, and I pick it up with the ls1 swapped in. Just stock ls1 with the t56, no motor mods aside from the necessary headers.
The work that has been going on looks great and I'm really impressed.
Keep up the good work, it all looks amazing. :)

I'm one of them. Hopefully this kit is completed before the year ends. I would like to have this by next year. ASAP

We hope to have the parts wrapped up June 30th. It won't be ready to kit at that point, but if we can't make it by year end, it will be because we're dead.

Pricing isn't fully determined yet. There appears to be a "DIY'er" market all the way to "turn key" market. We plan on selling either an entire kit(s) or buy as you go sub kits. So if you want to get mounts and wait for the next stage as your budget allows, you can do that.

<off topic>
As a side note, our engine builder was in town last night. Once the beta car goes to header fab, our XP car starts going under the knife. If anyone follows SCCA autocrossing, we're building this car for X Prepared plus the occassional track day maybe NASA Time Trials too. The formula for a rwd car is 1200 lbs + displacement*200 + 50 for ABS. We're confident that we can get the car to 2390 which is what a 5.7L would be. Engine builder says that's good for an "easy" 480 rwhp. Which works out to 5 lbs/hp. While this won't be a streetable car, it sure will be fun at the track. :) And if we get it lighter, we can use a 4.8L crank to make a 5.1L which puts the car at 2270 pounds with 430 rwhp. Weight is the enemy in autocross as we all know.

The point of this kit is to make a quality streetable kit. We just want something that can prove the durability "beyond a reasonable doubt". :)

<end off topic>

Sounds awesome man. Cant wait to see this thing finalize. Keep us posted and more pics please.

how much for the complete kit without motor and tranny gonna run?

how much for the complete kit without motor and tranny gonna run?

Pricing isn't fully determined yet.

You made it three hours before a repeat question.

I finally got my M3 Evolution rear subframe for my M3 Evolution differential.
I will do a write-up during my install and I think it will be surprising.

Now that I have the two to compare, modifying the stock US subframe would be simple and I am now trying to see if the Evolution differential casing is the same as any from US models.

It may come down to needing only two mounting pieces from the Evolution (or