Shiv just up'd the playing field. 355 RWHP and 405 RWTQ with chip and cat-back. So let's see...car + mods $45K.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=670286

Of course the M3 will have other advantages but for this price, the 335 is one hell of a car.

id rather take the m3 cuz its n/a and plus its a ///m :-)

///M Power

Real enthusiasts like us will choose the ///M.

But, what's the average consumer (with enough $$$) gonna do?

Will this hurt sales for either model?

///M ...the 335 is nothing but a 3series.

hmmmm......

what would I do?.....


hmmmmmmmmm///M.....

Real enthusiasts like us will choose the ///M.

But, what's the average consumer (with enough $$$) gonna do?

Will this hurt sales for either model?

As a "real enthusiast" with an ///M, I disagree as do other ///M owners. For mid $40's (new car + chip), you have a car that will rival or best the projected numbers for the upcoming e92 M3 in acceleration and with a few suspension mods, wheels and tires, perhaps in the corners as well.

We'll see when the new M3 comes out...but don't be surprised if it frequently see the tail lights of the modded 335's.

...the 335 is nothing but a 3series.

Keep thinking that.

By the way, as an ///M owner, I thought this forum may be frequented by other ///M owners who wanted to intelligently discuss the pros/cons of a slightly modded 335 vs. the soon-to-be-released e90/92 M3. Any out there?

It would be much easier to turbo the V8 M3 than it would be to turn the 335 into a high revving v8. Just a thought (cost relatively put aside).

Perhaps the new M will be turbo. Clearly, BMW is embracing forced induction with the 335 and the turbo Mini cooper so close behind. I expect the turbo engine in the mini will end up in the 1 series. Hmmm...

Keep thinking that.

By the way, as an ///M owner, I thought this forum may be frequented by other ///M owners who wanted to intelligently discuss the pros/cons of a slightly modded 335 vs. the soon-to-be-released e90/92 M3. I guess this forum doesn't have any of those.

Performance is one factor, aethestics are another. Flared fenders, better interior bits and pieces including seats, gauges, leather quality, finishing, etc.

I guess in a couple of years the next question will be....would you prefer a Z4 3.5 or a ///MZ with the E92 ///M motor?

I think a majority of ///M owners, only buy it because of the badging and not because it is any 'better'. Probably 90% of the people in the track forum could take an E30 318 and beat the typical E92 M3 driver on a road course.

I don't see how one can claim that the interior of the ///M is going to be much better than the non-M series. The interiors will be relatively the same except for perhaps the seats and minor crap like steering wheel ///M logo, doorsills, shift knob (possibly), speedometer covering, and floor mats. It's not like the entire dash will be redone -- it will have a few 'extra's' to delineate that it is an ///M model, e.g., stickers to make people feel happy that they bought the ///M.

A lot of ///M drivers, claim how awesome their car is -- but, i feel confident in saying that many of them -- probably even 90% of the ///M driver's on these boards have NO idea how to drive their cars. As a result, whether it has LSD, 400 hp, etc ... they don't know how to use it. Heck, most of them NEVER take their car onto a track (not 1320' -- road course or autocross), and a lot of them have never been on one; but, claim how superior they can drive over others.

Equal skills in driving -- 335i modded vs. E92 M3 -- but, take a person with better driving skills vs. typical E92 M3 owner (enthusiast), and 335i guy will walk the E92 M3 on a road course. Heck, I would bet a mini cooper S driver could outdrive the E92 M3 owner.

The 335i has a much better torque curve (more useable area) -- and, for most people, would be a MUCH better car to daily drive and have fun with, than paying the additional price of the M3.

E92 M3 driver's -- IMO, will be ones that either:

a) buy it because it is an ///M and are a slave to having newest/coolest, hippest gadget to show off to people; or

b) actually track/drive the vehicle at a road course/autocross.

I would say 95% of the people fall under category A and 5% fall under category B. Then again, doesn't just apply to M3 owners, applies to Z06 vs. C6 owners, 997 tt vs. 997 owners, etc. If you've got the money -- then do it; but, if you want to be wise about your money -- perhaps the M3 is not what you are looking for. You might be better off buying an E46 M3 and keeping about $30K in your pockets ... :) .

I think a majority of ///M owners, only buy it because of the badging and not because it is any 'better'. Probably 90% of the people in the track forum could take an E30 318 and beat the typical E92 M3 driver on a road course.

I don't see how one can claim that the interior of the ///M is going to be much better than the non-M series. The interiors will be relatively the same except for perhaps the seats and minor crap like steering wheel ///M logo, doorsills, shift knob (possibly), speedometer covering, and floor mats. It's not like the entire dash will be redone -- it will have a few 'extra's' to delineate that it is an ///M model, e.g., stickers to make people feel happy that they bought the ///M.

A lot of ///M drivers, claim how awesome their car is -- but, i feel confident in saying that many of them -- probably even 90% of the ///M driver's on these boards have NO idea how to drive their cars. As a result, whether it has LSD, 400 hp, etc ... they don't know how to use it. Heck, most of them NEVER take their car onto a track (not 1320' -- road course or autocross), and a lot of them have never been on one; but, claim how superior they can drive over others.

Equal skills in driving -- 335i modded vs. E92 M3 -- but, take a person with better driving skills vs. typical E92 M3 owner (enthusiast), and 335i guy will walk the E92 M3 on a road course. Heck, I would bet a mini cooper S driver could outdrive the E92 M3 owner.

The 335i has a much better torque curve (more useable area) -- and, for most people, would be a MUCH better car to daily drive and have fun with, than paying the additional price of the M3.

E92 M3 driver's -- IMO, will be ones that either:

a) buy it because it is an ///M and are a slave to having newest/coolest, hippest gadget to show off to people; or

b) actually track/drive the vehicle at a road course/autocross.

I would say 95% of the people fall under category A and 5% fall under category B. Then again, doesn't just apply to M3 owners, applies to Z06 vs. C6 owners, 997 tt vs. 997 owners, etc. If you've got the money -- then do it; but, if you want to be wise about your money -- perhaps the M3 is not what you are looking for. You might be better off buying an E46 M3 and keeping about $30K in your pockets ... :) .

You don't have to track the vehicle at a road course/autocross to appreciate it.

I sure as hell won't be taking a $70K vehicle to the track.

thats the dilemma iv had ... had a E46 M3 for three years before selling it in Sept 06. the M3 would always be compared to turbo cars. I drove a few turbo cars and they are really really fun to drive ... the torque on turbo cars is just amazing. BMW saw a gap in their line up and gave people a turbo car. the 335i.

///M philosophy will never turbo charge ... They use F1 tech, high reving motors to get performance, so i doubt you will see a turbo ///M car.

And like the E46 ///M3 and ///M5 they had their problems so sure the E92 wont be any different. Shuddering discs under high speed (sure all E46 ///M3 driver know about this one :)). Peeling interior trim ... they had their annoyances ...

so right know im still between a E92 ///M3 and a E93 335i convertible (thought of the boxster s ... decided against). i know the 335i drop top wont be as fast because of the weight, but the torque should be great

Real enthusiasts like us will choose the ///M.

But, what's the average consumer (with enough $$$) gonna do?

Will this hurt sales for either model?

I see your point, but it can be argued that real enthusiasts care more about hp per $ than if it's a M car or not.

I think a majority of ///M owners, only buy it because of the badging and not because it is any 'better'. Probably 90% of the people in the track forum could take an E30 318 and beat the typical E92 M3 driver on a road course.

I don't see how one can claim that the interior of the ///M is going to be much better than the non-M series. The interiors will be relatively the same except for perhaps the seats and minor crap like steering wheel ///M logo, doorsills, shift knob (possibly), speedometer covering, and floor mats. It's not like the entire dash will be redone -- it will have a few 'extra's' to delineate that it is an ///M model, e.g., stickers to make people feel happy that they bought the ///M.

A lot of ///M drivers, claim how awesome their car is -- but, i feel confident in saying that many of them -- probably even 90% of the ///M driver's on these boards have NO idea how to drive their cars. As a result, whether it has LSD, 400 hp, etc ... they don't know how to use it. Heck, most of them NEVER take their car onto a track (not 1320' -- road course or autocross), and a lot of them have never been on one; but, claim how superior they can drive over others.

Equal skills in driving -- 335i modded vs. E92 M3 -- but, take a person with better driving skills vs. typical E92 M3 owner (enthusiast), and 335i guy will walk the E92 M3 on a road course. Heck, I would bet a mini cooper S driver could outdrive the E92 M3 owner.

The 335i has a much better torque curve (more useable area) -- and, for most people, would be a MUCH better car to daily drive and have fun with, than paying the additional price of the M3.

E92 M3 driver's -- IMO, will be ones that either:

a) buy it because it is an ///M and are a slave to having newest/coolest, hippest gadget to show off to people; or

b) actually track/drive the vehicle at a road course/autocross.

I would say 95% of the people fall under category A and 5% fall under category B. Then again, doesn't just apply to M3 owners, applies to Z06 vs. C6 owners, 997 tt vs. 997 owners, etc. If you've got the money -- then do it; but, if you want to be wise about your money -- perhaps the M3 is not what you are looking for. You might be better off buying an E46 M3 and keeping about $30K in your pockets ... :) .


Your generalizations really don't seem to hold any credibility. I don't track my car, but I sure know the difference between a 330 and an M3 when I'm hitting some back roads or taking a cloverleaf a bit faster than I probably should. You don't have to track a car to appreciate it's capabilities, or even extend it to it's capabilities for that matter. Sometimes it's just knowing that you can and having OPTIONS even if you don't take advantage of them.

I think we should all remember that the difference in M and non-M was, IMO, greatest in the e46 series. A 330CI ZHP, as far as i know the fastest stock non-m car sold, is still legions away from a stock e46 m3. Just one series before then, a 328 with very, very basics mods, can easily hang with an m3. And although this may not be true for newer cars, i know few people with e36 M3's, and more and more people with e46 m3's, who are upgrading the components that are "better" on m cars, like suspension, brakes, etc.

Having said that, i think we can all agree its too early to judge. If i could afford the difference between a 335i and an M3, i'd get the m3, simply because i'm weary of the twin turbo technology. Once it has been out for a few years? might be a different story.

I think we should all remember that the difference in M and non-M was, IMO, greatest in the e46 series. A 330CI ZHP, as far as i know the fastest stock non-m car sold, is still legions away from a stock e46 m3. Just one series before then, a 328 with very, very basics mods, can easily hang with an m3. And although this may not be true for newer cars, i know few people with e36 M3's, and more and more people with e46 m3's, who are upgrading the components that are "better" on m cars, like suspension, brakes, etc.

Having said that, i think we can all agree its too early to judge. If i could afford the difference between a 335i and an M3, i'd get the m3, simply because i'm weary of the twin turbo technology. Once it has been out for a few years? might be a different story.

A few comments...

ZHP + FI = M3 performance for $10k less in price. That's a lot of $$$ for many people. It also fits the sleeper mold better for those that like going that route.

Turbo technology has been around for the better part of the last century. There's no reason to fear them. Actually, turbo cars often turn out to be more reliable than high HP NA motors.

Real enthusiasts like us will choose the ///M.

But, what's the average consumer (with enough $$$) gonna do?

Will this hurt sales for either model?

Yes and waste their perfectly good warranty on a brand new 40k+ car

As a "real enthusiast" with an ///M, I disagree as do other ///M owners. For mid $40's (new car + chip), you have a car that will rival or best the projected numbers for the upcoming e92 M3 in acceleration and with a few suspension mods, wheels and tires, perhaps in the corners as well.

We'll see when the new M3 comes out...but don't be surprised if it frequently see the tail lights of the modded 335's.
Rival in what? Straight line? On a track where most real enthusiast care it has no chance until you spend a couple grand on it.

Yes and waste their perfectly good warranty on a brand new 40k+ car


Rival in what? Straight line? On a track where most real enthusiast care it has no chance until you spend a couple grand on it.

We've owned three chipped cars under warranty with many other mods as well. I've never had a warranty claim denied. Not one. One dealer I even told and they didn't care. Turbo failure on a VW. You'd think they would've denied that one right there but they didn't. A dealer is just trying to make money. Unless the warranty rep is standing around and you come in blabbling away, they're not going to deny your claim. If you stay quiet about it, the only way they'll even notice is if they have to do very indepth diagnosis for a fuel trim issue or something. You can also have a stock program, which once switched on is identical to the original software and the dealer will never know. Dealers do alot worse things than replacing warranty parts when they shouldn't be. Plus, it's not likely they'll void your entire warranty anyways. The process is a PITA if the consumer fights back.

I've worked for 10 different manufactures in service, and to date I've only seen one warranty voided. The reason was b/c the car was totalled, bought back from the ins. co., then rebuilt very poorly by some idiot who though he knew what he was doing. Porsche rep took one look at that car and said..."uhh ah, no". The VMI showed no evidence of it being totalled.

Rival in what? Straight line? On a track where most real enthusiast care it has no chance until you spend a couple grand on it.

I love how people put the M3 up on a pedestal like no non-///M car could ever handle the same or better.:rolleyes This coming from an M owner.

We've owned three chipped cars under warranty with many other mods as well. I've never had a warranty claim denied. Not one. One dealer I even told and they didn't care. Turbo failure on a VW. You'd think they would've denied that one right there but they didn't. A dealer is just trying to make money. Unless the warranty rep is standing around and you come in blabbling away, they're not going to deny your claim. If you stay quiet about it, the only way they'll even notice is if they have to do very indepth diagnosis for a fuel trim issue or something. You can also have a stock program, which once switched on is identical to the original software and the dealer will never know. Dealers do alot worse things than replacing warranty parts when they shouldn't be. Plus, it's not likely they'll void your entire warranty anyways. The process is a PITA if the consumer fights back.

I've worked for 10 different manufactures in service, and to date I've only seen one warranty voided. The reason was b/c the car was totalled, bought back from the ins. co., then rebuilt very poorly by some idiot who though he knew what he was doing. Porsche rep took one look at that car and said..."uhh ah, no". The VMI showed no evidence of it being totalled.



I love how people put the M3 up on a pedestal like no non-///M car could ever handle the same or better.:rolleyes This coming from an M owner.

and I love how turbo junkies think that any car with a turbo is better than any na car.

I am surprised that no one mentions about the Diff. I would get M because it comes with a diff.

We've owned three chipped cars under warranty with many other mods as well. I've never had a warranty claim denied. Not one. One dealer I even told and they didn't care. Turbo failure on a VW. You'd think they would've denied that one right there but they didn't. A dealer is just trying to make money. Unless the warranty rep is standing around and you come in blabbling away, they're not going to deny your claim. If you stay quiet about it, the only way they'll even notice is if they have to do very indepth diagnosis for a fuel trim issue or something. You can also have a stock program, which once switched on is identical to the original software and the dealer will never know. Dealers do alot worse things than replacing warranty parts when they shouldn't be. Plus, it's not likely they'll void your entire warranty anyways. The process is a PITA if the consumer fights back.

I've worked for 10 different manufactures in service, and to date I've only seen one warranty voided. The reason was b/c the car was totalled, bought back from the ins. co., then rebuilt very poorly by some idiot who though he knew what he was doing. Porsche rep took one look at that car and said..."uhh ah, no". The VMI showed no evidence of it being totalled.



I love how people put the M3 up on a pedestal like no non-///M car could ever handle the same or better.:rolleyes This coming from an M owner.


Thats the whole point of Dinan retard. It doesnt void your warranty! Im sure BMW will car when the start seeing tons of 335s comming in with remaped ecus that could have problems...

On the handling note ive driven both coupe/sedan 335 and the handling is nothing like any M3 i have driven...

and I love how turbo junkies think that any car with a turbo is better than any na car.

All I'm saying is that m3 performance will easily be achieved for less money that the cost of a M3. That's on the street, or the track. I've driven lots of e46 328/330's that smoke e46 M3's at the track. Stop living in your "more money = more performance" bubble. I'd also rather pay 335 insurance while I'm at it. Spending extra money to insure a car that says ///M on the back is pointless.

Thats the whole point of Dinan retard. It doesnt void your warranty! Im sure BMW will car when the start seeing tons of 335s comming in with remaped ecus that could have problems...

For the record, I have never wasted money on Dinan components. Still, no warranty claims denied by BMW.

On the handling note ive driven both coupe/sedan 335 and the handling is nothing like any M3 i have driven...

I had a chance to drive an e46 M3 comp. package immediately following a e90 330i SP sedan on the track last summer. The e90's new rear suspension design beats the piss out of the e46 by a long shot, and the e90 felt much more stable in the corners. I think you're suffering from ///M syndrome. It's an easy thing to do, and I've been there myself. I used to think the e46 M3 was the best car out there, until I actually drove it on the track at the limits.

All I'm saying is that m3 performance will easily be achieved for less money that the cost of a M3. That's on the street, or the track. I've driven lots of e46 328/330's that smoke e46 M3's at the track. Stop living in your "more money = more performance" bubble. I'd also rather pay 335 insurance while I'm at it. Spending extra money to insure a car that says ///M on the back is pointless.
Ok...You after you spend money to achieve it...If youve got the money buy and m3 and mod it. There will eventually be a turbo/sc for the 420hp V8 engine. As well as advanced coilover systems for both car.Eithar way BMW didnt design these cars to be modified...They designed them as is out of the factory stock. And the M3 will dystroy the 335 all day long stock. Hopefully we see a competiton package M3 or possibly a CSL :evil2



For the record, I have never wasted money on Dinan components. Still, no warranty claims denied by BMW.
Im just saying that Dinans whole appeal to some people...Also not every BMW mechanic is going to let this stuff slide.Im sure if BMW starts seeing a ton of modded 335s comming in for oil changes ect thats money straight from BMWs pocket's they'll void the warranty.



I had a chance to drive an e46 M3 comp. package immediately following a e90 330i SP sedan on the track last summer. The e90's new rear suspension design beats the piss out of the e46 by a long shot, and the e90 felt much more stable in the corners. I think you're suffering from ///M syndrome. It's an easy thing to do, and I've been there myself. I used to think the e46 M3 was the best car out there, until I actually drove it on the track at the limits.
Im not saying the E46 M3 is the best handling car. I actually prefer my car over it....I know its not the best car. Im just saying stock for stock any three series will be beat out badly by the M3 in the same generation. No one can deny it. There will be mods for the V8 put some cams, headers, exhaust, ect for the M3 and eventually forced induction and stiffen up the suspension even more and you'll have a fire breathing beast.....But you can do that with any car. There will always be ///M purist and then there will always be people who are willing to settle for less...

And as for the E90 feeling more planted the E46 good for it. That means BMW is doing its job and moving forward, whats wrong with that?

Ok...You after you spend money to achieve it...If youve got the money buy and m3 and mod it. There will eventually be a turbo/sc for the 420hp V8 engine. As well as advanced coilover systems for both car.Eithar way BMW didnt design these cars to be modified...They designed them as is out of the factory stock. And the M3 will dystroy the 335 all day long stock. Hopefully we see a competiton package M3 or possibly a CSL :evil2

You are correct. You can mod both cars. Thing is though, as BMW increases the stock HP and continues to push the limits of their motors, making more power from aftermarket add ons becomes more and more expensive for less and less hp gains. S/c kits for our cars (e36's) came out around $6-8k when they first arrived. The E46 kits are all over $10k, many reaching as high as $15-20k. Even Dinan's base kit is $11k for just parts and about 2k for labor, and they aren't even getting a 100bhp raise in power. Dinan's intercooled system costs $17k in parts and about another $2500 in labor for a measly 130bhp gain. And both of those prices aren't including all the other mods that are "required" previous to installing the system. AA's system is $10k plus labor, and it makes a bit more power but is still around only 100bhp for $12k. I wouldn't be surprised, 5-6 years from now :rolleyes when someone gets the balls to market an e90/92 M3 S/C kit, it will cost upwards of $25k for the same 100hp or maybe less hp gain. And again, that's not including all the other parts you need to really make these kits useable. By the time you're done with clutch, suspension, brakes, full exhaust, engine programming, dyno tuning, etc, you're going to spend $30k+ to FI a e90/92 v8 M3. And still, after that $30k you'd be able to build a 335 that whoops up on it for much less money. Plus, companines always charge a premium for ///M car mods because they know they people will still pay for it. So I still say, I'd rather spend $60-70k and have a 500hp 335, then spend upwards of $100k for a s/c M3. I mean if you're spending 100k, you should be buying a Porsche/Ford GT/etc. anyways.

HP/$ ratio for mods is always better on cars that are FI from the factory. Everything inside the motor is designed for an FI application already, and it's easy to fab a new exhaust manifold and slap some huge turbo's on them. I will bet that we are going to see streetable 600-700 hp n54 engine'd cars in the next year. It'll probably take a 5-10 years for someone to make those same #'s on the new e90/92 M3's, and at an astronomical expense compared to the n54 cars.

Abbreviated list of mods needed for big power....

335: software, exhaust, clutch, flywheel, suspension, and turbo's is all you need to make big power reliably.

e90/92 m3 will need: software, exhaust, clutch, flywheel, suspension, S/c, full engine rebuild including headwork, pistons, rods, hardware, valves, retainers, and the list goes on and on.

I'm sure that this is an argument is one that us enthusiasts will have for the rest of time, so I'm not sure we'll ever come to an agreement on which will be the better option with cost aside. However, it's going to be a ton cheaper to get big hp out of the 335 than the M3. Not to mention how bad insurance companies rape you when you tell them you have a M car. Spending 100k on a M3 is just insane IMO. No matter how badass it is. Putting $30k+ in mods on any car is just throwing money away IMO.


Im just saying that Dinans whole appeal to some people...Also not every BMW mechanic is going to let this stuff slide.Im sure if BMW starts seeing a ton of modded 335s comming in for oil changes ect thats money straight from BMWs pocket's they'll void the warranty.

I understand the appeal of the Dinan parts, but honestly I think you'd still save money just paying for the related repairs yourself than the premium they charge for their parts. Also, a lot of people have had big time issues with BMW/Dinan not honoring warranty claims. Some people have gotten screwed over big time as a result. There are a bunch of threads on here about it. Check them out if you get time.


Im not saying the E46 M3 is the best handling car. I actually prefer my car over it....I know its not the best car. Im just saying stock for stock any three series will be beat out badly by the M3 in the same generation. No one can deny it. There will be mods for the V8 put some cams, headers, exhaust, ect for the M3 and eventually forced induction and stiffen up the suspension even more and you'll have a fire breathing beast.....But you can do that with any car. There will always be ///M purist and then there will always be people who are willing to settle for less...

And as for the E90 feeling more planted the E46 good for it. That means BMW is doing its job and moving forward, whats wrong with that?

Stock 335 vs stock e90/92 M3, the M3 will always be the top performer. However, that's not the argument we're having here. The debate is that for the same amount of money as a new M3, could a 335 be built to smoke a stock/mildly modded M3. The answer to that question in my mind is without a doubt. If you've never owned/modded a car that was FI from the factory, you'd have no idea how easy it is to get power out of them. People are driving around on 800-1000hp stock bottom end supra's/skylines that were built and designed over a decade ago. Total investment on those cars is sometimes less than $8-10k in mods. The VW/Audi modders are getting 100 ft-lbs of torque with just a 2.5 inch exhaust and ecu reflash. You could never find 100 hp/torque for less than $1000 in mods on a NA car. It's just impossible.

Stock 335 vs stock e90/92 M3, the M3 will always be the top performer. However, that's not the argument we're having here. The debate is that for the same amount of money as a new M3, could a 335 be built to smoke a stock/mildly modded M3. The answer to that question in my mind is without a doubt. If you've never owned/modded a car that was FI from the factory, you'd have no idea how easy it is to get power out of them. People are driving around on 800-1000hp stock bottom end supra's/skylines that were built and designed over a decade ago. Total investment on those cars is sometimes less than $8-10k in mods. The VW/Audi modders are getting 100 ft-lbs of torque with just a 2.5 inch exhaust and ecu reflash. You could never find 100 hp/torque for less than $1000 in mods on a NA car. It's just impossible.

Amen.

All I'm saying is that m3 performance will easily be achieved for less money that the cost of a M3. That's on the street, or the track. I've driven lots of e46 328/330's that smoke e46 M3's at the track. Stop living in your "more money = more performance" bubble.

That last statement is laughable. I would never suggest more money=more performance. What I will state is that I would rather have my daily driver as a car that is 'enhanced' from the factory and therefor responsibility for issues lies within the warranty and save me time so I don't have to HASSLE with it. The minute you make a significant modification to a car, you are assuming a certain amount of risk. Risk that I'm not willing to take on a daily driver OR on a car that has an amount financed that I could not quickly, and without penalty, absolve.

If you want to play the performance for $ game...you're passionate about the wrong brand.

That last statement is laughable. I would never suggest more money=more performance. What I will state is that I would rather have my daily driver as a car that is 'enhanced' from the factory and therefor responsibility for issues lies within the warranty and save me time so I don't have to HASSLE with it. The minute you make a significant modification to a car, you are assuming a certain amount of risk. Risk that I'm not willing to take on a daily driver OR on a car that has an amount financed that I could not quickly, and without penalty, absolve.

If you want to play the performance for $ game...you're passionate about the wrong brand.

No...THAT last statement is laughable.

You are on the wrong webboard. Go to www.iluvmystockbmw.com and play with your friends over there.

That last statement is laughable. I would never suggest more money=more performance. What I will state is that I would rather have my daily driver as a car that is 'enhanced' from the factory and therefor responsibility for issues lies within the warranty and save me time so I don't have to HASSLE with it. The minute you make a significant modification to a car, you are assuming a certain amount of risk. Risk that I'm not willing to take on a daily driver OR on a car that has an amount financed that I could not quickly, and without penalty, absolve.

If you want to play the performance for $ game...you're passionate about the wrong brand.

No...THAT last statement is laughable.

You are on the wrong webboard. Go to www.iluvmystockbmw.com and play with your friends over there.

:lol Obviously the OP wanted compairisons of the cars that included their modding potential. Hence why he mentioned the #'s 335's are making with small mods in the first post. If you're going to participate in a thread, how about actually paying attention to what the OP is asking. We all see your point, and we all disagree with your logic. We are real enthusiasts that buy these cars for their performance capibilty, not the name.

Wow.

You really know alot about a car that nothing other than the approx. HP has been released. You even know how its constructed, and how good its intake is.

Pretty much all of the logic in this thread is faulty based on nothing else then the fact that the car hasn't even be in any of your hands. Also, something you aren't taking into account is that the 335i's HP was downplayed by BMW. It is possible that the M3 will receive the same treatment.

No...THAT last statement is laughable.

You are on the wrong webboard. Go to www.iluvmystockbmw.com and play with your friends over there.

???

how is that statement laughable? Are you actually suggesting that BMW provides the best, or even a good, platform for extracting cheap hp per $ ? :confused

No need to be an ass....

:lol Obviously the OP wanted compairisons of the cars that included their modding potential. Hence why he mentioned the #'s 335's are making with small mods in the first post. If you're going to participate in a thread, how about actually paying attention to what the OP is asking. We all see your point, and we all disagree with your logic. We are real enthusiasts that buy these cars for their performance capibilty, not the name.

The OP didn't want anything other than to point out the 'modding' potential of the 335 and how you could cheaply get HP numbers close to the expected M3. He didn't ask anything. So, I was paying attention....where you? "All" disagree with my "logic"? It's not logic, it's an opinion...and it doesn't appear that everyone agrees with your opinion.

Additionally, by claiming I'm not a 'real enthusiast', please do tell me where the list for a 'real enthusiast' is? If I was buying the car just for the name, I would not have extended to get the M3, I would have just bought any old BMW. But I didn't. There were several cars on my list...only one of them was a BMW. I didn't chose the M3 because it was a BMW. You're pretty quick to judge and make generalizations...not sure how that's going to help you in the long run.

I think a majority of ///M owners, only buy it because of the badging and not because it is any 'better'. Probably 90% of the people in the track forum could take an E30 318 and beat the typical E92 M3 driver on a road course.

What does that have to do with anything? I bet 90% of the people in the track forum could take an M3 and beat the typical 335i driver on a road course.

I don't see how one can claim that the interior of the ///M is going to be much better than the non-M series. The interiors will be relatively the same except for perhaps the seats and minor crap like steering wheel ///M logo, doorsills, shift knob (possibly), speedometer covering, and floor mats. It's not like the entire dash will be redone -- it will have a few 'extra's' to delineate that it is an ///M model, e.g., stickers to make people feel happy that they bought the ///M.

I'm pretty impressed with your ability to see the future.

A lot of ///M drivers, claim how awesome their car is -- but, i feel confident in saying that many of them -- probably even 90% of the ///M driver's on these boards have NO idea how to drive their cars. As a result, whether it has LSD, 400 hp, etc ... they don't know how to use it. Heck, most of them NEVER take their car onto a track (not 1320' -- road course or autocross), and a lot of them have never been on one; but, claim how superior they can drive over others.

Have you been to any forums composed of 335i owners? Even these so-called "enthusiasts" are the biggest pricks of all BMW owners, thanks to the easy-to-mod nature of their cars. I'm better 95% of these drivers haven't a clue how to driver their cars. Heck, I bet most 335i owners will only take their cars to the 1/4 mile, or else street race only. These 335i drivers claim how superior their cars are to all other BMWs.

Seriously, have you seen all the 335i vs E46 M3 debates? This is the first time IMO we've had BMW enthusiasts actually talking down another model of BMW.

Equal skills in driving -- 335i modded vs. E92 M3 -- but, take a person with better driving skills vs. typical E92 M3 owner (enthusiast), and 335i guy will walk the E92 M3 on a road course. Heck, I would bet a mini cooper S driver could outdrive the E92 M3 owner.

Ok? Take a person with better driving skills in a stock E92 M3 vs. a 400rwhp 335i with a typical owner and the E92 M3 will walk all over the 335i at the quarter mile. Or a road course.

The 335i has a much better torque curve (more useable area) -- and, for most people, would be a MUCH better car to daily drive and have fun with, than paying the additional price of the M3.

E92 M3 driver's -- IMO, will be ones that either:

a) buy it because it is an ///M and are a slave to having newest/coolest, hippest gadget to show off to people; or

b) actually track/drive the vehicle at a road course/autocross.

I would say 95% of the people fall under category A and 5% fall under category B. Then again, doesn't just apply to M3 owners, applies to Z06 vs. C6 owners, 997 tt vs. 997 owners, etc. If you've got the money -- then do it; but, if you want to be wise about your money -- perhaps the M3 is not what you are looking for. You might be better off buying an E46 M3 and keeping about $30K in your pockets ... :) .

What about 335i drivers?

a) Buy it because it is BMW and they have to flaunt their wealth in front of others; or

b)actually track/drive the vehicle



Basically, you're comparing drivers, not cars. Totally irrelevant. :confused

Wow.

You really know alot about a car that nothing other than the approx. HP has been released. You even know how its constructed, and how good its intake is.

Pretty much all of the logic in this thread is faulty based on nothing else then the fact that the car hasn't even be in any of your hands. Also, something you aren't taking into account is that the 335i's HP was downplayed by BMW. It is possible that the M3 will receive the same treatment.

True. All we can do is rely on the basic theories/principles/history that make internal engine components in a high strung NA car counterproductive in FI applications. There are always exceptions.

As far as BMW downplaying the n54's power, the only reason they did it was so that it wouldn't take away from the new M3 sales when it arrived. All they'd be doing by downplaying the hp in the new M would be handing sales to Audi. It wouldn't make sense for anyone to downplay the power in a top of the line sports car offering.

???

how is that statement laughable? Are you actually suggesting that BMW provides the best, or even a good, platform for extracting cheap hp per $ ? :confused

No need to be an ass....

No one is arguing that a BMW is the best platform for hp/$ mods. I think Honda has that title locked down. Bimmer tuners know that hp won't come cheap, regardless of which model they have. What we can say is that to get another 100-150hp out of a NA motor will cost you probably twice as much if not more than it would on a turbo motor.

No one is arguing that a BMW is the best platform for hp/$ mods. I think Honda has that title locked down.

???

Honda has the best HP per dollar??!???!


???!?!?!?

That's QFP, as it offers quite a bit of insight.


And for you guys that are so caught up on turbos...make sure and check out
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=656420


Wonder what HPF will wind up doing with the E92 M3....

???

Honda has the best HP per dollar??!???!


???!?!?!?

That's QFP, as it offers quite a bit of insight.


And for you guys that are so caught up on turbos...make sure and check out
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=656420


Wonder what HPF will wind up doing with the E92 M3....

You can buy a brand new civic and build it to 400 hp for under $20k. Give me another car you can do that with. And HPF is selling that kit for $16,000. That's not including everything you need to harness that power, suspension, brakes, clutch, etc. You're still over $25k+ all inclusive at the low end. And that's before labor.

You can buy a brand new civic and build it to 400 hp for under $20k. Give me another car you can do that with. And HPF is selling that kit for $16,000. That's not including everything you need to harness that power, suspension, brakes, clutch, etc. You're still over $25k+ all inclusive at the low end. And that's before labor.


Enjoy your honda.

Enjoy your honda.

Ha, it's a good thing you changed what you wrote two minutes ago. I was just about to quote it for longevity/stupidity.

Ha, it's a good thing you changed what you wrote two minutes ago. I was just about to quote it for longevity/stupidity.

I could rewrite it if you like. I didn't feel it appropriate to take a dig at such an easy target.

But seriously...back on topic.

You would prefer a 335 turbo because for $1k you can extract enough hp to equal what you anticipate the E92 M3 to produce.

I would prefer to wait for the car to actually be built, released, driven, reviewed, and assessed before I decide.

Point taken.

I could rewrite it if you like. I didn't feel it appropriate to take a dig at such an easy target.

But seriously...back on topic.

You would prefer a 335 turbo because for $1k you can extract enough hp to equal what you anticipate the E92 M3 to produce.

I would prefer to wait for the car to actually be built, released, driven, reviewed, and assessed before I decide.

Point taken.

Fair enough. We'll pick this up after the actual release.

On a side note, here's a crazy coincidence for you. My friends call me, "The mose man".

Nice thread and nice debate esp. MossMan/mose121. But here are some things you guys maybe did not consider in the great 335i+mods vs E92 M3 debate:

OK sure spend a lot (did anyone bother to include labor..) and maybe get close to the M3 but there is still a lot missing from this equation. It has been a bit beat to death on other forums but here it goes again... Note: If all you care about is 0-60 or 1/4 mi don' t bother to read the rest...

-You will be missing the chassis stiffness from seam as opposed to spot welds which is a fairly important factor in the feel of the car and its ability to let the suspension do it's job.

-Suspension: Unless you only want to beat an M3 at the dragstrip you should consider shocks, struts and sways. Perhaps all of the control arms as well which will probably be lighter/stiffer on the M (again based on history).

-Brakes: Spy photos indicate some nice brakes and rotors on the new M. Isn't really hard (fade and maintenance free) braking as fun as great acceleration?

-SMG: Whoops - that is almost impossible to retrofit without replacing the entire engine management software + + etc. etc. SMG, IMO, is a key part of the M experience. Along with SMG you get 7 speeds, close ratios, probably a shorter rear end ratio and an 8k+ redline, all very key "go fast " components (at least for track work).

-Interior (I guess ignore if all you care about is pure performance), esp. the M specific seats. How about those adjustable side bolsters during high g turns? I love the existing M3 seats and am sure the new ones will be quite a notch above the 335i.

-Steering: I'm sure the M will offer a different ratio and power assist, both of which will improve the feel and probably contribute (in a small way) to lap times.

-You all forgot body kit, again OOPS those lame aftermarket 335i kits will ONLY address looks and not down force at 175+ mph. I'll take factory CFD (computer fluid dynamics) and wind tunnel testing when I remove my limiter and probe the upper speed limit of my new M.

What would all of this cost+labor??

I like the 335i, they are especially gorgeous at night (no dis nor insult here) and I am glad it will provide a suitable platform for the M "boys" (engineers/designers) to do their thing. Even at a price neutral point the M3 will still win hands down as an overall GT (and yeah I know we don't have specs yet, but I'd still place $ on this).
Let's stop with the stock + $X dollars will win at the dragstrip, ugh. You can spend a lot less and go a lot faster than a 335i+software+etc.

Furthermore:

FI fans: Don't forget the need for larger intercoolers, and this is pretty pricey, no? I have also heard about stock 335is seriously "complaining" (shutting down?) at the track from overheating. Maybe you should add a bigger, better or 2nd oil cooler as well

mose121: The M5/M6 the most epxensive/premium Ms out there are significantly underrated for hp as well as the 335i. This engine is likely putting out 520-530 hp given it's performance and weight. I have also heard rumors that an "unrestricted" the engine can easily put out 600 hp. Also don't buy it at all that an E92 M3 will need more engine internals to reliably produce significantly more hp than a 335i. I would expect the exact opposite to be true. M3 will have a valve train, etc. capable of 600hp/8250 rpm. BMW absolutely does not have to design 335i internals for those conditions just because someone may make a chip and turbo that will produce that.

Great post...

Nice thread and nice debate esp. MossMan/mose121. But here are some things you guys maybe did not consider in the great 335i+mods vs E92 M3 debate:

OK sure spend a lot (did anyone bother to include labor..) and maybe get close to the M3 but there is still a lot missing from this equation. It has been a bit beat to death on other forums but here it goes again... Note: If all you care about is 0-60 or 1/4 mi don' t bother to read the rest...

I did mention + labor in a few of the posts. I work in service and am well aware of the expense involved. Just in case you missed those posts.

-You will be missing the chassis stiffness from seam as opposed to spot welds which is a fairly important factor in the feel of the car and its ability to let the suspension do it's job.

This is very true, but I strongly believe the 335 will handle 600hp without problems.

-Suspension: Unless you only want to beat an M3 at the dragstrip you should consider shocks, struts and sways. Perhaps all of the control arms as well which will probably be lighter/stiffer on the M (again based on history).

Definately true, and I discussed the necessity to upgrade the suspension to handle the extra power and improve handling.

-Brakes: Spy photos indicate some nice brakes and rotors on the new M. Isn't really hard (fade and maintenance free) braking as fun as great acceleration?

BMW brakes are always great. However, they are designed with a certain hp threshold in mind and can still be improved. Previous M cars have had great brakes for the street, but no so great for the track. That said, it's a street car and should be designed as such.

-SMG: Whoops - that is almost impossible to retrofit without replacing the entire engine management software + + etc. etc. SMG, IMO, is a key part of the M experience. Along with SMG you get 7 speeds, close ratios, probably a shorter rear end ratio and an 8k+ redline, all very key "go fast " components (at least for track work).

SMG might be slightly faster, but I'll always want a pedal on the left. You're so much more in tune with the car when driving a standard manual and have a much better feel for what the cars going to do when shifting.

-Interior (I guess ignore if all you care about is pure performance), esp. the M specific seats. How about those adjustable side bolsters during high g turns? I love the existing M3 seats and am sure the new ones will be quite a notch above the 335i.

I think the e90/92 sport seats do a great job. Probably just as good as any sport seat, even the M's. They just don't look at cool. Doesn't matter to me, I'm sticking with sparco's.

-Steering: I'm sure the M will offer a different ratio and power assist, both of which will improve the feel and probably contribute (in a small way) to lap times.

The ratio will definately be different. Add a M rack with all previously mentioned mods to the 335 and you're still under cost of the new M. The difference is prob. still 8-10k.

-You all forgot body kit, again OOPS those lame aftermarket 335i kits will ONLY address looks and not down force at 175+ mph. I'll take factory CFD (computer fluid dynamics) and wind tunnel testing when I remove my limiter and probe the upper speed limit of my new M.

You got me there. I'm not sure how often you'll have the oppurtunity to get over 145-150 unless your at the ring. But I have to agree with you.



FI fans: Don't forget the need for larger intercoolers, and this is pretty pricey, no? I have also heard about stock 335is seriously "complaining" (shutting down?) at the track from overheating. Maybe you should add a bigger, better or 2nd oil cooler as well

Intercoolers aren't too bad $$$ wise. And no one really knows when the stock one will become inadequate because no one's pushed the power that much yet. Oil cooler = $200-300, again not bad but also probably not totally needed with proper cool downs.

mose121: The M5/M6 the most epxensive/premium Ms out there are significantly underrated for hp as well as the 335i. This engine is likely putting out 520-530 hp given it's performance and weight. I have also heard rumors that an "unrestricted" the engine can easily put out 600 hp. Also don't buy it at all that an E92 M3 will need more engine internals to reliably produce significantly more hp than a 335i. I would expect the exact opposite to be true. M3 will have a valve train, etc. capable of 600hp/8250 rpm. BMW absolutely does not have to design 335i internals for those conditions just because someone may make a chip and turbo that will produce that.[/QUOTE]

Engine internals and heads for NA and FI motors differ greatly. Different flow characterists in the head work better for one and not so good for the other. NA cams = not good for FI. NA pistons (compression) not great for FI. Valvetrain on the M motors has a lot of overlap. That's not good for FI. The list goes on. I'm sure the new v8 will take some serious abuse and be an awesome motor. But it won't be a good platform for getting big hp increases from FI. I think a 600hp 335 will happen very soon, within a year of it's release. I bet we don't see a 600 hp m3 until 2010. Reason being, it's alot more complex. More time in R&D = higher prices. Getting 600hp reliably out of a new m3 is going to cost $25k+. Getting that same amount of power out of a 335 will cost half that if not less.

You don't have to track the vehicle at a road course/autocross to appreciate it.

I sure as hell won't be taking a $70K vehicle to the track.

I can understand your point of view. However, let me ask you a question, why buy an M3 for daily driving and on the street unless you are buying it to show off? (not that there is anything wrong with that).

You'll never approach the abilities of the car on the street: period, unless you are driving very aggressively. So, why would you spend all of that money for the M3 when a 335i, could do ALL of what the M3 could do in daily street driving?

The M3 doesn't really shine until you push it (drive it hard). I think the E46 330ci vs. M3 is not a fair comparison because of the power disparity between the two. However, take a 335i and M3 -- similar power levels, and, on the street - will handle similarly.

Now, if you want to go on the street and drive 60 mph around a sweeper, the M3 might be better planted ... but, you still run the danger of wiping out and, in this case of driving on the street, damaging property and/or hitting someone else. The track is a more controlled environment.

I am surprised you would lump autocross into the same category. Autocross is a venue where the M3 could really outshine the 335i with no chance of damaging your car (unless of course, a person really has no clue and runs into a light pole).

I am not saying everyone should take a $70K car to the track, many C6 and Z06 owners will never go to a road course; but, only to a 1320' track. However, if you are buying the M3 because of it's driving ability, you will be quickly humbled at the track when a 115 hp miata or mini cooper runs circles around you. The car does not make the driver, the driver makes the car. Many of the track driver's could take an ES300 and outdrive many M3 owners ... regardless of how great the M3 is ... It seems you take offense -- that, you think you are just as good of a driver, if not better than most people.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here regarding statements that it is a ///M and will be worth 15K more than a 335i: period.

I can understand your point of view. However, let me ask you a question, why buy an M3 for daily driving and on the street unless you are buying it to show off? (not that there is anything wrong with that).



OPTIONS.

And come on...show off? Most people don't even know what an M3 is...or care to know for that matter...

OPTIONS.

And come on...show off? Most people don't even know what an M3 is...or care to know for that matter...

I have to totally disagree with that statement. My 13 year old female cousin knows what a M3 is and she knows nothing about cars.

I can understand your point of view. However, let me ask you a question, why buy an M3 for daily driving and on the street unless you are buying it to show off? (not that there is anything wrong with that).

You'll never approach the abilities of the car on the street: period, unless you are driving very aggressively. So, why would you spend all of that money for the M3 when a 335i, could do ALL of what the M3 could do in daily street driving?

The M3 doesn't really shine until you push it (drive it hard). I think the E46 330ci vs. M3 is not a fair comparison because of the power disparity between the two. However, take a 335i and M3 -- similar power levels, and, on the street - will handle similarly.

Now, if you want to go on the street and drive 60 mph around a sweeper, the M3 might be better planted ... but, you still run the danger of wiping out and, in this case of driving on the street, damaging property and/or hitting someone else. The track is a more controlled environment.

I am surprised you would lump autocross into the same category. Autocross is a venue where the M3 could really outshine the 335i with no chance of damaging your car (unless of course, a person really has no clue and runs into a light pole).

I am not saying everyone should take a $70K car to the track, many C6 and Z06 owners will never go to a road course; but, only to a 1320' track. However, if you are buying the M3 because of it's driving ability, you will be quickly humbled at the track when a 115 hp miata or mini cooper runs circles around you. The car does not make the driver, the driver makes the car. Many of the track driver's could take an ES300 and outdrive many M3 owners ... regardless of how great the M3 is ... It seems you take offense -- that, you think you are just as good of a driver, if not better than most people.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here regarding statements that it is a ///M and will be worth 15K more than a 335i: period.

Believe what you will. :D

and I love how turbo junkies think that any car with a turbo is better than any na car.

They are more efficient, more powerful, and torquier. It puts more strain on the engine to increase it's revs compared to increasing boost. NA motors sound cooler though, IMO. In terms of raw performance (not cost), turbo's are better. They are a modder's dream too.

You don't have to track the vehicle at a road course/autocross to appreciate it.

I sure as hell won't be taking a $70K vehicle to the track.

Why not? Take your plates off (which you can do at a private track) and tjhe warranty guys can't get you. Be safe and you won't crash. Maintain your car normally and BMW quality should be more than enough to get it through many, many DE's.

You can appreciate the car, but you can never appreciate all its capabilities without seriously breaking the law and being seriously unsafe.

They are a modder's dream too.


Subjective.

The e30 M3 is the real M3 nothing elses needs to be said. Real M3s don't have cup holders.

your resale value should be higher on the M, right? Plus a lot of mechanics wont touch a modified 335 and many wont even be able to. Not to mention all the accessories that will come with the M that you won't get on the 335, if you care about them that is. But for the experienced tuner will probably have no problem with the 335. But for the average driver who wants their car serviced by the dealer would probably take the M.

Why are you guys arguing over a car that has not come out? Final specs of the new m3 will not be known untill its built. The m3 will have its own advantages that obviously we cant see because its not built yet...so speculate all you want. According to me the new m3 will have a twin turbo v8 that will produce 850 whp while running on water. <-----sarcasm. take that 335

wait til the m3 is released, then bicker.

the 335 is a hot car and has a hot aftermarket building...

the m3... hasnt disappointed in the past.

I love my car, but I think it will in no way compare to the new M3. The M's just allways have a different feel about them then the 3 series, and I'm sure it will be the same with the e90/1/2's

Great post...

I did mention + labor in a few of the posts. I work in service and am well aware of the expense involved. Just in case you missed those posts.

This is very true, but I strongly believe the 335 will handle 600hp without problems.

Definately true, and I discussed the necessity to upgrade the suspension to handle the extra power and improve handling.

BMW brakes are always great. However, they are designed with a certain hp threshold in mind and can still be improved. Previous M cars have had great brakes for the street, but no so great for the track. That said, it's a street car and should be designed as such.

SMG might be slightly faster, but I'll always want a pedal on the left. You're so much more in tune with the car when driving a standard manual and have a much better feel for what the cars going to do when shifting.

I think the e90/92 sport seats do a great job. Probably just as good as any sport seat, even the M's. They just don't look at cool. Doesn't matter to me, I'm sticking with sparco's.

The ratio will definately be different. Add a M rack with all previously mentioned mods to the 335 and you're still under cost of the new M. The difference is prob. still 8-10k.

OK lets start with a 335i at $43k base (base +sports seats +mandatory leather) and guess that the new M3 will be $58k base. You are telling me that for $5-7k ($8-10k difference remaining) you can get: wheels, tires, brakes, shocks, struts, sways, intercooler, oil cooler, vishnu flash, LSD, M3 steering rack, aero kit +and all labor? Not to be too harsh but I think you need to seriously take some math lessons! My super rough calcs are, $2.5k for wheels+tires, $3k brakes, $1.5k coilovers, $.5k sways, .5k intercooler, $.25k oil cooler, $1.5k vishnu, $2k LSD, $.75k steering rack, $1.5k aerokit. I then calculate $14k with no labor. I'd guess at least 35 hrs labor (MINIMUM) @ $75/hr (cheap) = $2.6k. OK, drum roll ... Grand total hopped up 335i = $60k. This vehicle almost for sure would not match an M3! Damn close and a great car, but still not a match, track or strip!

So again if you can wait for a Vishnu program +hardware to give the 335i 450 hp you will be able to out 0-60 and 1/4 mi an M3 for a lot less $ (and ultimately I suspect that is many folks main interest, maybe this is you, maybe not). But as an all around package the factory M3 will be less expensive and more reliable + full warranty.

if you take an e46 m3 for a drive, then you drive a 335i. You tell me which car feels better? I own an e46 and I got to go balls to the walls in a 335i. Flat out the e46m is a mans car compared to the 335i. Its all about how the clutch feels and how the car handles. I'm sorry but the 335i is just not as responsive as an M3. The m3 is like a sharpened xacto knife, the 335i felt like blunt force trauma on the top end with boring boaty suspension. The overall package just isnt there. People are so obsessed with 1/4 mile time bullshit, but the real fun lies in learning how to drive an M on the curves to the limit w/o ending up in a ditch.

OK lets start with a 335i at $43k base (base +sports seats +mandatory leather) and guess that the new M3 will be $58k base. You are telling me that for $5-7k ($8-10k difference remaining) you can get: wheels, tires, brakes, shocks, struts, sways, intercooler, oil cooler, vishnu flash, LSD, M3 steering rack, aero kit +and all labor? Not to be too harsh but I think you need to seriously take some math lessons! My super rough calcs are, $2.5k for wheels+tires, $3k brakes, $1.5k coilovers, $.5k sways, .5k intercooler, $.25k oil cooler, $1.5k vishnu, $2k LSD, $.75k steering rack, $1.5k aerokit. I then calculate $14k with no labor. I'd guess at least 35 hrs labor (MINIMUM) @ $75/hr (cheap) = $2.6k. OK, drum roll ... Grand total hopped up 335i = $60k. This vehicle almost for sure would not match an M3! Damn close and a great car, but still not a match, track or strip!

So again if you can wait for a Vishnu program +hardware to give the 335i 450 hp you will be able to out 0-60 and 1/4 mi an M3 for a lot less $ (and ultimately I suspect that is many folks main interest, maybe this is you, maybe not). But as an all around package the factory M3 will be less expensive and more reliable + full warranty.

At that point, we were discussing hp/$ mods, and how more hp could be more easily found and at a cheaper price for the 335 than the M3.

You could get an extra 100hp/tq from the 335 with less than $3000. You could never do that on a e46 M3, let alone the new e90/92. And yes, I believe for $15k total I could build a 335 that will rip on a stock e90/92 M when it arrives. And I'm not just talking about in a straight line. I never talk about that anyways. It's pointless to.

Different strokes for different folks. If we all wanted 1/4 miles and track times per $$ fun we'd buy freakin used Z06 corvettes or modded EVOs and STI's. If you want a modded 335 with a 6 and turbos for straight line thrust then fine. If you want an M3 for the high revving V8 and handling/looks then go for that. If you want to mod either then great but why sit and argue about it in multiple threads on difference subforums?

Wow, so many good points and just as many stubborn replies.

My two cents is that either person is a new bmw or european car buyer, (seeing as how either end result could be created with older models or different makes). One is a power junky without a ton of cash and the other is a ///M devotee.

Just the fact that this point is being argued tells me BMW has done something big with the 335. Any boost fanatic with experience could tell you that, though.

BMW is doing it right. Creating comotion amongst the hierarchy :) .
Seriously, damn they're good.

Before, there was never a doubt.
///M3 :)