I know a lot of you wont care, but a video is a video, and the lines are pretty close to what you'd run in a BMW..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7KvS6Hnbx4

This is in a 400rwhp Corvette on RA-1's. It's a street car. Other than slight motorwork, all it has done is a 4 wheel stoptech kit, sway bars, performance alignment, and some CCW's with RA-1 scrubs...

The lap time was 1:52.

Holy cow, dude. A little more speed carried into T1 & T2, and a couple of othe rplaces, and you'll be below 1:50.

Holy cow, dude. A little more speed carried into T1 & T2, and a couple of othe rplaces, and you'll be below 1:50.

Yeah, for some reason I was slow into T1 on that lap, on the other laps I'm flat down the transition in 5th gear, you can see i didnt use nearly all the track I could have in 2.. I'm not sure why I did that.. :embarrasm

T6 is also a problem area for me in that car, i couldnt get the car to tuck in and get to the apex.. I think some changes to the alignment are in order...

T6....I notice that you fully apex 5, then try to bring the car back to track right to set up for 6...but you don't fully get to the right before turn-in.

Since the Vette carries so much more speed than most other cars, I wonder what would happen if you displaced 5 slightly, allowing you to more fully drift all the way right for 6, so you can turn in with less steering angle & still get to the apex?

T6....I notice that you fully apex 5, then try to bring the car back to track right to set up for 6...but you don't fully get to the right before turn-in.

Since the Vette carries so much more speed than most other cars, I wonder what would happen if you displaced 5 slightly, allowing you to more fully drift all the way right for 6, so you can turn in with less steering angle & still get to the apex?

Well, that would help.. But I know a corvette is capable of apexing 5 and getting to the apex of 6.. Because My corvette would.. I ran faster in my vette than this one. This vette in particular has a slight push, which is probably good for the owner... hopefully some alignment changes we are making this weekend will fix the push..and help with tire wear.. Suprisingly, we are killing our front tires and the back tires are hardly working!

Since the Vette carries so much more speed than most other cars, I wonder what would happen if you displaced 5 slightly, allowing you to more fully drift all the way right for 6, so you can turn in with less steering angle & still get to the apex?

Last time I share secrets with you!! :mad

Seriously, I think that what Dave describes is the preferred line for most people. You have to get wide right going into 6 due to the dynamics of the asphalt, traction and turn or else you get pinched off (like one of DD's Code Brown moments) coming out of 6.

In the video you can see exiting turn 9 the car get a little sideways under throttle.. That was *almost* a code brown moment.. :P

Last time I share secrets with you!! :mad



Say what, princess? :D

Actually, this is the line all the DE's teach.. However, in my car, apexing 5 is actually faster.

How can that be a 1:52, Dave? The YouTube video timer shows apexing turn four at somewhere between 0:00 and 0:01, passing over the oval towards turn 4 at about 1:58 and hitting the turn 4 apex again at somwhere between 2:00 and 2:01. That makes it a 2:00 to 2:01 lap ... a FAR cry from 1:52.

UNLESS, of course, you use fast forward!

How can that be a 1:52, Dave? The YouTube video timer shows apexing turn four at somewhere between 0:00 and 0:01, passing over the oval towards turn 4 at about 1:58 and hitting the turn 4 apex again at somwhere between 2:00 and 2:01. That makes it a 2:00 to 2:01 lap ... a FAR cry from 1:52.

UNLESS, of course, you use fast forward!

I used a stopwatch from start/finish to start/finish on the first full lap and I got a 1:52.xxx Not the best way to time, but close... It appeared Ryan was taking it easy when the video first started. I didn't start timing until he got to the line.

How can that be a 1:52, Dave? The YouTube video timer shows apexing turn four at somewhere between 0:00 and 0:01, passing over the oval towards turn 4 at about 1:58 and hitting the turn 4 apex again at somwhere between 2:00 and 2:01. That makes it a 2:00 to 2:01 lap ... a FAR cry from 1:52.

UNLESS, of course, you use fast forward!

I wasnt driving.

so the video timeline is incorrect?

trust me ... that ain't no 1:52

I didn't start timing until he got to the line.
OK ... I did the same and came up with 1:53. I was timing from the beginning of the video and back to that point ... SF-to-SF is a better lap time.

Nice lap.

why such a low line into T1, vette bottom out higher? Interesting entry to T13 too, I would have thought with the vette a wider entry would be faster, rather than hugging the curb.

so the video timeline is incorrect?

trust me ... that ain't no 1:52

Steve:

Start/Finish to Start/Finish: 1:27 to 3:19

Translates to a 1:52 lap.

Do the subtraction yourself.

why such a low line into T1, vette bottom out higher? Interesting entry to T13 too, I would have thought with the vette a wider entry would be faster, rather than hugging the curb.

Sean, he is a karter. He believes in driving significantly fewer feet. It has its merits if you have gobs of HP and 345 tires...

why such a low line into T1, vette bottom out higher? Interesting entry to T13 too, I would have thought with the vette a wider entry would be faster, rather than hugging the curb.

What's more beneficial? Going fast between 13 and 14, or going fast between 14 and exiting 15? :cool

How can that be a 1:52, Dave? The YouTube video timer shows apexing turn four at somewhere between 0:00 and 0:01, passing over the oval towards turn 4 at about 1:58 and hitting the turn 4 apex again at somwhere between 2:00 and 2:01. That makes it a 2:00 to 2:01 lap ... a FAR cry from 1:52.

UNLESS, of course, you use fast forward!

You're right dude, your math is > everyone elses. I guess I should strap you to my hood instead of my Longacre Hot lap that has read anywhere from 1:54's to 1:51's.. :devillook

why such a low line into T1, vette bottom out higher? Interesting entry to T13 too, I would have thought with the vette a wider entry would be faster, rather than hugging the curb.

It bottoms out and the corner radius is quite a few HUNDRED shorter. In a car with power (ie not a momentum car) this is very beneficial as the decreased traveling distance out weighs the corner speed.

What's more beneficial? Going fast between 13 and 14, or going fast between 14 and exiting 15? :cool

i think we both agree exit on 15 is most important, but i think you can carry more speed into 13 by going wider and later, rather than carving.

I agree cutting distance is very important in a powerful car, but I also think the fact that you are not WOT(sounds like it on the video) after the transition to the turn in point for T1, makes me think there is more speed to carry and with a deep line into 1 you can carry that speed farther, rather than cutting the corner.

video does make TWS look very easy with power.

I've tried both the high and low entry into T1 and it seems like 6 of one and half-a-dozen the other. I carry more speed going high, but the extra distance seems to make it just about as quick as the low entry. I'm a little more comfortable with the high entry, so maybe there's some more time to be had the other way. Bill K sure as hell makes it work down low.

Sean, I already gave Ryan crap about giving up speed into T1. He acknowledged that he sort of pussed out on that lap. I am guessing that he left at least a second on the table there alone. ;)

Martin, I am sort of with Bill K on this one. Personally, I prefer the line-up for T2 you get by taking the high line, but--at least in both of my cars--I am much faster down low, and also the transition is MUCH less brutal.

JMHO.

Yep. That pretty much seems like the trade-off.

Down low seems like a better place to be in a race anyway. I know at one of the NASA races in August I picked up a few spots going into 1 & 2 after the start when most people went high.

Yep. That pretty much seems like the trade-off.

Down low seems like a better place to be in a race anyway. I know at one of the NASA races in August I picked up a few spots going into 1 & 2 after the start when most people went high.


IMO, they key there is waiting, and staying on WOT, before getting on the brakes.

When I teach the low line to advanced students, their tempation is to get on the brakes pretty much as soon as they cross the track out apron. IMO, it is much better to keep on accelerating until at least after you cross over the blend line. It is flat, the car will be fully settled, and you can really carry a lot of speed in that way. In addition, from the bottom of the banking to the apex of T2, the track rises by 16 FEET OF ELEVATION. I schit thee not. So gravity will aid braking.

But the only way you will get a competitive advantage is by getting back to the line tor T2 ahead of the other guy, and then controlling his exit.

I know at one of the NASA races in August I picked up a few spots going into 1 & 2 after the start when most people went high.

Martin, what is NASA like down here? (not to fan the flame on the BMW club's lack of races at TWS).

Repost, but here's my view of Riley and Garrity doing battle last time we were at TWS...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pmh0keLtQw

Repost, but here's my view of Riley and Garrity doing battle last time we were at TWS...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pmh0keLtQw

You just had to relive that one...didn't ya!! :(

In hindsight, maybe I should have 13/13'ed Sean on that one. :devillook

LOL....hey, now...PS failure is a biatch.

In hindsight, maybe I should have 13/13'ed Sean on that one.

Nah... I need him for a buffer between me and you. ;)

i think we both agree exit on 15 is most important, but i think you can carry more speed into 13 by going wider and later, rather than carving.

I agree cutting distance is very important in a powerful car, but I also think the fact that you are not WOT(sounds like it on the video) after the transition to the turn in point for T1, makes me think there is more speed to carry and with a deep line into 1 you can carry that speed farther, rather than cutting the corner.

video does make TWS look very easy with power.

K, go wide in 13, and get passed under braking.. :D

Ryan, I think his point has more to do with what is ultimately faster, when timing laps, rather than what line is best to defend a position.

Ryan, I think his point has more to do with what is ultimately faster, when timing laps, rather than what line is best to defend a position.

Yeah, and I'm talking about DE racing.. what's your point? :D :devillook

I still dont think a wider line is faster in 13.. even the apex of 13 is extremely late when going CW.. I'll try both ways next time, but that's the line I taught my self and it seems to work well in a vette.. The car has too much entry speed to properly set up 14 if you are wide in 13..

Ryan, I think his point has more to do with what is ultimately faster, when timing laps, rather than what line is best to defend a position.

As long as you start and stop timing at the same point, then it's irrelevant, no? If we want to be official, then the "real" start finish line should be the timing point used. Since most people with timers set the beam there anyways. Again, I'm stating the obvious since I'm good at that. :buttrock

Dat
Hook 'Em!

Yeah, and I'm talking about DE racing.. what's your point? :D :devillook

I still dont think a wider line is faster in 13.. even the apex of 13 is extremely late when going CW.. I'll try both ways next time, but that's the line I taught my self and it seems to work well in a vette.. The car has too much entry speed to properly set up 14 if you are wide in 13..

LOL..

Yeah, I think you are correct, but the only way to be sure would be getting segment time data on back to back CLEAN laps, I guess.

You just had to relive that one...didn't ya!! :(

In hindsight, maybe I should have 13/13'ed Sean on that one. :devillook

I still say go for the 13/13 :D

just be careful on 3. i slid off track and rolled there because i thought there was more track to be had at the track out point. I gave too much steering input to miss the cones and before i knew it i was sideways. I was watching your vid and noticed that as you were going over the hump there i heard the revs jump. was that because youre wheels lost a little traction for a second? Just remember there isnt as much track to be had as it seems, i dont want anybody making the same mistake i did. :nono

Martin, what is NASA like down here? (not to fan the flame on the BMW club's lack of races at TWS).

Repost, but here's my view of Riley and Garrity doing battle last time we were at TWS...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pmh0keLtQw

Might be a TWS race or two in the works this season with Houston Chapter BMWCCA from what I hear.

NASA is fun. Good group of people, easy to deal with, and as long as they don't try to run a bazillion race groups like they did in August, the events go smoothly. GTS and GPC have been running with CMC and AI, so the field is ~30 cars, which I find to be a lot of fun. Not as much of that lonely feeling I get at a BMW club race after the cars get strung out after a few laps.

They usually stagger the starts for AI/CMC and GTS, so everything is pretty sane. The AI/CMC guys are all cool from what I've seen; we give each other room and stay out of each other's class battles. I'm probably going to try to make around 6 of the 8-9 NASA races in Texas next season.

I'm probably going to try to make around 6 of the 8-9 NASA races in Texas next season.

8-9 races in Texas, huh? :devillook

You just had to relive that one...didn't ya!! :(

In hindsight, maybe I should have 13/13'ed Sean on that one. :devillook

I know, painful :(

probably should have :D


Nah... I need him for a buffer between me and you. ;)

leave me out of your homo erotic fantasies


K, go wide in 13, and get passed under braking.. :D

i'm glad that you know your place is behind me. :alright

This is a DE setting, you wouldn't be going under anyone in T13. DE line vs. race line is a very different thing, you know this Ryan.

Sorry, no. DE line is race line.. That's how i won the DE event.. IDIOT.

ouch

http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/crikey.jpg

.

8-9 races in Texas, huh? :devillook

I'm wrong. There are only 6 races on the schedule.

Here's the schedule: http://www.nasatx.com/main.asp

The April race in Eagle's Canyon conflicts with the BMWCCA one in Cresson, so I'm going to have to flip a coin on that one.

I'm wrong. There are only 6 races on the schedule.

Here's the schedule: http://www.nasatx.com/main.asp

The April race in Eagle's Canyon conflicts with the BMWCCA one in Cresson, so I'm going to have to flip a coin on that one.

Jeez I wish there were more race cars for rent.. :(

Jeez I wish there were more race cars for rent.. :(

Mine is for rent.

Oh really? PM me..

cough cough...COLLISION DAMAGE WAIVER...cough cough

I'm going to TWS soon I guess. I cant stay at MSR forever.

cough cough...COLLISION DAMAGE WAIVER...cough cough

Yeah, when I run up the back of SG_M3.. we're going to have to have some pre-determined agreement!! ;) ;) ;)

Just kidding, I am extremely docile while driving machinery that isnt mine.. Sheesh.

Hell, I take go karts out that arent mine, and I stiill only drive them 8/10ths.. and they only cost a few hundred dollars to repair.. not a few thousand!! :D

I'm going to TWS soon I guess. I cant stay at MSR forever.

I like TWS better than MSRH.. Your car would probably run extremely well at TWS!! Look forward to meeting you and seeing your car in action.

just be careful on 3. i slid off track and rolled there because i thought there was more track to be had at the track out point. I gave too much steering input to miss the cones and before i knew it i was sideways. I was watching your vid and noticed that as you were going over the hump there i heard the revs jump. was that because youre wheels lost a little traction for a second? Just remember there isnt as much track to be had as it seems, i dont want anybody making the same mistake i did.

Adham, I saw the spot where your car started the roll - did you clear that drainage ditch? Ouch!

You can't have any lateral accel/force on your car going over that hump after trackout on 3, or......you know the answer.....

I think he landed in the ditch...

here are his pics link (http://hinzm3.com/adham/)

I'm going to TWS soon I guess. I cant stay at MSR forever.

You ought to come out Dec 16 & 17. Shouldn't be too crowded and I'd be happy to take you out for some recon laps Sat morning in my street car. I hear there's free bbq Saturday afternoon as well.

I'd like to hear your impressions on who has the best bbq, MSRH or TWS. Your guy is pretty good, but Luis here at TWS does a mean brisket when he puts his mind to it.

You ought to come out Dec 16 & 17. Shouldn't be too crowded and I'd be happy to take you out for some recon laps Sat morning in my street car. I hear there's free bbq Saturday afternoon as well.

I'd like to hear your impressions on who has the best bbq, MSRH or TWS. Your guy is pretty good, but Luis here at TWS does a mean brisket when he puts his mind to it.

Everyone likes free.. :redspot

I like TWS better than MSRH.. Your car would probably run extremely well at TWS!! Look forward to meeting you and seeing your car in action.

+ Juan

I think he landed in the ditch...

here are his pics link (http://hinzm3.com/adham/index.htm)

Only student of mine who has ever done that... :(

Yeah, when I run up the back of SG_M3.. we're going to have to have some pre-determined agreement!! ;) ;) ;)


bring it biatch...especially if you are in riley's car.

bring it biatch...especially if you are in riley's car.

The sad thing is I'd probably have to rent it twice, once for a DE and once for a race, so I can figure the car out.. Although I'm usually pretty good about getting in a car and going fast in it right away, I'd want to be especially fast in it, just for you.. :D

Not sad for Riley.

Wait 'til you see his price.

Not sad for Riley.

Wait 'til you see his price.

lol.

Ok MR Greg, I got a G2X.. What do you want me to do with it? :lol

Ok MR Greg, I got a G2X.. What do you want me to do with it? :lol

Gesture wildly?

http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/fmj1.jpg

Gesture wildly?

http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/fmj1.jpg

Man I wish I could afford to get in the drivers seat of one of those :mad

Same here.

Ok MR Greg, I got a G2X.. What do you want me to do with it? :lol
Use it??? :confused

Use it??? :confused

THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!

http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/werd-dog.jpg

Man I wish I could afford to get in the drivers seat of one of those :mad

A helluva lot cheaper that a Viper...and you can write a check for one of those, right?

snort.

Man I wish I could afford to get in the drivers seat of one of those :mad

Me too!! Can't afford one of those rides, but looking into maybe doing a drive in a GS M3 as a second driver some time later this year. Mid-Ohio would be nice.. Maybe wishful thinking, but gotta try...:D

A helluva lot cheaper that a Viper...and you can write a check for one of those, right?

snort.


It's called budgeting.. You should look into it, then your racing might be more sucessful. :D


Hmm.. $12k for a weekend in a GAC car.. or $12 for 3 weekends in a skippy car?

Hmm.. 80k for a viper.. Or $80k for a full season of skippy and karting.. :devillook

Ryan, just so you know, the car pictured is a Rolex GT car. Costs a helluva lot more than $12K to rent a seat for a weekend.

$12K is more like what it costs to rent a seat in a top-notch Grand Am Cup GS car like a 997, Mustang FR500, or even an M3.

And remember, that is PER DRIVER, and there are 2 drivers.

Ryan, just so you know, the car pictured is a Rolex GT car. Costs a helluva lot more than $12K to rent a seat for a weekend.

$12K is more like what it costs to rent a seat in a top-notch Grand Am Cup GS car like a 997, Mustang FR500, or even an M3.

And remember, that is PER DRIVER, and there are 2 drivers.

Re-read my post.. Where I said.. "Hmm.. $12k for a weekend in a GAC car.. or $12 for 3 weekends in a skippy car?" ;)

Ah...right you are.

FYI, ST cars go for a lot less in GAC.

A lot less .. being... $6k ? The track time/dollar amount still doenst come anywhere close to that of the "cookie cutter" programs with skippy or jim russell. :-/

It depends on the team & the car, and the level of pimpitude you want (catered lunches, motorhome, etc. vs. trailer & buy your own lunch, for example). It also depends on how many sets of tires you want ot use. Some guys go out on new Hoosiers for every session. Personally, I think this is moronic, but if ya got the bank, it's available.

You ought to come out Dec 16 & 17. Shouldn't be too crowded and I'd be happy to take you out for some recon laps Sat morning in my street car. I hear there's free bbq Saturday afternoon as well.

I'd like to hear your impressions on who has the best bbq, MSRH or TWS. Your guy is pretty good, but Luis here at TWS does a mean brisket when he puts his mind to it.

I wish I could take you up on that. I'll be in Florida that weekend. I'm moving to Texas soon but it will be after the first of the year. Anyway you could come out to MSR on Sunday. My bubby who is the partial quad is coming out from florida to ride around the track with me. I would love for him to meet you and your wife. If you want to drive that day I can use a quest day for you to drive I think. Let me know.

It depends on the team & the car, and the level of pimpitude you want (catered lunches, motorhome, etc. vs. trailer & buy your own lunch, for example). It also depends on how many sets of tires you want ot use. Some guys go out on new Hoosiers for every session. Personally, I think this is moronic, but if ya got the bank, it's available.

How about a grilled cheese and fries from the snack bar.. A set of used tires and crewing on the car while not driving...:)

Mmmmm.......


Grilled cheese.............................

Grilled cheese rules.