As winter sets in, my brain starts thinking about what I should build for next season. I had talked myself into selling everything and buying/building a mildly modded E46M3....however the 'evil' part of my brain keeps thinking what a bitchin' E30M3 I could build for $35k....

So anyhow, can someone quantify exactly the cause and effect of the e30's supposed 'inferior' rear suspension.

I've heard this repeated often on the boards (and I know MAkard is going to disagree :)) but I don't quite understand why, what it effects, or how to correct it (short of back halving the car). To the dismay of the 'purists', I'm thinking of building a twin screw'd, aluminum block, M/S50 E30M3 for autox/hpde/tt use.

- Am I going to squander all that power by not being able to put it down effectively?
- Most tire I can stuff under the rear bodywork
- any reinforcements needed to trailing arms?

(and yes I realize that much hp is verging on 'too much', but after tracking/autox'ing a stock e30m3, a 'stock' 95m3, a supercharged m3, a euro s50'd m3, and a turbo m3.... under 300whp is 'boring')

It is heavy, hard to align, and has pretty damn awful camber control. It also has a very high leverage ratio, so you need a very stiff rear spring to get a high wheel rate.

My advice: Drive a 300hp e30 and see how you like it before you blow a fat wad of cash on one.

It is heavy, hard to align, and has pretty damn awful camber control. It also has a very high leverage ratio, so you need a very stiff rear spring to get a high wheel rate.

My advice: Drive a 300hp e30 and see how you like it before you blow a fat wad of cash on one.

A: It is not heavy I sponsor an E30 M3 and he weighs in at 2200 lbs.

B: Hard to align? Not true for a track car, CC plates and AKG motosports rear adjusters and you're in high cotton.

C: Camber control? please explain.. I get 3.6deg front and 3.0deg rear (I prob don't understand your comment)

D: Why do you need a high wheel rate at 2200 to 2400 lbs? I run 700lb rear and the setup is VERY fast. The car we ran at the 25hrs of T-Hill had 850lb springs, some E36's run 800 to 1000lb springs

My advice you don't need 300hp to enjoy an E30. I have 200hp and ask anyone who has taken a ride in it, the car is a blast. You may not be old enough to remember this, "If you can't go fast in an E30, you can't go fast."

I am a bit biased so my answers need to be taken with a shaker of salt. Long term I agree that the rear suspension leaves a bit to be desired. I am going to box in my hub carriers to mitigate high load camber change.


EDIT: 225/45r15 on 15x7.5 Ronal LS's and you have to space out the front 5mm. The rear inner fender has a bit of a bump that you can hammer down then roll the fenders.. no rubbing for me.

rear trailing arms are primative incomparison to the e36/e46

very true about the stiff rear end. I have a grp. n suspension I'm selling and the rear rates are 1143 :eek:

you can fit tires in the rear no problem. its up front that sucks. I have 235/40/17's on with a GC setup and it rubs up the wazzo! tire is tearing up my brand new evo fender liners. even an e36 can fit a lot of meet up front. a 35k e30 would be one hell of a project car. I'd be interested to see it but I think the money could be much more effectively spent. a 35k e46 m3 is more like a stock m3. I'd go with an e36. even I'm going to get an e36 again... but that doesn't mean i'll ever get rid of the e30 :devillook

A: It is not heavy I sponsor an E30 M3 and he weighs in at 2200 lbs.

B: Camber control? please explain.. I get 3.6deg front and 3.0deg rear (I prob don't understand your comment)

C: Why do you need a high wheel rate at 2200 to 2400 lbs? I run 700lb rear and the setup is VERY fast. The car we ran at the 25hrs of T-Hill had 850lb springs, some E36's run 800 to 1000lb springs

My advice you don't need 300hp to enjoy an E30. I have 200hp and ask anyone who has taken a ride in it, the car is a blast. You may not be old enough to remember this, "If you can't go fast in an E30, you can't go fast."

I am a bit biased so my answers need to be taken with a shaker of salt. Long term I agree that the rear suspension leaves a bit to be desired. I am going to box in my hub carriers to mitigate high load camber change.


EDIT: 225/45r15 on 15x7.5 Ronal LS's and you have to space out the front 5mm. The rear inner fender has a bit of a bump that you can hammer down then roll the fenders.. no rubbing for me.

I believe he meant the change in camber during compression of the suspension, compared to a multi-link rear setup. I am not very familiar with suspension physics, so I can't really comment on this, but I think that's what he referred to.

You should be able to fit a 245 R-comp on the car (maybe not Hoosier's bc 245 Hoosiers are probably closer to 265!)

As mentioned, you shouldn't need 300whp to enjoy an E30 on-track! Mine has about 280 and I'd probably be just as fast around CMP with 200-225hp.

A: It is not heavy I sponsor an E30 M3 and he weighs in at 2200 lbs.


He means the suspension components themselves are a little on the massive side for the size/weight of the car.


C: Camber control? please explain.. I get 3.6deg front and 3.0deg rear (I prob don't understand your comment)



He's referring to the camber curves/gain when the suspension travels due to being loaded.

You can build a very clean basic E46 M3 clubracer for 35k, but it will be very basic.

The motor will be the biggest expense, but it depends if its a mod class car, or DE , prepared, etc.

Don't let the fact that it is an E46 turn you away (many people think if its e46 it must be expensive, I can show you some 6 figure e30's that put msot clubracing e46's to shame in the cost department). Fact is that it has substantially more potential than an e30.

With the same driver, it'll take a lot of development and $ to make an e30 as fast as an equally prepared e46.

I'm building a Mod e46 m3 on a budget, and doing everything myself obviously saves most of the cash most people spend for a shop to do it, but its your call.

You can run 280 tires all around with Stock body work. Stock brake size is more than adequate.

No Doubt e30 is a great car, and this post hopefully won't turn into an akard e30 debate (he's in enough debates as it is haha sorry Mike I had to), but the E46 is for many reasons faster and has tons more potential.

The speed Scott/Ralph Warren are getting out of the prepared E46 m3 should be a pretty good sign of what a good driver and simple prepared setup can get you. Now drop a ton of weight, slap on bigger slicks, better suspension, better aero, and you get the point.

This past weekend Carl Lagoni with his Evosport E46 M3 CM knocked another second off the Willowsprings track record.

C: Camber control? please explain.. I get 3.6deg front and 3.0deg rear (I prob don't understand your comment)


I think he means the semi-trailing arm design has a lousy camber curve as it moves up and down. Personally, I find that's what makes the car so fun to drive and so responsive to suspension tweaks.

But yes, with rear eccentric adjusters, it isn't the easiest setup to align.

B: Hard to align? Not true for a track car, CC plates and AKG motosports rear adjusters and you're in high cotton.


Still a pain to get to compared to multi-link on an E36. Plus you generally do not get 100% independent adjustment of camber and toe with a semi-trailing arm suspension


C: Camber control? please explain.. I get 3.6deg front and 3.0deg rear (I prob don't understand your comment)


There is just massive camber gain with semi-trailing arm suspensions when compressed. Not to mention the loss of camber and toe-out that occurs when one lifts off the throttle; thus the tail happy nature of the E30 (which is why they are so freakin' fun!)


D: Why do you need a high wheel rate at 2200 to 2400 lbs? I run 700lb rear and the setup is VERY fast. The car we ran at the 25hrs of T-Hill had 850lb springs, some E36's run 800 to 1000lb springs

Again, comparatively to the multi-link on the E36/E346, you will require a litlte more spring to get the same wheel rate on an E30 due to the spring being mounted so far inboard.


My advice you don't need 300hp to enjoy an E30. I have 200hp and ask anyone who has taken a ride in it, the car is a blast. You may not be old enough to remember this, "If you can't go fast in an E30, you can't go fast."

I concur!

He means the suspension components themselves are a little on the massive side for the size/weight of the car.



I was originally going to say the same thing, though when I think about it I think the weight difference is minimal at best.

I believe he meant the change in camber during compression of the suspension, compared to a multi-link rear setup. I am not very familiar with suspension physics, so I can't really comment on this, but I think that's what he referred to.

You're probably correct but how many of us can really tell the difference anyway? My rear suspnesion prob travels less than 3" during an entire lap. Not much camber change there.

As mentioned, you shouldn't need 300whp to enjoy an E30 on-track! Mine has about 280 and I'd probably be just as fast around CMP with 200-225hp.

280, 300... :)

You're probably correct but how many of us can really tell the difference anyway? My rear suspnesion prob travels less than 3" during an entire lap. Not much camber change there.

You'd be surprised how much of a difference small suspension design changes can make on e36/e36/e46's. Its what makes the cars go fast :D

Just like engine tuning, its easy to make a car slower, and a lot harder to make it faster. Thankfully there is a science behind everything, and it can all be engineered, its not a guessing game.

RichV: I agree but I will pit my E30 against an E36 anytime. Most of us can't tell the difference one way or the other. Lack of HP down the straights is the ONLY advantage it will have over mine. I chased my friends PREPPED E36M3 around T-Hill for 4 laps and he could not get away from me. BTW he kicks my rear when we go karting, he is a better driver. IMHO lb for lb $ for $ the E30 is still the best thing going. But, like I said I am a bit biased... some people still love the AMC Pacer so....

EDIT: The E30 is going in for some MAJOR MAJOR engine upgrades, 300 to 400hp will be on tap next year. I will be the next HPDE champion come hell or high water!!

RichV: I agree but I will pit my E30 against an E36 anytime. Most of us can't tell the difference one way or the other. Lack of HP down the straights is the ONLY advantage it will have over mine. I chased my friends PREPPED E36M3 around T-Hill for 4 laps and he could not get away from me. BTW he kicks my rear when we go karting, he is a better driver. IMHO lb for lb $ for $ the E30 is still the best thing going. But, like I said I am a bit biased... some people still love the AMC Pacer so....

EDIT: The E30 is going in for some MAJOR MAJOR engine upgrades, 300 to 400hp will be on tap next year. I will be the next HPDE champion come hell or high water!!

Bring it on baby, bring it on! :D ;)

I still miss my E30's...I need to find another. I would completely agree that the E30 is one of the most enjoyable (and quick) cars both on and off the track. However, I think the E36 has proven itself superior in most situations despite the weight penalty.

RichV: I agree but I will pit my E30 against an E36 anytime. Most of us can't tell the difference one way or the other. Lack of HP down the straights is the ONLY advantage it will have over mine. I chased my friends PREPPED E36M3 around T-Hill for 4 laps and he could not get away from me. BTW he kicks my rear when we go karting, he is a better driver. IMHO lb for lb $ for $ the E30 is still the best thing going. But, like I said I am a bit biased... some people still love the AMC Pacer so....

EDIT: The E30 is going in for some MAJOR MAJOR engine upgrades, 300 to 400hp will be on tap next year. I will be the next HPDE champion come hell or high water!!


so then your answer to the guy who created the thread is:

YES!!!! BUILD A 300HP E30!!!!:devillook

or do you not want competition? ;)

Bring it on baby, bring it on! :D ;)

I still miss my E30's...I need to find another. I would completely agree that the E30 is one of the most enjoyable (and quick) cars both on and off the track. However, I think the E36 has proven itself superior in most situations despite the weight penalty.


You can drive it next year if you want to... :devillook There is nothing wrong with an E36, heck I have one that I am sinking way too much of my E30 engine $$ into :)

BTW I have a 1991 318is shell that only needs a radiator support... It is free to a good home..

so then your answer to the guy who created the thread is:

YES!!!! BUILD A 300HP E30!!!!:devillook

or do you not want competition? ;)

Oh yes... BTW your avatar is sooooo disturbing. :shifty

My car has around 200hp and weighs in at 2450lbs. It is an absolute rocket... ask anyone who has seen or ridden in it. The car is simply a blast and I am into it for very little money. All I need is a pair of snails and a standalone...

BTW I have a 1991 318is shell that only needs a radiator support... It is free to a good home..

I might just take you up on that.... :D

Others have pretty much made all my points. I'm posting this from my phone so I can't copy in a link, but a gent named Gustave has a GREAT website that shows a ton of details about the e30 rear suspension, including camber and toe curves and leverage ratios. I can never remember the URL so I just google "gustave m3" and its the first hit or so.

Keep in mind I have a e30 myself, so I wouldn't bash on them without reason. :stickoutt

My car weighs 2300lbs wet with out me in it, last year had 240whp was fun as hell but an equaly preped e36 should be easier to drive then my car. Next year I'll have 270whp be about 100lbs lighter and its gonna be even more of a handful. A e36 is easier and should be faster but im a glutton for punishment so round headlight cars are for me.

btw on my old non m 245's on 16 fit fine (ra-1) and on my new car 245 ho hoos fit with a stock rear fender and a group a carbon kevlar front fenders (wider and bigger cut outs) and much more can be fit up front but the rear is maxed out. I'm also planning on redesigning the rear suspension next season if all goes well over the upcomming year so I can eliminate the shitty stock set up.

You'd be surprised how much of a difference small suspension design changes can make on e36/e36/e46's. Its what makes the cars go fast :D

Just like engine tuning, its easy to make a car slower, and a lot harder to make it faster. Thankfully there is a science behind everything, and it can all be engineered, its not a guessing game.

Pssshhh. We don't need any enginering... Bolt ons will make our cars faster! Big sway bars for everybody! Wider tires!!! :D

Others have pretty much made all my points. I'm posting this from my phone so I can't copy in a link, but a gent named Gustave has a GREAT website that shows a ton of details about the e30 rear suspension, including camber and toe curves and leverage ratios. I can never remember the URL so I just google "gustave m3" and its the first hit or so.

Keep in mind I have a e30 myself, so I wouldn't bash on them without reason. :stickoutt

I was reading his tech articles and mod reviews a year before I bought my car. very informative
http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/index.htm

and about the avatar, I've received that same comment with the word disturbing in it at least 20 times lol

Pssshhh. We don't need any enginering... Bolt ons will make our cars faster! Big sway bars for everybody! Wider tires!!! :D

Got that right.. all an E30 needs to go fast is a big hammer and a prybar.

Engineering? bruhahahahaha!!

I'm going to bed in a minute, or else I'd go on a big tirade about my love hate relationship with the E30, and especially it's rear end.

Suffice to say, as crappy as the camber curve is, the toe curve is even lamer. The semi trailing arms are not particularly rigid in the way they mount to the subframe, or in the way the subframe mounts to the body, and they are pretty big in the unsprung weight department.

Add to that the pile of goo that is the E30 unibody, and you get a very "interesting" handling car. Fun though. :D

some people like driving a pile of goo :D

Personally I plan to learn how to properly drive on the e30 as best I can, and then move to better cars later. the harder it is to drive and the slower it goes the better (for now)

although as we can see the e30 is no slouch

Rich, Walter, quit the smack talk and get your damn licenses already, that way I'll have more spots between my SpecE30 and DFL. ;-)

My first BMW was an E30 M3 and I loved it. But take away the emotional attachment that a lot of people have and have displayed here and the E36 really is better. You could put the same weight E30 up against an E36, both with an E36 5 lug front and brakes and M50 conversion and givem the same driver, the E36 will beat it every time. Thats just the facts.

BMW rarely goes backwards in engineering and as much as I love the E30, and the E36, and the rewarmed E46, the E90 is another step forward. Ime semi modified trim like a club racer, you can see the progression through the models.

I am not saying E30s are incompitent at all. We finally managed to get Bassen's E30 S50B32 car to stick flat on the uphill esses at VIR and that is one of the wildest rides you can take. But apples to apples, E36 will be better. Plus, given a $35k budget, I could build a stellar E30, E36 or E46 club car - certainly given the choice I would start with an E36 325 platform for bang for the buck, go turbo and big suspension and brakes.

E30 is an adaquate platform :) Mine has about 325 fly HP from a euro S50B30 engine, running 8000+ RPM.

The suspenstion in the rear is not as modern as on the E36 M3, but with very stiff race suspention to keep it in control the camber curves arent really bothering me. We used E30 M3 suspention parts in the rear, and fitted a true coilover instead of the separate shock and spring which is a nice improvement but one thing is that it's advised to reinforce the rear shocktowers.

It weighs about 2500 lbs, but that's with regular glass, dashboard and bodypanels. Interior removed, but the engine, brakes, 17" wheels and cage add some extra weight. All the other stuff is still in place because it still a registered verhicle so it has to pass MOT.

I like the steering feel from my E36 M3 somewhat better, and it has a lot more brakepressure. But that's about it.

paintpro21: My E30 was built on the same idea. Go fast in an underpowered car and learn how to drive. I am readying myself for BMWCCA racing while prepping my E36M3 and hopefully I will have learned something in my E30. I have come to love the car in ways that cannot be discussed without being booted to the OT forum :)

James is correct and I do not dispute that the E36 is a better chassis. If I were a professional driver and offered rides in both chassis I would have to pick the E36 everytime. However, I wear my heart on my sleeve and the E30 is permanently embedded into my very being, I own 4 of them right now. I did take offense to the title since they were kicking my dog and she needed defending.

There is something to be said about passing newer, "faster", more powerful cars with my old dog. It is more satisfying to know that when they pass me, there is no joy in their dryed out brittle hearts. Hearts that long to LOVE their car like I love mine. :redspot

paintpro21: My E30 was built on the same idea. Go fast in an underpowered car and learn how to drive.

+1 to that. I'm probably a couple of years away from moving up to an IP car, but feel I still have a lot to learn from driving my e30 and so am holding off...for now.

While we're on the subject of e30 rear ends, anyone care to share ideas on how to 'tame down' the tail-happiness that seems inherent in their design?

R-Comps or slicks, coilover conversion and a diff with 45% lock, that's what I use :)

My 2c.

Having a E30 with ~300rwhp and a lot of torque, on the track it makes for a lot of fun, most definitely not the best way to learn to drive fast (let alone in an E30). But with all the torque it lets you drive "up a gear" in most places without much trouble and still be fast and concentrate on "driving".

I am running a late model E28 rear end with coil overs, this back end has a 12 degree sweep angle (15 for the E30/M3) and the funny dog bone things to prevent big toe changes (also a big issue for the E30).
Currently running -3.5 on the rear which was a bit too much, good mid corner, power down on exit was a bit of an issue.
Running 245/40 R17 front and rear.

Any ways, I love the E30 but would I spend $35k US on building one and even think of retaining the rear trailing arm suspension, HELL NO!!!

My 2c.

Having a E30 with ~300rwhp and a lot of torque, on the track it makes for a lot of fun, most definitely not the best way to learn to drive fast (let alone in an E30). But with all the torque it lets you drive "up a gear" in most places without much trouble and still be fast and concentrate on "driving".

I am running a late model E28 rear end with coil overs, this back end has a 12 degree sweep angle (15 for the E30/M3) and the funny dog bone things to prevent big toe changes (also a big issue for the E30).
Currently running -3.5 on the rear which was a bit too much, good mid corner, power down on exit was a bit of an issue.
Running 245/40 R17 front and rear.

Any ways, I love the E30 but would I spend $35k US on building one and even think of retaining the rear trailing arm suspension, HELL NO!!!

Do you have any pics of ths setup? That sounds AWESOME. BMW touring cars actually used to use a modified rear subframe with an 11 degree angle. That would make the camber and toe curves MUCH less crappy.

I'm expecting ~350rwhp eventually and at 2000lbs with my E30... this should be REALLY fun.

2000 lbs is really low, you need to have almost everything made from CF then :) Lowest I've seen is 2050 lbs with CF body, Lexan windows, all bumpertrim removed etc.

Any idea about the DTM car's suspension setup? Seems like that would be an excellent place to start...

Having raced both I can say that the e36 is the better platform by far. Easier to drive fast than an e30. My Spec e30 is tons of fun to drive though. It feels like I am going backwards in time down the long straights but it keeps you on your toes in the corners. :D If I was going to spend 35k track car I would do like James said and build a mildly turbo charged e36 with a killer suspension and brakes.

+1 to that. I'm probably a couple of years away from moving up to an IP car, but feel I still have a lot to learn from driving my e30 and so am holding off...for now.

While we're on the subject of e30 rear ends, anyone care to share ideas on how to 'tame down' the tail-happiness that seems inherent in their design?

have you tried the obvious?.....
soft to no rear bar..... softer rear springs....etc

2000 lbs is really low, you need to have almost everything made from CF then :) Lowest I've seen is 2050 lbs with CF body, Lexan windows, all bumpertrim removed etc.

Mine with stock pannels an extensive cage stock bumpers etc. but had lexan, no sunroof and a cf dash was 2300 fueled up (lexan weighs the same as stock pretty much)

Now over the winter I should be getting composite doors, glass bumpers and some other gutting of the car along with saveing a couple of pounds saved with the gas tank when fueled for a sprint race. Also ditching the stock rad support and putting on a fiberglass hood I hope to go sub 2100 fueled with no driver.

If you go composite rear pannels ditch the rad support and stock subframes then sub 2000 should be able to be doable.

That's quite good actually, how much did you save with the CF dash??

the cf dash weighs about 2lbs mabey, not sure what a gutted stock dash weighs though

have you tried the obvious?.....
soft to no rear bar..... softer rear springs....etc

Well, I have to admit that I have not. :D I have the spec setup, and given the amount of bodyroll the H&R springs allow even with the rear bar on full stiff I've been leery to back it off at all. I've decided to make some suspension changes over the winter in hopes of making the car more competitive in KP next season. I'm thinking that going in the opposite direction (stiffer front springs / sway) is the way to go.

Or you could get an M-Coupe and juggle an e36 front with an e30 rear suspension. Funky little car, bull dog cute and not many around. Hehe yes I’m bias. Got to say, the car is a lot of fun to drive. Somehow it feels more connected to the driver.

Or you could get an M-Coupe and juggle an e36 front with an e30 rear suspension. Funky little car, bull dog cute and not many around. Hehe yes I’m bias. Got to say, the car is a lot of fun to drive. Somehow it feels more connected to the driver.

Want to trade for a session at Cal??? :D

Or you could get an M-Coupe and juggle an e36 front with an e30 rear suspension. Funky little car, bull dog cute and not many around. Hehe yes I’m bias. Got to say, the car is a lot of fun to drive. Somehow it feels more connected to the driver.
Or Ti for much less :) I will probably put the E36 M3 front and MZ3 rear subframe in if I get to an S52 swap down the line.

Want to trade for a session at Cal??? :D

Steve, I'm not sure how your front bar is setup, but I bought the Ireland Eng. sways and had them put in the standard 3 adjustment holes. I have mine set to full stiff in the front and rear. To make the bars specE30 legal, I'm going to weld over the unused adjustment holes. ;-) From what I heard, the non-adjustable bars make the car a little twitchy.

Rich, Walter, quit the smack talk and get your damn licenses already, that way I'll have more spots between my SpecE30 and DFL. ;-)

:lol Becareful what you wish for...

Steve, I'm not sure how your front bar is setup, but I bought the Ireland Eng. sways and had them put in the standard 3 adjustment holes. I have mine set to full stiff in the front and rear. To make the bars specE30 legal, I'm going to weld over the unused adjustment holes. ;-) From what I heard, the non-adjustable bars make the car a little twitchy.

Hey Lance - I decide to go with replacing the ST 22mm bar with the IE 25mm bar (not spec legal, I know), and see what the results are. I don't want to invoke understeer, but would like to lessen the current oversteer. I'm still debating on whether to try stiffer springs / new shocks.

:lol Becareful what you wish for...


:devillook

Do you have any pics of ths setup? That sounds AWESOME. BMW touring cars actually used to use a modified rear subframe with an 11 degree angle. That would make the camber and toe curves MUCH less crappy.

Sure do.
Have a look around HERE! (http://www.ubersaloons.co.nz/uber3/uber3.html)

Various pics of the new rear towers, coilovers, brakes, suspension travel, wheel fitment etc...

It is by no means the ideal fix to the E30's geometry woes, but it was easy and met my objectives of improved geometry and strength (over the weedy E30 axle's CV's etc...) and incorporating the rear coilovers and brake upgrade.

Sure do.
Have a look around HERE! (http://www.ubersaloons.co.nz/uber3/uber3.html)

Various pics of the new rear towers, coilovers, brakes, suspension travel, wheel fitment etc...

It is by no means the ideal fix to the E30's geometry woes, but it was easy and met my objectives of improved geometry and strength (over the weedy E30 axle's CV's etc...) and incorporating the rear coilovers and brake upgrade.

Thanks!

I like the idea about using the 96+ M3 control arms, mine has the front wheel a bit backwards as well. Something to keep in mind :)

we modifed our rear subframe to make adjustment very easy, have have a very wide range for camber, and toe adjustment. its not exactly precise but you can get it just right.

I like the idea about using the 96+ M3 control arms, mine has the front wheel a bit backwards as well. Something to keep in mind :)
That's what I used for my conversion and it came out with more camber and caster than stock. I did have the Turner upper strut mounts though which are the BMW "crash" plates.
http://www.dobyworld.com/images/centered2.JPG

Hm okay, I use Intrax castor/camber topmounts, 95 M3 control arms. Hadn't thought about the 96+ ones, but it was the previous owner who did the conversion. It's not such a big deal, but I might be able to run a 225 tire instead of 215 when it's a bit forward :)

Are you using E36 M3 hubs and brakes as well?

M3 front and Ti rear.

Ah okay I have E36 M3 front and E30 M3 rear. Doesn't really make difference Ti or E30 M3 rear end I think, both massive discs anyway, M3 is just slightly bigger.

Ah okay I have E36 M3 front and E30 M3 rear. Doesn't really make difference Ti or E30 M3 rear end I think, both massive discs anyway, M3 is just slightly bigger.

Yes it does... the offsets are different.

we modifed our rear subframe to make adjustment very easy, have have a very wide range for camber, and toe adjustment. its not exactly precise but you can get it just right.

Modifications to the rear subframe are legal in JP? :confused

Modifications to the rear subframe are legal in JP? :confused

Ouch, busted. :devillook

Another problem is that camber and toe are not adjustable seperately with a semi trailing arm system. You can usually get where you want with both, but a change in one will always change the other also.

Ok, for the E28 rear, is it just the arms or the subframe or both, or etc?

Also, what would the wheel offset be at that point?

Modifications to the rear subframe are legal in JP? :confused


I was thinking the same thing.

we modifed our rear subframe to make adjustment very easy, have have a very wide range for camber, and toe adjustment. its not exactly precise but you can get it just right.


I would assume you're referring to the offset rtabs?

paintpro21: My E30 was built on the same idea. Go fast in an underpowered car and learn how to drive.


This is exactly what I'm learning as i'm in the process of learning how to race (i'm very young). Anyone can make the fast car go fast...it takes a driver to make the slow car go fast...I fully support all your advice.

^So..... where's your slow car? :)

Why the '71 SuperBeetle, of course?

Never seen one of those at the track yet.

Mike

Another problem is that camber and toe are not adjustable seperately with a semi trailing arm system.

Only if you use eccentric bush type adjusters.

If you use separate eccentric bolt & slotted tab adjusters for toe and camber the can be adjusted indepenantly.

Ok, for the E28 rear, is it just the arms or the subframe or both, or etc?

Also, what would the wheel offset be at that point?

Trailing arms and Subframe.

I use et38 & et40 17x8" with 245/40's and 6mm spacers on the rear, same on the front with no spacers. Some minor rubbing on the inside at the rear.

OR

et22 17x9" with no spacers on the rear and et40 17x8.5" and 15mm spacers on the front when running 240/625 slicks

Running no rear sway bar, & 350# springs with 120# tenders, stock front swaybar and 550# springs.

"There are two great aims in life; First to acquire the things you want, and second, to enjoy them.
It is the latter that is most difficult."

^So..... where's your slow car? :)

E30 325i 4 door, alpine on black and yeah the beetles pretty damn slow too..not for the track

I'm also building a high power e30 track car with e36 struts, motor etc. One of my big concerns is getting enough tire on there to put the power down without flares. Are people who are putting huge tires on tubbing the rear wheelwells or just aggressively rolling fenders. The treehouse racing e30 and akards car pre-flares both look like they have some healthy meats on there.
Getting a free chassis had a lot to do with my decision to go e30. I drive a 318ti now so at least Ill be consistent with my geometry. If I was starting from a totally clean slate the e36 seems like the way to go. Prices have come way down and you'll spend more than the difference if you choose to update your e30 to DOHC/ 5lug. A plus for the e36 is also that there are way more used race parts available, there are 10 e36 BBKs for every e30 kit in the classifieds. Of course if your budget is 35K you wont be browsing the classifieds as much. The e30 has a lot going for it also. HUGE style points, the e30 is a way better looking car than any of the later models, you'll get more high fives and more ladies!. I dont know how the club race classes are set up, is the e36 more competetive? Like has already has been said every generation usually improves on the last. Realistically your probly best off going with the latest car your budget allows. But if you want a real challenge you've gota go with the underdog.

I'm also building a high power e30 track car with e36 struts, motor etc. One of my big concerns is getting enough tire on there to put the power down without flares. Are people who are putting huge tires on tubbing the rear wheelwells or just aggressively rolling fenders. The treehouse racing e30 and akards car pre-flares both look like they have some healthy meats on there.
Getting a free chassis had a lot to do with my decision to go e30. I drive a 318ti now so at least Ill be consistent with my geometry. If I was starting from a totally clean slate the e36 seems like the way to go. Prices have come way down and you'll spend more than the difference if you choose to update your e30 to DOHC/ 5lug. A plus for the e36 is also that there are way more used race parts available, there are 10 e36 BBKs for every e30 kit in the classifieds. Of course if your budget is 35K you wont be browsing the classifieds as much. The e30 has a lot going for it also. HUGE style points, the e30 is a way better looking car than any of the later models, you'll get more high fives and more ladies!. I dont know how the club race classes are set up, is the e36 more competetive? Like has already has been said every generation usually improves on the last. Realistically your probly best off going with the latest car your budget allows. But if you want a real challenge you've gota go with the underdog.

Before and after flares on my car....same size tires and wheels! Pre-flares, we had 305/645-18 Pirelli Slicks and 285/30-18 Hoosier DOTs on the car after "rolling" the fenders for street use. 18 x 10 wheels with e46 M3 fitment from TireRack. Handling was SUPERB for an antiquated, obsolete chassis, but the nay-sayers are still saying the car won't be competitive despite the numerous class-record fast laps at TWS, NHIS, Roebling, Road Atlanta, and Gingerman. Fairly competitive on a budget! The lighter weight and shorter wheelbase of an e30 has significant advantages over some of the newer stuff on some tracks just as the improved aero has its advantages on other tracks. With the proper rear suspension alterations, the e30 rear setup is not as bad as folks make it sound. Granted, it's tough to get it right and keep it right, but when it's dialed-in, most folks won't have many bad comments once they've piloted it through some good twisties! ;)

Mine had e36 front goodies (struts, brakes, knuckles, and rack) with Brembo big brakes and M-Roadster/M-Coupe rear suspension (bigger vented rotors, additional bracing, and larger bearings compared to the e30 or 318ti). Contrary to popular belief, the offsets of all three trailing arms (e30, 318ti, and M-Roadster/M-Coupe) are all identical and thus interchangeable. I've had all three on my car at various times during its progression from street driven IPrepared car to street driven CMod to trailer queen DMod. Evidently, there are some differences in the rear subframes of these cars that change the offsets, but the control arms are actually the same size. :cool

Most recent modification (due out later this year) will include e36/e46 rear suspension grafted into the e30 bodywork following the failure of my rear subframe and diff mounts during the enduro at Roebling in Dec. My new partial-tube e30 chassis will incorporate a custom double a-arm front suspension and some really trick goodies in the rear that should result in lighter weight as well as....HOPEFULLY....some handling improvements! In Mod, since we can do anything we want with the suspension (other than cockpit adjustable swaybars), we can utilize the components from any generation BMW or fab our own custom setup to do precisely what we might want to do (or fit our budget) without having to sacrifice the significant advantages of the lightweight e30 chassis and shorter wheelbase or spend the extra cash buying newer sheet metal that's only going to be cast aside in exchange for those lightweight composite body panels that always seem to find their way on most of the competitive Mod class racecars! There won't be very many times that the additional 200lbs of weight savings that can be realized with an e30 chassis won't benefit your racing efforts since saving weight provides superior cornering, braking, tire-wear, and acceleration! ;)

Good luck with your builds.....which ever version of the Ultimate Driving Machine that you might choose (or best fits your budget)! :):):)

I don't think you are allowed to call that an e30 anymore Mike ;)

I don't think you are allowed to call that an e30 anymore Mike ;)

LOL!;)

... I could build for $35k....

For that budget, why not just buy a well sorted race car and be done with it?

Do you ever come to NHIS Mike? I would love to see that car in person.

Do you ever come to NHIS Mike? I would love to see that car in person.

I was there for the Premier Event in 2005 (turned a 1:10.0 lap in race #1 in with the "inferior suspension"), but it is a heckuva tow from east TN to NHIS for a regional event. I'd love to race at NHIS again, so I'll probably be there if NA designates it as their Premier Event again in the future. There is some decent in-car coverage of the last time I was at NHIS (when I was running in CM) with the "inferior e30 chassis" on my website if you have high-speed download. :) The photos of my car that I use on bf.c were taken just a few weeks after my first trip to NHIS and someone sent me some neat shots of my car that were taken at NHIS that are some of my favorites:cool despite the unpleasant memories of that emotional rollercoaster weekend. :(

Nice specs on the new e30 Mike, should be a bad ass :)
PS: Sorry about the game ;)

Nice specs on the new e30 Mike, should be a bad ass :)
PS: Sorry about the game ;)

Tough 2 play the 5 on the court and the zebras too! ;)