I have a couple 1st place finishes in DS but over all I placed second. I keep getting wooped by an E30 :shifty Hes a good driver for sure and his car is inherently a lot lighter.. I cant keep up with him for the life of me.

So Anyways.. I have a 325is. H&R coilovers, 400# rear springs and 95 M3 strut hats.

I'm not a suspension expert but I was thinking of getting 375# front springs made, and getting some 97+ stut hats and swapping them around, and then I would like some sway bars, but I don't know what to get...

Also, Id like ot get used parts if possible.

You guys have any opinions?

what class are you running? What is the handling problem you're trying to solve?

btw your car looks way too low to fit real tires or have much suspension travel.

Im in DS. And it looks lower in that pic b/c its leaning quite a bit. I have the old Azenis in 225. Wish they were wider, but I gotta wear these out before I get something new.

Id like to solve the leaning issue and it pushes a little too much as far as I can tell.

Im in DS. And it looks lower in that pic b/c its leaning quite a bit. I have the old Azenis in 225. Wish they were wider, but I gotta wear these out before I get something new.

Id like to solve the leaning issue and it pushes a little too much as far as I can tell.

Well first off with coil overs and all it's not in DS but in DSP. If you are going to stay in that class then all's I can say is a set of Hoosiers or V710's. Even though I can beat M3's with R-comps with my car on streets :)

Otherwise it sounds like your car is nicely set up. You are looking in the right direction for a spot on alignment, that makes a huge difference.

You mean its currently set up well?:ponder :conf

With the modifications you listed, you're definitely not legal for DS, but are legal for DSP. If you're running wheels no wider than 8" and tires no wider than 245mm, it sounds like you're also legal for STX. If you're running in a novice class where they PAX your time, I assume that two of the restrictions are (1) you can't run in a Street Touring class and (2) you can't run R compounds. So in that case, DSP it is (for now).

As far as the car being "set up well," there's no way for a guy on the Internet to tell you if it is or isn't. A fast car that handles well is literally more than the sum of its parts. You can spend until your credit card is transparent but you've still got to (a) dial the car in, and (b) drive the thing.

Good tires and an alignment will do wonders for you. The Falken Azenis RT-615 is a popular, fast, and inexpensive tire. For alignment, try -3 degrees camber and 0 toe in the front; -2 degrees and 1/8" - 3/16" total toe-in in the back.

you need front camber

With the modifications you listed, you're definitely not legal for DS, but are legal for DSP.

This may be so for whatever chapter or whatever series you run in, but hes running the RMC BMW CCA events and it looks like hes ok for DS:

http://rmcbmwcca.org/php/ClassifyAX.php

This may be so for whatever chapter or whatever series you run in, but hes running the RMC BMW CCA events and it looks like hes ok for DS:

http://rmcbmwcca.org/php/ClassifyAX.php

You know, I considered that he might not be running with SCCA, but for whatever reason I didn't make a note of that. Thanks for the correction.

Don't put some ridiculous front sway bar on that'll make the inside front wheel lift 4'' off the ground like 99% of the E36's out there do.

Don't put some ridiculous front sway bar on that'll make the inside front wheel lift 4'' off the ground like 99% of the E36's out there do.

oh come on now. why not? its good for it. :D

Don't put some ridiculous front sway bar on that'll make the inside front wheel lift 4'' off the ground like 99% of the E36's out there do.

oh come on now. why not? its good for it. :D

you could always balance it out with an equally ridiculous wing and splitter. ;)

Don't put some ridiculous front sway bar on that'll make the inside front wheel lift 4'' off the ground like 99% of the E36's out there do.

What if the car is faster with the inside front wheel 4" off the ground? The big front bar is not ideal, but in many classes it's the best you can do.

What if the car is faster with the inside front wheel 4" off the ground? The big front bar is not ideal, but in many classes it's the best you can do.


I can't imagine a situation where using a front bar that stiff is the best way to go.


I always see the rear end being relatively soft and rolling significantly, with the front end stiff and jacking up the inside front. There's got to be a better way.

I can't imagine a situation where using a front bar that stiff is the best way to go.


I always see the rear end being relatively soft and rolling significantly, with the front end stiff and jacking up the inside front. There's got to be a better way.There IS a better way, but in SCCA stock class, you cannot use it. Stiffer springs may control roll better, but they are excluded from stock class. About all you can do in stock class (SCCA Solo) is the front bar and different dampers. In the case where the only options are no changes at all or the front bar, some have found the front bar to be faster. :dunno

Scott

I can't imagine a situation where using a front bar that stiff is the best way to go.

How about in a class where you're not allowed to change springs or relocate suspension mounting points? There you go.

I always see the rear end being relatively soft and rolling significantly, with the front end stiff and jacking up the inside front. There's got to be a better way.

There are classes in which springs and both ARBs can be changed but it's illegal to move suspension mounting points. Without allowing major geometry changes it's nearly impossible to stop the front inside wheel lift and have the car still be fast.

Now if you're building a prepared class autocross car or a mod-class club racer then yeah, you can fix the geometry to keep the wheel down.

Go to a driving school. It's the best way to improve. Driver is a much larger factor than car setup.

Spend money on tightening the nut behind the wheel, the you can better benifit from what upgrades you've made or want to make to your car.

Just my $0.02

Without allowing major geometry changes it's nearly impossible to stop the front inside wheel lift and have the car still be fast.


I disagree, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Explain please.

Go to a driving school. It's the best way to improve. Driver is a much larger factor than car setup.Just my $0.02


Big +1

I disagree, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Explain please.

I'll go the experiential route. I've _never_ seen a fast E36 in autocross that didn't have a big front bar.

I'll also add that it's very rare that any car goes fast without a big front bar in autocross. I can think of very few exceptions.

Fast is a loose term.. so we'll say it's defined as "able to trophy in Topeka".

a typical nationally-competitive "california setup" on an e36 (ie: no rear bar) does result in a car that's not so much a tricycle, but it doesn't totally eliminate the front wheel lift. in a stock setup car tho, there is no avoiding the three wheel motion.

I'll go the experiential route. I've _never_ seen a fast E36 in autocross that didn't have a big front bar.

I'll also add that it's very rare that any car goes fast without a big front bar in autocross. I can think of very few exceptions.

Fast is a loose term.. so we'll say it's defined as "able to trophy in Topeka".

back in 04 was able to get a relatively soft front-bar setup to work well enough to trophy every national tour / pro solo it saw. this was with a grossly un-modified (at the time) street modified car. it took a lot of tinkering, but it did work pretty well. the only real bad thing about that setup was that it was not so good on concrete.

What bar is best fit to run with some h&r coilovers? My roll is rediculous. Id get stiffer springs but I dont think the shocks can handle them.

In stock class, the front bar helps in two ways. One, it allows the car to transition faster. Second, it preserves what little camber the car has through the elimination of body roll. The force of the outside suspension being compressed causes the inside wheel to lift. Once the front inside wheel is off the ground, the bar has done all it can. It looks stupid and is definitely sub-optimal, but it works. Really well, actually.

In an STX, SP or SM class car, the front ride height is lowered. Look at the pivot points relative to the stock car. The outer ball joint is higher than the inner. The roll center has become sub-optimal. The only way to fix this is to relocate the mounting points, either by raising the inner ball joint and lollipop or by lowering the outer ball joint. Neither of these things is legal in ST, SP or SM.

Do a search on the Watts club racing car. I believe they have custom fabricated control arms and perhaps relocated suspension mounting points to fix this problem.

In stock class, the front bar helps in two ways. One, it allows the car to transition faster. Second, it preserves what little camber the car has through the elimination of body roll. The force of the outside suspension being compressed causes the inside wheel to lift. Once the front inside wheel is off the ground, the bar has done all it can. It looks stupid and is definitely sub-optimal, but it works. Really well, actually.

In an STX, SP or SM class car, the front ride height is lowered. Look at the pivot points relative to the stock car. The outer ball joint is higher than the inner. The roll center has become sub-optimal. The only way to fix this is to relocate the mounting points, either by raising the inner ball joint and lollipop or by lowering the outer ball joint. Neither of these things is legal in ST, SP or SM.

Do a search on the Watts club racing car. I believe they have custom fabricated control arms and perhaps relocated suspension mounting points to fix this problem.


So they can't touch the rear bar in 'stock class'?

Correct

I'll go the experiential route. I've _never_ seen a fast E36 in autocross that didn't have a big front bar.

I'll also add that it's very rare that any car goes fast without a big front bar in autocross. I can think of very few exceptions.

Fast is a loose term.. so we'll say it's defined as "able to trophy in Topeka".

I trophied this year with stock swaybars on the STS car I drove... :D It would have really benifited from a bigger front bar though. Our mistake not putting one on before nats. FWIW, it wasn't a BMW

Civics are one of the exceptions. A local CSP CRX here has no front sway bar and the thing flies.

In Stock, a front bar is obvious. In ST and SP, chances are a bigger front bar will go faster. In SM, no comment ;)

My Camaro has a 35mm solid front bar on it right now. Unfortunately, I don't think the wheel will lift very much :(

Um... it wasn't a civic.

JRZ's ride?

It was a 2.5 RS. There were quite a few non-civics in the trophies this year finally. I grabbed the last spot, had I not driven bad the second day, I think I could have moved up a few spots hopefully.

As an E36 autocrosser and suspension parts maker, I can see three quick things in your picture...


Your front wheels need a LOT more negative camber
Your car is overlowered
Lots of body roll, too

I will assume you either cannot run R compounds in your "DS" class, or that you cannot afford to. Grippy tires are the number one improvement in Solo racing, bar none. Get the most grip you can afford and fit under the fenders. Then roll/hammer/cut the fenders to clear more tire. :D

OK, so assuming you've got the best tires money can buy - I would do whatever it takes to get more front camber. $300-500 in race quality camber plates would pay for themselves on your next 1-2 sets of race tires, with improved tire wear alone. Not to mention the added grip and performance! Tuning around a car with too little camber is pointless. Run nagative 3-4° in front if you get adj. plates. Swapping strut hats is the budget mega-compromise, as unlike with adjustable camber-caster plates, you can't quickly re-align the car to street friendly specs, and you can almost never get enough camber with just the old "hat trick". We run -2° on the street and -4° at the track. Little toe out helps turn in, too.

Even if your "DS" class adds points for camber plates, remove other mods to allow for them. Do whatever it takes. Give me an E36 with adequate negative camber + R-compounds and I will give you a faster car, dollar-for-dollar. I'm not trying to sell you our plates - buy any brand, as long as you can get some camber in that lean machine. :D

Next up is springs/shocks. 375#/inch fronts are SOFT. 400# is not enough difference to matter - don't bother until you can afford to get into the 450-500+# range (coil-overs or stock style). That will help with the body roll a LOT. Out back, run about 30-40% more rate than in front, as the lever ratio of the rear suspension makes for less effective spring at the tire, and this ratio usually works for a good balance/neutrality. We have 750# rears on our STU classed M3 (a car that won 1 class and placed 2nd in another at 2006 SCCA Solo2 Nats) and it still gets street drive 8-10K miles a year. More rate is better unless you run on super bumpy track surfaces. Then you need to invest more in the shocks... 3-way adjustables are great for bumpy tracks.

Lower the car too much and you risk bottoming out the suspension (you just went to infinite spring rate), bottoming out the struts (very bad, damaging), and even worse camber curves. Raise your car about 1/2 to 3/4". It looks too low, but that picture is only showing the loaded side in a corner.

Anti-Sway Bars - run 'em big, big as you can get 'em, front and especially back. Excessive body lean is bad, and will overload the outside tires and reduce grip/tire wear. Picking up an inside tire isn't pretty, but big bars are fast.

After you get those out of the way, shocks are vital. Coil-overs are great, as you get hundreds of rates/lengths to choose from, and the shocks themselves tend to be better than just "Bilsteins" and other stock replacement options. Drop a note if you want more details on what works well for the $, or if you have classing restrictions...

On tires - if you are mandated to a certain size/treadwear rating before getting "points" that could bump you up a class (BMWCCA autocross classing tends to be mods/points based) then get the stock/near stock size in a Falken RT-615, Yokohama Advan AD07, Bridgestone RE050, or similar 140-200 treadwear race designed "street" tires. They all grip a lot better than anything else in this treadwear range, and getting the stock-ish size would keep you from getting "points".

^ Thanks Fair. I definately agree with you on the camber plates and Im looking for the best deal.

Could I run 450 front 585 rear on H&R coilovers?

^ Thanks Fair. I definately agree with you on the camber plates and Im looking for the best deal.

Could I run 450 front 585 rear on H&R coilovers?
Yes, I think that would be some good rates to start with. The H&R struts won't "explode" or anything, either. :)

But can they handle those rates without failing prematurely? :)

But can they handle those rates without failing prematurely? :)
I couldn't say definitively about your existing H&R C/O shocks, but 500# springs are fairly common and not near the ragged edge of craziness. Use the right springs for the application, and if your shocks can't keep up with the rates, upgrade the shocks at that time.

We'll have our full array of newly designed 1, 2 and 3-way adjustable (and custom valve-able) coil-over shocks in the next 60 days. These shocks will handle whatever rates you can dream up. :D

AST by Vorshlag (http://www.ast-usa.com/) - coming soon...