http://www.carolinaspeedzone.com/road_atlanta_dec2006/road_atlanta1_dec06.wmv

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eyecrazy :eyecrazy :eyecrazy

What was he doing? Maybe he didn't read how heavy his car is. That is almost as good as that video from a couple of years ago with the Viper that does 360s in front of the E30 after the kink coming down the front straight at VIR.

HAHHAHHHAHAHAHA

He's definately not going to be an HPDE champion like me, that's for sure.

What's with the clapping and nearly coming to a stop? I don't know the track, but I'd be pissed if I came around the (seemingly blind) corner and heard applause and hooting from a parked car.

Maybe the Viper guy was a jerk, but taking pleasure in his misfortune (can't tell if there was damage) seems a tad unsporting.

What's with the clapping and nearly coming to a stop? I don't know the track, but I'd be pissed if I came around the (seemingly blind) corner and heard applause and hooting from a parked car.

Maybe the Viper guy was a jerk, but taking pleasure in his misfortune (can't tell if there was damage) seems a tad unsporting.

Yup. IMO, both were utter idiots.

But only the Viper "driver" went Code Brown....

What's with the clapping and nearly coming to a stop? I don't know the track, but I'd be pissed if I came around the (seemingly blind) corner and heard applause and hooting from a parked car.

Maybe the Viper guy was a jerk, but taking pleasure in his misfortune (can't tell if there was damage) seems a tad unsporting.

The viper guy definitely seems like a douche. He loses control of his car while passing a car at a HPDE event, which is usually done using point bys. He clearly was too intent on "beating" the vette, that he couldn't sacrifice the track position to make a "safe" pass on the camera car. I think the camera car driver understood this, hence his distain for the viper driver. Whether or not he should have come to a slow crawl in his car, to clap and yell out the window is up in the air :D

Not to sound like a stick in the mud but that Viper guy might want to think twice about driving like that in a convertable.

Oh and second...HAHAH !

i can understand an " oh shit" or something along those lines but the clapping part was uncalled for. The guy in the viper was lucky he didn't hit another car or hit the wall.

The only thing that would have been better would have been if the jackass in the camera car would have gotten another Viper rammed up his ass for stopping like that on the track and laughing at the guy.....of course, that would have meant another innocent victim, so maybe not.

Clapping and almost stopping on the track?? Looks like the camera car guy needs a time out, as he could have caused the exact same thing to happen to someone else coming up behind him. I don't see the point in the holier than though attitude, and making fun of someones misjudgement. Looked to me like the Vette braked too much for T1, and the Viper driver over reacted. Glad no one got hit. Everyone is out there to learn, and hopefully they did, and will spend more time learning car control, and how to threshold brake while maintaining control.

I think the Viper driver, "learned" a late pass on the inside of the front straight ain't a good idea.

who the hell claps and says yeah? Much less when you have someone spin in front of you when exiting a high speed turn :confused

there's way to many things wrong in that video

I think he had a adrenaline moment

SO is Molvania close to Moldova...Just curious my wifes from Moldova;)

who was running this event? what skill level was this group?

i want to know so i can avoid them....yikes

i'm sure the guy in the camera car has never made a mistake on track. i think the viper driver wasn't expecting the vette to stay mid track for entry. i think he did a good job of not involving the vette.
as for stopping, somebody needs to get their head in the game before they get plowed from behind.

Based on the number/letter on the car it was an A run group, meaning "advanced drivers", or solo drivers. I think all the cars were running with no instructors..

Anyone who had a chance of hitting the stopped cameracar wouldve/shouldve seen the whole accident unfold and been hard on the brakes anyways. You gotta applaud the moron that spun out dive bombing the main straight. Someone like that deserves to be taunted.

regardless of the unsporting and/or deserving character of the clapping, thanks for the entertaining vid. Do you think if the Vette hadn't "brake-checked" him, he would have made the turn at that speed and line?

I don't think the Vette brake checked anyone. The camera car pointed by the Vette & Viper. However, the Vette should have waved it off, as it was too close to the end of the straight approaching T1.

But the retard took the pass, and then almost ran out of talent when T1 appeared.

And the Viper moron REALLY ran out of talent by trying to tag along with the Vette idiot, WAY too close to T1.

Frankly, I am amazed that the Viper didn't hit the T1 corner station.

What was he doing? Maybe he didn't read how heavy his car is.

Huh? The Viper doesnt weight much more than a loaded M3 does.
Viper SRT-10 weight 3385
1995 M3 3250

edit.......after watching the video numerous times, it does look like the Viper driver took a late pass and didnt expect the Vette to ride his brakes. BAd decision, but to laugh and call the guy names? I've seen a dozen M3's do the same thing, but the M3 is a far easier car to drive, the Viper is front heavy and gets light in the rear easily

I guess it's easy to hate on people youre envious of.

I dont see the guy in the viper doing much wrong other than not expecting a douche to jam on his brakes EXITING a corner.

I guess it's easy to hate on people youre envious of.

http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/bspost.jpg

The vette's pass I don't think was too late assuming it was done from a point by. the vette and the camera car were still decently spaced. The corvette was also past the camera car before the braking zone for 1. (and may have been beside for a good part of the straight, as I'm not sure the camera car was ever "off throttle" until the black car was past him.)

The corvette did slow a bit more than was probably expected, but the viper shouldn't have been there anyway. he should have stayed behind the camera car and waited.

The viper underestimated the slowing of the corvette, and then overreacted to the distance/closing rate. He stabbed the brakes mid turn and it all went to hell then. Had he not used the brake pedal he probably would have been ok.

Huh? The Viper doesnt weight anymore than a loaded M3 does, I dont see the guy in the viper doing much wrong other than not expecting a douche to jam on his brakes EXITING a corner.

I guess it's easy to hate on people youre envious of.

while the corvette was on the brakes perhaps a touch longer than needed (perhaps due to being on an unfamilar line being a few feet more to the middle of the track than usual?) he wasn't on the brakes after the apex. He was off the brakes at his turn in point.

and again, in a DE, what was the viper doing that close to him anyway? :dunno

The vette's pass I don't think was too late assuming it was done from a point by. the vette and the camera car were still decently spaced. The corvette was also past the camera car before the braking zone for 1.


Sorry, not true. The Vette doesn't make the pass until he is parallel to the LAST vertical braking marker on the left side wall. For a DE--in street cars--that is way too late, considering how fast the Vette was barreling in there.

You'll also notoce that the idiot driving the camera car has REMOVED his rear view mirror. LOL. What a confederacy of dunces on that track in this video!

anyone else see the red e36 pull awayhard on the camera guy..... pretty nice camera guys is a douche

LOL Vipers should come with a mandatory school participation.... I see more viper driving idiots than every other make combined, it's sad, really!

LOL Vipers should come with a mandatory school participation.... I see more viper driving idiots than every other make combined, it's sad, really!

I know, they are almost as bad as vette guys.

Almost.

It's funny. Not the danger part, but how ironic it all is.

At my first formal DE a month or so ago at RA in the classroom they covered what groups have what amount of accidents. BMWCCA event, mind you. Run group B had the most. Group A had the second to most and C/D had the least. :lol: I imagine a healthy portion is due to guys pushing hard and having less room for mistakes. I imagine the other portion, a large portion(?), is due to guys who think they know it all and do stupid things.

I know, they are almost as bad as vette guys.

HAHAHHAHAHHAAAHHAHA

I will rub your face in feces!

HAHAHHAHAHHAAAHHAHA

I will rub your face in feces!


Literally...........

http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/geez.jpg

LOL Vipers should come with a mandatory school participation.... I see more viper driving idiots than every other make combined, it's sad, really!

While I agree with the first part, the second part is pretty friggin stupid, so because someone makes more than you he's an idiot?

VIpers are hard cars to drive, it's pretty easy to modulate a throttle when you only have 180whp, most vipers have more HP at idle than you have at WOT, so yeah it's a harder car to drive and easy for people to get in trouble.

Having driven and raced and HPDE'd both cars, as well as an bunch of others, the M3 is "idiots HPDE car" Now before everyone goes flaming me, what I mean is............Anyone can hop in a stock M3 and be relatively quick, the car is balanced, foregiving and hides a LOT of driver error's so anyone can look good in one(almost anyone anyway)

A viper, and even the newer vettes, are like driving a raped ape, they are raw, unruly but insanely fast AND quick if you learn how to drive itFAR faster AND Quicker than even a highly Mod'd M3............Flame on.......

WIth taht said, I love my M3 it was a nice compromise i was less concerned about trashing a 1 in a million car, vs trashing a 1-4,000 car

While I agree with the first part, the second part is pretty friggin stupid, so because someone makes more than you he's an idiot?

VIpers are hard cars to drive, it's pretty easy to modulate a throttle when you only have 180whp, most vipers have more HP at idle than you have at WOT, so yeah it's a harder car to drive and easy for people to get in trouble.

Having driven and raced and HPDE'd both cars, as well as an bunch of others, the M3 is "idiots HPDE car" Now before everyone goes flaming me, what I mean is............Anyone can hop in a stock M3 and be relatively quick, the car is balanced, foregiving and hides a LOT of driver error's so anyone can look good in one(almost anyone anyway)

A viper, and even the newer vettes, are like driving a raped ape, they are raw, unruly but insanely fast AND quick if you learn how to drive itFAR faster AND Quicker than even a highly Mod'd M3............Flame on.......

WIth taht said, I love my M3 it was a nice compromise i was less concerned about trashing a 1 in a million car, vs trashing a 1-4,000 car


Dude, I stopped reading your post after the above bold part.. If I wanted a viper, i'd go to the dealership and write a CHECK for one tomorrow. They are shitty cars. A good friend of mine owns 3 of them, two GTS's, and 1 SRT-10. I dont like them, they handle poorly, are over weight, and are overly expensive to modify. I prefer corvettes.

You're obviously an idiot who has never experienced a viper, much less experienced their short comings..

Ok, I read your whole post.. It confirms..

You're an idiot.

WITTY RESPONSESZZz!

Dude, I stopped reading your post after the above bold part.. If I wanted a viper, i'd go to the dealership and write a CHECK for one tomorrow. They are shitty cars. A good friend of mine owns 3 of them, two GTS's, and 1 SRT-10. I dont like them, they handle poorly, are over weight, and are overly expensive to modify. I prefer corvettes.

You're obviously an idiot who has never experienced a viper, much less experienced their short comings..

youre pretty funny actually, hell anyone can write a check for a viper, doesnt mean it's any good.
As for never experiencing one? theirs a dozen people on here who can vouch otherwise.........Owned one, modified one, and honestly, it's no more expensive to modify one that the M3, but feel free to go ask your "fried" who has 3 since you are now knowledgeable via association.....as for a vette, sure go be original, just like all your friends!

Ok, I read your whole post.. It confirms..

You're an idiot.

very clever repsonse, what i like most is all the relevant facts to back up your statements, now go away and spend more of daddies money!

INCINERATION!
YuO ARE THE INSULT MASTER!

This one's for you two guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRYEFO1RoZ4

INCINERATION!
YuO ARE THE INSULT MASTER!

el oh el.

There is the possibility that there was a passenger in the camera car doing the commentary?...:rolleyes

I think the Viper driver, "learned" a late pass on the inside of the front straight ain't a good idea.
Especially at RA that first turn is forgiving as hell, but not when you over correct like that.

You'll also notoce that the idiot driving the camera car has REMOVED his rear view mirror. LOL. What a confederacy of dunces on that track in this video!You obviously have forgotten the classic scene in Gumball Rally.

Raul Julia climbs into the Ferrari and looks over at Tim McIntire. As he grabs and rips the rear view mirror out of the car he says "First rule of Italian driving, what's behind me is not important..."

Although the camera car driver didn't sound Italian ... you never know. :D

this is dumb.

Sorry, not true. The Vette doesn't make the pass until he is parallel to the LAST vertical braking marker on the left side wall. For a DE--in street cars--that is way too late, considering how fast the Vette was barreling in there.

You'll also notoce that the idiot driving the camera car has REMOVED his rear view mirror. LOL. What a confederacy of dunces on that track in this video!

Are you the god of DE's?:confused If I were in the vette I would prob. have held off but I don't think that it was unsafe. (assuming that he got a point by) I am sure that you haven't done anything like that in your life tho...:rolleyes

Now the viper should def. have held off. I am sure he was having a my American beast is faster than your Am. beast moment but that was just stupid.

Don't even get me started on the guy who clapped... Who even thinks of doing that on the track.:eek:

ok, personal slights asside....

At MAM they call the viper clubs days "Snakes in the Grass". I was talking with one of the corner workers and he confirmed that there where more offs with vipers then any other club.

ok, personal slights asside....

At MAM they call the viper clubs days "Snakes in the Grass". I was talking with one of the corner workers and he confirmed that there where more offs with vipers then any other club.

I wouldn't doubt that at all. Think about it. They don't have traction control and have a TON of power. You put an unexperianced driver in the car and guess what.... Really isn't that suprising to me :dunno

so because someone makes more than you he's an idiot?




After reading this, and your previous post claiming that the Viper move was OK because the Vette was brake checking him at the apex (when any moron could watch the video & see all the carnage happen ON THE STRAIGHTAWAY), I think Ryan's assessment of you is right on target.

E- no offense, but you have never been to Road Atlanta. When you do, you will see that the inside of turn one is not an optimal place for a 3400+lbs. street car to put itself sandwiched between two other cars who all expect to make it. It was a bad lapse in judgement.

1st of all... let me go ahead and say that I will vouch for Eric... I can and will confirm that he in fact drove a '98 viper GTS on track, and has in fact instructed many others as well.

Coming to this late... but I think everyone's forgetting the fact that we're all friends here. There are idiots driving ALL makes and models. Eric may have taken the post a little too personally being a former Viper owner himself. But I'll vouch for him that he in fact is NOT an idiot. We wouldn't let him instruct for us if he was.

Now... there's a MUCH bigger picture here that most have may have missed (and please correct me if I'm wrong):

THE CAMERA CAR IS A PORSCHE !!!!!

Of course, it is a 911. That was obvious from the beginning.

I wouldn't doubt that at all. Think about it. They don't have traction control and have a TON of power. You put an unexperianced driver in the car and guess what.... Really isn't that suprising to me :dunno
Now that i would 100% agree with........

No traction control, no Stabilitrack like the vettes, and in some of the older models, no ABS.......makes them veryhard to drive at first and easy to get into trouble

Well, then, they should not be driven by retards who are clueless about passing, and about proper following distances into corners, in the A group.

This is just a guess....but, I'll bet the camera car "gave" the vette a point-by. Then the viper decided to "take" the vette's point-by as his and whoops not enough room to get it slowed down. I recently had an experience where my student gave a car a point-by and while getting back on line, the second car back decides he's going to pass too (without a point-by)....almost side swiping us at turn-in. Luckily my student saw the second car (while it was in my blind spot) and reacted appropriately.

I'd also be willing to bet the two vipers were in a battle for a "Red Mist" trophy.

The vid is somewhat entertaining though....

If I were able to embellish upon it, I'd have the second viper punt the P-car just as he's beginning his clapping :D

Damon in STL

Of course, it is a 911. That was obvious from the beginning.


no it's not obvious and no it's not a 911. it's a 944. owned three myself. actually i thought the dash vents looked similar to an E36 until you pointed out it was a porsche

911....944...whatever it takes. ;)

Well, then, they should not be driven by retards who are clueless about passing, and about proper following distances into corners, in the A group.

Oh come on now. You are getting rediculous.:rolleyes Honestly, I bet the Vette and Viper were going at it for a while and the Vette rode the brakes much harder than he did in previous corners. The Viper guy was just all giddy and overzealous with the pass cause he was trying to prove he had the faster car:rolleyes In the end, the Viper guy made a stupid decision (I have seen it done TONS of times in driving events AND IN RACES WHICH I BET MARANELLOMAN WOULD NEVER ADMIT TO:rolleyes

Maranelloman, have you ever screwed up while in the car? I hope not cause then you would be a HUGE hypocryte.... I would be willing to bet all $1.27 that I am worth that sometime while in the car you made a bad decision no matter how small...

What bothers me most is I bet that the Viper didn't get in any trouble, (other than a little chat AT MOST) and the P-car def. didn't. I understand how hard it can be to monitor the track for clubs but some of the crap (like this) shouldn't be left untouched. IMO the guy in the viper should be asked to sit out a session as a penalty. PERIOD. The name of the guy should be taken down and held for a certain period of time. If he screws up again like this in the next couple of times or whatever the determined penalty box period is he should be sent home. Third time he is out. PERIOD.

I also wish clubs would share info on drivers. I have seen SO many stupid things at the track by people who don't deserve to be at the track it isn't funny. There were a couple of kids in one of my track days at limerock that were trying to drift around the corners..... Not the smartest thing to do with people following you.. (not to mention that they went off a TON of times)

Anyhow, I digress...

The Vette pass was a bit late, but he probably had to really brake hard after he saw the Viper was coming down the inside of him. He used all the track, but could have carried an additional 5+mph into the turn if he could have put his car at the apex.

The braking into T1 is really bumpy on the inside, so I'm sure that caught the Viper guy out too. I was surprised the first time I went braking into T1 in the middle of the track and found the bumps.

Not really sure what the Viper guy was doing. Even if there weren't any cars around him he could have never made it through T1 at that speed with the far inside line he was taking. If he didn't spin there and decided to try to take the corner he'd probably have a front impact with the wall out there.

Oh come on now. You are getting rediculous.:rolleyes Honestly, I bet the Vette and Viper were going at it for a while and the Vette rode the brakes much harder than he did in previous corners. The Viper guy was just all giddy and overzealous with the pass cause he was trying to prove he had the faster car:rolleyes In the end, the Viper guy made a stupid decision (I have seen it done TONS of times in driving events AND IN RACES WHICH I BET MARANELLOMAN WOULD NEVER ADMIT TO:rolleyes

Maranelloman, have you ever screwed up while in the car? I hope not cause then you would be a HUGE hypocryte.... I would be willing to bet all $1.27 that I am worth that sometime while in the car you made a bad decision no matter how small...

What bothers me most is I bet that the Viper didn't get in any trouble, (other than a little chat AT MOST) and the P-car def. didn't. I understand how hard it can be to monitor the track for clubs but some of the crap (like this) shouldn't be left untouched. IMO the guy in the viper should be asked to sit out a session as a penalty. PERIOD. The name of the guy should be taken down and held for a certain period of time. If he screws up again like this in the next couple of times or whatever the determined penalty box period is he should be sent home. Third time he is out. PERIOD.

I also wish clubs would share info on drivers. I have seen SO many stupid things at the track by people who don't deserve to be at the track it isn't funny. There were a couple of kids in one of my track days at limerock that were trying to drift around the corners..... Not the smartest thing to do with people following you.. (not to mention that they went off a TON of times)

Anyhow, I digress...

Have you ever driven Road Atlanta? LOL...you are making a fool of yourself--why should I stop you?

Have I ever screwed up? You bet! However, I have never screwed up in a way that has put me, or anyone else, at physical risk. And therein lies the difference.

There is no way in hell I would ever take a pass like the Vette retard did, at that locatioon, in a DE, especially with some mullethead in a Viper right on my arse. I have only driven RA for one weekend, but even with that little track knowledge, I know better than that. It's called "judgement", and one expects a lot of it in advanced group drivers, as these guys were.

As an aside, I will bet that the Viper made a slight impact with the outside wall just after the camera angle swung past him. He was sliding too fast, on the grass, to stop before impact.

Actually I don't think he did impact. Both the Vipers were on the track during the last session if I'm not mistaken. I was giving great chase to one of them too. My lowly 280hp to their 500. They didn't seem imcompetent at during that time at all. They drove and handled the cars quite well. He/she just made a waaayy too aggressive and dumb decision trying to chase a 650hp corvette that was sick fast.

BTW Those two vipers were his and hers being towed by a massive RV.

These "DE mistake vid turned intense argument" threads are absolutely fantastic. :D

These "DE mistake vid turned intense argument" threads are absolutely fantastic. :D

The Popcorn was good also.:aroused

m

Now that i would 100% agree with........

No traction control, no Stabilitrack like the vettes, and in some of the older models, no ABS.......makes them veryhard to drive at first and easy to get into trouble

And how is any of that relevant to this post? This post is about a SRT-10 Viper, which has all of the above driving aids. Why is someone in the "advanced" run group, in a car they cannot control? You're wrong; you will continue to be wrong, so please just accept your fate, and stfu.

Have you ever driven Road Atlanta? LOL...you are making a fool of yourself--why should I stop you?

Have I ever screwed up? You bet! However, I have never screwed up in a way that has put me, or anyone else, at physical risk. And therein lies the difference.

HaHa, I am more than sure you have made stupid moves that have put people in danger and don't even realize it. Give me a brake.:rolleyes If you have ever made a pass that was close and the other guy had to slam on the brakes you put them in physical danger.... This guy just took it to the next level:lol Even the best drivers in the world have done stupid things... Lets see MS ring a bell? How about Bill A. or Boris Said.. I personally have seen them do shiet that made other drivers slam on the brakes while out at Laguna Seca. I really don't care to discuss this anymore seems you are hell bent on stereotyping people and acting like a "fool":lol

And how is any of that relevant to this post? This post is about a SRT-10 Viper, which has all of the above driving aids. Why is someone in the "advanced" run group, in a car they cannot control? You're wrong; you will continue to be wrong, so please just accept your fate, and stfu.

I don't think that a Viper has any aids. :dunno My comments were directed at the fact that people say Vipers have a high accident rate at events not about the near miss.

Of course, it is a 911. That was obvious from the beginning.

No....it's a 944 / 944 turbo / 968. The dash gives it away.

C.

http://www.charliegrafton.com/videos/viperattack.mp4

Gee, viper following vette in a late pass move at a DE going in to a corner, resulting in a loss of control.

Was Denzel driving?

-Charlie

Also - I posted the vid on corvette forums.. It seems this was a Panoz track day.. where there are no in-car instructors, regardless of how new you are to the track. :lol All that is required on the first day of the DE is a simple lead-follow so that you can learn the racing line. :lol

I don't think that a Viper has any aids. :dunno My comments were directed at the fact that people say Vipers have a high accident rate at events not about the near miss.

The newer vipers do, which is the viper in the video.

These "DE mistake vid turned intense argument" threads are absolutely fantastic. :D
absolutely:buttrock :buttrock

I'm waiting for someone to comment on the dangers of driving a de in short sleeves again...:D

http://www.charliegrafton.com/videos/viperattack.mp4

Gee, viper following vette in a late pass move at a DE going in to a corner, resulting in a loss of control.

Was Denzel driving?

-Charlie
Did anybody ever figure out what happend with that one? Speculation was a tire or suspension failure....

The newer vipers do, which is the viper in the video.

Don't think so boss. :)

That was friggin hilarious. Viper guys never were the sharpest tools in the shed, but holy hell, that was impressively stupid.

Did anybody ever figure out what happend with that one? Speculation was a tire or suspension failure....

Didn't think so, had to have been scary as fook!!:eek: He SHOT across there.

Did anybody ever figure out what happend with that one? Speculation was a tire or suspension failure....

Modded viper with twin turbos pushing out 650+ RWHP and asshat driver. He braked late, lifted and lost it. Car was fine, that time. He had previously stuffed the car and had it repaired, and later wrecked it on track at another event. The guy has another viper now, I think I remember hearing it was a coupe.

-Charlie

The newer vipers do, which is the viper in the video.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/coupes/0511_z06_gt_viper/

first paragraph

The newer vipers do, which is the viper in the video.

Wrong. All they have is ABS. No TC/Stability Control.

Don't think so boss. :)

Well you'd be thinking wrong, boss. :)

Wrong. All they have is ABS. No TC/Stability Control.

So explain to me again, how I was wrong? :confused

So explain to me again, how I was wrong? :confused

Did you look at the DAMN link?? LOOK AND LEARN!!!:stickoutt

Edit - it is in the first paragraph so it shouldn't be too hard :D

So explain to me again, how I was wrong? :confused


The new Vipers DO NOT have traction control or stability control.


Just ABS.

The new Vipers DO NOT have traction control or stability control.


Just ABS.

Lets see if he comes back with they do............ haha:lol

Did you look at the DAMN link?? LOOK AND LEARN!!!:stickoutt

Edit - it is in the first paragraph so it shouldn't be too hard :D

Right.. And Like I said, Eric, the viper master, said they are hard to drive because they dont have ABS or traction aids. I said that the viper the man was driving had ABS, and the only reason he lost control was because he ran out of talent. ;)

Right.. And Like I said, Eric, the viper master, said they are hard to drive because they dont have ABS or traction aids. I said that the viper the man was driving had ABS, and the only reason he lost control was because he ran out of talent.

This post is about a SRT-10 Viper, which has all of the above driving aids.

Maybe I am smoking something real good but looks like you said

which has all of the above driving aids

Now, please correct me if we were wrong?:confused

While I agree with the first part, the second part is pretty friggin stupid, so because someone makes more than you he's an idiot?

While I would never condemn all Viper owners, most people with track experience will agree that Vipers seem to be involved in more incidents than any other single vehicle (on a scale of course). Blame this on whatever you want...less safety gizmos, poor handling, too much power, type that would onw a Viper...whatever.

A buddy and me had a bet about a guy that showed up to Roebling in a used Viper he had just bought. Before I even saw the car on track, I said he would destroy the car on the first day, my buddy said the second day when confidence and red mist would set in. I won...the first hot lap of the second session he blew the braking zone at T1 and got airborne off that berm. Car was completely destroyed. The guy was alright, I have to say I cracked a smile when his wife AND kids were berating him in front of his busted up Viper. I thought he was going to cry.

Another thing, the inside joke/fear of many instructors is that their student will be a 19yo kid in a Viper. That's scary...youth in a car with way too much power and poor balance.

In my first race after comp school they put me and a fellow graduate in a Viper Comp in the back row even though we qualified well. It was awesome watching the Viper march to the front...he won that race by 5 seconds coming from the 20th row.

Maybe I am smoking something real good but looks like you said



Now, please correct me if we were wrong?:confused

Either way, the Eric's statement mostly eluded to the viper's lack of ABS, causing the guy to lose control, when infact, it wasnt the case. The loss of control was caused by the Viper driver's ego getting in front of his eyes, causing blurry vision, and his lack of experience, clearly evident by his passing procedure, and the outcome of the event.

Either way, the Eric's statement mostly eluded to the viper's lack of ABS, causing the guy to lose control, when infact, it wasnt the case. The loss of control was caused by the Viper driver's ego getting in front of his eyes, causing blurry vision, and his lack of experience, clearly evident by his passing procedure, and the outcome of the event.

HaHa, you can't even admit that you were wrong. Dude, let it GO.

Now that i would 100% agree with........

No traction control, no Stabilitrack like the vettes, and in some of the older models, no ABS.......makes them veryhard to drive at first and easy to get into trouble

I don't see where he said that was the problem with the Viper in that case. I think that we can all agree that the Viper driver was an ass in this case. He didn't think. I was commenting on the fact that a lot tend to go off the track based on the post above me and he just responded :dunno Looks like you just are trying to continue to e-fight.:dunno

Did anybody ever figure out what happend with that one? Speculation was a tire or suspension failure....
I met the viper guy. Story is kinda like what Charlie said. The driver had previously gone off on the right side of the track and crashed. The viper attack event was his first time out since getting the car repaired.
He felt a little pinched at the kink. Freaked out at the thought of going off again. And yanked the wheel left.
I had both drivers in a classroom where the video was mentioned. Viper guy says that was me. M3 guy that was me. First time that they met.
Joel

HaHa, I am more than sure you have made stupid moves that have put people in danger and don't even realize it. Give me a brake.:rolleyes If you have ever made a pass that was close and the other guy had to slam on the brakes you put them in physical danger....

Hahaha! Well, you'd be wrong, then.

http://www.charliegrafton.com/videos/viperattack.mp4

Gee, viper following vette in a late pass move at a DE going in to a corner, resulting in a loss of control.

Was Denzel driving?

-Charlie

LMAO...

But...but...but you are just bitter becuase the Viper owner makes more money than you do!

;)

Hahaha! Well, you'd be wrong, then.

accepted:D

^^^ huh??? ^^^

Another thing, the inside joke/fear of many instructors is that their student will be a 19yo kid in a Viper. That's scary...youth in a car with way too much power and poor balance.

I instructed at a half day customer/sponsor appreciation day (kinda like a golf outing) put on by the St. Louis Post and Gateway international. There were only about 15 or 16 cars/students and a very wide variety of cars. We randomly went down the list of names for assigning instructors to students. I was happy enough with my 944 and hopped up Mustang. Another instructor approached me about switching students. When he told me it was a 750 hp viper...I hesitated and asked what his other car was. Well, he got the viper and the supercharged GT40! I respectfully declined the viper...telling him "it may be more consistent to stay in two big HP cars!" :stickoutt I could see the fear on his face....LOL!

Oh...and there was no negotiating (from his side) on the GT40. :(

Damon in STL

^^^ huh??? ^^^

I accept that I am wrong and you in the history of race car drivers are the only one that hasn't put someone in danger. Get it ;) :D

I instructed at a half day customer/sponsor appreciation day (kinda like a golf outing) put on by the St. Louis Post and Gateway international. There were only about 15 or 16 cars/students and a very wide variety of cars. We randomly went down the list of names for assigning instructors to students. I was happy enough with my 944 and hopped up Mustang. Another instructor approached me about switching students. When he told me it was a 750 hp viper...I hesitated and asked what his other car was. Well, he got the viper and the supercharged GT40! I respectfully declined the viper...telling him "it may be more consistent to stay in two big HP cars!" :stickoutt I could see the fear on his face....LOL!

Oh...and there was no negotiating (from his side) on the GT40. :(

Damon in STL

:eek: wow talk about crummy luck!!! I would def. law the law down before i got in the car and when i was in the car.:D

Wow, you guys get worked up over this stuff....

The guy messed up, sure, but imagine how many situations NOT caught on camera have gone down just like this...


I personally get a bit burned up over the camera guy, that, to me, is the definition of arrogance.

I accept that I am wrong and you in the history of race car drivers are the only one that hasn't put someone in danger. Get it ;) :D

I was talking about at DE's, not racing. Big difference.

HaHa, I am more than sure you have made stupid moves that have put people in danger and don't even realize it. Give me a brake.:rolleyes If you have ever made a pass that was close and the other guy had to slam on the brakes you put them in physical danger.... This guy just took it to the next level:lol Even the best drivers in the world have done stupid things... Lets see MS ring a bell? How about Bill A. or Boris Said.. I personally have seen them do shiet that made other drivers slam on the brakes while out at Laguna Seca. I really don't care to discuss this anymore seems you are hell bent on stereotyping people and acting like a "fool":lol


Every driver you mentioned did those things in a competitive racing environment, NOT at a DE.

I was talking about at DE's, not racing. Big difference.


Damn, I know better than to not read the whole thread before replying...:)

It's aight. I am sure he is enjoying having fully painted himself into a corner.

The guy in the camera car sounded like Big Gay AL. "YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/slcook54/gay_al.jpg

Either way, the Eric's statement mostly eluded to the viper's lack of ABS, causing the guy to lose control, when infact, it wasnt the case. The loss of control was caused by the Viper driver's ego getting in front of his eyes, causing blurry vision, and his lack of experience, clearly evident by his passing procedure, and the outcome of the event.
The statement i made, for the record, was to your's or someones comments about all the vipers who go off track or wreck, ABS wasnt introduced into the Viper Until 2001, which means 7 years of the vipers, which is what you see most of on track are the older <2000's

So 2000 and below had NO ABS, NO TC, and NO stabilitrac like features.

And yes, the Newer 2003+ vipers have ABS also, but no VDC or anything of the sort..........

Only thing I'm saying is yes, it's unfortunate that someone with money and no driving experience can plop down $80k and have a 500Hp monster and gets no "in car safety measures to insure they are kept under control" bet it doesn't make them all idiots, just inexperienced.

Vipers are meant to be raw HP cars and its easy for people to get into trouble, even experienced drivers, it doesnt make all of them idiots. Actually contrary to it, most, if not all, of the Viper owners I've met were some of the nicest people you'll meet.


edit--- point of refernce for year by year comparisons from the horses mouth...
http://ivr.viperclub.org/features.php

BTW Those two vipers were his and hers being towed by a massive RV.

Wait, I've seen those before. I think my buddy knows them. Interesting..... I'll have to give him a call, IIRC they both had a pretty good racing resume.

... IIRC they both had a pretty good racing resume.

Which, of course, does not in any way guarantee they are good HPDE drivers :rolleyes (no offence to the many, many, many racers who are)

Modded viper with twin turbos pushing out 650+ RWHP and asshat driver. He braked late, lifted and lost it. Car was fine, that time. He had previously stuffed the car and had it repaired, and later wrecked it on track at another event. The guy has another viper now, I think I remember hearing it was a coupe.

-CharlieDoh! :eek: Will he never learn?

There was a guy in a yellow supercharged NSX a few years ago. Passed me in a brake zone at T1 at MAM. I saw it coming and got on the brakes so I didn't rear end him. Weird thing was that I carried more speed in the corner and I was in a street tired 540. Backed way off and got some separation after that....

I didn't read the entire thread, and I'm not going to, so forgive me if this has already been posted. The "camera car" driver is driving so slowly, he shouldn't be commenting on anyone elses ability to be a "driver".

Which, of course, does not in any way guarantee they are good HPDE drivers :rolleyes (no offence to the many, many, many racers who are)

Called my buddy, the couple I was thinking of owns a competition coupe and a SRT-4. So not the same.

Let me offer the possibility that the guy in the camera car was making a positive comment about the Viper driver making a save. All we hear is "... he's a driver", a cheer and clapping. It's possible. I have driven RA 15 weekends in the last 3 years, mostly with BMW but also with PCA, Audi, NASA, and one Panoz. I was in B with Panoz, but I checked the rules again last night, and the Vette was probably the last "legitimate" pass, but the braking by the Vette exacerbated the problem for the Viper. This year I did a NASA Time Trial and had my first experience at open passing, including passing and being passed in T1. The first time going into T1 at 100mph off the usual line is a bit daunting. I can understand why the driver of the Corvette may have overbraked there. Even though the turn can be taken faster than you think because of the hill after the apex, there is a sense that you're maybe going too fast to make it. As to the camera car slowing down too much: in my last session a couple of months ago an M3 did a 360 in front of me going downhill through the esses. Believe me, I slowed significantly because there was no telling where that car was going to go. The camera car driver may have done the same, and the steep hill probably made it more difficult to get back up to speed quickly. I think I know the feeling of the Viper driver. I had a driver lift coming down the hill in T12 when the checker was waved at the end of a session, forcing the driver directly in front of me to brake at the apex, when I was making my initial turn-in. I lifted and felt the back end go squirrely and decided the grass was the preferred line under the circumstances.
http://www.gavaghan.com/trackvideo/Checker%20Lift.wmv

That's nice of you to take up the cause for the Viper guy but clearly he did a number of little things wrong that nearly resulted in paintwork or worse, a full on tbone.

It's just one of a long line of incidents that paint Viper owner in a somewhat unfavorable light.

That's nice of you to take up the cause for the Viper guy but clearly he did a number of little things wrong that nearly resulted in paintwork or worse, a full on tbone.
I agree. The first error was the late pass, seemingly carrying too much speed into the corner for the line he was on and the traffic he was sure to encounter. I guess I had some sympathy/empathy for all three drivers, each of whom probably did something wrong. I know you have a lot more experience in T1 than I do, and much of that under race circumstance.

I don't know at what level DE's are in the states, but I don't considder the corvettes pass as late, he has plenty of room there and the track is wide enough.

The Viper's try of getting on the inside on a car that alreay turns in is stupid imho or he misjudged brakingdistance, which I think could very well be the case and that's way he's taking the inside, to avoid the Corvette.

I don't know at what level DE's are in the states, but I don't considder the corvettes pass as late, he has plenty of room there and the track is wide enough.

I don't think the vettes pass was too late either... especially for an advanced run group (although it greatly depends on the club running the event as to what's considered a late pass or not...) some clubs go so far as to mark the beginning and end of a passing zone with signs of cones. A rule of thumb for non-competitive events is 'pass completed and back on-line before the braking zone'

The Viper's try of getting on the inside on a car that alreay turns in is stupid imho or he misjudged brakingdistance, which I think could very well be the case and that's way he's taking the inside, to avoid the Corvette.I think the only thing the viper was looking at was the rear end of the corvette. I think he/she had a severe case of the red mist, did not have his eyes up, and the sole intent was to catch the vette... which I guess, they got what the wanted... and then some. The 'getting on the inside' was simply a case of the viper realizing the vette slowed quicker than anticipated (or the viper couldn't match the vettes braking capability) and was simply trying to avoid rear-ending the vette. There was no intended pass IMHO... the viper driver wasn't thinking that far ahead.

Do we know for certain it was an advanced run group? And not just an intermediate group late in the weekend when their instrucors had signed off on them?

Nothing in this vid (except the red M3) seems like anything you should see in an advanced group. IMHO again

I'd like to officially nominate both the P-car and V-car drivers for an Ass-Clown award. The Corvette driver's actions can be forgiven mostly. You can even see that he realized the Viper wasn't slowing as quickly as he should and the vette makes a slight move to the left just at the last second, helping to prevent this from being a metal to metal incident. I don't think it was a case of brake checking... I think it was a case of the vette realizing they took a pass maybe too late, and over compensated in the braking, trying to get all the braking done before turn in (which on that turn, I would think trail braking would not be advised)

Whatever.

Were I riding in the Vette's right seat, I would have given him an earful for an inappropriately late pass. With the speed differential between him & the red 944 camera car, there is NO EXCUSE for not getting the pass done much earlier in that straightaway.

The Viper was definitely accelerating to beat the camera car, and pass them before the turn. But, the Corvette got the pass, then realized that he was going to fast, nailed the brake, and the Viper was still accelerating towards the rear end of the Corvette because he was trying to pass.

I don't doubt that the Corvettes pass, in Group A was out of line. The Viper on the other hand... yes. He should have been able to judge that he didn't have the time to out accelerate, brake, and turn.





Either way, the guy with the camera in his car is a complete asshole. I don't care what a jackass the Viper driver is. Either way, they're at a "learning" event, not an open race, so he should have had a little more sympathy.

Whatever.

Were I riding in the Vette's right seat, I would have given him an earful for an inappropriately late pass. With the speed differential between him & the red 944 camera car, there is NO EXCUSE for not getting the pass done much earlier in that straightaway.

Yes, but how can you judge by that clip what the distance between the Corvette and the 944 was when they were running on the straight?

Or do you mean back down and pass him on the next straight, that would be easy as well.

The camera car driver may have done the same, and the steep hill probably made it more difficult to get back up to speed quickly. [/url]

Maybe he was too busy clapping and yelling instead of downshifting to second and checking his mirrors. The guy acted like an a$$. $0.02 :nono

I think the Porsche, Corvette, and Viper drivers all suffered from brain fade from getting schooled by that red M3.

I think the Porsche, Corvette, and Viper drivers all suffered from brain fade from getting schooled by that red M3.

:lol

when I first watched the vid I thought they were on the warmup lap because the white car was SOOOOO slow, and even the P-car passed him easily. But then I didn't see them pass the starter's station (or maybe I missed it), so I guess it wasn't the warmup lap. Did they have a wide disparity of driving talent in that run group?

Cool down laps. Most of them are street cars you know. Some on street tires still which can be easy to overheat.

I don't think the Vette brake checked anyone. The camera car pointed by the Vette & Viper. However, the Vette should have waved it off, as it was too close to the end of the straight approaching T1.

But the retard took the pass, and then almost ran out of talent when T1 appeared.

And the Viper moron REALLY ran out of talent by trying to tag along with the Vette idiot, WAY too close to T1.

Frankly, I am amazed that the Viper didn't hit the T1 corner station.

The question is did the camera guy give a point by to the Viper driver? If not, I'd understand the anger from the camera guy. The Vette pass was ok, and he braked a little more than normal just because he was offline (remember these are not racers - just advanced students.) The Viper didn't brake mid-turn - he was on his brakes continously and had to turn his wheel to avoid hitting the Vette that he misjudged. Regardless, the Viper should have never taken the pass.

This Vid sucked for 5 pages.

I'm not interested unless sheet metal is getting bent. Lets get a better vid posted next time.

This Vid sucked for 5 pages.

I'm not interested unless sheet metal is getting bent. Lets get a better vid posted next time.

SHADDAP...


http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/fmj.jpg

This Vid sucked for 5 pages.

I'm not interested unless sheet metal is getting bent. Lets get a better vid posted next time.

If it happened during a race, I'd agree - it was a harmless spinoff. However, the level of agression in a HPDE is what warranted discussion.

This Vid sucked for 5 pages.

I'm not interested unless sheet metal is getting bent. Lets get a better vid posted next time.

Time to bust out a few clips of Matt Richmond's greatest hits?

SHADDAP...


http://dls.fmjmotorsports.com/videos/images/fmj.jpg

hey, there's a fellow honda technician in there.

Vipers are decent cars, but not sure if it deserves this caliber of garage, which was specifically built for it...

http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/image_uploads/cimg2221b_large_.jpg

http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/image_uploads/cimg2212_large_.jpg

http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/image_uploads/cimg2223_large_.jpg

That guy is clearly a Dodge fan...bless his heart.

that is not a garage....it is a display case.

I think the Porsche, Corvette, and Viper drivers all suffered from brain fade from getting schooled by that red M3.

actually, that red bmw is a bmwcca JP 325is. can't make out the number on the trunk.

ok, someone fess up...which club racer is it?:cool

:lol

when I first watched the vid I thought they were on the warmup lap because the white car was SOOOOO slow, and even the P-car passed him easily. But then I didn't see them pass the starter's station (or maybe I missed it), so I guess it wasn't the warmup lap. Did they have a wide disparity of driving talent in that run group?
The white car pitted under the Suzuki bridge, which is why he was slow, and I think he gave a proper signal as there is something sticking out the window. The start/finish line id at the Pirelli bridge, but Panoz Track Days has the flag at pit out, near the braking zone for T1. Their handout and classroom session clearly says: "Passes must be completed prior to entering the braking-zone at the end of the straight." The Corvette just barely accomplishes that, meaning the Viper was making a late pass. The Corvette may have braked a bit early, but one can't be certain because he may have been going faster than I can attain on that straight. The Panoz handout also instructs the passee to: "Be predictable (stay on line) and breathe off the throttle to allow the pass to be completed before entering the braking-zone." Hard to tell if the camera car did the latter, but he did stay on line. Panoz has three groups: C for first timers, B for those who have driven the track, and A for those with more experience. I had driven Road Atlanta 5 times when I did the Panoz and was placed in B group because I had not done a previous event with them, and it was the right place for me. The experience level in the A group is probably fairly similar, but that says little or nothing about the skill level or driver behavior. :nono