This is a question for all the internet warriors or number crunchers out there who think they want to take a crack at it.

*Can I use the word crack without inciting a riot? It sounds like CRAC, so I'd better be careful, no?*

I'm sure there are people out there polarized on either side of the following question, that have opinions and will post without numbers... I'm not sure that there is a way to actually answer the question in a definitive way.

But, it seems in reflection that there is a bit of a change in the overall tone of BMW CR in the past couple years... not just on the internet battlefield, but also at the track.

Does anyone have some hard and fast data that would support that the change to points system has brought on higher participation, or are there numbers that might show that it has brought about a decline in participation.

I rather suspect that economics (ie money in our pockets) plays a huge role.

I have a bias of course (who doesn't?), but I'm curious what BMW CR license holders who have actually participated in some races at the track in the past years have to say about this.

(Let me point out to the masses, that the vast majority of BMW CR license holders do not read this forum, and are probably not even aware of its existence. BMW CR has not yet built its own forum, though I think we will eventually. That having been said, I'm quite aware that the BMW CR do not have an EASY and quick way to actually overhaul the system enough to bring about changes as massive as what I'm asking people to consider here. We have a functional benevalent dictatorship that for the most part works well, and it would be too clumsy to actually allow the wholesale voting that would tear up the fabric of our rules on a frequent basis. That having been said, I sort of view my role on CRAC as facilitating conversations such as this.) heck, I'm just curious too.

Hey Alex, from doing the points for the last 3 years I can say there are definitely some guys who will travel to more races specifically for points. It is not a huge number though. I think for the most part most people have a good idea of what their schedule is and are not too worried about the points. Those that are really chasing the points will also plan to attend premier events more heavily. I know I used to. Just to use Mike Akard as an example I think he would probably not bother looking for a DMod car for rental at Roebling if he wasn't so close in the points battle. He can comment himself but I suspect that is the reason he wants to find a rental. I think you will definitely lose some racers if you get rid of the points system. Just my gut feeling I don't have any hard numbers for you. I think it would all be a bit boring without the points, even though we race for fun, we all for the most part have that competitive spirit that is part of racing. Adding Spec E36 would not make much sense without a points system. I see the average Spec E36 guy being very competitive and is looking for a place to race a BMW in an extremely competitive format, points included.

I'm not a CR license holder, but from observing the goings on here in this forum, there is clearly a lack of consensus regarding what BMWCCA Club Racing is all about.

The interesting question is whether this is just the case for a few participants at the margin or if it is the result of a larger organizational identity crisis. And in either case, to what extent does the "points" system contribute to or ameliorate the problem?

Hey Alex, from doing the points for the last 3 years I can say there are definitely some guys who will travel to more races specifically for points. It is not a huge number though. I think for the most part most people have a good idea of what their schedule is and are not too worried about the points. Those that are really chasing the points will also plan to attend premier events more heavily. I know I used to. Just to use Mike Akard as an example I think he would probably not bother looking for a DMod car for rental at Roebling if he wasn't so close in the points battle. He can comment himself but I suspect that is the reason he wants to find a rental. I think you will definitely lose some racers if you get rid of the points system. Just my gut feeling I don't have any hard numbers for you. I think it would all be a bit boring without the points, even though we race for fun, we all for the most part have that competitive spirit that is part of racing. Adding Spec E36 would not make much sense without a points system. I see the average Spec E36 guy being very competitive and is looking for a place to race a BMW in an extremely competitive format, points included.

On target! ;)

People want to win and at the end of the year it's nice to have a clear champion of a given class. The point system is necessary in my opinion and safety shouldn't be affected by that.

I've raced at pboc, nasa, and bmwcca and clearly the racers take it more serious in cca. By serious I mean car prep, driver coaching, racers willing to travel, etc. Unfortunately 'serious' also means very agressive and dangerous driving, cheating, endless bickering and e-battles.

It's a culture thing...I can't really explain but perhaps those with more cca experience can. It seems like cca racers think a little more highly of themselves than other club racers. Very little humility and type A behavior on and off the track. It's entertaining to watch but it's really tragic since at the end of the day we need to pack up and head home to our families. Imagine if an 'e-battle' manifests into an on track battle and more than feelings get hurt.

Again, anybody looking to blame the points system is just trying to cover up the real issue. There is a problem in bmwcca club racing and it's from the very top right down to the rookie racer. My only recommendation I suppose is to race with other groups and watch how they do it. Take those lessons back and share them with bmwcca people.

There are so many factors that affect participation at a race, I think it would be very difficult to track any increase/decrease in participation to any changes in the points rules.

Biggest factors for participation at any event seem to be the location (proximity to higher number of racers) and level of the track (racers desire to drive it), followed by whether an event is a higher points event or not, possible bad weather and time of year (very early or late season races may be lightly attended).

So the existance of a points system is a factor in racer participation, but just one factor.

Economic cycles play a part, and I wouldn't even speculate a guess at how those are working, but for example, racing in the Pacific Region seems to be picking up the last couple of years with more guys coming. There's probably a half dozen things or more that are contributing to that trend.

People want to win and at the end of the year it's nice to have a clear champion of a given class. The point system is necessary in my opinion and safety shouldn't be affected by that.

I've raced at pboc, nasa, and bmwcca and clearly the racers take it more serious in cca. By serious I mean car prep, driver coaching, racers willing to travel, etc. Unfortunately 'serious' also means very agressive and dangerous driving, cheating, endless bickering and e-battles.

It's a culture thing...I can't really explain but perhaps those with more cca experience can. It seems like cca racers think a little more highly of themselves than other club racers. Very little humility and type A behavior on and off the track. It's entertaining to watch but it's really tragic since at the end of the day we need to pack up and head home to our families. Imagine if an 'e-battle' manifests into an on track battle and more than feelings get hurt.

Again, anybody looking to blame the points system is just trying to cover up the real issue. There is a problem in bmwcca club racing and it's from the very top right down to the rookie racer. My only recommendation I suppose is to race with other groups and watch how they do it. Take those lessons back and share them with bmwcca people.

Those are some interesting comments/observations. I have wondered a couple things myself occasionally.

1. Is part of the internet battling due to our organization being so much smaller such that everyone knows everyone else? I mean SCCA/NASA are huge comparatively, not sure about PCA. I mean with CCA there are only a couple places to find this good stuff but with SCCA/NASA there could be tons of "small" groups out there that are larger than our entire group put together.

2. I started racing in 2001 but basically have not raced the past 2 years. I thought for a long time that a lot of the change we are seeing now has been in the last 2 years. But now I wonder if it's just because I'm on the other side of the fence. For example, I always thought that there was rarlely contact in BMW CR because I was never involved in it (well, not never, twice that I recall). Now it seems that every race has lots of contact, even if minor. Of course since I am part of the team that has to look at contact incidents perhaps it seems like a lot of contact only because I see every one of them (rather every report incident).

Seems that maybe a lot of the perspective of it all is just that, perspective. I really don't know but the view from this side sure is different from what I remember as a competitor.

I wish I knew someone who is not only a NASA or SCCA official but also a CCA official, that would be some interesting information to be had I bet.

3. I wonder if this lack of humility that you speak of is again due to the size of our program. Perhaps BMW racers are just a concentrated group of that personality type. Dunno.

4. I think you are right probably, the points system is not really the root of the problem but I don't know what it is either.

Jack, why don't you inquire of Bud Merrill. He has worked closely with PBOC, NASA, and BMWCCA. But I think that if you stand in front of a mirror and look directly into it, you may find the answer in part to the number 4 above. Billy Jack Ethridge

Runoffs?

Jack, why don't you inquire of Bud Merrill. He has worked closely with PBOC, NASA, and BMWCCA.

That is excellent advice. Bud is the pinnacle example of gentleman racing here in the SE and has a lot of experience with groups that race and otherwise function well.

The statistics are indisputable. The points system has increased participation and, more importantly, it has actually made BMW CCA Club Racing a NATIONAL racing organization by motivating people to travel across regional boundaries to race. Prior to the points system, CR was almost exclusively a regional or trans-regional racing venue. People raced in their own region and in, some cases, closeby events in neighboring regions. You just didn't see Pacific racers in the North Atlantic races or viceversa until the points system.

Fuel prices have, IMO, a lot to do with some waning participation. $3 gas has made towing a much pricier activity. However, I also believe the revamping of the points system to dilute the value of the premier events is THE major factor. The points attraction of the premier events is dramatically reduced and it shows up in spades in participation in premier/national events. Combined with the price of fuel, it's just not often worth the hassle and cost of a long tow to hit those events like it was in the past.

Just my opinion ... I could be wrong.

Regarding increased contact, I believe driver attitude has EVERYTHING to do with it. We've seen posts on this forum from rookie racers doing idiotic things that are dangerous and simply unimaginable in CR ... blocking and brake checking a following car on a straight and intentionally trying to intimidate another racer on the WARMUP lap? Infreakincredible. And stupid enough to actually brag about it on a public forum ... even more incredible!?!?!?

I also believe the stewards have a LOT to do with setting the tone. I've seen remarkably blase drivers' meetings where it lasts a very few minutes and is essentially a "don't hit anybody, I don't like paperwork" thing. That is, again MO, unacceptable and gives an impression of a laissez faire kind of approach that, I believe, sets a tone that affects how the racers think on track. Stewards are allowed the discretion in permitting offenders in incidents to continue to race in the event. To counteract this "new mentality", I think CR should be tougher on at-fault drivers in multicar incidents and terminate their weekend. BTW, I'm pretty sure the points penalty for at-fault drivers in incidents was reduced in the past year or two. I'd like to see the penalty to be near draconian as a second level motivator.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the points penalty for at-fault drivers in incidents was reduced in the past year or two. I'd like to see the penalty to be near draconian as a second level motivator.

It has never changed. Any driver with a 13/13 of 6 months or greater loses all points from the weekend (including particpation pts) and gets an additional -20 taken from their best 8.

Fuel prices have, IMO, a lot to do with some waning participation. $3 gas has made towing a much pricier activity. However, I also believe the revamping of the points system to dilute the value of the premier events is THE major factor. The points attraction of the premier events is dramatically reduced and it shows up in spades in participation in premier/national events. Combined with the price of fuel, it's just not often worth the hassle and cost of a long tow to hit those events like it was in the past.


In trying to find the balance between having racers really support the premier events, while at the same keeping some incentive to attend the normal events, I thought the points re-struture for this past season was a good move and had the balance of incentive about right between national/premier and regular events.

Now, I believe for '07, the participation points will drop from 50 (10 events) down to 25 (5 events) and I think that is a bad move. It shifts the incentive back more toward the premier/national events and I think it may drop participation in the regular regional events.

It has never changed. Any driver with a 13/13 of 6 months or greater loses all points from the weekend (including particpation pts) and gets an additional -20 taken from their best 8.

I do know it was discussed. Glad to see that the penalty is still a significant one.

In trying to find the balance between having racers really support the premier events, while at the same keeping some incentive to attend the normal events, I thought the points re-struture for this past season was a good move and had the balance of incentive about right between national/premier and regular events.

I understand the motive, but the effect has been clear and relegates a lot of cross-regional competition to internet bantering (east vs west).

I do believe the O'Fest race should have special points status of some kind over and above that of the usual Premier event. Ditto on the North American Challenge Races.

I understand the motive, but the effect has been clear and relegates a lot of cross-regional competition to internet bantering (east vs west).

I do believe the O'Fest race should have special points status of some kind over and above that of the usual Premier event. Ditto on the North American Challenge Races.

There is a discussion on the CR list at the present time about '07 O'fest race to be held at MSR. Evidently, MSR is expensive to rent. We are concerned after '06 poor turnout at Gingerman that the event will not break-even. I just submitted a suggestion to make it a triple points event. If it were triple points, then O'fest would be an event where anyone chasing the points title would almost have to attend....thus almost assuring significant participation level! Doesn't this make sense as something to consider?

I just submitted a suggestion to make it a triple points event. If it were triple points, then O'fest would be an event where anyone chasing the points title would almost have to attend....thus almost assuring significant participation level! Doesn't this make sense as something to consider?

I don't think this is a good idea, what if you can't attend? You could potentially be screwed in the championship because of one event, not a good idea.

I don't think this is a good idea, what if you can't attend? You could potentially be screwed in the championship because of one event, not a good idea.

So count best 8 events for O'fest attendees and Best 10 events for others or some mathematical system that rewards folks for going to an event where they can potentially get more points that anywhere else, but not cripple them toward winning the championship if they don't....by requiring them to go to even more events to make-up the points. That way, either choice BMW CCA CR wins through increased participation. Or at least it seems that way to me.
IYO, would this work?

I don't think this is a good idea, what if you can't attend? You could potentially be screwed in the championship because of one event, not a good idea.

I agree - I think the double points is enough of an incentive for anyone in the points chase. Now, IIRC, the event can be up to 2 or 3 double points races, so that should be plenty of points incentive. Just make sure the event is the max number of races (that should also be more incentive to attend).

The problem with making it too huge points-wise is that O'fest is not a centrally located race every year, so for years where it is on the East or West Coast, it would be a huge advantage for racers close to the event.

So count best 8 events for O'fest attendees and Best 10 events for others or some mathematical system that rewards folks for going to an event where they can potentially get more points that anywhere else, but not cripple them toward winning the championship if they don't....by requiring them to go to even more events to make-up the points. That way, either choice BMW CCA CR wins through increased participation. Or at least it seems that way to me.
IYO, would this work?

Thats too complex in my opinion, you would have to put some serious thought in to how that would actually work. I would just have 3 races at 150% that would be the same benefit of going to 3 local events and a pretty good incentive. You could consider 1 race with double points but again I wouldn't go crazy with point incentives because you would weight this one event too heavily.

I do believe the O'Fest race should have special points status of some kind over and above that of the usual Premier event. Ditto on the North American Challenge Races.

Well, they do. Simon can tell the specifics for sure, but there can be more races of higher points (over 100%) at both events (O'fest and NA Challenge) than a Regional Premier event. And now with participation points dropped to 25 (5 events), the incentive will shift slightly to doing the fewer big events.

But again, I'm seeing things from here in the Pacific Region where it seemed like every race was well attened. So I see the benefit of making normal events have one 150% race.


I think part of the balancing act they try to perform is also the one of racers that do many events vs. the guys that can't do as many due to travel budget. So I would suggest this:

For Regional titles: 8 best races IN REGION (no national wild card races counting) with 25 participation points max.

For National Titles: 10 best races anywhere and 50 participation points max.

Thats too complex in my opinion, you would have to put some serious thought in to how that would actually work. I would just have 3 races at 150% that would be the same benefit of going to 3 local events and a pretty good incentive. You could consider 1 race with double points but again I wouldn't go crazy with point incentives because you would weight this one event too heavily.

The combo idea you mention, 3 races with 2 at 150% and one at 200% should be a big boost, yet still give room for racers to miss the event and remain competitive toward the championship. That one 200% race would go a long way toward getting the increased participation because in the case of two racers having 8 class wins in feature race-level points races, the racer with the win in the 200% race vs the one with all of his/her wins at 150% will be the overall points winner. Works pretty well in theory. Good idea Simon!

tracks have something to do with participation as well... famous tracks always get more people showing up who are willing to make a trip to race at mid ohio, road america, mosport, etc. actually it would be nice to have a bmwcca race at road america come to think of it. to keep cost down combine driver school w/ a race weekend, it was done at mosport and a ton of cars showed up and cost was very reasonable.

drew

tracks have something to do with participation as well... famous tracks always get more people showing up who are willing to make a trip to race at mid ohio, road america, mosport, etc. actually it would be nice to have a bmwcca race at road america come to think of it. to keep cost down combine driver school w/ a race weekend, it was done at mosport and a ton of cars showed up and cost was very reasonable.

drew

I think Windy City does the Road America events don't they? If I recall correctly they have almost zero interest in putting on club races.

-Carlos.

I think Windy City does the Road America events don't they? If I recall correctly they have almost zero interest in putting on club races.

-Carlos.

Yes the last time we had a club race there was in conjunction with Midwest Council. The turnout was low as well and I don't think that would change that much.

MSR IS cheap; dirt cheap compared to bigger name tracks ...

and so is the hosting chapter! :alright

Well, the incentive to be there IS the points. With a 10 race limit, it's unlikely that event alone would project a mid-level runner into the championship. Not significantly different than missing a premier event.

Personally, I still like the mano-y-mano Championship races as was done the 1st year of the points system. Do it at the new Heartland Park track towards the end of the season. Not much home track advantage since the location is new and the racer population in the area is pretty thin ... almost smack dab in the middle of the country geographically. A near perfect scenario.

Well, the incentive to be there IS the points. With a 10 race limit, it's unlikely that event alone would project a mid-level runner into the championship. Not significantly different than missing a premier event.

Personally, I still like the mano-y-mano Championship races as was done the 1st year of the points system. Do it at the new Heartland Park track towards the end of the season. Not much home track advantage since the location is new and the racer population in the area is pretty thin ... almost smack dab in the middle of the country geographically. A near perfect scenario.

Actually, with championships based on lower numbers of races (like 8) and participation points going down, there is a definite advantage to going to the biggest events - also because the biggest races will have the most potential bonus points for the winner. We are already planning on making one or two trips to events like the O'fest and NA Challenge race.

Now having said that, one of the reasons I like things based on more races as opposed to a big showdown type of event - and some people have posted about a perception that the racing is getting a little more aggressive/physical on the track - is that no one single event is do or die. I think things can be competitive enough as they are - we had a situation at PIR in the Oct. NA Challenge race where there was an incident between two cars both near the top of points in class and I'm sure they both wanted that race. If there is some kind of runoffs or showdown for titles, I think we'll have SCCA type racing all over the track and may as well throw the 13/13 rules out the window.

I do like the idea of having the NA challenge race at some location every year like Heartland or Road America. Or what they had this past year (one on the East and one out West) was pretty good, too.

Alex,

P-PAYBACK (MONEY FOR SERIES CHAMPS)
P-POINTS TO QUALIFY FOR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP (MONEY RACE)
R-RULES
C-COMPLIANCE

I bet that would drive attendance.

:cool

Ken Arutunian