I was driving north of Atlanta today, racing an E46 M3, and I think I may have done some engine damage. When I got off the highway, the car was missing on 1 cylinder. I pulled the plugs to find cylinder #5 fouled. I replaced the plug and it was still missing. It had spark and the cylinder wasn't completely dead, so I continued on to see if it just needed to blow excess fuel out of the cylinder. The miss got worse, so I pulled off to check the plug and found the electrode bent. I am still pretending to myself that I may have accidently done that while installing the plug.

I got the car towed to the dealer in Knoxville where it will be diagnosed tomorrow. All signs point to a disaster. I don't think I can afford to fix a major engine problem, especially since I was laid off earlier this week. What do you guys think this car would be worth with a bad motor? The car is in great shape otherwise and has 140K miles.

ill trade u my E34. =)

Im sorry man. Pick up a used S38. They are much cheaper than a rebuild.

How did you do against the M3?

Nick

If you have a '93, don't you have the S38B38? Ouch, that makes finding an S38B36 look like child's play.

Make sure they start with compression and leakdown tests, and that you can see the results before you make any big decisions.

If he has a US spec car. He has a 3.6. M5's were imported 91-93 equipped solely with S38B36 motors.

The S38B38 was never imported to the US. All examples are individually federalized cars.

That would depend on if it were a euro that was federalized or North american import as the 3.8 was not standard here.

The parts would be worth more than the complete vehicle sans engine.

Wow that sucks. I would do numerouse test to see if seriouse damage was made.

It is the 3.6. I was about even with the M3.

The car is at the dealer now and they are working through it. Where would I find a used engine?

That sucks, like everyone has said it would probably be cheaper to get a used S38 then to rebuild your S38. I'm still amazed on how much these are to rebuild, lol.

try m5board.com it is mostly European but there are a good supplies over there as opposed to here.

Guys, I know you want to make his day brighter, but an S38 is HARD to come buy. Engine work on an S38 is going to cost you more than the car is worth.

car-parts.com shows 3 available ($8k, $9k and no price listed on the third).

Good luck- breaking that motor sucks.

I figure I can part it out and get at least what I owe on it. I'll look at some engines if and when I get confirmation of major damage.

Hey. I had a website with the prices of used motors, specifically those from europe. They were roughly $5,000 for the 3.6 and pushing $8,000 for the 3.8. I cant find the bookmark I made for the site. Ill keep looking.

Nick

HEY! dependent upon what you owe I may be interested in buying it as is. PM me a price if you decide to sell it.

color, pics? If you part out, I might be interested in some stuff

Well that sucks.

You have a few options.

You could bastardize the car and throw a 540 motor in it until you can fix your S38...if you want to fix it.

I'm surprised that it kept up with an E46 M3....my M3 would destroy my M5.

Your motor might not be completely gone, you might be able to get away without a complete rebuild.

Lastly, I've been meaning to look into custom parts vs. factory parts for S38 rebuilds. It seems that the cost of the stock parts ($600 per piston) would be more than having better custom parts made.

I wouldn't write off everything yet. The most expensive part of a S38 rebuild is the head. If your head/valves are ok, then you could theoreticaly get it running ok without much trouble, although it will still easily break the 1k mark to fix it. Of course, if you actually did toast things, then a rebuild could range from 4k for a shady rebuild or a DIY to 15k if you got a Metric Mechanic rebuild.

Find out exactly what is wrong before making too many choices.

\
I'm surprised that it kept up with an E46 M3....my M3 would destroy my M5.

Are you sure about that?

So any updates before people start with the dibs on parts.

Are you sure about that?

Why wouldn't it? More power and less weight.

Why wouldn't it? More power and less weight.
His m3 only has 240hp and the m5 has much more than that :confused

The guy I quoted was talking about HIS e36 m3, not the e46 m3 the OP was talking about.

e34 m5 > e36 m3

Mine has a Dinan chip and seemed to be faster than it should be.

I just got the call. Something ended up inside the cylinder and broke some stuff. The compression is 13 psi on cyl 5. I am going to get the car back and take the head off to see the extent of the damage. It is probably a very small piece of metal since it wasn't making much noise.

Do these pistons have sleeves?

start searching EBAY.DE youll find what you need.
Sounds like valve damage to me from something in the combustin chamber. WHy else would the electrode be bent uless you threw the rod (from what I understand this can be one of the hardest things to do on a stock M motor), or ???. let us know what you find.

The E34 M5 has awesome high-end performance. I dont doubt it. It will hang with modern sports cars above 70mph. Its all about working the S38. A 3.91 rear end does help.

The heads, as Xatlas said, are the problem when rebuilding. The usual engine failure is the result of valve-to-piston contact of some sort, either from the valve dropping into the cylinder, the piston slapping a valve, or the timing chain guides failing, causing the chain to go slack, which causes massive valve-to-piston contact. The usual aftermath is a busted up head. Heads add $3-6k to your cost, and a $3k head usually needs to be rebuilt. This is why I am a proponent of rebuilding the S38 head at a reasonable interval. I would much rather not have a failure from the head.

The bottom end of the S38 is solid as hell. The only problems that result from bottom end failure are the results of too many revs. The long crank of an I6, especially a big 6 like the S38, cannot handle the primary harmonic resonance created by high revs. A specially built and blueprinted crank could handle more revs, such as a SCAT crank. The maintenance required here is simply to check the bearings. It isnt difficult to replace the bearings.

I would also reserve your judgments till you actually know what the problem is. You would know if a valve dropped into the cylinder or if the piston made contact with the valve. The noise generated would be very noticable and specific. I think you may have a problem with #5 cylinder, it sounds more along the lines of a ignition problem, and the spark plug electrode being an issue of adrenaline. There might be a different problem, but I dont see the piston suddenly achieving 2mm in stroke and slapping the electrode unless you improperly installed it (highly possible due to the lack of a new crush ring) or if there was some sort of mechanical failure in the cylinder (though I still maintain you would hear it).

Mine has a Dinan chip and seemed to be faster than it should be.

I just got the call. Something ended up inside the cylinder and broke some stuff. The compression is 13 psi on cyl 5. I am going to get the car back and take the head off to see the extent of the damage. It is probably a very small piece of metal since it wasn't making much noise.

Do these pistons have sleeves?


Hmm, odd. What exactly is broken? Your head will need a rebuild/refinishing on that cylinder and the piston need to be replaced. The metal object will no doubt have pitted both. The cylinder is not sleeved.

The guy I quoted was talking about HIS e36 m3, not the e46 m3 the OP was talking about.

Todd has an E46 M3.

I would cross post this on www.m5board.com (http://www.m5board.com) to get opinions there...lots of e34 expertise on that board. Hope it's not too gut-wrenchingly expensive....yikes!

Todd has an E46 M3.
Weird, it says he has a '95 m3 in his profile, but an '01 m3 in his sig :confused

Anyhoo...

Hmm, odd. What exactly is broken? Your head will need a rebuild/refinishing on that cylinder and the piston need to be replaced. The metal object will no doubt have pitted both. The cylinder is not sleeved.

Yeah, that does seem to be the absolute minimum required. I would also suggest having as small an overbore as possible, to reduce the extra power output of that cylinder versus the others, as that kind of imbalance could cause early crank bearing failure.

Sounds like a dropped valve. I broke a spring at 161k so I avoided any real damage and did stock rebuild with one over factory pistons. $13k parts and labor. If you bought all the parts yourself you might be ablel to save a couple of grand. A DIY rebuild could be done for $6-7$k I think. I have now put nearly another 100k on the car so it was worth it to me.

Mine has a Dinan chip and seemed to be faster than it should be.

I just got the call. Something ended up inside the cylinder and broke some stuff. The compression is 13 psi on cyl 5. I am going to get the car back and take the head off to see the extent of the damage. It is probably a very small piece of metal since it wasn't making much noise.

Do these pistons have sleeves?

Damn.

Weird, it says he has a '95 m3 in his profile, but an '01 m3 in his sig :confused

Anyhoo...

Yeah, I need to update that.

I had an E36, and replaced it with an E46.

And for the record, I think that my E34 M5 *might* have outrun my 95 M3, but it would have been really close.

The E34 is a powerful car, but I honestly don't regard it as terribly fast in a 1/4 mile race. It's too heavy and has too little torque.

Yeah, that does seem to be the absolute minimum required. I would also suggest having as small an overbore as possible, to reduce the extra power output of that cylinder versus the others, as that kind of imbalance could cause early crank bearing failure.

Yeah, definetly. If the object is small enough (Im guessing the diagnosis was done by a competent shop using a borescope), then maybe the cylinder could be ever so slightly honed.

I dont think it was a valve that dropped into the cylinder, mainly due to the lack of noise observed by the OP. If a valve dropped into the cylinder, there would be definite noise unless the pieces lodged into the piston, head, and block, but the OP said it was a small object, and a valve is not a small object.

The E34 is a powerful car, but I honestly don't regard it as terribly fast in a 1/4 mile race. It's too heavy and has too little torque.

Agree with all of the above. 1/4 drag racing is dumb with the E34 M5 (even when I see the turbo S38s). Heavy at 3800lbs and torque is not so hot. It is an autobahn bomber and it loves high-speed encounters.

Are you sure about that?

i recently drove my friends E46 M3, that car with out a doubt would destroy my 3.8L M5

I am going to pick the car up some time this week. I am going to try to remove whatever is in the cylinder with a magnet so I know how screwed it is..

How much do you guys think I can recover if I part it out? What are the components that I can get some money for? I don't want to do that to a car this rare, but I also am not really in a position to do anything else. I need money to buy an E39 528, which is what I was looking for when I bought the M5.

I'll post updates when I have them so that maybe the community can learn from my misfortune.

if it comes to parting it again at least let me make you an offer on it first. Is the car in ft. wayne?

Anyone is open to make an offer, but it would have to be pretty good for me to accept it before I figure out exactly what is wrong with the car since there is a slim chance I can get it to run again for less than a million bucks. No matter what happens, the car will probably be up for sale. I was really looking for a daily driver when I bought it and I realize that this car isn't the best for that.

I would much prefer to sell the car to someone who is going to make it run again rather than turn it into a pile of parts in my garage.

It looks like I am going to Knoxville tomorrow to pick up the car and tow it to Louisville. It is unlikely that I will tow the car to Ft. Wayne.

Dont part it out, thats rediculous

I dont know about the s38 but geez, its just a 4v per cylinder straight six. Its a common design, yes its an M motor, but not exoic compared to modern engines.

600 a piston is a lot, but thats why you dont buy a whole set, replace as needed


how much can an M gasket be? 50% more than a normal one?

WHy would "M: head work cost any more than any other 4vper cylinder engine? Theres some pretty exotic designs out there anymore?

It cost me, without replacing pistons, machine work included, exactly to the letter $2200 dollars from bow to stern to completely rebuild my m30b35. Thats including EVERYTHING. battery, hoses, hose clamps, fluids, fliters, power steering hoses, belts, almost all new bolts everywhere, everything everything everything. New injectors, the works.

I dont see why, without replacing the pistons, rebuilding the S38b36 yourself following the bentley and TIS to the letter, should cost more than 4000

going in and replacing one piston, the gaskets, and fixing the head shouldnt be more than 1500


Do not just rip the head off the s38. Get a manual, a bentley, or TIS printout or CD, and do it to the letter in an orderly and unhurried fashion. Hell, you could fix the damn Space Station using that method.

Good luck, and dont despair

the vultures will be out soon.


I hope it's not broken and you can keep it.

although I would be able to trailer it (I can also put you in touch with a friend who hauls cars on his return trips if you need to transort it as well), I don't think I'd have a non insulting offer for you, as much as I wish I did.

What is a non insulting offer on an e34 M5 with a bad engine?
Heres what I think a fair offer is...10K for a running one in good shape
5 thousand for one that needs an engine
THink of it, you are getting an M
worse case scenario, as they said, throw in an m30 for a while. The intakes and exhausts I bet anything will bolt up to it, with a schrick cam, could be fun, when you have money fix the other one

Turbo m30 in there and you have your M5 back.

What is a non insulting offer on an e34 M5 with a bad engine?
Heres what I think a fair offer is...10K for a running one in good shape


10K for one in good shape???:confused

What is a non insulting offer on an e34 M5 with a bad engine?
Heres what I think a fair offer is...10K for a running one in good shape


Are you high? :shifty

Are you high? :shifty

that would be nice

ok, say 15 got low mileage example

Dont part it out, thats rediculous

I dont know about the s38 but geez, its just a 4v per cylinder straight six. Its a common design, yes its an M motor, but not exoic compared to modern engines.

600 a piston is a lot, but thats why you dont buy a whole set, replace as needed


how much can an M gasket be? 50% more than a normal one?

WHy would "M: head work cost any more than any other 4vper cylinder engine? Theres some pretty exotic designs out there anymore?

It cost me, without replacing pistons, machine work included, exactly to the letter $2200 dollars from bow to stern to completely rebuild my m30b35. Thats including EVERYTHING. battery, hoses, hose clamps, fluids, fliters, power steering hoses, belts, almost all new bolts everywhere, everything everything everything. New injectors, the works.

I dont see why, without replacing the pistons, rebuilding the S38b36 yourself following the bentley and TIS to the letter, should cost more than 4000

going in and replacing one piston, the gaskets, and fixing the head shouldnt be more than 1500


Do not just rip the head off the s38. Get a manual, a bentley, or TIS printout or CD, and do it to the letter in an orderly and unhurried fashion. Hell, you could fix the damn Space Station using that method.

Good luck, and dont despair

I AGREE , don't make a big deal of the "M" part of the engine , it's just an engine , take it out , fix it as needed and drive or sell the car.

The part that makes it an M IS THE ENGINE. M parts are scarce as are gasket sets for rebuild. Supply makes it expensive to rebuild. Search the web and you find that you can't do it cheap.

The part that makes it an M IS THE ENGINE. M parts are scarce as are gasket sets for rebuild. Supply makes it expensive to rebuild. Search the web and you find that you can't do it cheap.

I did not say it's cheap , we just said that it's a normal engine and not dificult to open up and rebuild , but first you have to find out what wrong with it before you can hang a pricetag on the rebuild.
Also you can do an (expensive) total rebuild or just a simple "whats wrong with it and lets change these parts " rebuild , wich all have different pricetags on it.
An M engine is just that , an engine , from a technical point of view nothing special in the way it works.

Indeed, that is what DeWitt and I suggested, just fix what is wrong. At minimum, he will probably need:
1 piston at a slight overbore
piston rings
possible valve replacement
Rehone/slight overbore of one cylinder

All told, even with a new HG, that is probably about 1-2k.
Piston:600
HG:200
Valves:200
Labor for the rest.

I agree with what was said above about the cost, I think that if you are smart about it you can do it a lot more cheaply (and just as good as) the infamous $13k rebuild.

Having sold an M5 in the past, it was very annoying to listen to everyone who called about it pointing out the $12k rebuild. I'd tell them "then don't buy an M5".

Why not look into custom pistons? I'm sure you could get 6 nice, forged pistons for about $1k, that beats the hell out of $600 per piston.

The tough part is just giving the piston builder the right spec to build to.

It's at least worth looking into.

I know that if my M5 blows it's engine, I'm either going to rebuild the engine myself, or bastardize the car and put an LS1 in it.

Completely agree with the above.

Mahle has some sets for the 3.6 which are very fairly priced. I am thinking about some forged Eagle badboys for when the time comes. Carillo made some inexpensive rods. All we need is a head source....

If you know what you are doing, you can do a reasonably priced rebuild. I cant do any of the machining, but I have a local shop do it. They specialize in drag racing heads, so they can handle the job and they do it for a reasonable price. Its all about keeping away from those small independent BMW shops that know they can charge you out the ass for an S38 rebuild.

de Witt, do those companies still make those parts?

Does Scat make a stroker crank?

I would cross post this on www.m5board.com (http://www.m5board.com) to get opinions there...lots of e34 expertise on that board. Hope it's not too gut-wrenchingly expensive....yikes!

I would also be inclined to run this past the gurus on the yahoogroups E34 M5 message board.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bmwe34m5/

I just called Scat, they don't make them anymore.

Hmm too bad. They did a batch two years ago. I wonder what it would take for them to get another one going.

BMW has the Mahle piston in ETK , 252 euro's (315$) their asking for it , also someone mentioned vibration because of the difference in HP output of that piston : if you use one size bigger you are talking about a 0.05mm bigger piston , i realy don't see where the extra HP would come from.
You would have more vibration from the difference in weight of the pistons in an original engine than , in this situation , a difference of HP output could cause.
Also , if the wearing of the cilinder is nominal/minimal you don't have to go to a machineshop but you can hone it by hand , saves a lot of money , depents on how the cylinder is ( oval or not )wich you can measure.
You can do this all without taking the engine out , just pull the pan.
Don't make things more difficult than they are is my advice.

BMW has the Mahle piston in ETK , 252 euro's (315$) their asking for it , also someone mentioned vibration because of the difference in HP output of that piston : if you use one size bigger you are talking about a 0.05mm bigger piston , i realy don't see where the extra HP would come from.
You would have more vibration from the difference in weight of the pistons in an original engine than , in this situation , a difference of HP output could cause.
Also , if the wearing of the cilinder is nominal/minimal you don't have to go to a machineshop but you can hone it by hand , saves a lot of money , depents on how the cylinder is ( oval or not )wich you can measure.
You can do this all without taking the engine out , just pull the pan.
Don't make things more difficult than they are is my advice.

1. Increased compression due to a bigger piston.

2. Its not about whether the cylinder is oval or not, it is about whether the cylinder is pitted.

Well, I managed to tow the car from Knoxville to Louisville today. The round trip only took 12 hours. It's a good thing I have no job and I can devote a day to something like this. My father was nice enough to take the day off to drive because I am a little "off" from the pain pills I am taking for my wisdom teeth removal yesterday. Does life crap on anyone else's head all at once? I guess I am going through a "character building" time in my life.

All my tools are in Ft Wayne, so I won't be able to do much to the car unless I can borrow some tools from one of my buddies. I hope to at least stick a magnet down in the cyl tomorrow to see what I can pull out.

I talked to the service adviser at the dealer today. He said that the cylinder wall was badly damaged, but I don't really believe that he could see it. He told me he looked through the spark plug hole with a flashlight and saw the damage. Well, I did the same thing on the side of the road and I couldn't get a look at the wall. All I saw was the top of the piston, and that showed no signs of damage. I guess I will see.

I appreciate all the suggestions and input. Keep it coming. Unfortunately, I may not be able to tear it down right away, so try not to get frustrated with me.

Well, I managed to tow the car from Knoxville to Louisville today. The round trip only took 12 hours. It's a good thing I have no job and I can devote a day to something like this. My father was nice enough to take the day off to drive because I am a little "off" from the pain pills I am taking for my wisdom teeth removal yesterday. Does life crap on anyone else's head all at once? I guess I am going through a "character building" time in my life.

All my tools are in Ft Wayne, so I won't be able to do much to the car unless I can borrow some tools from one of my buddies. I hope to at least stick a magnet down in the cyl tomorrow to see what I can pull out.

I talked to the service adviser at the dealer today. He said that the cylinder wall was badly damaged, but I don't really believe that he could see it. He told me he looked through the spark plug hole with a flashlight and saw the damage. Well, I did the same thing on the side of the road and I couldn't get a look at the wall. All I saw was the top of the piston, and that showed no signs of damage. I guess I will see.

I appreciate all the suggestions and input. Keep it coming. Unfortunately, I may not be able to tear it down right away, so try not to get frustrated with me.

SA is lying. He cant see that shit by just sticking a flash light down in there. The spark plugs sit a good 6+" down into the engine...how the hell did he get light or an angle to see the walls of the cylinder? He had to have used a boroscope.

You're going to need to pull the head anyways, so I would just pull the head and make the diagnosis from there. Keep the updates coming.

I would find a shop with a photographic boroscope.
Hell, you can buy a good one now for 250 to 350

The only question you have to ask yourself is: Do I value keeping the car original, or am I willing to mod it? Keeping an engine with a scratched cylinder and messed up head original is gonna be expensive.

On the other hand, you can get an M30 of any mileage around here for $200 complete. Bolt a turbo to that and you've got the potential for a far more potent engine. Then just stick the M Power valve cover back on it. Tell everybody it's from a 1980s 745i.

The only question you have to ask yourself is: Do I value keeping the car original, or am I willing to mod it? Keeping an engine with a scratched cylinder and messed up head original is gonna be expensive.

On the other hand, you can get an M30 of any mileage around here for $200 complete. Bolt a turbo to that and you've got the potential for a far more potent engine. Then just stick the M Power valve cover back on it. Tell everybody it's from a 1980s 745i.

That is really not an option - its an M5. Pull the S38 and put in an M30? Forget it. Sell teh car if you are going to do that. If you want to mod it, it'd be a good time to turbo the S38 after you repair it, but don't pull it for an M30.

The only question you have to ask yourself is: Do I value keeping the car original, or am I willing to mod it? Keeping an engine with a scratched cylinder and messed up head original is gonna be expensive.

On the other hand, you can get an M30 of any mileage around here for $200 complete. Bolt a turbo to that and you've got the potential for a far more potent engine. Then just stick the M Power valve cover back on it. Tell everybody it's from a 1980s 745i.

Installing a M30 would probably be just as, if not more, expensive, as an engine swap is not trivial. Just because the engine is cheap, it doesn't mean the rest of the required parts are when added up.

Volkswagen 1.8T swap in your GT2 anyone?

NOBODY with HALF a brain is going to bastardize an M5 with an M30. That is a step in the opposite direction. M5s are expensive to maintain. We all knew that going in. I accepted that and prepared myself. I love the car so much. I think the S38 has got to be one of the most impressive motors ever built. (that isnt run on 90% computer software) If my car needs a rebuild tomorrow, so be it. I know its gonna hurt my bank account, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Granted its only got 70k miles, I am completely ready to do whatever is necessary. Thats just something you gotta accept with these cars. It is too bad that aftermarket quality parts arent as available these days.

Nick

Installing a M30 would probably be just as, if not more, expensive, as an engine swap is not trivial. Just because the engine is cheap, it doesn't mean the rest of the required parts are when added up.

Yeh, the better option for someone in such a position is to buy a $200 beater 1987 528e and save up for the rebuild. Parting is stupid unless you have to take it to a chop shop and get that frame and body buffed out.

1. Increased compression due to a bigger piston.

2. Its not about whether the cylinder is oval or not, it is about whether the cylinder is pitted.

1 There will not be a measurable higher compression if you change the piston diameter by 0.05mm , you need to do a lot more for compression to become a problem and than the added weight of the piston would surely become a problem.
An 0-piston is 93,355 mm and an 00-piston is 93,405 mm diameter so an 0-piston has 293,1347mm2 and an 00-piston has 293,2917mm2 , do the math.

2 ofcourse if it's pitted it needs to be bored/honed , but if it's oval , wich is normal for an engine with some miles on it , you can not just put in a new piston and hope it's allright , it probebly will use oil and have a loss of compression so you have to hone it , boring or much honing needs to be done by a machineshop but if it's not much you can do it yourself

Just because the engine is cheap, it doesn't mean the rest of the required parts are when added up.

Yes it does. I could get a driveshaft, tranny crossmember, set of engine mounts, computers, injectors and a few other ancilliary small parts from a junkyard around here for $200 total. Add that to the engine and it's still pretty cheap compared to the price of...oh say one S38 piston.

Having turbocharged four non-turbo vehicles from scratch parts I put together, I know that it can be done for less than $500 as well, or $1000 if you wanna go the expensive route with everything.

NOBODY with HALF a brain is going to bastardize an M5 with an M30. That is a step in the opposite direction. M5s are expensive to maintain. We all knew that going in. I accepted that and prepared myself. I love the car so much. I think the S38 has got to be one of the most impressive motors ever built. (that isnt run on 90% computer software) If my car needs a rebuild tomorrow, so be it. I know its gonna hurt my bank account, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Granted its only got 70k miles, I am completely ready to do whatever is necessary. Thats just something you gotta accept with these cars. It is too bad that aftermarket quality parts arent as available these days.

That is the right attitude. My "infamous" $13k rebuild was mostly labor so if you can do the assembly yourself or find someone to help you it could be WAY less (pay for machine work head rebuild and then assemble yourself). BTW, my BMW pistons were $1500/set at about a 15-20% discount. If you know exactly what parts to buy, you could like save even more than that through a discount supplier like BMA (like 30% plus off the entire order). Mine included new oil pump, all exhaust valves ($80/valve), valve springs, a few intake valves, etc. I did a lot of stuff "while I was there." So, yes it can be done cheaper but I wouldn't half ass it.

While I spent a lot of money, I have now enjoyed my car for another 4+ years and it is has been mechanically sound for that entire period. The guy did make one huge mistake but he paid for it and I had to deal with some oil leaks in the first year. If you find someone who is experienced in doing rebuilds, any kind of engine, that will really help. It is just an engine and the same techniques can be applied to it that are applied to a rebuild of an LS1. You just need a quality guy who takes his time.

1 There will not be a measurable higher compression if you change the piston diameter by 0.05mm , you need to do a lot more for compression to become a problem and than the added weight of the piston would surely become a problem.
An 0-piston is 93,355 mm and an 00-piston is 93,405 mm diameter so an 0-piston has 293,1347mm2 and an 00-piston has 293,2917mm2 , do the math.


"There isnt a measurable higher compression." Ok, whatever you say. Like you said do the math, and well, its measurable and its higher. Its also negligent to stick a different piston in the cylinder because of the vibrational problems and the definite effects it would have on harmonic resonance.

Well I think it's his car to do with what he pleases, whether it be paying for an overpriced, underperforming S38, or a turbo M30, or whatever.

I think it's really funny that people put a lot of stock in the fact that "it's an M5", but the fact of the matter is, they are a car that many people admire, and few want to own.

"There isnt a measurable higher compression." Ok, whatever you say. Like you said do the math, and well, its measurable and its higher. Its also negligent to stick a different piston in the cylinder because of the vibrational problems and the definite effects it would have on harmonic resonance.

You don't get higher compression from a larger piston, you get more displacement.

You get higher compression from domed pistons and smaller combustion chambers.

That is the right attitude. My "infamous" $13k rebuild was mostly labor so if you can do the assembly yourself or find someone to help you it could be WAY less (pay for machine work head rebuild and then assemble yourself).


Did you make a thread listing the breakdown of what cost how much? I'd be interested in seeing exactly what is "special" and what isn't with these motors. The internet rumor is that everything costs so much, but I would like to see exactly what they do cost.

You don't get higher compression from a larger piston, you get more displacement.

You get higher compression from domed pistons and smaller combustion chambers.

CR= ((pi b^2 s)/(4+ Vc))/(Vc)

where b= bore
s= stroke
Vc= volume of combustion chamber

I guess I dont see how it wouldnt increase CR. You increase the bore measurement, you increase the Vc, but also maintain stroke? Ive been doing mental gymnastics all morning and I probably should keep my mouth shut.

Yes it does. I could get a driveshaft, tranny crossmember, set of engine mounts, computers, injectors and a few other ancilliary small parts from a junkyard around here for $200 total. Add that to the engine and it's still pretty cheap compared to the price of...oh say one S38 piston.

Having turbocharged four non-turbo vehicles from scratch parts I put together, I know that it can be done for less than $500 as well, or $1000 if you wanna go the expensive route with everything.

You actually wouldn't need the driveshaft or trans x-member, as the S38 bolts up to M30 transmissions, and the reverse also works. You would need a new wiring harness, and potentially a new cluster, assuming you don't want warning lights and you want the cluster to actually work.

Did you make a thread listing the breakdown of what cost how much? I'd be interested in seeing exactly what is "special" and what isn't with these motors. The internet rumor is that everything costs so much, but I would like to see exactly what they do cost.

I can check but if I recall my reciepts didn't have much detail (about 60% parts/machine work vs. 40% labor). You could go to realoem.com and pull quite a few prices.

Todzilla:

"Overpriced and underperforming?" A 3800lb car running a 14 second quarter mile in 1990 is not even underperforming by today's standards and the engine still holds up to the latest offerings in 6 cylinder engines.

Wow, I guess every Suby with a modded turbo is a better car than an M5. I have experienced a full blown Supra Turbo and to be honest did not like the power delivery at all. I have also driven a Ruf Turbo 993 and while that was a bit better and less sudden, I still prefer the linear delivery of an na engine. In addition, I don't want to be continually futzing with fuel injectors, boost controllers and ecu tuning. Given the price of a 535i and the lower number of M5's out there, I would rather encourage a rebuild of the S38.

You increase the bore measurement, you increase the Vc,

No you don't. Combustion chamber is in the head, not the cylinder.

"Overpriced and underperforming?" A 3800lb car running a 14 second quarter mile in 1990 is not even underperforming by today's standards and the engine still holds up to the latest offerings in 6 cylinder engines.


A $13,000 315hp low-torque engine that weighs as much as an S38 is not impressive. ;)

The overall car, yeah, it's pretty cool but the engine itself is not really all that impressive, particularly on a cost per hp basis (anymore).

You don't get higher compression from a larger piston, you get more displacement.

You get higher compression from domed pistons and smaller combustion chambers.

As DeWitt said, if you increase the displacement volume, without increasing the clearance volume, the net effect is it will increase your CR.

CR=(Vd+Vc)/(Vc)

If Vd increases, and Vc is constant, it is easy to see that the CR will also increase. I remember a lot of the old hot rodders asking questions about why their bored motors were suddenly pinging after a bore job.

A $13,000 315hp low-torque engine that weighs as much as an S38 is not impressive. ;)

The overall car, yeah, it's pretty cool but the engine itself is not really all that impressive, particularly on a cost per hp basis (anymore).

315 HP 3.6l normaly aspirated able to do it for 100,000 miles is still impressive.

No you don't. Combustion chamber is in the head, not the cylinder.
Head chamber remains constant and swept volume increases = higher compression ratio.

A $13,000 315hp low-torque engine that weighs as much as an S38 is not impressive. ;)

The overall car, yeah, it's pretty cool but the engine itself is not really all that impressive, particularly on a cost per hp basis (anymore).

Exactly. It isn't all that impressive any more, as the "par for the course" sedan (eg, the G35) now has a 3.5L V6 wich has very similar peak performance characteristics. The main thing to remember is the age of the car and engine design. The base S38 was created more than 20 years ago. The last update to the S38 was more than 10 years ago. Just because it isn't on top now, that doesn't mean it wasn't ever such. Times change. I think the S38 is a good engine because of how it fared against its contemporaries, and its longevity in maintaining its superiority.

Did you make a thread listing the breakdown of what cost how much? I'd be interested in seeing exactly what is "special" and what isn't with these motors. The internet rumor is that everything costs so much, but I would like to see exactly what they do cost.

They started with a stock block and all internals are specific as are gaskets. Routine consumables like filters and belts are normal priced anything else is special order and costly there is no rumor about it. The cost to tool for a limited production item dictates the cost of the parts manufactured as they need to turn profit. If I make pistons for a potential of 6000 or 60000 the cost per piece will reflect that as the tooling cost will be relatively the same.

"There isnt a measurable higher compression." Ok, whatever you say. Like you said do the math, and well, its measurable and its higher. Its also negligent to stick a different piston in the cylinder because of the vibrational problems and the definite effects it would have on harmonic resonance.

I'm intrested in your measuring equipment , it's an increase of 0.00535% of piston surface , i realy don't know how you want to measure such an increase but maybe more important is the fact that we did this in about 50 or 60 engines over the past 30 years , also BMW , and never had a problem with it.
Some of these engines were tuned so if it would give problems than these engines would show them.

Head chamber remains constant and swept volume increases = higher compression ratio.

Hmm, I'll have to think about this.

Hmm, I'll have to think about this.

He is right about this , the whole point is not that it will not increase CR because it does but the point is to wat extend , will it cause vibrations or not , i say it does not.

He is right about this , the whole point is not that it will not increase CR because it does but the point is to wat extend , will it cause vibrations or not , i say it does not.

The degree of additional power output would be small, but the additional force can cause larger than expected (continual) forces on bearings farther down the crank, causing them to wear faster. Not much faster mind you, as the S38 will run even if it is down a cylinder, which causes very large imbalances, which would wear down the bearings far faster than the imbalance created by a cylinder making slightly more power. This is partially why a rebuild is suggested whenever there is a significant difference in compression between cylinders.

The degree of additional power output would be small, but the additional force can cause larger than expected (continual) forces on bearings farther down the crank, causing them to wear faster. Not much faster mind you, as the S38 will run even if it is down a cylinder, which causes very large imbalances, which would wear down the bearings far faster than the imbalance created by a cylinder making slightly more power. This is partially why a rebuild is suggested whenever there is a significant difference in compression between cylinders.

okay , if you look at it this way than would'nt the fact that all cilinders fire on different points of the rotation of the cranckshaft be a much greater force of imbalance and therefor this "extra " power or compression would be neglectable.
Also if you go at it the simple way and say that 1 cylinder puts out 50HP and the increase of piston surface is 0.005% than u can assume the maximum extra output from that cylinder will be 50HP + 0.25 HP (0.005%).
If i read on the board about turbo set-ups of 500 - 600HP on the original bearings then i would not make a big deal of it.

Ofcourse i agree with you that an engine should be as flat in output as possible , no sense to argue about that , but in Holland a friend of mine had a tuning company (not the plastic bits and pieces stuff , but engine tuning) and he was specialised in BMW , i worked there a lot for over 7 years , and when we tuned an engine the first thing we did was weighting the pistons and tierods and balancing the crankshaft wich included reboring the camshaftbearings in the block.( i do know how it should be done )
We often found weight differences of 5-6 grams in the pistons (lightest to heavyest - new out of the box ) and i'm sure this will give you resonance but by BMW standards exeptable for a standard engine.

My whole point in this discussion is that obviously "None For You "has a problem and does not own a bank and if you put all the + and - in a row than this ( replacing 1 piston ) is a very viable solution for his problem.
Would he have the cash than i would say: go for the whole package and build yourself an new engine

My whole point in this discusion is that obviously "None For You "has a problem and does not own a bank and if you put all the + and - in a row than this ( replacing 1 piston ) is a very viable solution for his problem.
Would he have the cash than i would say: go for the whole package and build yourself an new engine

That is what I, and to a certain degree DeWitt, are suggesting. A budget fix can be done just by replacing the damaged parts versus doing a full rebuild.

The differences would be negligable,however keep in mind that the original engine was balanced and blueprinted from the factory. Over time wear will cause the imbalances incurred to have the same effect on individual cylinder output. As far as the argument of crank positioning for each cylinder firing this is done in a straight six so as to have it balanced via firing order. This is why the 6 runs so smooth as compared to natural imbalances of a V6 which in larger displacements needs a seprate balance shaft.

Exactly. It isn't all that impressive any more, as the "par for the course" sedan (eg, the G35) now has a 3.5L V6 wich has very similar peak performance characteristics. The main thing to remember is the age of the car and engine design. The base S38 was created more than 20 years ago. The last update to the S38 was more than 10 years ago. Just because it isn't on top now, that doesn't mean it wasn't ever such. Times change. I think the S38 is a good engine because of how it fared against its contemporaries, and its longevity in maintaining its superiority.

275HP vs 315, 6200RPM vs 7200RPM is not similar and add the Variable Valve Timing makes for a more complicated engine. I will give you the weight savings and torque. This from what is essentially a 30 year old design. It is still in league with whatever is out there today.

It is still in league with whatever is out there today.

LS1 350hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS6 405hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS2 400hp, less weight and smaller than an S38

These are "ancient" pushrod motors too- more power, more torque, less weight and much cheaper parts. Plus they get significantly better gas mileage.

Please don't bust out the "hp/liter" argument

LS1 350hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS6 405hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS2 400hp, less weight and smaller than an S38

These are "ancient" pushrod motors too- more power, more torque, less weight and much cheaper parts. Plus they get significantly better gas mileage.

Please don't bust out the "hp/liter" argument

Ok. Craig. Were sorry, your M60 is a better motor. Everything you say is valid. Our S38s are outdated and slow. They dont rev high, and they dont make nearly adequate HP/Liter. Im sorry BMW ever was stupid enough to make the S38. Please resume your position as the supreme knower of all that is automotive related.

I wish id bought a 540i/6 instead of my slow S38.


BTW, the GM powerplants you mentioned above arent even close to being as smooth as a BMW inline double over head cam motors. (idle OR redline)

LS1 350hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS6 405hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS2 400hp, less weight and smaller than an S38

These are "ancient" pushrod motors too- more power, more torque, less weight and much cheaper parts. Plus they get significantly better gas mileage.

Please don't bust out the "hp/liter" argument

"More power, more torque, less weight"-You are comparing 2 completely different motors. Of course it will be better in almost every way, they are all nearly double the displacement. That is like bashing a lightweight fighter because he doesn't have the hitting power of a heavyweight. I don't think the S38 can realistically compete with double the displacement without some method of forced induction, as nobody can escape the physics, even if the engines are poorly engineered from the factory. I do think, however, that the S38 is king of the 6-es.

They have much cheaper parts because there are literally tens of thousands more LS1s than S38s. They only made ~20k S38s during the entire production run, over almost 20 years. Of course parts will be more expensive.

Gas mileage-when you get on a LS1, the gas needle takes a nosedive, just like any other car. The S38 kinda requires you to constantly do this, which is why the mileage is low.

It is too bad that aftermarket quality parts arent as available these days.
Nick

There aren't many quality aftermarket parts because they aren't really needed. But you can spend a lot of money tweaking a rebuild with very trick high performance parts should the need arise.:evil2

Ok. Craig. Were sorry, your M60 is a better motor. Everything you say is valid. Our S38s are outdated and slow. They dont rev high, and they dont make nearly adequate HP/Liter. Im sorry BMW ever was stupid enough to make the S38. Please resume your position as the supreme knower of all that is automotive related.

I wish id bought a 540i/6 instead of my slow S38.


BTW, the GM powerplants you mentioned above arent even close to being as smooth as a BMW inline double over head cam motors. (idle OR redline)

Glad to see you completely missed my point (particularly since I never mentioned my M60). Try going back and reading everything I said and then maybe you'll want to try again.

:rolleyes

LS1 350hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS6 405hp, less weight and smaller than an S38
LS2 400hp, less weight and smaller than an S38

These are "ancient" pushrod motors too- more power, more torque, less weight and much cheaper parts. Plus they get significantly better gas mileage.

Please don't bust out the "hp/liter" argument

They are not so ancient as you like to think all these engines were complete redesigns of the ancient V8 265 chevy basic block. They are Shorter in length due to the V confiuration however they are also wider. And as everybody knows there is no replacement for Displacement. By the way my M will whip an LS1 vette. Fuel mileage is directly related to gearing. The laws of chemistry dictate how much power is available from any given fuel.

If you produce more power you will burn more gas. To determine which will give better fuel economy you really need to look at the thermal effiecencies of the engine.

Oh and the HP per liter is valid as this will show just how well an engine can breath to burn that fuel also how well it is balanced will allow it to rev making up for displacement by increasing the number of combustion cycles in a given amount of time.

"More power, more torque, less weight"-You are comparing 2 completely different motors. Of course it will be better in almost every way, they are all nearly double the displacement. That is like bashing a lightweight fighter because he doesn't have the hitting power of a heavyweight. I don't think the S38 can realistically compete with double the displacement without some method of forced induction, as nobody can escape the physics, even if the engines are poorly engineered from the factory. I do think, however, that the S38 is king of the 6-es.



Yeah, I guess I was responding to the idea that there aren't modern engines making the same kind of power in a similar package. Chevy managed to do it with an engine that is lighter, smaller and yet (as you noted) has almost double the displacement. True it's not an I6, but it will pretty much fit anywhere the I6 will.

I would fully agree the S38 is a great I6 motor (though the S54 is probably the one I'd call the king of the I6s). I'd even say it's a great motor in general, and for it's time it was remarkable.

But trying to compare a 20 year old engine design to modern engines just doesn't make sense. Technology moves on and no matter how great something is, a newer/better/bigger/faster/whatever example will come along later.

That is all I am saying here.

By the way my M will whip an LS1 vette.

Corvette 3200 pounds, 350hp.
M5 3700 pounds, 315 hp.

Sure, that's reasonable.

Yeah, I guess I was responding to the idea that there aren't modern engines making the same kind of power in a similar package. Chevy managed to do it with an engine that is lighter, smaller and yet (as you noted) has almost double the displacement. True it's not an I6, but it will pretty much fit anywhere the I6 will.

The LS motors are lighter due to the meterials used. The S38, as I said before is a 20+ year old design which remained almost static during the entire run. Considering the costs of retooling, it isn't very suprising that the block stayed iron. Heck, I think BMW first did an alloy I-6 in the late 90s, not before. As to why they used iron for so long, I think it was for both cost and durability. The iron M52 (the 2.8L version) has been shown to handle 650+ hp on stock internals, which is a 300%+ increase over stock. Nobody has explored the alloy block's possibilities, but I'd venture that the iron block is a bit more strong. This is also a reason why there are 1000+hp S38's running around on the streets of Finland.

As was already stated, the LS motors are wider than the S38, but this advantage is mitigated somewhat by the intake manifold and the tilted orientation of the engine.


I would fully agree the S38 is a great I6 motor (though the S54 is probably the one I'd call the king of the I6s). I'd even say it's a great motor in general, and for it's time it was remarkable.

Personally, I'd take an S38B38 over an S54 just because there is less to go wrong. No VANOS, no super advanced DME. The S38 is less efficient, and it only has more torque because of the additional displacement, but it is simpler.


But trying to compare a 20 year old engine design to modern engines just doesn't make sense. Technology moves on and no matter how great something is, a newer/better/bigger/faster/whatever example will come along later.

That is all I am saying here.

Indeed, I stated that point earlier, myself. The S38 is great, but in this era of 300hp stock toyota corollas, the S38 can't deliver the goods like it used to. Of course, the fact that it has been so good for so long is, in and of itself, remarkable.

Go drive a well set up E34 M5. You might then understand where we are coming from.

BTW, I have read everything, it just comes that you are one of many who has never owned an S38, and knows far too much about them.

Go drive a well set up E34 M5. You might then understand where we are coming from.

BTW, I have read everything, it just comes that you are one of many who has never owned an S38, and knows far too much about them.

I have driven one extensively. It loved driving it, it was a fantastic car that I still love to this day. However, I was responding to (and agreeing with) what someone what has owned two S38s originally stated (Toddzilla).

But, why do I need to own one to know that on a power, cost, reliability and weight factor that the S38 is not competitive. I am not talking about the experience of driving the car, nor the performance numbers of the car. I'm talking about the engine- the original comment (as said by Todd) was that it was overpriced and under performing.

So I don't think you've read what I said at all.

Indeed, I stated that point earlier, myself. The S38 is great, but in this era of 300hp stock toyota corollas, the S38 can't deliver the goods like it used to. Of course, the fact that it has been so good for so long is, in and of itself, remarkable.

Yup, no argument here.

351 cleveland swap FTW!






seriously guys- c'mon. Arguing BMW vs Chevrolet isn't fixing the OP's M5.

Hey Craig. Sorry man, I got a bit excited. My emotion got a the best of me. You know how partial we all are to our cars.

Glad you like the M. I love mine. Im just a tad protective...haha

Nick

Hey Craig. Sorry man, I got a bit excited. My emotion got a the best of me. You know how partial we all are to our cars.

Glad you like the M. I love mine. Im just a tad protective...haha


It's cool, no problem.

overpriced or underperforming i dont think anyone is gonna be able to pull that engine away from their owners :D

whereas im sure more than a few g35s will be traded in next year.

Put a M60 in there and BAM!

///M540i

Not as fast, but just as rare.

The driving experience of a E34M5 S38 is kind of like having sex with a MILF.
Sure there are younger hotter chicks but MILF's sure know how to make a man feel good.:D

thats a good idea.. wouldn't you have to change a lot of other things as well though? Probably an m30 would be a better fit - m30 turbo?

My decision to spend $13k on my rebuild was easy. In 2002 what could I go out and buy for $13k that I would like as much as my M5? Answer: nothing.

It was about $$/hp or anything like that. I have a passion for the car and don't make decisions based on sheer economics. I would be driving something different if I did. I have driven a 6 speed G35, the second generation engine, and that thing was no S38. Yuck, buzzy at high rpm and the chassis was rubbish. Just my .02.

I still really have no desire to part with it. I might buy a third car for the street or track but I will just keep the M5. They just don't make many cars like that anymore. Sure, the new Camry might run a 14 second quarter as well but you wouldn't catch me dead in one.

I love the rumble and shake of my M5 and the fact it sets off car alarms with a stock exhaust. I was in a garage the other day and the attendant climed out of my car after retrieving it and said "Really cherry." Then I told him it had 255k miles on it and his jaw just dropped.

if u guys want to talk about s38 capabilities u have to turn back the clock

a bmw m1 with a m88 ( s38's grandpa ) 500hp NATURALLY ASPIRATED
turbocharged vsmotor's m5 s38 1033hp.... please
not to mention the crazy roar every time the needle is past 4500 rpm

s38 a true monster, among best engines ever designed, I rest my case

Hi None For You,
Still following your own thread?
Got some Q's and maybe some ideas for you.
Did you get your car home yet and did you find out what's in the engine , did you pull the head yet , give us some updates and info plzzz.

I talked to a friend of mine in Holland , he owns a engine and tranny rebuild shop , and i told him about your problem , he told me that a customer of him had a sort of same problem (broken valve) , the top of the piston was damaged in the center and the guy did'nt have the money for a full repair so the guy did the following , he took out the piston and went to an industrial welding company where they put some weldings on top of the piston , than he took the piston to my friends company where they machined the head of the piston to the original dimensions and weight , the same was done to the head so the only thing he bought new were the valves , since then he drove over 40K/km with it without trouble.
If the damage is not on the side of the piston it should be possible and ofcourse the cilinderwalls would have to be not too damaged.

So for an idea for you , i would pull the head wich you have to do anyway , make foto's of everything and post them on the board , if you are not allowed to post foto's/attachements maybe you can mail them to somebody on the board who can post them.
Than we all can have a look at it and give you further advice , there are many knowledgable people on the board who will gladly help you solve the problem.
So what are you going to do??

Displacement of the cylinder is a minimum gain. If you are that worried, CC the heads, which is time consuming but cheap. then increase the volume of the affected cylinder's combusiton chamber by whatever you need, .010 CC's or whatever, and be happy. Weight match the pistons with a good quality scale and a die grinder, and go about your life. Mission accomplished. Or you could just throw the slug in there, pretty mutch gaurantee whatever symptoms you notice once its running will be psycosematic (SP)?

If you are going to drop that much on a mere rebuild you may as well upgrade it while you are at it

Id pay money to see a 91 M5 smoke an LS1 vette. Not calling BS, Id love to see it. Since my chipped 3.46 LSD 535 keeps up with e34 M5's unitl about 3rd gear, I doubt it. Vettes leave me like Im tied to a post. But anything spossible

Every acount Ive read put the M1 at 288 HP


And all you guys are wrong.
THE E28 M5 IS JUST BADASS. FLAT THE F*** BAD. ITS QUICKER THAN ALL THE M5'S IVE BEEN IN.ITS EASIER TO MOD.


Sorry but that smy true feeling. Im sure the e34 M5 will pull the e28 over 120, but damn those e28's respond crazy to mods and just feel so carnal

I would pay to see your 535 keep up with a healthy e34 M5. I had a chipped 535 and even when I drove the pants off of it, it was still a car that took 7 seconds to get to sixty. AND I had a 3.64 lsd. It was NOTHING compared to my current M5.

Nick

Been in and driven several. They feel no different down low

Ok, so you keep up for the first 3500 rpm. Come on man, ive owned both. Chipped 535im and a chipped M5. I had them both for 4 days. Some friends and I ran them. The M5 was slaying the 535 by the end of first gear. Come on man... seriously.

All you bastards with the S38 should be legally obligated to turbocharge them and turn them into at least 500rwhp beasts to prove the superiority of the BMW I6 :D

Id pay money to see a 91 M5 smoke an LS1 vette. Not calling BS, Id love to see it. Since my chipped 3.46 LSD 535 keeps up with e34 M5's unitl about 3rd gear, I doubt it. Vettes leave me like Im tied to a post. But anything spossible

Every acount Ive read put the M1 at 288 HP


And all you guys are wrong.
THE E28 M5 IS JUST BADASS. FLAT THE F*** BAD. ITS QUICKER THAN ALL THE M5'S IVE BEEN IN.ITS EASIER TO MOD.




Sorry but that smy true feeling. Im sure the e34 M5 will pull the e28 over 120, but damn those e28's respond crazy to mods and just feel so carnal

M1 is 288Hp, yes.

The E28 M5 S38B35 does respond well to mods, but they have to be meaningful. Just a chip, meh, 10 hp. One of my E28 M5s has standalone DME, chip, cams, and etc. Stock it would not keep up with the E34 M5. The E34 M5 S38B36 has the venerable resonance flap, and that makes a huge difference. Now though, the modded E28 M5 will roast my chipped E34 M5. Its lighter and has about 300hp. It also has a better DME. And it gets better gas mileage.

E34 TOP SPEED FTW!!!!

170+mph (with the 3.73 rear diff)

stock m1 288hp
procar m1 500bhp thank u

e34 m5 vs e34 535...... m5 would smoke it in reverse, unless the guy in the m5 doesnt know how to drive.
its the same damn motor just: SOHC,less compression, less displacement vs DOHC higher compression, more displacement......

I am still following the thread... I just don't have access to a computer very often since I am sorta stuck out of town. Today is the first day I have had much of an opportunity to devote any time to this. I realized that I don't have any repair manuals for the car. What should I get? Are the CDs on ebay good?

Unfortunately, I probably won't get an opportunity to pull the head until next weekend. I am going to go pick up my tools this week in Fort Wayne and bring them to Louisville. By then, I should have whatever manual I ordered. At some point, I have to devote some time to my job search, too.

This will be my first time taking an engine apart. It has always been cheaper for me to put a used engine in a car, so I have never had a reason to take one apart. I am an engineer and a rather accomplished mechanic in every other respect, so I don't foresee a problem, but I want to make sure I take my time and do it right. I don't really want a trial and error situation with this engine.

As for the performance of the S38; I think there is little argument that it still smokes almost everything out there. The fact that the peak HP is delivered at 100 RPM below red line is key to this. When racing, a stock S38 is almost always producing over 300 HP whereas many other engines are revving too high to be in their peak HP range. This is just one item that makes it difficult to compare the peak HP of one engine to another.

Funny how I keep hearing about how the e34 M5 will destroy all, yet Ive never heard of this before :shifty:

Its just not that fast. Get over it guys. It doesnt produce the powerband that the s54 does, it doesnt produce the torque of the 4.4 or even 4.0. Im talking aggregate numbers here, not peak numbers . Im also not talking about someones built and moddedt to to the max S38. Im talking a plain jane M5 with a chip and maybe a muffler (which I love how some people call an "exhaust")


Its an insanely balanced, smooth, and overall I think, incredibly unique machine. BMW pulled off, somehow, putting a race motor in a 3500+ pound sedan and maintained all the sveltness of the people carrier and the feel of a race engine under your right foot. I dont think theyve done such a car since. The e28, which is my favorite, no doubt, is much more carnal and feels more racy, each one is a unique example.

the e34 m5 is strong, pulls very hard from a roll, and is a joy to drive. Ive seen two at Roswell and Lubbock tracks, pulling 15's and the best of a 14.3. My 535 pulled a 14.9. Yes, that admittedly, was the only 14 it ever pulled.

the 535m is a very torquey car, and feels just like if not torquier than the e34 m5. Around town, I cannot tell the difference

yes, the e34 M5 is faster, but not until you drive the everloving piss out of it.


Maybe Im just spoiled from having two big blocks in my garage. Maybe its the 99 then 00 WS6 cars Ive owned. Maybe its all the turbo vettes and mustangs and 11 second NA LSX cars running around. I just cant call a 14 second car fast.

Now comes the "BMW is not a drag racing machine argument" I wholeheartedly argree. Drag racing BMW's is like taking a princess to honky tonk bar. But once we get on the highway, I see the same thing. The S38 is still very competitive over 100, but its not standalone like it used to be. Any LSX vetter or camaro or TA is goign to outrun it, and a slew of rather ordinary cars, the e39 540M for example, are goign to hang with it.

I sincerely wish the e34 M5 was as fast as it is being painted to be here. But I remember too well why I chose my 535 over an M5, the difference was only a few thousand, around town and under 80, where i do most driving, the feeling is too similar. Not saying I wouldnt buy one, but it would be one of the grey market tourings running aorund, one live in my neighborhood. And its fast too. But please, please...the S38 is what it is. an at best 310 rwhp 3500 to 3700 pound car with 3.6 liters of displacement. it lacks the torque of V8's, or vanos, or any of those other torque enhancing attributes. Its tremendously fast for what it is, and especially the era it was borne into; it was devastating. but its 2006. not 1991

E28 M5 and E34 M5 are both very quick and fast cars in their time. Comparisons of both with 0-60 and 1/4 mile times aren't that meaningful to most M owners as they realize those are probably the weaker performance points on the cars. These cars aren't made for launches from a dig.

Both cars, once rolling at more that 30 to 40 mph and above 3k on the tach will still humble alot of faster cars with more hp.

Funny how I keep hearing about how the e34 M5 will destroy all, yet Ive never heard of this before :shifty:

Its just not that fast. Get over it guys. It doesnt produce the powerband that the s54 does, it doesnt produce the torque of the 4.4 or even 4.0. Im talking aggregate numbers here, not peak numbers . Im also not talking about someones built and moddedt to to the max S38. Im talking a plain jane M5 with a chip and maybe a muffler (which I love how some people call an "exhaust")

I have an actual Tri-Flow B&B cat-back system. Its not just a muffler. What kind of a person with an M5 would just put a muffler on it. Get real man. Only Mustang and Camaro owners do that kinda crap.:devillook

the e34 m5 is strong, pulls very hard from a roll, and is a joy to drive. Ive seen two at Roswell and Lubbock tracks, pulling 15's and the best of a 14.3. My 535 pulled a 14.9. Yes, that admittedly, was the only 14 it ever pulled.

Ok. 1990 C&D reports the stock M5. 0-60 in 5.6 and the quarter in 14.3. I ran my 535im with a HIGHER diff than yours 3.64lsd and I wasnt able to get better than a 15.6. I gave the car to a friend of mine who was at the track. (he is an ex-formula mazda driver and the same man who taught me to drive. we spent many weekends on the track together) He couldnt get anything better than 15.4.

I CALL BS on your 14.9.

the 535m is a very torquey car, and feels just like if not torquier than the e34 m5. Around town, I cannot tell the difference

yes, the e34 M5 is faster, but not until you drive the everloving piss out of it.

Ok, either the M you drove was running on 4 cylinders or you drove a 535 with an M badge on it.


Maybe Im just spoiled from having two big blocks in my garage.

Hardly...

Now comes the "BMW is not a drag racing machine argument" I wholeheartedly argree. Drag racing BMW's is like taking a princess to honky tonk bar. But once we get on the highway, I see the same thing. The S38 is still very competitive over 100, but its not standalone like it used to be. Any LSX vetter or camaro or TA is goign to outrun it, and a slew of rather ordinary cars, the e39 540M for example, are goign to hang with it.

Ok. Ive run E39 540i/6s from a dig, AND on the highway and I always walk away. It is much more difficult from a dig because of their masive torque. If I get a good launch and they get wheelspin its curtains for them. Highway pulls are easier for me.

I sincerely wish the e34 M5 was as fast as it is being painted to be here. But I remember too well why I chose my 535 over an M5, the difference was only a few thousand, around town and under 80, where i do most driving, the feeling is too similar. Not saying I wouldnt buy one, but it would be one of the grey market tourings running aorund, one live in my neighborhood. And its fast too. But please, please...the S38 is what it is. an at best 310 rwhp 3500 to 3700 pound car with 3.6 liters of displacement. it lacks the torque of V8's, or vanos, or any of those other torque enhancing attributes. Its tremendously fast for what it is, and especially the era it was borne into; it was devastating. but its 2006. not 1991

First of all, if BMW had wanted to make the M5 a torque monster, they would have put a V8 in it. Its built for highspeed touring. All things taken into consideration it has quite a bit of torque. 265lbft for a stock example is decent. A lightly modded example can push 280-300 lbft of torque. (that is more than a stock E46 M BTW) The E34 M makes up to 212lbft of torque at as little as 1200rpm. The 535 makes 225lbft at PEAK. GET REAL. Your seat of the pants performanace meter is way out of caliberation.

BTW there is no way your 535im would beat all those G35s you talk about. Ive held my silence long enough. Ive run them from a roll, from a dig and at 100+ mph rolls. As much as I hate to say it, the M30 has no chance against the G35.

Now the S38 on the other hand...I think you get my drift. :)

Nick

BTW- I lived in Albuquerque for 8 years. The elevation kills performance. My dads Ferraris there ran like they were down 50+ hp. I couldnt believe how fast they were when we got them to CA.

None of my M5s will keep up with this badboy, even if it is powered by a small block:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/6112/carbr8.jpg

However, it will get pummled by both the E28 M5s and the E34 M5 past 140mph :D and that is the whole point of the E28 and E34 M5s...who gives a rats ass about V8 torque (never ceases to amaze me how people like to rag on the M5s and bring up the venerable BMW V8s or other V8), give me the good stuff: high end HP!

S54 is a different animal. The S54 is an engine I have much toyed with the idea of popping into an E28 with a standalone DME. It simply doesnt have the sound or the beautiful sensation that the S38 gives, but it has nice HP, is more abundant and inexpensive, and also is arguably more reliable than the S38. The S38 is strictly for enthusiasts....much like a Ferrari owner who prefers his Columbo V12 over the rip roaring boxter V12 of the F512M (though the expense of both is not cheap nor are the engines abundant, the cost of a Columbo is quite higher).

I am still following the thread... I just don't have access to a computer very often since I am sorta stuck out of town. Today is the first day I have had much of an opportunity to devote any time to this. I realized that I don't have any repair manuals for the car. What should I get? Are the CDs on ebay good?

Unfortunately, I probably won't get an opportunity to pull the head until next weekend. I am going to go pick up my tools this week in Fort Wayne and bring them to Louisville. By then, I should have whatever manual I ordered. At some point, I have to devote some time to my job search, too.

This will be my first time taking an engine apart. It has always been cheaper for me to put a used engine in a car, so I have never had a reason to take one apart. I am an engineer and a rather accomplished mechanic in every other respect, so I don't foresee a problem, but I want to make sure I take my time and do it right. I don't really want a trial and error situation with this engine.

I don't know if the cd's from ebay are any good but i bought mine there and i'm very happy , i think you will too.
We will wait for the results of next weekend and i wish you luck with your job search,
If you are an engineer , well , that much better , still , we will be here for you , it will not be an trail and error situation ( we won't let you!) , just take your time.

]

I CALL BS on your 14.9.

Whatever, I bet I can dig up the slip. since when is a 14 anything to argue about anyway? :rolleyes:



Ok, either the M you drove was running on 4 cylinders or you drove a 535 with an M badge on it.

Drove several


Ok. Ive run E39 540i/6s from a dig, AND on the highway and I always walk away. It is much more difficult from a dig because of their masive torque. If I get a good launch and they get wheelspin its curtains for them. Highway pulls are easier for me.


Its funny to hear the e39 guys tell this same story :lol:


First of all, if BMW had wanted to make the M5 a torque monster, they would have put a V8 in it. Its built for highspeed touring. All things taken into consideration it has quite a bit of torque. 265lbft for a stock example is decent. A lightly modded example can push 280-300 lbft of torque. (that is more than a stock E46 M BTW) The E34 M makes up to 212lbft of torque at as little as 1200rpm. The 535 makes 225lbft at PEAK. GET REAL. Your seat of the pants performanace meter is way out of caliberation.

I live in a wodrl where my 435+ HP from a 468 on the ground is lightweight even unremarkable compared to what my freinds have. 300 lbs is great but isnt gonna win any races. Hell compared to these HP turbo mustangs and vettes, etc, it wont even get your groceries

BTW there is no way your 535im would beat all those G35s you talk about.
Refresh me on "all those"


Ive held my silence long enough. Ive run them from a roll, from a dig and at 100+ mph rolls. As much as I hate to say it, the M30 has no chance against the G35.
Now the S38 on the other hand...I think you get my drift. :)



Nick

BTW- I lived in Albuquerque for 8 years. The elevation kills performance. My dads Ferraris there ran like they were down 50+ hp. I couldnt believe how fast they were when we got them to CA.
Thats why I dont even bother to run in Albuquerque


Look, Im not knocking the M5. Its awesome, and I cant wait to add an e28 to my stable. However, I find the "ultimate force in the universe" a bit rediculous, if not plain absurd.

As far as the "over 140 mph guy, :rofl: get real. For those of us who have truly been over 140, you realize just how incredibly much horsepower it takes to push each additional ten mph. Ownign a car simply because of how it performas over 140 mph and then calling it king of the street is a bit absurd


just stop the hate , and the hyperbole

and by the way, even other M owners have commented on how similar the 535 feels to the m5 down low....I just fail to see the issue here. :dunno:

Look, Im not knocking the M5. Its awesome, and I cant wait to add an e28 to my stable. However, I find the "ultimate force in the universe" a bit rediculous, if not plain absurd.

As far as the "over 140 mph guy, :rofl: get real. For those of us who have truly been over 140, you realize just how incredibly much horsepower it takes to push each additional ten mph. Ownign a car simply because of how it performas over 140 mph and then calling it king of the street is a bit absurd


just stop the hate , and the hyperbole

and by the way, even other M owners have commented on how similar the 535 feels to the m5 down low....I just fail to see the issue here. :dunno:


Probably me. There is no sense in denying the purpose of the car. It would be stupid not to. Of course, you can be dumb, I wont stop it. The E34 M5 shines from 80mph+ and will tear any stock E34 a new one past that speed. A stock E28 M5 will blow a stock E34 540 on similar grounds past 100mph. My heavily modded E28 M5 would blow both out of the water past 70mph, but it is not stock. Some of us have had the chance to wring out both the E28 M5 and the E34 M5. Others have not. Plus there is a learning curve. If you know how to wring out the E34 M5 then you can rip the 535i a new one. You are what many of the Yahoo E34 M5ers would call a clown. You came into this thread late, talking a lot, supposedly with a lot of time behind the wheel of both the E34 and E28 M5. I dont know many NM M5ers, and thats with over 16 years of being in the community. Just stop the bullshit. You keep talking alot about an E28 M5, but I never see one in your hands.

Plus I dont think I called it the king of the street...my FFR would defintely rip the hell and drink the blood out of any car on the streets. You cant mess with 2100lbs and 450hp @ 6400rpm and a 0-60 of 3.5 seconds.

Excellently put. ^

Nick

BTW here is one of your extreme 535 rampages:


After ownign the 535, dont ;et anyone fool you, it is a great motor and liek someone else said, no replacement for displacement. Its much faster there is ahuge torque difference. THe thing is , the 525 is quite peppy too. Especially in a 5 speed

The M50 is smoother, revier, more sophisticated. It is not prone to the coolant issues of the 535, nor the gauranteed pretty much head gasket at 160-180K. It has COP technology, better injectors, and is a smoother motor and sounds great with exhaust. It is turbochargable as well and superchargable. I think average output is around 300-350 whp just like the 535.

the 535 is carnal., loud, obnoxious. It has week headgaskets from the factory I guess, coolant issues, and old injectors. It has 12 miles of coolant hoses and likes cold morngins about as much as an arthritic old man. It has a definiete "old tone" under exhaust while not being bad doesnt sound a thing like the m50. It idles like crap and redlines like its coming apart. It responds well to mods but hits a barrier at aorund 260 to 280 flywheel HP.

That beign said, with nothing but a chip, the 535 is amazingly quick and fast. Freeway pulls with many other cars including 4.6 powered stangs and other bimmers like a 330 yield amazing results. The 535 can dip down into the 14's quickly NA, and under forced induction produces much more torque.

I smell a LOT of POT.

Nick

I've only driven one E34 535 5 spd.
My early build E34M5 with the 3.91 seems faster (granted its a bit modified).:embarrasm

Excellently put. ^

Nick

BTW here is one of your extreme 535 rampages:



I smell a LOT of POT.

Nick

and, whats so unreal and "extreme rampage" about that? And what about the G35?
You strike me as someone very much in love with your car, lacking objectivity. Saying I dont understand the operating constraints of the e34 M5 simply because I dont own one is absurd. Using that logic, any one on here can claim their car can do anything and call BS simply because others have not personally operated their car. Oh wait, they can, its the Internet.:D

NikosX here is attempting the mudslinging campaign of defending his side. Now hes inferring that I smoke pot :biglaughb: Now he quotes things that dont even back his claim. Lets see...I called the 535Loud carnal and obnoxious. A notoriusly bad idle, noisy valvetrain, , poor emissions..need I go on? I love the m30, own two. A reason they discontinued that engine exists though

Now what else did you put in red? It respnds well to mods but hits a barrier around 260 to 280 flywheel And whats so wrong with that statement? Thats pretty much common knowledge. And the reason Im going FI

and now...That beign said, with nothing but a chip, the 535 is amazingly quick and fast. Freeway pulls with many other cars including 4.6 powered stangs and other bimmers like a 330 yield amazing results. The 535 can dip down into the 14's quickly NA, and under forced induction produces much more torque. Once again, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Probably me. There is no sense in denying the purpose of the car. It would be stupid not to. Of course, you can be dumb, I wont stop it.
Let the record state its you defensive guys doing the name calling. Is that all you have to go on?
The E34 M5 shines from 80mph+ and will tear any stock E34 a new one past that speed.
Well, duh! :nuts . But how come BMW bumped European displacement to 3.8 liters when the 540 became popular? Why would they touch anything so unbeleivably overwhelmingly diabolical?


A stock E28 M5 will blow a stock E34 540 on similar grounds past 100mph. My heavily modded E28 M5 would blow both out of the water past 70mph, but it is not stock.
Hey man, you're preaching to the choir hear. I dont know why you want to argue. Hell, Im very jealous of your two e28's, being able to own two and mod one is very, very cool. I almost bought mannies car at Southwest Collision , but the interior wasnt quite up to snuff. I keep finding a trade off, rust, or suncracked interior. I love those cars, badly. Trying to make room for one, as we speak, today (taking bids on a shop) I think the e28 is a stupendous example of badass. Although once again I wont argue the aerodynamic issues, etc. It goes 150 stock. That says something, right?

Some of us have had the chance to wring out both the E28 M5 and the E34 M5. Others have not. Plus there is a learning curve. If you know how to wring out the E34 M5 then you can rip the 535i a new one.
Of course you can. I never said the 535 was truly faster, I said mine has hung with some for quite some distance. Then its like being tied to a post, but you're out of "grudge match" territory. That all being said, theres a guy here in the CCA with a 535, lots of mods, more than I currently have. His car is very quick. No its not an M5, but its funny because both of our cars give 540 autos fits.
You are what many of the Yahoo E34 M5ers would call a clown.
Nice way to call names via proxy server. Dont drag yourself down into a Kills or FI forum reputation.
You came into this thread late, talking a lot,
Your damn straight. If you remember, it was to give advice to some poor kid in a bind. Ive rebuilt an engine or two in my life :shifty:
supposedly with a lot of time behind the wheel of both the E34 and E28 M5.
Dont put words in my mouth, I said enough to love one and "meh" the other.

I dont know many NM M5ers, and thats with over 16 years of being in the community.
So?
Just stop the bullshit. You keep talking alot about an E28 M5, but I never see one in your hands.
Refer to previous statement at beginning of this.


Plus I dont think I called it the king of the street...
That was me. I referred to the attitude as "king of the street". I didnt intend to give the impression of quoting, sorry.
my FFR would defintely rip the hell and drink the blood out of any car on the streets. You cant mess with 2100lbs and 450hp @ 6400rpm and a 0-60 of 3.5 seconds.
Well that is a quick car. And it comes down to HP/Weight. Which is an e34 issue I have. What do you mean by FFR?




Once again, I dont get the hate, or hyperbole

and, whats so unreal and "extreme rampage" about that? And what about the G35? You strike me as someone very much in love with your car, lacking objectivity. Saying I dont understand the operating constraints of the e34 M5 simply because I dont own one is absurd. Using that logic, any one on here can claim their car can do anything and call BS simply because others have not personally operated their car. Oh wait, they can, its the Internet.:D

Yes, I do love my car. Clearly you love yours as well. Actully its not absurd to claim that you dont understand FULLY the operating constraints of the M because you don't own one. There is no way that you could fully understand the car from a few encounters. You have stated that you have driven a couple. Driving one for a short while, and driving one daily are two GREATLY different things. And yes, I would understand the car better than you, and I would understand and be able to compare the 535im and the M5 more accurately than you. I drove both, day in and day out. Back to back. There is no replacement for experience in a situation like this. Its very simple, a few joy-rides arent going to give you an authority over what the E34 M5 is. Ive spent countless hours in both.

NikosX here is attempting the mudslinging campaign of defending his side. Now hes inferring that I smoke pot :biglaughb: Now he quotes things that dont even back his claim. Lets see...I called the 535Loud carnal and obnoxious. A notoriusly bad idle, noisy valvetrain, , poor emissions..need I go on? I love the m30, own two. A reason they discontinued that engine exists though

The 535 is not loud, unless you have open headers. You might, I dont know that for sure. Not much carnal about a two valve engine with such a low compression ratio. They dont idle that terribly unless you neglect valve adjustments. You talk of the car as though its a 60's muscle car. And I'm glad you own two. Im very proud of you.

Now what else did you put in red? It respnds well to mods but hits a barrier around 260 to 280 flywheel And whats so wrong with that statement? Thats pretty much common knowledge. And the reason Im going FI

The only mod other than a lightened flywheel that the car responds to is a chip. If you really believe that a chip yields 43hp like it says on the website, then you deserve yourself. There really arent any other HP gaining techniques. Often, exhaust systems on these cars hurt performance slightly. A differential upgrade will improve acceleration but hurt your top end, and in reality, it doesnt give you any more hp or torque. What modds did you have planned to get the M30 up to 280 flywheel hp?

and now...That beign said, with nothing but a chip, the 535 is amazingly quick and fast. Freeway pulls with many other cars including 4.6 powered stangs and other bimmers like a 330 yield amazing results. The 535 can dip down into the 14's quickly NA, and under forced induction produces much more torque. Once again, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Amazingly fast? Didnt you just finish bragging about your big blocks? If everything you say about your big blocks is true, wouln't all your talk about how slow the E34 M is mean that your 535i is a dog? And no, they arent AMAZINGLY fast by any stretch of the immagination. Its not likely that you will hang with a 4.6 Mustang either. Go take a video. I still call BS on the 535 in the 14's. It MIGHT and I stress MIGHT be possible with slicks, cams, headers, chip and exhaust or if you had a Metric Mechanic rally motor in there.

I hope to meet you on the street one day and get scorched by your M30.:D

Nick

BTW- The stuff about the G35 is in the Archives it was posted in early 2006. There is no way to use search to look through the archives. I wont be spending a day doing that. You can if youd like. Anybody else is welcome to.

I'm tempted to call BS on the 14.9. Show me a slip and i'll shut right up though. I feel it's possible, but unlikely. Slicks with full N/A mods with a very good driver but thats about it.

And about the 280 N/A. I highly doubt thats possible, unless you want to measure the engine life in minutes/hours.

And about the 280 N/A. I highly doubt thats possible, unless you want to measure the engine life in minutes/hours.

I dont know much about the M30, but I dont doubt that it could handle 280hp without much trouble. It is a beefy big block I6. MM has been making HiPo M30s for years, but those are not stock, so there is a difference.

I have seen a 280hp M30. It involves:
3.9L displacement bump
11:1 CR
P&P
cams
headers
lightweight flywheel
Motronic 1.3
3-angle job
Alpina valves

:eatpop:

:argue
:flamethro :rocketwho
:deadhorse:

M30s have motronic 1.3 by default :help

M30 @ 3.9L is not an M30. That's a huge difference, and you know what? A S38 with cams and software will make way more than a 3.9L M30

M30s have motronic 1.3 by default :help
Not always. The early M30s used carbs, then L-Jet, then K-Jet, then Motronic 1.0, and lastly Motronic 1.3. Heck, the S38B38 used Motronic 1.2.


M30 @ 3.9L is not an M30. That's a huge difference, and you know what? A S38 with cams and software will make way more than a 3.9L M30
What, a 6L M70 isn't a M70? It is just a stroker crank and a bore. Still the same motor. A S38 will always make more with similar mods. That point is undeniable. I never said that, I merely said a 280 M30 is possible, just not adviseable given the work required compared to the gains.

Not always. The early M30s used carbs, then L-Jet, then K-Jet, then Motronic 1.0, and lastly Motronic 1.3. Heck, the S38B38 used Motronic 1.2.


What, a 6L M70 isn't a M70? It is just a stroker crank and a bore. Still the same motor. A S38 will always make more with similar mods. That point is undeniable. I never said that, I merely said a 280 M30 is possible, just not adviseable given the work required compared to the gains.

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing - obviously he's not going to install a K-jet or previous M30.

The original question posed was does he install an M30 into an M5 for ease/price or does he try to rebuild his S38. A 3.9L M30 is moot, why do you even bring it up? If he could afford to build a 3.9L M30 he could afford to build a stroked S38... but that's neither here nor there. I would NEVER invest the money required to make a high CR, high revving, 3.9L forged M30... why? Because quite honestly it's a dinosaur 12v.

If he had that kind of money laying around I'd rather see him take a M50 non vanos, bore and stroke to 2.9L, do cams and retainers, 13.4:1 CR and have an 8500rpm 280 - 315hp NA monster. But then again, he doesn't have that kind of money.

Theres people here taking themselves way to seriously.

Ill try and explain once more:
When I said loud and carnal, I meant just that. The engine is physically loud and operates ..primitively.

As far as HP, there are those out there claiming to push 280, I put that number down when I made the statement just so people wouldnt rush in and say , "but.....". Notice I started the comment with 260. And yes, thats pushing it too. You have to know , the "old" standard for NA engines twelve alve was 1hp/CI. The m30 b35 is roughly around 220 cubic inches. when factory horsepower is 208 and chips put it in the range of 221 to 229, thats pretty darn good. Through a muffler, a cat, and full a resonator..a factory airbox and an archaic vane airflow meter. The new rule of thumb is 100 HP/Liter. At that standard, the m30 sucks and the S38 shines. I beleive it can come very close to or slightly exceed that, can it not? Horsepower is a function of mass air flow. If you know, for instance, that the NA power cpacity of your displacement is roughly 350, and you are at, say 235 with a chip and exhaust, insulated intake , and this and that, it is not unreasonable to expect another twenty five horsepower with headwork and some headers, exhaust. Its all airflow

Now, if I said the car is amazingly fast, that doesnt mean Im comparing it to Smokes. That means exactly what I said. Its amazingly fast for what it is. Whats so weird about that? Amazing is a relative term. I raced an automatic 2005 v6 mustang with the L7 and wlaked it on I25 heading south towards Bernalillo. It won, and won well. That was amazing, but the L7 is by no means fast. Its the Antifast.

SNB95 4.6 mustangs have nothing on my 535. Sorry. The newer ones fair better, but I owned one of those too, a sonic blue 2003 5 speed. It had not much on my 535. If anything, top speed was worse. Midrange acceleration was better. Aerodynamics own that car. I hope the new Mustang is better.

Now, about the 14.9. I have no problem providing you with a video and timeslip this spring, but I may come up with the timelsip sooner. Remember, this is at a Roswell track where I hvae logged probably thousands of passes in many,many different cars. Its home turf, low altitude relatively, and I have the homefield advantage. I was never able to row the 2003 mustang past a 15.3 here, but pulled a 14.8 and change in roswell.

Now, if I said the car is amazingly fast, that doesnt mean Im comparing it to Smokes.

WTF is Smokes? Are we supposed to know that?

WTF is Smokes? Are we supposed to know that?

WTF is a FFR? Smokes is my 468 BB car. It used to be in my sig

going back to the original argument...does an S38 stand a chance agains an LS1 vette?

I dont know why you think I want to fight. I just..the comments in this thread blew my mind. The M5 in 1993 held the same status it does today. (The new m5)

But does it really rank THAT well next to modern cars with the same relative power? Can it really take on vettes and F bodies and the like? I have very hard time believing that.

Yes it does if you run it where it was meant to be run.

Run it against anything with comparable power from 0-100 or from 30-130.

You know where my bet lies.

I smoke M5s now both of you stfu :) <3

I know you do smarty. haha But, pedigree is pedigree. Beautiful car bro.

I think I found the car M5 that 323i Junkie drove to get his view on the E34 M.

Look closely. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-535i-with-the-M5-LOOK-Black-Leather-Sunroof_W0QQitemZ220046219899QQihZ012QQcategoryZ60 08QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Nick

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing - obviously he's not going to install a K-jet or previous M30.

Who is arguing? I merely said it was possbile, just not adviseable.


The original question posed was does he install an M30 into an M5 for ease/price or does he try to rebuild his S38. A 3.9L M30 is moot, why do you even bring it up? If he could afford to build a 3.9L M30 he could afford to build a stroked S38... but that's neither here nor there. I would NEVER invest the money required to make a high CR, high revving, 3.9L forged M30... why? Because quite honestly it's a dinosaur 12v.

Once again, I didn't suggest that he do that, I simply said it could, and has been done.

:lol:

No it was a real M5, al of them.

Heres my question to you? How do you feel about the e34 M5 versus the e39 M5? Because Ive raced several of them, (against LS1 cars) and the results were mixed. They are damn fast.

:lol:

No it was a real M5, al of them.

Heres my question to you? How do you feel about the e34 M5 versus the e39 M5? Because Ive raced several of them, (against LS1 cars) and the results were mixed. They are damn fast.

E39 M5 = four door corvette

Lacks the passion and soul that the E28 and E34 M5 have. Ive driven the E39 extensively, as my father owns one and drops his off at my place when he travels out of Denver Intl Airport. Its fast, its luxurious, but its a four door corvette. Its not in the bloodline of the E28 and E34.

BTW, FFR is short for Factory Five Racing. The blue car posted is my FFR 427SC Cobra with a 347 small block ford pushing 430 or so HP.

Oh...of course. Ive always wante to build one, maybe when the M70 is done..Ive fancied for years the m70 Ultima in my video library

but I was asking about speed. Is it comparable or slightly faster? Or a lot faster. I thought it was like being in a 540 tied to a bullet train. So smooth...

and BTW, Im not a fan of any m car with cylinders that dont divide evenly into or equal 12. I think the new V8 M3 is a huge sellout. A Mercedes gag

how the fuck did this go from a question about "what can I do to possibly fix my s38" to a comparison between e28/e34 m5 to LS1 cars? I mean seriously.

Such is the nature of the Forums
We're killing time until he pulls it apart

Oh...of course. Ive always wante to build one, maybe when the M70 is done..Ive fancied for years the m70 Ultima in my video library

but I was asking about speed. Is it comparable or slightly faster? Or a lot faster. I thought it was like being in a 540 tied to a bullet train. So smooth...

and BTW, Im not a fan of any m car with cylinders that dont divide evenly into or equal 12. I think the new V8 M3 is a huge sellout.