I truly believe that within the next few years we will see the demise of the sick shift, manual transmission. Anyone else find this tragic? If for no other reason than to have a stick shift M3, I've decided to keep my M. Does anyone else find it tragic that with the new era of 7 speed and 8 speed tranny's that there will no longer be any stick shifts going around in high end performance cars?

I mean, if the new M3 is truly a V8 with 7 speeds, my son (when I have one) will never know the joy of TRULY driving a beast like the M3 in it's best form...in a stick shift. My nephew who is learning to drive in about a year isn't even considering to learn stick because his father's MB doesn't have stick. What a tragedy.

You need a new nephew.

Traditional manuals have been slowly phased out over the past 10 years, whether its Porsche,Ferrari or even BMW, the F1,SMG, or Tiptronic its faster and more consistant than a traditional manual. The only thing holding them back is that they usually weigh a lot more and are years more complex than a manual.

Oh well...

SMG FTW

It is amazing how few of my friends know how to drive a manual transmission. Several months ago, we went out to the bars with two cars, one of which was my manual, and two DDs. Neither of the DDs knew how to drive a manual, which caused some headaches getting my car home (I was in no condition to drive). Funny, because when I learned to drive, my dad forced me to learn on a manual.

Traditional manuals have been slowly phased out over the past 10 years, whether its Porsche,Ferrari or even BMW, the F1,SMG, or Tiptronic its faster and more consistant than a traditional manual. The only thing holding them back is that they usually weigh a lot more and are years more complex than a manual.

Last I checked, all of the car companies mentioned above make manuals' standard, and F1 style/auto an expensive option. There will always be a demand for a 'stick shift' among enthusiasts.

Last I checked, all of the car companies mentioned above make manuals' standard, and F1 style/auto an expensive option. There will always be a demand for a 'stick shift' among enthusiasts.
But the margin has gone from 10% SMG/whatever and 90% Manual sales to ~75% SMG and 25% manual, its only a matter of time before the margin of manual sales is under 10% and then the factories will stop producing them because of manufacturing costs.

Thats not that tragic. First of all, if your nephew wants a Mercedes, he doesn't need a manual. If he actually cares about learning about cars and driving, he can buy or be bought something that isn't a brand new m3 or mercedes to drive around for a little while. Might be hard to imagine, and maybe the kid will not want to have to deal with some crappy old BMW like a manual e36 M or the like..

Second of all, I doubt the end of the stick is here yet. The 8 speed lexus or whatever is stupid IMO, whatever the have it in doesn't need 8 speeds.
I know what you mean though, it is a little sad to see it on the horizon. I just don't think I see it for mainstream cars now. But thats just me, and I'm in a different market, SMG equipped cars wont be in my market for a few more years...

You need a new nephew.

+eleventybillion

I guess I am the only person looking forward to the end of the stick shift. I consider messing with the clutch pedal a nusiance. I have had an SMG car since 2002 and love it. Its a much better track and street gearbox than the normal manual.

I keep all the control of the manual (to do good, usefull things, not say overrev the engine or miss a shift) while being able to focus more on driving and not on shifting.

I really wish the lotus had a smg option, I would have gotten it.

I agree here with engima, stick is great and everything, and it should be the way that drivers learn to drive. As it helps multitasking while driving.

But there is no need for stick manuals, all that it can offered is the "feel" of overall control, (jumping the revs, launching, etc..etc..) which SMG's and such will be able to get 99% as close to, in upcoming years. If people just like the shifting feel with the hands on the shifter, then you obviously must not have been to any driving events, as you would notice that its far easier and more comfortable to drive with paddles or the stick, with out the using of the clutch!

PS. This is coming from a stick DD.

To me,
The 'speed' and 'precision' of the shifts doesnt mean anything. The kid on christmas day smile I get from shifting around a nice couple of bends makes it all worthwhile to me...

still will also exist for cheap cars

its cheap to make a manual transmission compared to an auto

people looking for the economy car, and spend the least amount of money possible always buy manual cars, they even get better fuel efficiency if driven right, so i think it will around to stay for a couple more years for sure

at least until i am buying cars for my kids i hope...

i dont really care. face it; stick is a bitch to drive in traffic just like how SMGs are jerky and slow in traffic.

For me, the sole reason to drive a stick is to enjoy it when i'm opening the thorottle and SMG-type transmissions are fabulous on tracks, too.

I don't think anyone, honestly in their heart, enjoys clutching. except very very very few occasions.

I don't think the stick is going anywhere any time soon. Just because less than 10% of people in the US even know how to drive stick doesn't mean its like that everywhere else. Here people have more money and paying and extra 2k for an auto or an SMG is no big deal, but in many other places people get whatever they can get, and there is a much larger number of manual transmission cars out on the road.

To me,
The kid on christmas day smile I get from shifting around a nice couple of bends makes it all worthwhile to me...
Yes.

SMG isn't bad though. I want it someday. :)

I don't see it happening in 10 years. The E60 M5 was supposed to only have the 7 speed SMG box but demand from the US market of all places convinced BMW to begin offering a true manual option. In addition SMG won't ever be in the same performance league in the US as a real stick because BMW neuters the launch control (Ferrari does as well on their F1 boxes in the US). The future isn't automated conventional manual gearboxes anyways, it's in systems like DSG dual-clutch boxes which are superior in basically every way.

CVT is the way of the future, but not in the performance field yet.

CVT is the way of the future, but not in the performance field yet.

True, but they're starting to put dual-clutch boxes into small/cheap cars because they're less expensive than CVTs (albeit less effecient) but superior to normal manuals. I think this bodes well for the future of the design if it's spanning the market from econoboxes to hot hatches to future use on the 997 Turbo and on to the Veryon. Aside from a one-off Murano that had 350hp the most powerful motor a CVT can handle is in the 270-280hp range.

Brian W, you are exactly correct. In the US, there will always be a manual transmission available. BMW knows that they need to offer manual in the new M3 as well as SMG because of demands. I hear people all the time yell at me for having an E90 in auto. It is my daily driver, but I definately plan to get a Z4 coupe in manual as a weekend car.

I just don't honestly see how it's even possible to add a 7th gear in the box logically. It just doesn't make sense. The way it's mapped out now makes sense and allows for fast driving. As far left as possible and up and down for 1 and 2. Left nuetral and up and down for 3 and 4. All the way to the right and up and down for 5 and 6. How do you add a 7? Make people push all the way to the right...the push again to the right? Just like how they do reverse? Impossible to do that fast and efectively when driving fast...such as in a quarter mile. I don't see it happening with 7 and 8 gear tranny's coming out...I could be wrong though.

True enthusiasists will always be using the stick.

all of the current 7 speeds, are autos or paddle shift, and I suppose with the planetary layout of the autos you could add another ring and try and make the other ring smaller but damn the transmission case would be massive.

i dont really care. face it; stick is a bitch to drive in traffic just like how SMGs are jerky and slow in traffic.

For me, the sole reason to drive a stick is to enjoy it when i'm opening the thorottle and SMG-type transmissions are fabulous on tracks, too.

I don't think anyone, honestly in their heart, enjoys clutching. except very very very few occasions.
ienjoy my clutch every time i touch it

ienjoy my clutch every time i touch it

Because you live in TX. all you have there is empty land. try driving it thru 405 or 10 or LA during rush hour.

335i comes in stick.

Traditional manuals have been slowly phased out over the past 10 years, whether its Porsche,Ferrari or even BMW, the F1,SMG, or Tiptronic its faster and more consistant than a traditional manual. The only thing holding them back is that they usually weigh a lot more and are years more complex than a manual.

not sure how you shift, but i haven't seen how any of the smg's can shift faster then what i do, at least not enough to make a difference. And i can guarentee you that no "tiptronic" can shift faster then me.

i dont really care. face it; stick is a bitch to drive in traffic just like how SMGs are jerky and slow in traffic.

For me, the sole reason to drive a stick is to enjoy it when i'm opening the thorottle and SMG-type transmissions are fabulous on tracks, too.

I don't think anyone, honestly in their heart, enjoys clutching. except very very very few occasions.

with all due respect sir, you don't deserve to drive a stick ;) . great car by the way. i used to have 95 325is and it was an outstanding car.

not sure how you shift, but i haven't seen how any of the smg's can shift faster then what i do, at least not enough to make a difference. And i can guarentee you that no "tiptronic" can shift faster then me.

Way to be arrogant, the tiptronics and smgs have shift times that are in the milliseconds and sorry I you cant even push your clutch to the floor in a millisecond. Even in an all out drag race you will see me lift off the throttle, I dont have money coming out of eyeballs, I dont feel like putting a new trans in it every weekend and a new clutch. Its a BMW, what'd you gain by not lifting and slamming the gears as hard as could to try and squeze every last drop of performance out of your car a .05 of a second? thats a lot to be braggin about in a 13 second car.
Now in my drag car, its built to take it and the I converted the automatic to a manual valve body for use with a rachet shifter.

A 911 Turbo equipped with the optional 5-speed Tiptronic S automatic transmission requires only 3.4 seconds to sprint from 0 to 60 mph. Equipped with the standard six-speed manual transmission, the new 911 Turbo reaches the same 60 mph mark in 3.7 seconds

I just don't honestly see how it's even possible to add a 7th gear in the box logically. It just doesn't make sense. The way it's mapped out now makes sense and allows for fast driving. As far left as possible and up and down for 1 and 2. Left nuetral and up and down for 3 and 4. All the way to the right and up and down for 5 and 6. How do you add a 7? Make people push all the way to the right...the push again to the right? Just like how they do reverse? Impossible to do that fast and efectively when driving fast...such as in a quarter mile. I don't see it happening with 7 and 8 gear tranny's coming out...I could be wrong though.

I'm sorry man, but I have to correct you....... but i see what you are saying. There is no such thing as a 7 speed/8 speed manual out for BMW and I think there would be no point in offering it. All the 7 speed trannies out right now are smg's, therefore not worrying about the extra gear. I do agree with you about having 7-8 gears in a manual gear box, i think it would be pointless also.

Way to be arrogant, the tiptronics and smgs have shift times that are in the milliseconds and sorry I you cant even push your clutch to the floor in a millisecond. Even in an all out drag race you will see me lift off the throttle, I dont have money coming out of eyeballs, I dont feel like putting a new trans in it every weekend and a new clutch. Its a BMW, what'd you gain by not lifting and slamming the gears as hard as could to try and squeze every last drop of performance out of your car a .05 of a second? thats a lot to be braggin about in a 13 second car.
Now in my drag car, its built to take it and the I converted the automatic to a manual valve body for use with a rachet shifter.

A 911 Turbo equipped with the optional 5-speed Tiptronic S automatic transmission requires only 3.4 seconds to sprint from 0 to 60 mph. Equipped with the standard six-speed manual transmission, the new 911 Turbo reaches the same 60 mph mark in 3.7 seconds

oh i wasn't trying to be arrogant at all. I am sorry if i came across that way. Actually when i powershift it doesn't hurt anything at all. I have had my car for a year and it has been on the stock clutch since i bought it and the tranny is just fine. Perhaps i am mistaken i guess, but everytime my i hear an SMG shift i am impressed but it's not what i would consider the quickest shift possible.

Now i would think that my 1/4 mile is not too bad considering my car was a mid to low 14 in the 1/4 when it was stock and NEW. My M3 now has almost 107k on it and i hit a 13.6 with it. Now that same day i had a run where i missed 4th and still hit a 13.71. I am willing to bet that my car is capable of a 13.5 or even a 13.4 and no i don't think that is stretching the imagination.

Again, I didn't mean to come across arrogant and i am sorry if i did. I am not negating the fact that the SMG is a quick shifting tranny, but i do think i can shift right with it or perhaps quicker when i am shifting my quickest. It is just my opinion and doesn't make it fact.

Jon

I'm sorry man, but I have to correct you....... but i see what you are saying. There is no such thing as a 7 speed/8 speed manual out for BMW and I think there would be no point in offering it. All the 7 speed trannies out right now are smg's, therefore not worrying about the extra gear. I do agree with you about having 7-8 gears in a manual gear box, i think it would be pointless also.

Mercedes Benz has a seven speed auto and has had it for quite some time. If I'm not mistaken Lexus is rolling out an eight speed model soon. While the SMG box in the M5/6 is specifically designed for that application, it is still an automated conventional manual box. The shift pattern would be very different from a regular manual however if they just threw a linkage and lever on it owning to not only the extra gear, but how they put first and second into the strongest part of the case, etc...


Again, I didn't mean to come across arrogant and i am sorry if i did. I am not negating the fact that the SMG is a quick shifting tranny, but i do think i can shift right with it or perhaps quicker when i am shifting my quickest. It is just my opinion and doesn't make it fact.


You can't shift right with it or more quickly no matter how good you are. Ignoring the speed at which the system can handle the clutch, the shifting alone can be done faster then you could possibly move your hand from any gear to any other gear. The advantage you have is in the launch, where SMG in the US is dumbed down from the European version

Funny, because when I learned to drive, my dad forced me to learn on a manual.

i aksed my parents that learn manual. my mom though it would be dangerous, and ive talked to firneds of mine taht thought the same aswell, manual is dangerous....

i dont like to say so, but, what the fuck!

also, something odd, only two of my firends cant drive stick....everyone else can.

its sad that stick is being phased out...

The fact that so many people are debating this topic shows strength in the fact that SMG, Semi-Auto, DSG :D , F1, etc., has made an impact on the driving community.

Question is, 10 or 15 years down the road, will BMW, Audi, Porsche still offer a stick model for every car?

Personally, I believe it to be only a matter of time before stick becomes a word of the past.

I can't wait for the next M3 in SMG....

Because you live in TX. all you have there is empty land. try driving it thru 405 or 10 or LA during rush hour.

Sports cars weren't for rush hour on the 405. When I buy a Civic commuter, I'll get an auto. But every sports car I ever own will be a manual.

Actually when i powershift it doesn't hurt anything at all. I have had my car for a year and it has been on the stock clutch since i bought it and the tranny is just fine.

:rofl :lol3 :lol

Are you serious? You think powershifting doesn't hurt anything? Jesus Christ, learn about the mechanical workings of your car!

"Nothing has totally exploded yet" is NOT the way you assess whether or not you are doing damage. You are reducing your transmission's life considerably by doing that.

And while you may shift SMOOTHER than an SMG, there is no way you shift faster. I too think the reduction in shift time is meaningless, I in no way claim to shift faster and neither should you.

To car enthusiasts:
How much skill is required to downshift quickly into a turn with an SMG?
How much skill is required to heel-toe quickly into a turn with a manual gearbox?


[/end thread]

To car enthusiasts:
How much skill is required to downshift quickly into a turn with an SMG?
How much skill is required to heel-toe quickly into a turn with a manual gearbox?


[/end thread]

:rolleyes
How much time have you spent at an actual race track? There is more to driving than shifting. Driving a stick shift just shows you are stuck in the past at this point. i.e. A grumpy old man

:rolleyes
How much time have you spent at an actual race track? There is more to driving than shifting. Driving a stick shift just shows you are stuck in the past at this point. i.e. A grumpy old man

You sir, make a good point.


You also have a couple of very nice cars.

:rolleyes
How much time have you spent at an actual race track? There is more to driving than shifting. Driving a stick shift just shows you are stuck in the past at this point. i.e. A grumpy old man

I will be honest, I have not been on a racetrack in a car, I am 21 years old, however, I have raced karts for about 8 years. I will say there is much more to driving than shifting as a kart will show anyone. I am also an obsessive fan of Formula One, which I see to be the epitome of motorsport, and I don't see any manual transmissions there, so why would I be a grumpy old man?

I will be honest, I have not been on a racetrack in a car, I am 21 years old, however, I have raced karts for about 8 years. I will say there is much more to driving than shifting as a kart will show anyone. I am also an obsessive fan of Formula One, which I see to be the epitome of motorsport, and I don't see any manual transmissions there, so why would I be a grumpy old man?

Your origional post came off as yet another argument saying that "It takes more skill to drive a stick, so therefore its a test being a real car enthusiast."

If that was not the intent then I appogize.

Your origional post came off as yet another argument saying that "It takes more skill to drive a stick, so therefore its a test being a real car enthusiast."

If that was not the intent then I appogize.

Don't worry about it, I am not that old fashioned! Here check this out for your Elise (since I love those cars): http://www.sector111.com/handler.cfm?cat_id=20219&cat_id=20446&prod_id=1420&function=product

Well, fortunately they're bringing the stick m6 and m5s next year I think :)

If I ever got a porsche 911 turbo..I would go for the tiptronic, though :x

I just don't honestly see how it's even possible to add a 7th gear in the box logically. It just doesn't make sense. The way it's mapped out now makes sense and allows for fast driving. As far left as possible and up and down for 1 and 2. Left nuetral and up and down for 3 and 4. All the way to the right and up and down for 5 and 6. How do you add a 7? Make people push all the way to the right...the push again to the right? Just like how they do reverse? Impossible to do that fast and efectively when driving fast...such as in a quarter mile. I don't see it happening with 7 and 8 gear tranny's coming out...I could be wrong though.

Dogleg 7 speed. Way too much shifting though. Too much margin for money shifting unless it was gated too.

perhaps driving stick is just more fun? granted driving DGS(audi speak) or smg might be fun, there is just something cool about the three pedals.
kinda funny, my boss joked about my car, after i signed a document about my increase(a whole 2%!!), she was like, thanks for signing over the bmw...i said, can you drivke stick? she was like, ohh...damn(no)

while many individuals still drive stick today, some are moving to the F1 styled boxes.

sure, the cars are fast, its german, and what not. but there is still something fun about driving stick...
its gonna be really sad if the next m3 is not offered in manual at launch.

True BMW owners/drivers/enthusiasts will always prefer a stick over any computer controlled shifting system. That is what makes a BMW a BMW. The joy and childish smile you get hitting a corner double the speed it’s rated at and downshifting… then when you come out slamming it and being at 4-5000 RPMs. You may be able to do that in some other shifting platforms but none will be as fun without a stick. Only true BMW fans will be heartbroken to see the death of the stick shift... I know I will.

real sequential manual FTW (not bmw "I'm connected to a lawyer box and have no clutch" SMG)

True BMW owners/drivers/enthusiasts will always prefer a stick over any computer controlled shifting system. That is what makes a BMW a BMW. The joy and childish smile you get hitting a corner double the speed it’s rated at and downshifting… then when you come out slamming it and being at 4-5000 RPMs. You may be able to do that in some other shifting platforms but none will be as fun without a stick. Only true BMW fans will be heartbroken to see the death of the stick shift... I know I will.


Enthusiasts want to go fast. Smoothness will make a driver faster on track. At school we ran an e85 m roadster with a six speed against an e46 M vert with SMG. Same engine and the roadster is nearly 1000lbs lighter. The e46 put a solid half a car length on it from a stop. That's only going to be increased in a track situation.

I agree here with engima, stick is great and everything, and it should be the way that drivers learn to drive. As it helps multitasking while driving.

But there is no need for stick manuals, all that it can offered is the "feel" of overall control, (jumping the revs, launching, etc..etc..) which SMG's and such will be able to get 99% as close to, in upcoming years. If people just like the shifting feel with the hands on the shifter, then you obviously must not have been to any driving events, as you would notice that its far easier and more comfortable to drive with paddles or the stick, with out the using of the clutch!

PS. This is coming from a stick DD.

I have been to alot of driving events and I prefer manual. DD or Track car.

:)

I love my manual E36 M3 which was called "crappy old car" previously in the thread ;)

I will be honest, I have not been on a racetrack in a car, I am 21 years old, however, I have raced karts for about 8 years. I will say there is much more to driving than shifting as a kart will show anyone. I am also an obsessive fan of Formula One, which I see to be the epitome of motorsport, and I don't see any manual transmissions there, so why would I be a grumpy old man?

How big of a F1 fan are you? All the cars have real sequential manual transmissions (unlike bmw smg). Did you think they were using automatics if you didn't see any manual transmissions? F1 drivers do the standing start with a hand clutch and they shift with their paddles or buttons that energize a solenoid to shift a sequential manual transmission (a system much like a motorcycle). SMG is not a real sequential manual and currently exists more for people who want to play race car driver but can't use a clutch.

How big of a F1 fan are you? All the cars have real sequential manual transmissions (unlike bmw smg). Did you think they were using automatics if you didn't see any manual transmissions? F1 drivers do the standing start with a hand clutch and they shift with their paddles or buttons that energize a solenoid to shift a sequential manual transmission (a system much like a motorcycle). SMG is not a real sequential manual and currently exists more for people who want to play race car driver but can't use a clutch.
I already knew that F1 cars are semi auto gearboxes since they are still a manual transmission and that the SMG is not a real sequential gearbox, but the SMG is still a better alternative than a full-on auto for a street car.

i may be new here, however, it might be good for some of us, me included, it would be good for us if we has a definition of a sequential transmission.
it seems to me, that any sequential tranny that has no troque converters is sequential enough...

as for stick being a daily driver or track, its all fine, untill you have knee problems....which i hope i have a few more years, at least untill im out of college...

i may be new here, however, it might be good for some of us, me included, it would be good for us if we has a definition of a sequential transmission.
it seems to me, that any sequential tranny that has no troque converters is sequential enough...

as for stick being a daily driver or track, its all fine, untill you have knee problems....which i hope i have a few more years, at least untill im out of college...

What college are you at in SD?

howstuffworks.com is your friend.

I'm not an expert on SMG's but from reading around here, the 6speed manual and SMG II models use the same transmission only one is controlled by computers/hydralics. The 6speed manual transmission is an H pattern transmission so it sounds like the SMG just does the rowing and the clutching for you. "Real" sequential manuals have a different gear layout and a ratcheting device only allowing you to move up and down one gear at a time. It is mechanically impossible to skip gears like one can with an H pattern tranny. Very fast shifts and no computer to rely on. Computers can be added to do extra things like rev match and what not though. I guess that the bmw SMG is technically sequential to the user but not really sequential mechanically. Everyone on here seems to love the SMG boxes. A lot of reviews I see in magazines don't speak well of it though even on the new M5. Opinion I guess, as are my own thoughts. If you have it, of course you're going to like it.

JOEY

never driven an automatic in my life lol

^^^^Thats hard to believe but you arent really missing much.

:rofl :lol3 :lol

Are you serious? You think powershifting doesn't hurt anything? Jesus Christ, learn about the mechanical workings of your car!

"Nothing has totally exploded yet" is NOT the way you assess whether or not you are doing damage. You are reducing your transmission's life considerably by doing that.

And while you may shift SMOOTHER than an SMG, there is no way you shift faster. I too think the reduction in shift time is meaningless, I in no way claim to shift faster and neither should you.

hmmm, well i have had 4 bimmers and have driven them all the same for the most part. i don't dog them by any means, but when i am racing someone i powershift and never have i ever had an issue with a transmission or clutch.

look for a thread in the next week or so in the E36 M3 forum. i will post a vid up of me shifting. Perhaps i have not heard an smg shifting at it's quickest and that is why i think i can shift as quick as it.

why can't i shift as fast or faster then an SMG? I gotta be watching the wrong vids of smg's.

anyone got any vids of an smg shifting?

They still offer stick in the new M3 and M5...

I apologize for my late reply, but I've been away. Anyway,
asnpcwiz, I agree with you. Driving a manual tranny may not be the latest high-tech way of driving, but it's the purest integration of man and machine. Yes, it sounds cliche. I drive a humble `02 E46 (325i), and the feeling of pushing the engine to the redline, hearing that sweet German engine scream, and punching the clutch is a beautiful feeling. You truly feel "one" with the car, and since BMW is (and I stress the word "IS") the "Ultimate Driving Machine", I feel that there is no better way of experiencing a BMW. But, that's my prejudice opinion.
Yes, driving along the 405 (which I have done) during rush hour, an automatic is preferable. Howeve, in that situation, you can't truly enjoy the BMW experience anyway.

I will admit that the SMG can shift faster and downshift better than I can, but I still prefer to shift myself. God gave me a left leg for a reason:buttrock and it's not for the brake:D .

I have been reading the posts, and there has been talk of damaging occurring by shifting fast and power shifting. I assume that synchro wear is directly related to how fast you move the shift lever (assuming you are not power shifting), thus giving the transmission internals less time to match speed and placing more stress on the synchros. Can anyone confirm this? If so, is there more stress placed on SMG synchros when compared to a 5 or 6spd because the computer is shifting very fast?

I was taught that you don't want to slam the shift lever into the next gear, but feel the resistance, pause briefly while keeping some pressure, and smoothly engage the next gear, placing less strain on the synchros. Any comments?

Going back a bit in the thread i think that CVT is going to phase out extremely quickly. They wanted to put it into fords, and built a 5 billion plant just to make them, but scrapped everything because of some issues that weren't resolved at that time. The only company that uses cvt is nissan as far as i know, and dct is way better (especially since i work for the company that makes it). And yes in every magazine that has new cars will show that the new semi-auto's will do faster 1/4 times. The first car i think that had this was the 04 R32 V-dub with a 13.7 1/4 for manual and 13.5 for dct.

for those who don't know dct is dual-clutch technology. if you don't know then check howstuffworks.com and get used to it cause autos are gone and dct's are the way of the future. Eventually i'm predicting that manual will become more expensive as more and more of the market uses semi-autos.

ienjoy my clutch every time i touch it

me too and I live in NYC. It's second nature for an good stick shift driver to manipulate the clutch even in traffic.

I just don't honestly see how it's even possible to add a 7th gear in the box logically. It just doesn't make sense. The way it's mapped out now makes sense and allows for fast driving. As far left as possible and up and down for 1 and 2. Left nuetral and up and down for 3 and 4. All the way to the right and up and down for 5 and 6. How do you add a 7? Make people push all the way to the right...the push again to the right? Just like how they do reverse? Impossible to do that fast and efectively when driving fast...such as in a quarter mile. I don't see it happening with 7 and 8 gear tranny's coming out...I could be wrong though.

Why would you be using 7th gear in a quarter mile run???????

Actually nearly half of the auto makers have a cvt available in one of their cars. If they would stop being greedy and just make better belts for them so they would last longer instead of trying to figure out how to make money off of service charges auto trannys would be a thing of the past.

Yeah I really am not satisfied how BMW has gotten on this new idea of making all their cars really powerful (but the also really heavy). And now they keep pushing this SMG stuff on us... I really like my e36 M3 and even though a 6 speed and more power would be nice, at least the fundementals are there...

And now they keep pushing this SMG stuff on us...

Its not "pushing on us" when the majority of your customers want it. Its called good buisiness.

stick shift ftw...

no love for the stick??? smg is basically doing the work for you when 'racing'... HOW IS THAT FUN?? wheres the challenge of late breaking and rev matching the right gear just as you hit the apex and want to accelerate full throttle out with out a hint of deceleration or oversteer from kicking the rear loose... that is f*ing racing i don't care what f1 does, they drive rocketships that hit 18000rpms so the need for computer controlled gearboxes is more of a necessity... NOT GT inspired Road Racing.

no love for the stick??? smg is basically doing the work for you when 'racing'... HOW IS THAT FUN?? wheres the challenge of late breaking and rev matching the right gear just as you hit the apex and want to accelerate full throttle out with out a hint of deceleration or oversteer from kicking the rear loose... that is f*ing racing i don't care what f1 does, they drive rocketships that hit 18000rpms so the need for computer controlled gearboxes is more of a necessity... NOT GT inspired Road Racing.

Quick question. How many times have you driven in a race enviroment? Most of the people I know prefer SMG because it allows them to focuse on driving the car and winning rather than shifting.

10 or so track days in various bmw's, and 1 season of scca in a 72 datsun 1200 gt5

i think you are just biased because you have SMG... probaly a markdown from your dealer when you got your m3... SMG is for the 50+ crowd who can appreciate the novelty it has... not as a race option. When you are racing you are focused, you know your car in and out, driving a clutch is not a task as much as it second nature. Go to any scca event and ask someone about switching to SMG because they can't focus on the 'hardships' of using a clutch. Good god man. How much experience do you have?

Quick question. How many times have you driven in a race enviroment? Most of the people I know prefer SMG because it allows them to focuse on driving the car and winning rather than shifting.

Honestly, i see a lot of people saying that they rather focus on driving than shifting. The truth is, if you NEED to focus on shifting, then you NEED/DESERVE an automatic. Shifting should come naturally, hearing the engine with the 'third ear' and knowing when to shift without thinking of it, weather is just driving around the block at 20mph or racing someone from one stop light to the next one. My opinion...

Oh ..and one more thing just to stay on topic. No one should forget that the rest of the world is still driving stick.

10 or so track days in various bmw's, and 1 season of scca in a 72 datsun 1200 gt5

i think you are just biased because you have SMG... probaly a markdown from your dealer when you got your m3... SMG is for the 50+ crowd who can appreciate the novelty it has... not as a race option. When you are racing you are focused, you know your car in and out, driving a clutch is not a task as much as it second nature. Go to any scca event and ask someone about switching to SMG because they can't focus on the 'hardships' of using a clutch. Good god man. How much experience do you have?

More than you, try the search feature here and on elisetalk.

I understand why the manual owning dinasours are upset. They see the marked moving to a product that isn't what they want and being in the minority they worry that it will fade away like carburators did.

I swear that my track car car has exactly the wrong gears for laguna seca. About 3 times a lap I het the rev limiter 100ft before the brakes zone. If I shift I generally lose a tiny bit of speed out of the next turn because its a distraction that takes away from getting the turn right. If I don't the freaking two stage limiter makes the car coast down a few mph before I hit the brakes.

When I drove the M3 there this isn't an issue. You focus on driving and just shift when you want. I picked the M3 up in Jan 02. I bought SMG because its what I wanted, not because I got some discount.

I am just real sick of the attitude that I get from some of the "I hate all things new" crowd. Someone that buys an SMG car is no less a car person than someone with a manual. Heck, you could argue they are more pragmatic, just choosing the best tool for the job at hand.

Honestly, i see a lot of people saying that they rather focus on driving than shifting. The truth is, if you NEED to focus on shifting, then you NEED/DESERVE an automatic. Shifting should come naturally, hearing the engine with the 'third ear' and knowing when to shift without thinking of it, weather is just driving around the block at 20mph or racing someone from one stop light to the next one. My opinion...

Any how much track experience do you have?

^ a few good years in my country's national rally championship. Does that count ? Does that matter ? It's about how good of a driver a person is and how he feels his car.

^ a few good years in my country's national rally championship. Does that count ? Does that matter ? It's about how good of a driver a person is and how he feels his car.

Its also about what the driver WANTS to do. Personally I don't like shifting. Being able to do something and wanting to do something are not the same thing.

I have nothing agains people wanting a stick. I am just tired of the "If you don't want to shift, you deserve an auto" crap.

Well, take it easy, i didn't say anything to offend you...and if i did, my apologies. My comment was about the fact that some people have to focus on shifting...which is absurd. It's like "Sorry, i'd be a better driver if it wasn't for this manual gearbox, i just can't focus well on driving because of it". Haven't said anything about someone's preference.

once again, having the wrong gears at the end of a straight is well albeit shitty but like you said gear diffs would certainly fix that problem... of course the average track roadie dosn't have those resources. Now herein lies a problem, the car is doing something for you that enthusiasts have been doing for years, they would find different lines in order to work with what they had, a part of the challenge. Watch any road racing all the classes depending on what suits their car best take different lines in order to maximize what they are running even though there is a standard line for most courses. I do not have an attitude towards it but in my opinion it waters down the true road racing experience.

I didn't master heel-toeing just to have a computer away take the satisfaction of doing it perfectly into a high speed turn.

Also, for those who think manual is a bitch in bumper-to-bumper traffic: Learn from the rockcrawlers- Let it crawl in first......

Anyone who doesn't like driving a stick in bumper to bumper can buy an auto, simple as that. The day manuals stop being made for performance cars is the day driving becomes dead to me, lol. I can't stand automatics, there's no fun in them (unless they have enough horsepower to make stomping on the gas pedal entertaing, for a few seconds) there is just much more fun to be had in a manual car and IMO you can have plenty of fun driving a stick at posted speed limits while an automatic only becomes entertaining when you're going in a straight line very fast. I say this from personal experience, while neither of my cars are performance machines in any regard, I own a 1991 MB 300E and a 1996 BMW 318is, the 300E can be fun if you're going a speed an then you mash the gas pedal and it downshifts and takes off (yeah it's real slow but the fact that the engine has over 200,000 miles on it and it sounds like its tearing itself to pieces makes it a bit more entertaining) but that is what got me into trouble with Johnny Law, in fact I haven't even driven the 300E since the day I got my first ticket because I know if I get in that car, I will get bored and being less than responsible will drive it way too fast.

My BMW on the other hand is a blast to drive due to its manual tranny and brilliant chasis/suspension setup, and as I said, you can have plenty of fun within the limits of the law driving it.

That's just my opinion and you're entitled to your own, but that is how I feel. Also, note I said "performance cars" meaning cars you drive to have fun and go fast, I'd take an automatic in a luxury car any day, there's a reason most Benzes are autos while nearly all BMWs can be had with a manual, they are targeted at two very distinct and different audiences.

I truly believe that within the next few years we will see the demise of the sick shift, manual transmission. Anyone else find this tragic? If for no other reason than to have a stick shift M3, I've decided to keep my M. Does anyone else find it tragic that with the new era of 7 speed and 8 speed tranny's that there will no longer be any stick shifts going around in high end performance cars?

I mean, if the new M3 is truly a V8 with 7 speeds, my son (when I have one) will never know the joy of TRULY driving a beast like the M3 in it's best form...in a stick shift. My nephew who is learning to drive in about a year isn't even considering to learn stick because his father's MB doesn't have stick. What a tragedy.

If you want to go faster you need an AUTO. The auto shifts faster than any human can. We americans just feel the need to shift. Myself I prefer the manual tranny but for tur spped the auto wins. that is why F1 cars are autos!!

If you want to go faster you need an AUTO. The auto shifts faster than any human can. We americans just feel the need to shift. Myself I prefer the manual tranny but for tur spped the auto wins. that is why F1 cars are autos!!

SMG is not an auto. :rolleyes

The driver retains all the control of the manual with an improved interface to the system. Padles replacing a pedal and a lever. Less driver distraction and extranious messing with control. It frees up the left foot for the brakes.

If you want to go faster you need an AUTO. The auto shifts faster than any human can. We americans just feel the need to shift. Myself I prefer the manual tranny but for tur spped the auto wins. that is why F1 cars are autos!!

-(minus) 1
Regular automatic cars are slower than manual cars. And don't forget, F1 cars have different transmission than regular cars. Way more different, it's not even a comparison. And oh, one more thing, when you said 'we americans feel the need to shift'...that just made me smile.

Some of you guys are stuck in the past, you like manuals because that's what you have. And just because the rest of the world is driving manuals what does that mean? It means that they need to catch up! When I went to Mexico it seemed like 90% of cars were manuals, but they were all little pos's.

i dont think it will be that soon because the new m5's didn't initially offer a stick shift and now they're gonna have a manual.

i dont think it will be that soon because the new m5's didn't initially offer a stick shift and now they're gonna have a manual.
I dont know if you have read the article about the manual in the new M5 or not I think it was in the newest Car and Driver. But its almost a full second slower in the 1/4 mile and a half second 0-60 than the SMG. The reason C&D gave was that the transmission was made for the E39 M5 and simply adapted to fit the V10.

it would be sad, but I don't see it happening..

I personally prefer the stick...

Driving is fun with a stick. That's the 1 thing I look for when I get in my car. I never lQQk at the speedometer, because the engine dictates to me when its time 4 "ME" 2 change the gear...

Driving a stick for me is fun. I want 2 drive my car. Driving my cars (which have all been stick) means car & driver become one. Other than the steering wheel and the pedals there is no other contact made to the car(thru me) other than the stick. The stick is a direct connection of the car. Thru the steering and the pedals, they all work in symetry. Now I know some will say that can be said for a SMG. Well unless there's a change in the technologies of the way ROADS r built for technology. Getting more advances to make vehicles faster is problematic. Why? we all seam 2 run out of road, before we can enjoy the speed of the car on the road. Not for nothing, but if my car has the capability to do 204+ MPH I want that car 2 friggin get to @ least 150mph MOST of the time(hahaha):buttrock .

There's no place other than Germany u can drive w/o a speed limit(few other countries as well), but my point is if u have a legal speed limit of 56-65-75 U can't always go that fast might as well have fun doing WHATEVER the speed u doing. U don't need another technological advancement friggin up my run to a traffic jam:mad . Give me my stick. Let me have my fun.

Technologies should increase the safety, in my opinion, of the drivability of a car - now with that being said. I feel "safer" in my stick-shift car over any mechanical addition to my driving experience. If ever I've gotten into trouble driving my car its of course driver error. Mechanically enhanced traction control, speed sensitive steering, speed & distance controlled cruise control, parking distance control, backup cameras, semi/auto smg, shoot cars driving themselves even the headlights turn now, etc all seams 2 distract drivers(giving drivers MORE stuff 2 do IN the car). People felt they need these things to drive better or enhance their personal life not their driving experience...The car manufacturer designed the new cars to make people feel better about their cars & less smart @bout the drivability of the car...Technology improves our lives, but in my eyes it makes it less fun.

Look @ it like this: If every1 that drove a car 100mph never got into accidents there wouldn't be the word called accidents. If a driver of a stick don't like the stick she/he drives an automatic. If u don't get it I suggest u drive a stick...





ok..............ssilb si ecnarongi

I honestly don't know what everyone complains about using a clutch in traffic, I do it all the time and it doesn't bother me a bit.

Oh, and for me, driving a stick is more fun. I dont give a damn if the SMG/Auto is faster, the pleasure I get from driving a stick outweighs whatever speed gains I would see.

I haven't driven an SMG. I'll admit that. I am basing this on comparison with Automatics, which I cannot stand. My next car will be an E46 M, so I'll try out the SMG before I buy one, but I see myself winding up in a 6sp

The way i see it, the immature burnout type fun that can be had with a standard transmission vehicle will keep the sequential manaul onslaught at bay for at least a good while to come.

No one can deny this:

The is NO substitute for a clutch and shift knob when you want to have FUN with your car.

Having complete control with a manual transmission is the best way to stay completely connected to your car during driving. No paddles can replace that feeling.

I pray that BMW keeps offering manual in all models to come. I'd want to cry if they didn't.

At my age, I really deliberated over the 6MT vs Steptronic for my 335i. But I went with the auto for the following reasons:

1. Technology has proven it to be reliable
2. It is faster
3. I wont have to put down my coffee
4. Better mileage, yes better mileage.
5. Warranty covers repairs
6. The last car I had to sell was manual and it killed the deal about six times
7. you can shift manually if you want to

Now, I love to drive manuals, but the technology is great and resisting computerized shifting altogether makes about as much sense as manually balancing your checkbook these days. It is just not necessary. Still, I respect the people who do consider driving a manual part of the fun, because I do too, occasionally.

If you want to go faster you need an AUTO. The auto shifts faster than any human can. We americans just feel the need to shift. Myself I prefer the manual tranny but for tur spped the auto wins. that is why F1 cars are autos!!

Your an idiot. EVERYONE in Europe drives stick. For Christ sake, they make the freakin 7 series in a stick there.

I hope we never see the total demise of the stick b/c it helps brace the driver. You can grab it for balancing your body -- despite the seatblet. Which is why I don't like paddle switches b/c I feel myself lurching to and fro and that the only thing securing me is a seatbelt. For those of us born before seatbelts were mandatory and who got used to driving without them, this is an uncomfortable feeling. I still prefer driving "naked" (w/o a seatbelt) and wish they'd change the laws to make seatbelts optional.

Your an idiot. EVERYONE in Europe drives stick. For Christ sake, they make the freakin 7 series in a stick there.

You probably want to use proper grammar, or else you're going to look like the idiot.

+1 to your point though.

-Kenny

For Christ sake, they make the freakin 7 series in a stick there.They made the 7-series in manual. The E65 is only available in automatic.

i love the clutch pedal.... i drive an auto but still its so much more fun to drive....... then just putting the bitch in drive and going..... i will be getting a chance to drive smg shortly so i will see how that goes but im still a fan of stick.

Stick is still standard in the '07 models, except for the X5, whereas auto trannies cost extra to add as options (although not the X3 where it's a no-cost option). As I said in another post earlier today, you typically *do* get better gas mileage in a manual, but often the BMW automatics get equal or better gas mileage because the shifts are so efficient. People who drive stick poorly (by coming off the clutch too fast, stalling often, or giving it more gas than necessary when upshifting) can get worse mileage than they would in an auto.

The US is really the only country in the world where automatics are more popular. Being that it's a German company, I seriously doubt that BMW would discontinue the manual transmission entirely.

- Carolyn
BMW Client Advisor, Nashua NH

Well many people have made a good point that steptronic, or SMG, etc. is a faster method of shifting. Also, the rev matching and perfect shifts are wonderful. BUT! driving wouldnt be so great if everything was so easy. What if the computer started to drive the car for us. Sure, it turns better, and never gets distracted. Im all for new technology and all, but taking the Stick away is taking away the fun and essence of driving. Every single person that reads and or looks at these forums loves cars and driving. Taking away the superior control of the cars we drive and letting a computer do it is ridiculous. To those who dont like a stick you just dont and thats fine. Those of us who have or do drive it know what is so great. At the end of the day control of a machine is what makes driving FUN! Taking away a stickshift would be like playing a sport with robotic arms, sure its stronger and faster, but it takes away the experince. -My 2 cents

In America driving is for common people so enthusiasts differentiate themselves with the stick. In Europe, less people own cars and everybody drives manual, so those who've made it upgrade to the automatics.

In America there are 10 non-luxury cars for every 1 luxury car (and remember, the average 3 is at the bottom of the luxury car price ranges.) In Europe there are three non-luxury cars for every 1 luxury car.

There will always be simple machines that require skill to operate, for fun, even if its not necessary anymore. For example in aviation you can just buy a ticket and not have to do anything to go flying, but if you like flying you can still buy new airplanes where you have to do EVERYTHING, even down to adjusting the engine's fuel/air mixture.

driving a manual is fun. thats about it for me i guess.

There is a much larger concentration of Manuals


1. Shifting must be done, be it on a track or on a road
2. Shifting effectively in a non traditional manual transmission is done
by the driver just no clutch
3. A semiautomatic tweener) gearbox is computer controled and will allow
the user in most cases to override the programing until certain levels are reached which may damage the engine.
4. A true clutch pedal less manual must be shifted

I live an hour and a half from the Ring in Germany and am lucky to have a veteran FIA instructor who lives about fifteen minutes fom the Ring as a friend. He and I are in our forties, He is a senior instructor who would be signing your FIA License and is on the organizing comittee for the 24 hour race there.

I am working on my track skills and went round with him in a training session
(for me) in a track prepared BMW 1 series 130? But stripped and made for the track exclusively

He has raced VWs Porsches and Audis for many years, and pointed out that Porsche using a clutchless sportomatic gearbox (clutch is hydraulic, you still had to shift) to win a famous 72 hour endurance race in Europe in 1967-68

He had a Manual Box and we discussed shifting, since Most race cars are one type of manual or another. He, I believe correctly stated that if the driver cannot constantly control the point of a shift and the effect on the drivetrain for even a milisecond it could lead to disaster. If you shift the car you have control, if a computer does, and it can do so exactly when you want thats fine however, the HMG (sp) had a mind of its own and caused some incidents at the track. A true clutchless manual did not.

There is a huge difference on who controls the shifting in this case, you or the computer.

Every Transmission has a Clutch, no exceptions

Food for thought from Sunny (Today) Germany

He had an interesting point, That a transmission must be consistant in a race car at all times during a session. If you count on the power being there it must not deviate or you might die (my translation)


Gmund48

Cars
Chryrlsers, Fords, Porsches, VWs and soon a 335 cab
Does it really matter ?

What kind of High performance drivers training do you have besides your drivers license ?

I learned to drive on both automatic and manual transmissions, and as a result, will never buy any car with an automatic. I can understand buying a smg/dsg-type gearbox for track work, but for me, even as a daily driver, I will always choose a manual car.

A manual transmission car is just much more fun to me. I cannot stand the automatic thinking it is smarter than me, shifting whenever it wants to and to the highest gear it thinks is appropriate. I've driven the new Dodge Charger and Acura TL, both auto, and hated both cars. Yes, Hated. They both have "sport" modes that allow you to shift yourself, but it is still slow, still shifts when it damn well pleases unless I'm flooring it, and is amazingly jerky. I've driven multiple other automatic and CVT cars and hated them even more.

I will always drive a manual transmission even if it means I never buy a new car. That's how much I despise automatics. I would consider SMG/DSG-like things for track work only, and even then, only if I was doing serious racing rather than for-fun weekend runs.

Just my 02 cents.