In the near future im going to be able to rid myself of my 328is which has been struggling to stay somewhere inbetween "nice car" and "bucket", and get something new.

My question is will an Mcoupe with the necessary track mods serve well for a daily/trackday car? I know there are better choice, its just that ive always wanted either an mcoupe or an e30m3(i still dont know which i want to go with but i dont have to ask about the e30). If i get a set of track wheels/tires and some coilovers ect. will it handle decently, snap oversteer? understeer because of its big nose... i just dont know what to expect with the coupe.

Im not just curious, id really like some insight on how these things react when driven hard.


edit/p.s.

Not that im as clueless about it, but some comments on the e30m3 would be cool if you happen to track one or know. And dont bother with the "just get a 325 and put the extra money into it", i love the e30m3.. it would serve as my daily, i mearly want to track the car that i like. thanks in advance

Hopefully someone with real practical experience will chime in for the handling characteristics. I can tell you that I track many days out of each year. I know a couple of instructors in the mid atlantic region that use the M Coupe as their track cars. I haven't heard anything from them indicating they are difficult or tricky. they certainly can hustle around a track in the right hands. I'd love to have one as a track car. I luv the damn things. Practicality as a daily driver. Well that would depend on how many seats, doors and cargo space your typically going to need. I'm sure you can figure that one out. If you get one, I'll be the jealous guy trying to run you down with his kiddie haulin M3/4.

i just dont know what to expect with the coupe.Obviously. :D
Why do you want to do all those mods?
How about driving the crap out of it first?
When you can exceed the limits of the car, then upgrade.

The car stock will be a better track car/daily driver.
Only limitation I see is that there is not enough trunk space for tires.
Either drive on the same tires you got there on or you need a tire trailer.

Obviously. :D
Why do you want to do all those mods?
How about driving the crap out of it first?
When you can exceed the limits of the car, then upgrade.

The car stock will be a better track car/daily driver.
Only limitation I see is that there is not enough trunk space for tires.
Either drive on the same tires you got there on or you need a tire trailer.

Steve, your so logical. That's why everybody luvs ya man! K_

Hopefully someone with real practical experience will chime in for the handling characteristics. I can tell you that I track many days out of each year. I know a couple of instructors in the mid atlantic region that use the M Coupe as their track cars. I haven't heard anything from them indicating they are difficult or tricky. they certainly can hustle around a track in the right hands. I'd love to have one as a track car. I luv the damn things. Practicality as a daily driver. Well that would depend on how many seats, doors and cargo space your typically going to need. I'm sure you can figure that one out. If you get one, I'll be the jealous guy trying to run you down with his kiddie haulin M3/4.

yea i dont mind the impracticality much, ive driven a z3 around and its just fine, i dont need much cargo room either.

and 328man, of course im not going to mod the hell out of it before it sees the track, and thats consistant wiht any car.(id probably do shocks though) But you ask why i would mod it? because i like to mod cars, no arguement there.

Linky to a good thread on the topic:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562549

Look for css's comments - Chris is an instructor around the midwest for the BMWCCA.

Sitting on top of the rear wheels, short wheel-base, gobs of power, etc. is blast around the track.

Common suspension mods are a TCK S/A or D/A suspension, 500/600 springs, H&R front sway and no rear sway. Tune the suspension to suit tires and driving style.

Nothing is really "required" for the track. You need to be aware that a stock suspension coupe has an odd double set to the suspension. Seams that the rebound damping on the OE shocks is wrong. Adding IE subframe bushes makes a HUGE difference the handling of the car.

There are bolt in rollbars available - autopower.

A note on the size of the car, if you are anywhere near 6' 2-3" or so, you'll have a problem fitting with a helmet on with stock seats. Race shells will drop you up to 2" and get the head room for helmet. I'm 6'3" and have a race shell on the floor. Buckled in with a 6-point harness, my helmet just brushes the head liner.

M Coupe for daily driver, Spec Miata for a track car. You will save money, have a better daily driver, and a better track car this way.

Everyone goes down the path of the "ultimate compromise machine" and ends up with a car too stiff for street comfort, and too soft to be fun on the track, with mucho expensive consumables.

I forgot. They do have subframe issues like other E36s.

They have subframe/diff support issues like any BMW Z roadster/coupe. Moreso since they have all that extra torque. I spent 11 hours fixing one that has never been on the track before. Nice. The sheet metal for the uni-body back there is more like thick foil than sheet.

I have no personal experience with the way they handle, only the constant bitching from my two business partners about how much they suck around the track compared to any regular E36. "Twitchy", "turn-in then countersteer immediately", and "undriveable" are the phrases they use the most. Both are DE instructors (I'm still a lowly student).

They have subframe/diff support issues like any BMW Z roadster/coupe. Moreso since they have all that extra torque. I spent 11 hours fixing one that has never been on the track before. Nice. The sheet metal for the uni-body back there is more like thick foil than sheet.

I have no personal experience with the way they handle, only the constant bitching from my two business partners about how much they suck around the track compared to any regular E36. "Twitchy", "turn-in then countersteer immediately", and "undriveable" are the phrases they use the most. Both are DE instructors (I'm still a lowly student).


Ummm, James? We need to talk!

Neil

I have no personal experience with the way they handle, only the constant bitching from my two business partners about how much they suck around the track compared to any regular E36. "Twitchy", "turn-in then countersteer immediately", and "undriveable" are the phrases they use the most. Both are DE instructors (I'm still a lowly student).

Sounds like your two partners are driving the M Coupe like an e36 and expecting it to handle the same. :rolleyes

James,

Brain Hair my co-driver this year seems to LOVE my car! John Doby drove it last week, loved it also.

Every issue you brought up can be addressed. :)

I owned and drovw a '99 M COupe on track at Watkins Glen and Summit Point for 2 seasons and did one long drive to Spartanburg from NJ.

Heres my insight.

Fun daily driver. Always gets looks. Trunk is adequate for trips up to 4 days. Packing takes some prioritizing though. Stock ride is smooth but firm.

Stock seats are, ok. Not enough thigh, rear end and lower back support. I solved this by raising the front of the seat with some spacers. No shoulder support. That was solved by installing a HMS MCoupe harnessbar with 4 pt Schroth Competition belts cinched down tight. With the front of the seat raised, the gap between the steering wheel and my highs was small, 2" at most. I would replace the wheel with a momo unit to gain some extra clearance. I would also replace the stock seats with a fixed back seat to gain some headroom and much more body support. Sunroof-less M COupes provide an additional 1-2" of headroom.

Harnessbar compromises rear storage space further. For a track outing, count on more item prioritizing, wearing the same clothes more than once and investing in some soft luggage. Say good-bye to a passenger as you will have to pack stuff in the pas. footwell.

Long trips do not leave one exhausted.

The car is a blast to drive on track. Having come from a 1.9L z3 I was already accustomed to the trailing arm suspension. In stock form and with decent z rated tires using stock fitment and race pads (PF97), the car has amazingly high limits. In my time on track, the car felt solid and predictable

The sort wheelbase made it very easy to rotate and faciliated throttle steering especially in the toe of the boot at Watkins Glen or at the carousel at SPR.

Power was much more than adequate and uphill passing was a breeze.

Although I did not feel this, other drivers behind me noticed that my rear end would wiggle back and forth in long turns such as Turn 5 at the glen. I suppose its due to the way the e30 derived rear suspension reacts to toe changes.

At high speed tracks, understeer is present but manageable with throttle inputs in turns such as 7 at WGI.

While the seating issue can be worked around, the cars weak spot is the stock suspension. Some dive under heavy braking, squat under heavy accleration, slow clumsy lateral direction changes with quick right/left turns such as the one found on the back end at Summit Point.
Under very heavy threshold braking, such as going into turn 1 at WGI, the rear will wag back and forth, requiring small steering wheel corrections.

The cars aerodynamics limit top end speed.

Had I kept the car, I would have replaced the suspension.

While not as easy to drive fast as an e36 M3, much satisfaction can be derived from driving it properly. For a new MCoupe driver or one not used to the e30 rear with a short wheelbase, one must show respect. You learn to drive it fast. If you try to beat the learnign curve, it will bite. A new driver should work on keeping the rear planted.

I have no personal experience driving an m coupe on track, but i too have heard James' business partners bitching about it. Adam owns a very stock one, which i believe is the primary problem. it seems upgrades to the trailing arms are necessary to dial out the "twitchy" and "undriveable" characteristics.

I have no personal experience driving an m coupe on track, but i too have heard James' business partners bitching about it. Adam owns a very stock one, which i believe is the primary problem. it seems upgrades to the trailing arms are necessary to dial out the "twitchy" and "undriveable" characteristics.


Adjustable shocks and Ireland Engineering subframe bushings make enormous difference. Car is a hoot to drive at track, though certainly more challenging than an E36 M3. Go for it!

Neil

I think an MCoupe is superior to an M3 or any bmw sedan as a track car. I'm not positive but I have to guess the coupe is lighter, has a lower center of gravity and is just as balanced as the M3. I've driven a couple of Mcoupes at the track and they are just a blast to drive.

I agree with others...the only 'mods' should be the subframe issue and robust maintenance to ensure something doesn't break on the track. Then maybe a set of track wheels/tires and a tire trailer and you're set.

IIRC the weight of the M Coupe is around 3100lbs.

I can only comment on the E30 M3, as I have never driven an M Coupe on the track.

I drive my E30 daily. It has a firm ride, but I like that. The balance on the track is near ideal for my driving style. A slight lift in the corner will help it rotate, if necessary. Once you get her pointed in the right direction, you can just plant your right foot since there is not a lot of HP available (very similar to my old Spec Miata). The trunk is of generous proportion. The back seat will fit humans of average size for 1-3 hours in comfort. My example returned 30.5 MPG on the way back from the Glen last time I was there. I have NO mods, and she is a blast to toss around your favorite circuit. Other than some added negative camber (to save your track tires from poor wear), the stock suspension will keep you entertained.

The M Coupe is bad-ass. I've always wanted one. Aside from it's obvious HP advantage and unique styling, I can't comment further.

It's a win-win situation, you can't make a poor decision here.

Christopher

I just got done running a DE at BeaveRun in PA in my M Coupe. It was my first but won't be my last. On my KDW tires with a stock susp. and the supercharger, I ran circles around the other Group 1 drivers, including a modded GTO. I found out how bad I suck at driving on a track and now have some things to work on. But using the M Coupe as a daily driver would get old for me. Ohio doesn't have the best roads. SoCal might work for you though. My wife used a 3.0 Z3 as a daily driver for 3 years, but it had a more forgiving suspension. That's my $0.02....

I've spent the day driving my M Coupe at the track. I'm driving tomorrow and Sunday, too. (Gotta love 3 day DEs!) This is my 10th DE and I've been running with the advanced group for some time. My car is bone stock except tires and brakes. I love it. I'm often smoking even fully prepped race cars. In stock form, I can just about keep up with a local BMW CCA CR IP E36 M3.

-bj

But using the M Coupe as a daily driver would get old for me. Ohio doesn't have the best roads. SoCal might work for you though. My wife used a 3.0 Z3 as a daily driver for 3 years, but it had a more forgiving suspension. That's my $0.02....

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. My M Coupe (MDORPHN) now has 92,000 miles, including loads of track events and 4 consective One Laps of America. I always look forward to driving it, even on Washington, DC streets.

Neil

OK, I think I can chime in. The M Coupe is my only personal car. (Wife's S4 is the family car.) I drive it to work every day (or did until I sold my company recently, but I digress). I drive it regularly on errands and on long trips to tracks up to 400 miles distant.

The car with its original suspension is very nice on the street -- not too stiff. This suspension is fine for novice / intermediate track use, just like an E36 M3. If you want to go stiffer for better track performance, expect a harsher street ride, just like an M3.

I have a TCK S/A suspension with 500 lb (soon to be 600 lb) rear springs, RD sway bars, a speedware harness bar (maintains full cargo space), Schroth 4-point harness using pretenioner with HANS (driver) and ASM (passenger) restaints. I cut grommets in the stock seat. Tall people may have trouble fitting a HANS properly in the stock seat. For track use, I put 3 tires on the roof and one in the back. I can easily carry a full load of stuff (tools, jack, spare rotors, clothes, driving gear, laptop, etc) and still see out back and side window without any obstruction. You could carry more if you filled the back completely, but be careful about exceed the rear suspension load and bottoming out on bumps (not an issue with stock suspension) In other words, no trailer needed. I can drive to close tracks on DOT R-compound tires, but I'd carry a spare just in case. (I don't do this anymore because I don't want the heat cycle from the highway on the track tires, but I did do it for a couple of years.)

On the track, I think my car is comparable to similarly prepared M3's, maybe better. I am above average in lap times compared to other instructor E36 M3's, which may have something to do with the car or me (not sure). The car is very easy to drive. Passengers often comment on how neutral it is and how easy to drive it is. It typically runs a staggered setup, with wider rear tires. This probably helps put down the power, makes you a hero in sweepers, and helps tame the E30 rear end.

With this suspension, it is a bit harsh on the street. We still often take it when going out to dinner (i.e. when the S4 could also be taken), so it can't be that bad. If a street is riddled with potholes, I avoid it or go slowly. I don't think this is different from any other car.

The ideal for you might be a stock M Coupe for the street and a miata or something cheap to trash at the track, but I assume this is not under consideration. You could make your 325 a dedicated track car, for example.

The only practical downside that I see for M Coupe track use is a) tires have to go on roof (minor hassle) or in trailer (although lots of M3's tow a trailer anyhow) and b) if you want to bring family along, especially kids, they won't fit in the M Coupe.

I think it is a fun, unusual car. It will get lots of attention on the street and at the track. The car is capable of being very quickly (see AC Coupe's 2:15 Glen lap). It is about as reliable as an M3 with the same engine, I think.

The cargo bay actually holds quite a lot. I've fit things in there that won't fit in the S4 trunk, for example.

If cost is not a problem, get a 2001 or 2002 with the S54 motor. Make sure it has had the bearing tended to under warranty -- some clubs require this. I have an S52, and I find it plenty fast. In fact, it might be more fun because there are so many E36 M3's to play with, and relatively few S54-powered cars. This will change with time, I suppose.

:eatpop: :eatpop: :eatpop:

I don't drive mine on a daily basis but I have no problems loading it up (tires on the roof) and heading 500 miles to a track for the weekend. This is with Recaro Pole positions, TCK DA 450/500. In TT a similairly modded E46 M3 and I come in with very close times.