Let me start this out by saying I've never got a speeding ticket before. I am 21 years old and had a "careless driving" ticket when 17 for not using a turn signal to change lanes. Anyway, I got a ticket tonight for speeding which is not something I do over the norm of the whole like 70 - 75 on the PA turnpike every now and then.

11 PM or so:

I was travelling on Rt 309 this evening after dropping off a video at Block Buster - did maybe 50 mph tops on the way there (speed limit is 55) then on the way back I had the issue. I was driving and a car was up my ass as I made a left from the Block Buster parking lot onto RT 309. I just let him sit there on my bumper since the area is like a Walmart/Shopping type area and the speed limit is lower than normal. Once it was in the more rural area I got up to and only slightly over the speed limit prob ably about 65 mph or so since that's about the average speed of traffic on this 2 lane highway/road. Guy is now still on my ass, only now its at this speed and so I floor it again for not that long because I went from 5th to 3rd and took third to near redline (I can't take my car much over 6000 rpm because the stock clutch slips with my turbo) - I really just wanted this guy off my ass I hate when people tail me and so I got away from him yet he still accelerated pretty close to me I'd say. I am not sure how was I was going, but I know I couldn't have accelerated past what 3rd gear is capable of because i had a very bad misfire at higher rpm in 3rd gear and put it in 4th and started braking. Then about 6 or 10 secs later, police lights behind me and I get pulled over.



Officer asks me how fast I was going, I told him I wasn't honestly sure but it couldn't have been more than 75 - 85 or so but that I was honestly not very sure (because I was in 3rd gear but I didn't tell him that). The other guy was in a Mitsubishi 3000GT - I was NOT racing this car. He followed ME (I was ahead of him) the entire time up until when I moved over. The officer said I was lying when I told him that speed but I tried to get a word in that I was not claiming that actual speed, but it had to been near there and I had not looked to notice, I had no intention of going mind blowingly fast. He went to the other car and I was unsure of what they said to one another. The officer came back saying the other guy acknowledged he was going over 100. That didn't bother me too much because I had stopped accelerating, he very well could have gone over 100 - i wouldn't really know. He told me how this would be a great experience for everyone (or something to that effect) and went to his car. Comes back and gives the other guy whatever he gave him and guy drives off. Comes back to me saying he "clocked me" (exact words) several times, at 110 or something, which I know is false - I was NOT going that fast. He handed me my ticket - I explained that this is my first speeding ticket ever and that I had not used a turn signal when I was 17 and got a "careless driving" for that and the ticket was since void from my record - he said "maybe that will help you" but not much more as to what I should do.

I come home and I read the tickets, rather upset - I talked to my girlfriend and mother about it because I was upset that I had been accused of this speed that I most certainly did not travel at. So I sat down and looked over the ticket. It says:

106 mph in a 55 mph zone
Method of proof: Radar[ ] Clocked [ ] A.O.V. [ ] ESP [ ] Vascar [ ] Other [ X] - he chose other, and wrote either "tracked" or "tracker" - can't make it out.

Then below, it says like his badge info etc and name. It says Speed timing Devices Operator: His name. Miles followed " - ". Miles timed ".0877". Secs timed "2.96".

I don't understand how he could have "tracked" me which he implied was pacing me, even though I know for 100% sure that there was no car following within 1/4 mi, but I will give him the benefit of saying 1/8 mi on this highway that has dips and such that you could not possibly see from one point to another to time a car let alone in the dark. Secondly, I deny guilt of 106 mph, but even at the max speed I was traveling, it was for no longer than 10 or so seconds - how would he have identified the issue, caught up within range to use a pacing method, and timed me for 2.96 secs, when the whole ordeal was <10 secs of speeding.

Further more - when leaving I got his attention to let him know I was sorry, I wasn't lying by claiming ~75 - 85 mph, I plainly did not know. Then when leaving he told me how dangerous it is and how if my wheel fell off I'd be dead etc. He finished by saying something to the effect of "You're lucky you didn't have an accident with my wife and daughter driving home from a party right now or we'd have bigger problems than just this." Was that a threat?

I need advice guys. The ticket doesn't read well. I am here in Quakertown, PA for school and I don't know any lawyers (nor can I really afford one, but if I had to...) in the area or anything like that - I've never had this issue, I am not a frequent law breaker. Help.

Edit: Another detail is that under the defendent (me) it says Make: BMW Type: CP which i can only assume means coupe. Well he took the time to measure my window tint and tell me it's illegal, wouldn't he notice that there are another set of doors and that'd make it a sedan?

I have no problem admitting I did wrong - I was speeding, it was in result to the instigation by the other driver, and I failed to suppress frustration and just let him pass. I did not do the 106 mph and I feel that I am being accused of that unfairly.

Jon

www.cleandrivingrecord.com

Heard this guy talk on Kid Chris show in 94.1, and he really is very smart. Uses a lot of technical stuff and should be able to give you the words you need to fight the ticket. The book is pretty fricken good.

BTW, that loud ass exhaust DEFINATELY doesnt help you. Loud automatically, in a cops mind, means you are going fast.

in my experience, ive beaten over 14 points in the last 5 years. Best bet, get a lawyer all the bs of going on your own only goes so far. Lawyers know judges and most of the time cops, cops respond easier and in a better tone and timlier fashion. Half the time with my lawyer they drop the ticket down before ever going into court then they just make a plea before case starts. Bad news. Anything over 90 in a 55 is serious points and 106 in a 55 is almost surely a suspension of some sort. Best bet find a family friend who is a lawyer and take care of this for you. Sorry to hear. Best bet is to plead not guilty, send the 50 wait for court date and in the mean time have a lawyer ready to go. You got 10 days to respond on that so in the next 8 find a lawyer. -Jason

http://members.aol.com/StatutesPA/75PA1535.html
3362-grab your ass on that one, ill wait for alan to get in here and drop the lawyer info

the first ticket i ever got i was doing 45 in a 25, 20 over and it was an undercover cop. when he wrote me up for the ticket it seemed like he wanted to kill me and thought i was a little speeding punk. i plead not guilty, when in on my court date, stepped outside with the cop and admitted to being a young, inexperienced driver, i was an asshole and i admitted i was wrong. he ended up giving me a disorderly conduct as a speeding plea agreement, no points, insurance didnt change, just a nice $175 fine. i'll take that any day over points.

Wow Jon, I didn't know the e34 could do 106 in third gear at under 6000 rpm... my 535i only did 95! Good luck with it man... I got caught doing 65 in a 35 in my e34.

Well, its your word against the cop's. Judges tend to belive cops.

How many points are on the ticket? (Might not say, some jurisdictions don't have to put it on the ticket.)

Either way, you need to hire a lawyer. There's no way around this. At the speed they say you were going (isn't 309 a 45mph speed limit?) they can really throw the book at you. Get a lawyer, its some serious money now, but you need to get the points down. You probably aren't going to come out of this clean though. Expect at least a couple points and 200-300 in fines.

I'd be very surprised if a lawyer got you off with just a fine. Of course this all depends on the cop showing up at court. If he doesn't you can probably get away with a fine.

There is a good chance you could loose your license for 15 or 60 days as well.

I really cannot afford a layer - the numbers I hear of people paying are daunting.

I just went to the area I was pulled over at. The officer wrote "309 @ Pumping Station Road". I went past that intersection by about 1/4 mile turned around and drove back the way I had been going when pulled over - there are no white timing lines anywhere near the intersection (which I was not speeding thru mind you) or to the point where I stopped my car having been pulled over. So, he apparently timed me somehow by using the distance 0.0877 miles saying I covered that distance in 2.96 seconds, yet there is nothing on the road marking that distance, and under the "method used" section of the ticket, he didn't check off VASCAR (the timing device conventionally used) so how would he have timed me without two marks on the road, without VASCAR, up and over a hill with the road bending to the right? I don't understand what he means by "tracked" or "tracker" in his method of judging my speed.

u've got a point, and ur right lawyers are so expensive u might be better off just being honest with the guy, admitting ur wrong and saying u cant afford the points and see if u can work out a speeding plea agreement.

if you can't afford a lawyer, then you can't afford the fines you are about to get. he's saying you doubled the speed limit. if you get nailed with that, you are in a heap of trouble. beg, borrow, steal, and get a lawyer. a cheap lawyer is better than no lawyer in this case.

Ok, First off, sorry you got nabbed, but it happens.

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER EVER, admit to anything over the legal limit. Once you say anything, you are guilty. You confessed. Always, Always Always, obey the officer, let them know if you have to go into the glove box for papers, whatever...Make no sudden moves. They meet a lot of really bad fellows, and you should not make them feel in the least bit threatened.

Remember you have the right to remain silent. DO SO. I have no idea if public defenders handle any traffic work, but if you are poor and need representation, give it a try.

Ok, so he said he timed you. for .0877 miles, or all of 463 feet and 2.93 secs. Fine. where? what were his reference points? when was the timing device calibrated? Is there 500 feet of line of site?

When all else fails, lie. That's what lawyers do. In fact as soon as you get pulled over, thank him, and say that you were feeling very threatened by the guy behind you, and that you were just trying to get away form an obviously deranged individual. You might even add that you think you saw a gun. And then shut your mouth.

But since you haven't watched enough Law and Order to know that you should keep your mouth shut, you admitted to 75 or 80.. you are probably screwed. Go to court, plead mercy, never do it again, blah, blah... and maybe you can get a probation before judgment. Pay the fine, no points. The points are the killer. You will be seeing those babies for the next 3 years. Every time your insurance renews.

I didn't admit to it, he MADE ME. I told him I wasn't sure and he kept wording it for me to say - hes like "just pick a number, cmon how fast do you think, just guess" im like dude I dunno I wasn't looking, I am honestly not sure. He then went up to the other car, did his thing there with him and came back and was like "well the guy up there had no issue telling me how fast he was going so what do ya think" im like "i really do not know" hes like "well he was going over 100 mph" i was like theres no way I was going that fast, I said maybe 75 - 85 tops but I am not sure. Then again, when he was walking from my car, I said "Sir, earlier when you asked me for a speed, I said 75 - 85 but am honestly not sure, I have no idea what speed I was doing" and he looked kind of like I just ruined his day and said "Ok" and went to his car. So I made it CLEAR that I wasn't sure. I told him if I was acting irresponsible i am sorry but to check my record because I have no speeding tickets ever.

Like I said, I went to the scene and theres no lines on the pavement for timing a car - so I don't know how he managed to time me, and its especially odd because if he DID use a timer, he would have marked "VASCAR" down on the method of timing, but instead he wrote X'd "OTHER" and wrote "tracked" or "tracker" - I don't think "tracker" is a police device used to time a car. Should I call the police department tomorrow and ask what that might mean?

Ok - I have more detailed information:

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/OverheadDiagram.jpg
That is where he clocked me versus where I stopped. I was doing approx 30 - 35 mph as he approached not sure as to if he was pulling me over or what. I stopped in that shoulder just before the driveway, and then ultimately he made us go up into the driveway for that Marine store called Highway Marine.

Another map with scale to confirm it was a total of about .39 miles from him that i pulled over:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/OverHeadDiagramWithScale.jpg

He said he "timed" or "clocked me" several times. As I said, I went to the area today and there are no timing marks what so ever in the road. I looked on Google Earth to confirm. I am correct. I went and looked further up 309 and found example timing marks to show how clear and obvious they are:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/TimingMarks.jpg
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/TmingMarks2.jpg
That shows the same timing marks NOT AT MY PULL OVER LOCATION from a more zoomed out POV to show them being obvious.
(This is about 2 - 2.5 miles north of where i was pulled over)

Then I scrolled all the way back to 309 and Pumping Rd:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks.jpg
No timing marks about 1000' BEFORE the intersection.

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks2.jpg
No timing marks about 1000' after...

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks3.jpg
Even more north... no marks.

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks4.jpg
Still no marks...

http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/NoTimingMarks5.jpg
And there you see where i pulled into the Highway Marine driveway. No marks throughout that entire stretch.

So what exactly did he time me with? Here is a picture of the ticket:
http://e34.digital7.com/Ticket/ticket1.jpg
Clearly shows that VASCAR is NOT in use... he checked "other" being "tracked" or "tracker"

Toward bottom you see that he did not pace me because miles followed is "-". He timed me for 0.0877 miles which is ~463'... for 2.96 seconds.


Further more - I want to analyze the distance in which he pulled me over. Assuming he did time me from the side of the road (though he did not check off VASCAR, the timing system) he said he did it "a few times", which took me 2.96secs according to what he said to me. So if he did it a "few times" lets say 3, thats about 9 secs of timing me at 106... that'd put me at .24 miles away from him, but I was basically stopped at about .39 miles away. So how in the world did he time me (or have visual?!) for .24 miles, then catch up to me in .15 miles and pull me over... again, I assume he was not following me as there was NO car behind me and he wrote miles followed: " - "

hmm, dont know what to say.

i had a cop pull my girlfriend over while i was in the car, we were on a long stretch of road and the speed limit was 55mph. we were going right around the speed limit bc it was late and we wanted to be safe. we passed a gas station with two cops sitting there, we saw them both stare us down, 10 secs later we see his head lights coming up behind us, so we stayed right around 55mph maybe a little less, he kept following us and then BAM, turned on his lights and pulled us over. he came up to the car and asked how we were doing, he then told us we were only going 48 -50mph, we didnt argue with him bc he wasnt sure if we had been drinking or what, we checked out ok and he left. i dont understand how from him following us he could clock our speed, but i wasnt going to argue, i guess ur just in a situation were he has the law on his side and fighting the facts, while it makes sense, i dont know where it would go in court.

well he followed you - this guy was supposedly parked. if here were behidn me I'd know - there was NO car behind me. Also he states in the ticket "miles follower: ' - ' implying no follow.

Officer asks me how fast I was going, I told him I wasn't honestly sure but it couldn't have been more than 75 - 85 or so but that I was honestly not very sure (because I was in 3rd gear but I didn't tell him that). The other guy was in a Mitsubishi 3000GT - I was NOT racing this car. He followed ME (I was ahead of him) the entire time up until when I moved over. The officer said I was lying when I told him that speed but I tried to get a word in that I was not claiming that actual speed, but it had to been near there and I had not looked to notice, I had no intention of going mind blowingly fast. He went to the other car and I was unsure of what they said to one another. The officer came back saying the other guy acknowledged he was going over 100. That didn't bother me too much because I had stopped accelerating, he very well could have gone over 100 - i wouldn't really know. He told me how this would be a great experience for everyone (or something to that effect) and went to his car. Comes back and gives the other guy whatever he gave him and guy drives off. Comes back to me saying he "clocked me" (exact words) several times, at 110 or something, which I know is false - I was NOT going that fast. He handed me my ticket - I explained that this is my first speeding ticket ever and that I had not used a turn signal when I was 17 and got a "careless driving" for that and the ticket was since void from my record - he said "maybe that will help you" but not much more as to what I should do.


Further more - when leaving I got his attention to let him know I was sorry, I wasn't lying by claiming ~75 - 85 mph, I plainly did not know. Then when leaving he told me how dangerous it is and how if my wheel fell off I'd be dead etc. He finished by saying something to the effect of "You're lucky you didn't have an accident with my wife and daughter driving home from a party right now or we'd have bigger problems than just this." Was that a threat?

I need advice guys. The ticket doesn't read well. I am here in Quakertown, PA for school and I don't know any lawyers (nor can I really afford one, but if I had to...) in the area or anything like that - I've never had this issue, I am not a frequent law breaker. Help.

Jon

This is your biggest mistake. You should have not disclose your speed. The only way he could have prove you were speeding is through laser speed detectors. police radar speed detectors are insuffecient on proving you were the actual speeder on a traffic.

plead not guilty. Ask him plenty of question during the trial.
do your research on how fast the cop was going. How long he was pacing you. Was there any traffic? how fast was the traffic running?
In my 18years of driving, I have beaten 3 pacing ticket.

Guys - i didn't! He harassed me at my window saying pick a number, cmon guess, what do you think, lets go, etc... its not like I said "i think i did this speed". When he was getting back to his car i said "excuse me sir, earlier when you asked me I did not say 75 or 80 or whatever as definitive, i honestly do not know"

Ok, repeat after me, You have the RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT! He can ask you to say 14 Hail Mary's, or the pledge of allegiance, or whatever. You do not have to say a word. Sit there and say NOTHING! If you can't control yourself, admit doing the speed limit. Or, "On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer any questions without counsel present."

Take all 27 8x10 color glossies, with circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one, and go to court.

get tons of bf.com members to meet up and force this cop into changing his mind.

Sounds like you definitely have some sort of case, but I'm not a lawyer and neither are you.
If you go to court and present your evidence, it very likely they would offer a reduced charge and possibly no points.
-or-
They could present some sort of ordinance or law that could totally negate every piece of evidence you have and they find you guilty.

Unfortunately, this is why you sometimes need a lawyer. It would be my advice that if you can deal with the fact that you might be found guilty of traveling close to 2x's the speed limit, go to court without a lawyer and take your chance.

If not, hire an attorney soon.
Either way, good luck.

Sounds like you definitely have some sort of case, but I'm not a lawyer and neither are you.
If you go to court and present your evidence, it very likely they would offer a reduced charge and possibly no points.
-or-
They could present some sort of ordinance or law that could totally negate every piece of evidence you have and they find you guilty.

Unfortunately, this is why you sometimes need a lawyer. It would be my advice that if you can deal with the fact that you might be found guilty of traveling close to 2x's the speed limit, go to court without a lawyer and take your chance.

If not, hire an attorney soon.
Either way, good luck.


Attourney is no option.

I researched and this "tracker" device he wrote on my ticket seems to be a laser device. However, the fact that he told me he "clocked" me or the other car a few times implies that he made several clockings each around 2.96 secs (like he made of the one he put on my ticket). That'd be at least 9 secs of me or the other car speeding. At 106 mph sustained for 9 seconds or more, I'd be 1/4 mile away from him before here even got his car from the side road to the main road. I stopped with .38 miles of where he said he clocked me - that means either he managed to go from a standstill to over 106 mph (to catch me or the other car) in less than 9 seconds, approach me, and pull me over. I don't find this physically possible so I do no believe him that he A) clocked me/the other car multiple times B) clocked me anywhere near 106 mph. If I blew by him at 106 mph I would be probably 3/4 of a mile away from that intersection before he even caught up to me.

Also, with a laser - it's line of sight with no interuption. Not only is is line of sight, but its SPECIFICALLY directional. He said he clocked me and the other car. How did he make note of my car versus the other car while in the distance going up a hill on a highway with traffic the opposite direction, in the dark... he said the other guy admitted to doing 100+ and I did not admit to it. The other car was ahead of me, perhaps when he clocked "me" at 106 he was 1/2 to the left and clocked the car that was in head of me perhaps doing 106 mph. I don't know.

You are screwed if you do not go in with a lawyer. I know some people have gotten off -- but, those are maybe 1%. You could go in with 100 pictures, people attesting that you were not speeding, etc., and you would still lose.

Not sure why you cannot hire an attorney; but, this is too serious for you not to. You are doing double the speed limit. Hire an attorney. It should cost no more than $500 for the attorney. $500 is cheap compared to what could happen. Maybe even $250 since you are in PA and attorney's charge less there. Just a thought.

Asking for people's advice here on bf.c is not the answer. It's your a$$ -- not their's :)

If finances are precluding you from getting an attorney -- start selling crap, even if it means your car. Again, probably not what you want to hear -- and, you'll probably listen to some other person that says they went in and beat the ticket by doing x, y and z; but, I am an attorney and telling you to hire one.

If finances are precluding you from getting an attorney -- start selling crap, even if it means your car. Again, probably not what you want to hear -- and, you'll probably listen to some other person that says they went in and beat the ticket by doing x, y and z; but, I am an attorney and telling you to hire one.

That was what I was going to suggest. You need an attorney. It sounds like you have a case, but you NEED an attorney. Whether that means borrowing from your parents, selling your car, selling mods, or whatever. Sorry, it sounds like a bad situation.

I agree with getting an attorney as well. It sucks, but it may be your cheapest alternative. :eyecrazy

My first ticket I was going about 110mph in a 55mph on Rt. 66 near Vienna. The cop paced me for a short distance, not long enough to hold up in court. Bottom line, I got a family friend lawyer ($300 back in 1995), and he got the ticket reduced from reckless driving to improper driving (6pt to 3pt ticket). He saved my ass (for about 5min of work). :D

I empathise with you, and dont feel bad for telling the cop you were going "75 to 80". Cops know how to be intimidating, and after years of pulling people over, they know how to force people to "admit" something. Like "pick a number". Choice A: tell him you were doing 55mph in which case he thinks your being an ass, or Choice B: tell him you were doing 75-80mph thereby admitting guilt.

Good luck man. Please try to get a lawyer.

After looking at this ticket again, I think you got nailed with a VASCAR device.
Was it PA State Police or the local PD?
Only state PD can use radar or laser here.

Don't let the absence of painted lines fool you into thinking they can't use VASCAR. They only need to have 2 visible reference points and know the distance between them. While white lines are the most popular, they can use telephone poles, street signs, or temporarily placed objects like traffic cones, just about anything. This 309 corridor of Bucks/Montco County is notorious for some great speed traps, and it sounds like to me you drove right thru one.

Basically what I am trying to say here is don't walk into court thinking you have every possible angle covered for a victory. The police officer does this kind of stuff everyday and probably has most of the logical bases covered.

The $500 to an attorney is going to be money well spent, even if you have to borrow it or get on a payment plan.

Again, nothing but good luck to you.