Oh my god... sorry I don't have the link right now but suffice to say that yes, it will be much faster than the new 335i coupe.

Oh my god... sorry I don't have the link right now but suffice to say that yes, it will be much faster than the new 335i coupe.

The 335i was severely underrated, and I wouldnt be surprised if the M3 is a bit overrated power wise.

The 335i has already dyno'd 276/300 at the wheels, so its got more than 300/300..in fact it already has more torque than the M3 I believe

Just to throw a little common sense into this equation...

Do you think BMW NA would honestly release an M3 that was not significantly better than the 335i?

Who would buy a car that is more expensive and not better in every way?

+1 to Kevlar. Guys stop thinking that the 335 and M3 are going to be comparable. The M3 will blow the 335 out of the water on every level. Not to say the 335 isn't an awesome automobile...it is. But seriously, historically the M3 has been leaps above the next highest-line 3-series. It won't change with the E92.

only thing is with comparable mod money...the 335 will soon blow the m3 out of the water...

I dunno...how much boost can you really get out of a car running 10.5:1 compression? Experts?

Just to throw a little common sense into this equation...

Do you think BMW NA would honestly release an M3 that was not significantly better than the 335i?

Who would buy a car that is more expensive and not better in every way?

+1!! and don't forget e92 m3 will cost a LOT more than the 335i too! IF it's "only" marginally faster, BMW will have a LOT of trouble trying to sell it!!

p.s. btw, just came back from test driving the 335i, pretty nice, pretty fast (but no e46 m3, still).

only thing is with comparable mod money...the 335 will soon blow the m3 out of the water...

If you're racing in a straight line and don't give a crap about warranty or reliability...

only thing is with comparable mod money...the 335 will soon blow the m3 out of the water...
The M3 IMHO will still be a better platform to start with compared to the 335i. Ya, you can put two larger turbos on there and double the boost, but that is only a fraction of the equation. There still has to be upgraded brakes, suspension, driveline etc.

Lets not forget that the turbos are part of the exhaust manifold... so just swapping out turbos for larger ones is not going to be easy.

Comparable mod money ? uhmm I can only imagine how much mods are going to run for the 335i because of all the test time and engineering that is going to have to occur for new mods to be released !

I have read in a mag. that Dinan is going to release software and exhaust that will put the 335i to 400hp and maybe over it. How much could it cost for software and exhaust like $3500 at most?

While Dinan stated that with M cars they are no longer boosting them with superchargers but rebuilding the whole motor with more displacement ( aka bore and stroke), high compression pistions, aggessive cams, aggessive software.

The M3 IMHO will still be a better platform to start with compared to the 335i. Ya, you can put two larger turbos on there and double the boost, but that is only a fraction of the equation. There still has to be upgraded brakes, suspension, driveline etc.

Lets not forget that the turbos are part of the exhaust manifold... so just swapping out turbos for larger ones is not going to be easy.

Well put.

Let's not forget that the M3 will also have two more cylinders and at least a 100hp difference. You can put X amount of $$$$ into the 335i to match the M3 but put that same amount into that V8 engine and it's not going to be so easy to play catch up. Mods aren't going to be cheap no matter how you look at it.

The M3 will be the better platform.

Well put.

Let's not forget that the M3 will also have two more cylinders and at least a 100hp difference. You can put X amount of $$$$ into the 335i to match the M3 but put that same amount into that V8 engine and it's not going to be so easy to play catch up. Mods aren't going to be cheap no matter how you look at it.

The M3 will be the better platform.

+1

I cannot think why anyone would honestly believe that the E92 M3 would be a marginal improvement over the 335i. A great car, but not in the same league.
Yeah you could mod the 335i to get it to 400hp, but if you think horsepower is all there is to a car, go get a Mustang or a 'Vette. They sell you 500hp on a V8 with... 16 valves. Wow.
If you want a comparison the RS4 shares almost nothing at all with the existing S4. The M3 will be a totally different beast, and while some people won't be able to justify the extra $10k it will cost over the 335i, it will still be useless to compare the two. You can't race a E46M3 with an E46 330Ci, the same will hold true with the E92s.
All the same, I think the 335i will be a very good alternative for many car buyers. As for me, I can't compromise on looks and if the E92 looks as ugly as the sneak peeks we've seen... long live the E46.

+1

Thanks!



I can't compromise on looks and if the E92 looks as ugly as the sneak peeks we've seen... long live the E46.

BAH! The E92 is sleek and sexy!

Well put.

Let's not forget that the M3 will also have two more cylinders and at least a 100hp difference. You can put X amount of $$$$ into the 335i to match the M3 but put that same amount into that V8 engine and it's not going to be so easy to play catch up. Mods aren't going to be cheap no matter how you look at it.

The M3 will be the better platform.
I think you're quite wrong here...I predict that at 415 HP, BMW squeezed pretty much all the power they could out of it as it is short of forced induction. I highly doubt you'll be able to get much of any power out of it.

The 335i however instead has been severely detuned with far more potential..I've seen little places all over the engine bay making for easy upgrades and plenty potential

You can't race a E46M3 with an E46 330Ci, the same will hold true with the E92s.

Holy crap dude at least compare apples to apples...if you want an equal comparison for the E92s then you need to say "E92M3 vs E92 328i"...the 335i is a big jump over the equivilent 330ci and thus 328i in this case.

Just to throw a little common sense into this equation...

Do you think BMW NA would honestly release an M3 that was not significantly better than the 335i?

Who would buy a car that is more expensive and not better in every way?

without doubt...+1
it has been like that...M series ALWAYS outperformed non-M series.

And, as usual, most of you guys seem to be forgetting about the whole weight problem.. How many times have we read that the 335i engine is over 200 lbs lighter than whats going into the M? And how many times have we read that theres never been an M3 thats lighter than its 3 series counterparts, even when sharing similar engine configurations. IF they keep the M under 3600 lbs, then yes, it will be a 335 killer. But, if they let it grow to anywhere near 3800 lbs as is my fear, then the M will wind up being about .2 sec faster in the acceleration tests.. Thats all.

Finally, lets remember that the 335i from the factory makes about 350 hp and about 360 ft lbs (automobile magazine dynojet test). It wont take much of a weight penalty to eat up that kind of advantage very quickly.

And, as usual, most of you guys seem to be forgetting about the whole weight problem.. How many times have we read that the 335i engine is over 200 lbs lighter than whats going into the M? And how many times have we read that theres never been an M3 thats lighter than its 3 series counterparts, even when sharing similar engine configurations. IF they keep the M under 3600 lbs, then yes, it will be a 335 killer. But, if they let it grow to anywhere near 3800 lbs as is my fear, then the M will wind up being about .2 sec faster in the acceleration tests.. Thats all.

Finally, lets remember that the 335i from the factory makes about 350 hp and about 360 ft lbs (automobile magazine dynojet test). It wont take much of a weight penalty to eat up that kind of advantage very quickly.

We've seen the majority of cars in the sports sedan/coupe market enter the horsepower/performance race in the last 10 years, so it seems somewhat natural to me that the margins between the performance versions of a model variation begin to decrease. Classic diminishing return. Consider how many cars are on the market now with >275bhp, and for that matter look how many are >300bhp. So I would not really be all that surprised if the difference between the E92 335 and the E92 M3 is much narrower in most regards as compared to the E46 330 and E46 M3.

But...I'm just speculating....

how much of a difference there is can be automatically determined by looking at the e46m3..which is ALREADY faster in the 1/4 than a stock 335i...so one with half a brain can assume the e92 m3 will be a lot faster than the e46m3..making it a hell of a lot faster than the 335i...id venture to say they wouldnt put out a new m3 unless if it was capable of running high 12's..making it more then half a second faster than the 335i

all these engine comparisons of the 335i vs e92m3...are they for JUST the engine or does it include the turbo's/intercooler also..as that would narrow the gap some..not too mention the 335i doesnt use any CF correct? id say weight wise in the end there may be a 50lb dif...is the 335i even available as manual or automatic only? that would narrow the gap even more

and how many people are willing to buy a 45k car and void the warranty right off the bat just to keep up with the m3? any minor change to that 335i and you can say by by to any engine coverage and considering its a first year new production car id imagine there will be some problems so hopefully who ever goes this route has a lot of money and isnt making payments on the car...dont forget the missing LSD and suspension

The M3 IMHO will still be a better platform to start with compared to the 335i. Ya, you can put two larger turbos on there and double the boost, but that is only a fraction of the equation. There still has to be upgraded brakes, suspension, driveline etc.

Lets not forget that the turbos are part of the exhaust manifold... so just swapping out turbos for larger ones is not going to be easy.


You can put two larger turbos in the car and double the boost, but will the ECU accomodate that? You would have to re-write a lot of fuel mapping and with each progressive generation BMW has made it increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to "tune" their ECUs for more performance. You can't just slap in two larger turbos to increase boost and increase HP. I wouldn't be surprised to find BMW has made it impossible to just put larger turbos in...At this point I would think to get more HP out of the 335 from a tuner, you'd have to replace the turbos, replace the puny intercooler, and replace BMW's ECU.

Probably a lot more economical to just turbo a non-turbo BMW.

they will make the e92 m3 light i have a feeling.

And how many times have we read that theres never been an M3 thats lighter than its 3 series counterparts, even when sharing similar engine configurations.

E30 M3. Lighter than the E30 318is which uses a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder (M3 has a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder).

anyone have a link?

...At this point I would think to get more HP out of the 335 from a tuner, you'd have to replace the turbos, replace the puny intercooler, and replace BMW's ECU.

If anything is puny, its probably the turbos. The intercooler isnt really all that small actually...just because its not gargantuan doesnt mean its puny.

I also think it'll be really hard to mod the 335i, but worse comes to worse maybe MegaSquirt can make it work :dunno

E30 M3. Lighter than the E30 318is which uses a 1.8 liter 4 cylinder (M3 has a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder).


Is that right? I just did a search and came up with 2733 lbs for the E30 318is(http://www.esatclear.ie/~bpurcell/318istechinfo.html)

vs

2866 lbs for the E30 M3 (http://www.topspeed.com/cars/bmw/3-series/bmw-e30-m3-review-ar10571.html)

or about 130 lbs more for the M3. Similar results for the E36 and E46 m3s vs the top non m 3-series cpe from the same line.

HOwever this time, even though the engine is likely to be 200 lbs or more heavier than the engine in the 335, isnt the M touted to have a carbon fiber roof?!!! If true, that will certainly make up for some of the engine's wt disadvantage. If they use similar wt savings strategies through the rest of the car, then maybe there really is a chance it can come in under 3600 lbs.. And if it does, then its going to be a real hoot.. Even it it will have about 40-50 less ft lbs than a stock 335i.

OK, you talked me into an E92 M3. When are they coming out and what transmission options will be available? An auto would allow my wife to drive it, too; which would allow me to buy one. I would think that a paddle shifter (or whatever they're called) would be horrible.

Yeah carbon fiber is really light with lots of strength comparatively....but you're only going to lose so much weight by replacing body panels with it..

The idea behind a CF roof is that it lowers the center of gravity..not so much to lose overall weight IMO but is an excellent reason in itself to also use it.

I'll be damned if the E92 M3 is even *close* in weight to the other E92s. Performance enhancing stuff still adds weight, plus whatever heavy options it'll have over the 335i

i know very little about the e92s- in my opinion they are all going to be 500 lbs too heavy.

however, why would anyone think for a second that they'd build an m3 that won't completely annihilate a lesser 3 series?

where have you guys been in the last 10 years. obd2 can be flashed to any car that has obd2 ecus and if not there are a lot of aftermarket piggy back computers that will work in conjunction with the stockers. As with turbo equiped cars, any car that came with a turbo at the factory far surpasses the original whp. example evo 8/9, stock hp is 276/282 four banger w/ stock block can be pushed up to 500whp. example dodge srt4 stock 220 hp, able to push 500 hp w/ stock block, suburu sti 300hp stock, max 400whp with stock block. toyoto supra stock 275 hp, push w/ stock block 600whp. this is the reason I bought the 335i because of the potential this will have. it will be a matter of time before you will start seeing tuners working on this. another example look at the saturn sky or pontiac solstice. they are drifting these cars with 450 whp and this started with a measley 240 hp. my evo with the stock boost level I have 380whp

MkIV Supras on a stock internals can handle 800rwhp+, MkIII is "only" 500rwhp reliably though.

But yeah, as it was said if Dinan has problems making power out of it, its going to be hard to get power out of it, but a turbo car is a radically different story

i know very little about the e92s- in my opinion they are all going to be 500 lbs too heavy.

however, why would anyone think for a second that they'd build an m3 that won't completely annihilate a lesser 3 series?


Mr silence.. this isnt magic.. YOu cant just sit back and say there isnt any way they would make an M3 that would annihilate a 335.. Consider, wont you, what has been written on this here.. Also consider that the 335i makes about 50 more ft lbs than the new M3 will.. Thats got to turn your head at least a little ... Add to that the fact that the V8 in the M3 weighs at least 200 lbs more than the 335i engine, and you begin to wonder how theyre going to accomplish the weight savings that will be required to effect this annihilation you refer to.. Then, consider that every other M3 made has weighed 100-200 lbs more than the nearest Non M series counterpart with closest engine, and thats without having to consider the heavier V8 vs inline 6, and it makes it even more interesting...

If youre so sure its going to accomplish this annihilation, then you must believe its going to be lighter.. But with a 200+ lb heavier engine, and already a 50 ft lbs disadvantage, wheres the anihilation going to come from? Weight? Hp? Lets hope so. With 50 less ft lbs, but 60-70 more hp, for this annihilation to take place, its going to have to at least match the weight of the 335i, which is about 3600 lbs.. Any heavier than that, and while it might be a tenth or two better, Id hardly call that 'annihilation'! Im glad you have faith that bmw considers hi performance as important as you do for the M3.. But there are alot of people who feel bmw, like almost every other mfg has sold out, to a degree, to the factions pushing for ever larger, heavier, and cushier cars. Every M3 has been heavier, larger, and cushier than the one that came before. They can keep acceleration numbers down by using ever larger engines. Unfortunately, thats not a formula the M3 performance faithful like to follow. Weight is the simple killjoy to performance and handling..

If youre so sure its going to accomplish this annihilation, then you must believe its going to be lighter.. But with a 200+ lb heavier engine, and already a 50 ft lbs disadvantage, wheres the anihilation going to come from? Weight? Hp? Lets hope so.

Paul, where are you getting this information on the new M V8 (weight and power specs)? I haven't seen any data released, official or otherwise.

If you go by this: 4.0L V8 307kW 420Nm (bi-VANOS 3rd gen.) engine, then that's 412 hp and 310 lb-ft.

That's compareed to 300 hp & 300 lb-ft for the 335 (according to bmwusa site).

Still haven't seen any weight comparison between the 335's engine and the new M V8.

Where do you get all this?

For all I know the 335i turbo engine is still the old aluminium block as used in the other 330i's. The 330i has the new magnesium version, but not the 335i. If they build a aluminium V8, I don't see why it should be 200 lbs heavier. Doesn't have the added weight from the turbo's either.

A V8 will make a better handling chassis, altough it might be heavier, it can be placed further back affecting the centre of gravity as opposed to the inline 6.

Then the transmission, probably the V8 will have a set of hotter cams, coupled with the 7 speed SMGIII which keeps it in it's powerband all the time. The extra torque from the turbo engine is nice, but a lot of torque on the bottom end gets you nowhere speedwise as you shift to 2nd gear and start at 4500-5000 rpm already.

Then the E92 M3 will probably have a decent LSD, probably the variable M lock system, as opposed to the open diff on the 335i. So it will get more power to the pavement.

I don't see the 335i in front of the E92 M3 anytime soon.

Not to mention better brakes etc.

Where do you get all this?

For all I know the 335i turbo engine is still the old aluminium block as used in the other 330i's. The 330i has the new magnesium version, but not the 335i. If they build a aluminium V8, I don't see why it should be 200 lbs heavier. Doesn't have the added weight from the turbo's either.

I expect to see an alum-mag block on the M3's V8 and that it will weight about the same as the I-6 turbo.
It will also be shorter than the I-6, so BMW will be able to place the V8 further back in the chassis. I also read somewhere that the wheelbase on the M3 will be longer than on other E92's by a couple of inches.

So I am expecting a 50/50 weight distribution for the M3, bettering that for the 335i.

So I am expecting a 50/50 weight distribution for the M3, bettering that for the 335i.

... which is 51.2% front and 48.8% back... OH MY GOD NO!!!!!! Why did those germans screw up the 335i so badly!!!! What the hell were they thinking!!?!?

I love how many people "know" how much torque the new M3 will have and know it will be 50 ft lbs more than the 335 when you don't work for BMW and the engine specs have yet to be released :rolleyes

I think the Stock M3 will be better in all aspects then the stock 335.

If you start to talk about modding, then throw the whole comparison out of the window. With the right amount of money there are alot of cars that you can mod to produce more HP than a stock M3.

I expect to see an alum-mag block on the M3's V8...

I don't think that'll happen. Magnesium still is too brittle to hold up to 8,000 RPM redline. Most likely it'll be built from the same material the M5/M6 V10 block, which is aluminum or aluminum with iron inserts I think.

I think the Stock M3 will be better in all aspects then the stock 335.

If you start to talk about modding, then throw the whole comparison out of the window. With the right amount of money there are alot of cars that you can mod to produce more HP than a stock M3.

Yup starting with Evo or WRX STi. My friend bought a souped up Evo with 25k miles on it for $28k, it rips any M3 and many high performance cars - e.g Vantage V8.

Then again you can mod an E46 and have north of 550hp, however with a relatively low torque at low rpms.

You need to realize that many people don't like to muck with the engine since it voids any insurance (at least on the modified parts), and how expen$ive it can be.

Mr silence.. this isnt magic.. YOu cant just sit back and say there isnt any way they would make an M3 that would annihilate a 335.. Consider, wont you, what has been written on this here.. Also consider that the 335i makes about 50 more ft lbs than the new M3 will.. Thats got to turn your head at least a little ... Add to that the fact that the V8 in the M3 weighs at least 200 lbs more than the 335i engine, and you begin to wonder how theyre going to accomplish the weight savings that will be required to effect this annihilation you refer to.. Then, consider that every other M3 made has weighed 100-200 lbs more than the nearest Non M series counterpart with closest engine, and thats without having to consider the heavier V8 vs inline 6, and it makes it even more interesting...

If youre so sure its going to accomplish this annihilation, then you must believe its going to be lighter.. But with a 200+ lb heavier engine, and already a 50 ft lbs disadvantage, wheres the anihilation going to come from? Weight? Hp? Lets hope so. With 50 less ft lbs, but 60-70 more hp, for this annihilation to take place, its going to have to at least match the weight of the 335i, which is about 3600 lbs.. Any heavier than that, and while it might be a tenth or two better, Id hardly call that 'annihilation'! Im glad you have faith that bmw considers hi performance as important as you do for the M3.. But there are alot of people who feel bmw, like almost every other mfg has sold out, to a degree, to the factions pushing for ever larger, heavier, and cushier cars. Every M3 has been heavier, larger, and cushier than the one that came before. They can keep acceleration numbers down by using ever larger engines. Unfortunately, thats not a formula the M3 performance faithful like to follow. Weight is the simple killjoy to performance and handling..

so obviously you think the new m3 will be no faster than the e46m3 correct...if it will only be a few tenths faster than the 335...need i remind you the e46m3 is a few tenths faster than the 335 already. Id say thats kinda pushin the ignorant side, while not ALL new cars outperform the previous generation..90% of the time they do when it comes to performance cars like M series and other sports cars...imagine if the new vette was no faster than the old...or the new mustang no faster than the old...dont think bmw will make a new m3 no faster than the e46m3. Meaning it willl rape a 335i stock v stock in a straight line. Also no one has supplied a source for these weight comparisons NOR has no one answered wether the 335i engine weight includes turbos and supporting parts.

I love how many people "know" how much torque the new M3 will have and know it will be 50 ft lbs more than the 335 when you don't work for BMW and the engine specs have yet to be released :rolleyes

kinda like when people "know" how much the new e92 m3 will weigh when they dont work for bmw..lol and last time i checked everyone was saying the 335 will have 50 more ft lbs than the m3 not the other way around...thanks to the turbo and it dyno'ing at 300ft/lb

kinda like when people "know" how much the new e92 m3 will weigh when they dont work for bmw..

owned

I don't know if you guys seen the new M3, but I think it looks like the one in the attached picture. Tell what you think.
About the specs, some speculate about the how much or less torque has against the 335, but I've digged all the german sites and I couldn't find anything about the new M3.
If somebody like Paul knows so much about it, please post a link so we can all be wise...

Crap, I missed out on all the fun today! (This coming from a 9-year E36 M3 owner)

Can't wait to revisit this thread when the official specs are released.

That's a great number. I'm really looking forward to the E92 M3; if it turns out to be as attractive as some of the spy shots have indicated, it will most likely be my next car.

kinda like when people "know" how much the new e92 m3 will weigh when they dont work for bmw..lol and last time i checked everyone was saying the 335 will have 50 more ft lbs than the m3 not the other way around...thanks to the turbo and it dyno'ing at 300ft/lb

I never said the E92 M3 will weigh any specific weight. I never said "I know" how much the new E92 M3 will weigh. Quit putting in my words in my mouth that suit your position. This thread is about predicting very specific HP and torque outputs. "everyone was saying" the 335 will have 50 ft-lbs more torque is bullshit because "everybody saying" has nothing to do with the actual car or historical trends.

I said the E92 M3 will weigh at least what the E46 weighs, and is highly likely to weigh more. The E30 M3 was heavier than the E30, same for the E36 M and non-m, and the same for the E46 as well. With a larger engine and larger overall dimensions, it's pretty danm obvious the new M3 will be heavy. It is NOT obvious that the new car will have exactly 415 HP and 300 ft-lbs :rolleyes

I never said the E92 M3 will weigh any specific weight. I never said "I know" how much the new E92 M3 will weigh. Quit putting in my words in my mouth that suit your position. This thread is about predicting very specific HP and torque outputs. "everyone was saying" the 335 will have 50 ft-lbs more torque is bullshit because "everybody saying" has nothing to do with the actual car or historical trends.

I said the E92 M3 will weigh at least what the E46 weighs, and is highly likely to weigh more. The E30 M3 was heavier than the E30, same for the E36 M and non-m, and the same for the E46 as well. With a larger engine and larger overall dimensions, it's pretty danm obvious the new M3 will be heavy. It is NOT obvious that the new car will have exactly 415 HP and 300 ft-lbs :rolleyes

Thats funny...cause these 3 quotes were spewed from your face while arguing under the "new pig in town" thread about the e92m3. Maybe you should pay attention to the shit you say more, but then again it would make it harder for you to be a hyprocrite :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes there's a few of those for you since you seem to like to use them so much when you think you've made a good point...yeah you didnt make anyyyy ASSumptions about weight, guessing you work for bmw?:lol

"when I've been talking about reducing the weight of the E92, not comparing it to the E46 M3. I don't give a shit if the E92 performs better. A 4000 lb car is not a performance car. Period."

"Performance parameters where the E46 M3 sucks and the E92 M3 will suck harder. A track ready car means a car that will be fun at the track. A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one."

"Right now, you have the option of power seats, but I am FORCED to have them even if I don't want them. I am FORCED to have a big, heavy, 3800 lb."

Thats funny...cause these 3 quotes were spewed from your face while arguing under the "new pig in town" thread about the e92m3. Maybe you should pay attention to the shit you say more, but then again it would make it harder for you to be a hyprocrite :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes there's a few of those for you since you seem to like to use them so much when you think you've made a good point...yeah you didnt make anyyyy ASSumptions about weight, guessing you work for bmw?:lol

"when I've been talking about reducing the weight of the E92, not comparing it to the E46 M3. I don't give a shit if the E92 performs better. A 4000 lb car is not a performance car. Period."

"Performance parameters where the E46 M3 sucks and the E92 M3 will suck harder. A track ready car means a car that will be fun at the track. A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one."

"Right now, you have the option of power seats, but I am FORCED to have them even if I don't want them. I am FORCED to have a big, heavy, 3800 lb."

self owned

"when I've been talking about reducing the weight of the E92, not comparing it to the E46 M3. I don't give a shit if the E92 performs better. A 4000 lb car is not a performance car. Period."

"Performance parameters where the E46 M3 sucks and the E92 M3 will suck harder. A track ready car means a car that will be fun at the track. A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one."

"Right now, you have the option of power seats, but I am FORCED to have them even if I don't want them. I am FORCED to have a big, heavy, 3800 lb."

Damn right I assume the new M3 will be heavier. EVERY base M3 EVER built has been heavier than it's corresponding standard 3 series coupe. EVERY generation of the M3 has been heavier than the last. Every base 3 series has been heavier than the last. It's think it's pretty goddamn obvious the new M3 will weigh more than your car :rolleyes

I think it's stupid however, to go beyond guessing and assuming and state the M3 will have 415 BHP and 300 ft-lbs as a FACT.

Again trollboy, you fail to read. Where did I say "the M3 WILL WEIGH 3,800 or 4,000 lbs?" Point that out for me. Where did I assert any specific weight like people are doing with HP/torque?

So you're telling me that "A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one" means "the new M3 will weigh 4,000 lbs?"

or that "A 4000 lb car is not a performance car. Period." means "the new M3 will weigh 4,000 lbs?"

Please, just shut up. I never, ever said the M3 WILL BE a certain weight. I merely stated that it will more than likely be heavier than the E46 M3.

self owned

Says the guy who thinks asserting an E36 M3 with an S54 will be faster than a heavier car with the same engine and suspension is anything other than obvious/fact.

:rolleyes

Damn right I assume the new M3 will be heavier. EVERY base M3 EVER built has been heavier than it's corresponding standard 3 series coupe. EVERY generation of the M3 has been heavier than the last. Every base 3 series has been heavier than the last. It's think it's pretty goddamn obvious the new M3 will weigh more than your car :rolleyes

I think it's stupid however, to go beyond guessing and assuming and state the M3 will have 415 BHP and 300 ft-lbs as a FACT.

Again trollboy, you fail to read. Where did I say "the M3 WILL WEIGH 3,800 or 4,000 lbs?" Point that out for me. Where did I assert any specific weight like people are doing with HP/torque?

So you're telling me that "A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one" means "the new M3 will weigh 4,000 lbs?"

or that "A 4000 lb car is not a performance car. Period." means "the new M3 will weigh 4,000 lbs?"

Please, just shut up. I never, ever said the M3 WILL BE a certain weight. I merely stated that it will more than likely be heavier than the E46 M3.


http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7383717&postcount=95
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7384160&postcount=97
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7387295&postcount=104

Says the guy who thinks asserting an E36 M3 with an S54 will be faster than a heavier car with the same engine and suspension is anything other than obvious/fact.

:rolleyes

I find it ironic that you're accusing someone else of being a troll when you don't own ANY version of an M3 yet you continue to dig around in all branches of the forums looking for any excuse to make a comment about weight.

As far as speculating, as a soon to be engineer I would think you of all people should appreciate the complexity of design. Using isolated bulk measures can lead to a general conclusion (read speculation), however the real facts are not revealed until proper analysis is complete. So forgive me, oh sage one, for being specific.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7383717&postcount=95


"Exactly. My car weighs 2650 with a half tank of gas, a gutted trunk and no rear seats. The new M3 weighs 3415 before power seats, leather, and a sunroof. I could easily see one weighing 1000 lbs more than my car. Anyone who can't feel 1000 lbs shouldn't be driving."

Typo. I intended to say that the CURRENT M3 weighs 3415. (notice how I used the present tense . . . the new M3 isn't out yet . . .) The current M3 weighs exactly 3415 in stock trim, and we were discussing the 318 vs E46 M3 in braking, so it's pretty obvious I was talkign about teh current M3 and not the new one.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7384160&postcount=97

I don't see a statement like "the new M3 will weight xxxx.xx lbs." Could you find it and point it out for me? I can't find a statement where I said the E92 M will have some specific weight.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7387295&postcount=104

Again, I didn't say the E92 would be any specific weight. I do believe it will weigh more than it's predecessor, just like EVERY 3 SERIES AND M3 EVER BUILT.

I find it ironic that you're accusing someone else of being a troll when you don't own ANY version of an M3 yet you continue to dig around in all branches of the forums looking for any excuse to make a comment about weight. [/QUOTE]

Yeah I won't be a potential E92 buyer who's hoping the car comes out in a trim I could see myself buying . . .

Look dude, you obviously have some problem with me that I don't at all care to resolve. You follow me around in OT, you follow me around in the M3 forums and you dispute ANYTHING I say no matter WHAT it is. Case in point: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7425977&postcount=13

Of course an E36 M3 with an S54 will be faster. An E36 Euro is faster, and the car in that post is going to be more powerful and lighter. It's absolutely obvious, but you just want to object to anything I say. Fine, but pick your battles, becuase in that thread you looked absolutely stupid doubting the E36 would be faster, hence all the replies agreeing with me.

You want to paint me for having commited the same "crime" as the people in this thread, but it's blatantly obvious I am NOT spewing premature facts and assumptions about the new M3.

People are posting that they KNOW for a FACT that the new M3 will have EXACTLY 50 ft-lbs less than the 335. There is no historical trend. All previous M3's did not have 50 ft-lbs more than their base 3 series or anything else like that. People in this thread are saying the M3 has exactly 415 HP and exactly 300 ft-lbs. I have never, ever, not once - stated the new M3 will weigh ANY specific weight like people have done here with power and torque. I have suggested it will weigh more than the current M3, but that is EXTREMELY likely given the weight of the 335i and the weight of all M3's in comparison to their 3 series counterparts.

Stop pulling strings and trying to prove otherwise. I have NEVER said "the E92 M3 will weigh xxxx.xx lbs." EVER.

[/thread]

Yeah I won't be a potential E92 buyer who's hoping the car comes out in a trim I could see myself buying . . .

Look dude, you obviously have some problem with me that I don't at all care to resolve. You follow me around in OT, you follow me around in the M3 forums and you dispute ANYTHING I say no matter WHAT it is.



I don't follow you around, you post everywhere and are impossible to miss I look at/post in E46M3 (as I have an E46 M3), E92M3 (as I'm on the wait list for one), 5 series (as I have a 530i), and OT.

So why, if you never have any intention of owning an M3 do you visit/post in the forums? It appears to me that you walk around with a stick looking for a hornet nest to stick it into. So forgive me for giving it right back.

Slowly by slowly we're off the topic...

I don't follow you around, you post everywhere and are impossible to miss I look at/post in E46M3 (as I have an E46 M3), E92M3 (as I'm on the wait list for one), 5 series (as I have a 530i), and OT.

So why, if you never have any intention of owning an M3 do you visit/post in the forums? It appears to me that you walk around with a stick looking for a hornet nest to stick it into. So forgive me for giving it right back.

I am considering an E92 in the future (if it can compete with the GT3), and the S54 swap into an E36 M3 would pretty much be my favorite BMW ever. I think it should be moved to the E36 M3 forum though. Those are the only "hornests nests" I ever visit and my reason for doing so are totally justified IMO.

Damn right I assume the new M3 will be heavier. EVERY base M3 EVER built has been heavier than it's corresponding standard 3 series coupe. EVERY generation of the M3 has been heavier than the last. Every base 3 series has been heavier than the last. It's think it's pretty goddamn obvious the new M3 will weigh more than your car :rolleyes

I think it's stupid however, to go beyond guessing and assuming and state the M3 will have 415 BHP and 300 ft-lbs as a FACT.

Again trollboy, you fail to read. Where did I say "the M3 WILL WEIGH 3,800 or 4,000 lbs?" Point that out for me. Where did I assert any specific weight like people are doing with HP/torque?

So you're telling me that "A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one" means "the new M3 will weigh 4,000 lbs?"

or that "A 4000 lb car is not a performance car. Period." means "the new M3 will weigh 4,000 lbs?"

Please, just shut up. I never, ever said the M3 WILL BE a certain weight. I merely stated that it will more than likely be heavier than the E46 M3.

again you get your panties all in a wad..settle down little man. wtf car were you referring to idiot...the e92 m3..you were referring to it when you said 3800lbs and again when you said 4000lbs..read the whole quote i pasted dont repost parts of it...you get done ragging on the e92m3 and then proceed to make a comparison to a 3800/4000lb car...only a moron couldnt decipher which car you were claiming would weigh that much. otherwise why the hell would you even post those numbers...then again i wouldnt put it past you considering some of the irrelevent crap that comes from you. you're worse than john kerry when it comes to switching sides and changing stories...bet you evcen voted for him lol

again you get your panties all in a wad..settle down little man. wtf car were you referring to idiot...the e92 m3..you were referring to it when you said 3800lbs and again when you said 4000lbs..read the whole quote i pasted dont repost parts of it...you get done ragging on the e92m3 and then proceed to make a comparison to a 3800/4000lb car...only a moron couldnt decipher which car you were claiming would weigh that much. otherwise why the hell would you even post those numbers...then again i wouldnt put it past you considering some of the irrelevent crap that comes from you. you're worse than john kerry when it comes to switching sides and changing stories...bet you evcen voted for him lol

You can't read and comprehend at the same time, can you?

I said NO 4000 LB CAR IS A REAL SPORTS CAR. That in no way implies that the E92 will be 4,000 lbs. It means that any car near 4,000 lbs is not a pure sports car. I made no claims about anything weighing 3800 or 4000 lbs. Learn to read.

You sound like you're still in high school (and barely getting by) given your grammar/prose/coherance. Let's not even get into our relative intellectual capacities.

i'll take an e30 with the new motor please

all this weight makes me sick for bmw- i grew up dreaming about one day owning one of these cars and now that they are within reach they weigh 9 million lbs and are nothing like what i always wanted.

I've been noticing alot of the threads lately about the weight of the new <<insert model>> et cetera. Nowhere have I seen anyone bring up the e39 M5. Now, granted I have never driven one, let alone been a passenger in one (nor an e46 m3), thus I have no specific idea about the car's handling ability, etc. Hopefully I'll get a chance to see what they're like in an upcoming track event I'm going to.

In any case, I have searched the internet and have found, among a variety or sources, the weight of the e39 M5.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z1037/default.aspx

3792 pounds. That's right, somewhere in the area of 3800 pounds. Now I think we can compare the e92 m3 with the e39 m5, in general terms, given that we know alot about the m5 and have an idea about the e92. I wouldn't call the e39 m5 unsportscar-like considering the engine makes up for the additional weight of the car.

The M5, as everyone knows, has a v8, with around 400hp. So does the e92 M3 (according to the OP). Given the history of weight increases the m3 family has taken on over the years, we conclude that the e92 will weigh more. How much I don't know. Given the e39 performance specs, 0-60 in 4.7 secs, a 1/4 mile in 13.2 secs @107.4mph, I conclude that the e92 will probably have similar characteristics, assuming it packs on some weight over the (base/unoptioned?) weight of the e46 m3, ringing in at 3415 lbs.

Though I have never driven an m5, I have considered buying one, and in the process have done much research. The general opinion seems to be that the m5 with it's additional weight, is not as tossable as the e36 m3, and because of that, it has come down to whether one wants a newer look, v8, lux options, etc (m5), or a more tossable, older looking, track oriented car (e36 m3). These concepts are also applicable to comparing the e36 m3 to the e46 m3 (according to my research and discussion with members on this board). Weight and gocart-like handling characteristics seem to be the factors almost everyone is considering/deciding between those characteristics and the lux/added weight factor (including myself). Some people have no qualm about added weight, and appreciate the newer look, etc. Others, like Mr. M, want a lighter car, which takes advantage of the additional output of the engine over the e46 m3.

Now, like I said earlier, I haven't driven any of the above cars, so whether weight (in my opinion) makes a difference I don't know personally, but if the physical design elements of the e92 make up for any additional weight over the e46, such as having a wider track and suspension designed/tuned differently, so that the additional weight is not apparant, and at the same time, makes efficient use of the output of the engine, then great. It'll only be a problem to performance/value minded individuals if it weighs alot more than the e46 m3 while at the same time packing on only enough power to make it a little faster overall, and adding insult to injury, does not come in a base, optionless model (cloth/manual seats, no sunroof, no satnav, no heated seats, etc).

You can't read and comprehend at the same time, can you?

I said NO 4000 LB CAR IS A REAL SPORTS CAR. That in no way implies that the E92 will be 4,000 lbs. It means that any car near 4,000 lbs is not a pure sports car. I made no claims about anything weighing 3800 or 4000 lbs. Learn to read.

You sound like you're still in high school (and barely getting by) given your grammar/prose/coherance. Let's not even get into our relative intellectual capacities.

you're right, i dont use full proper use of the english language on here because i dont give a crap what people on here think...not trying to impress you with intellect, you're not worth it. and yes im barely getting by in highschool...im not the one driving a 318 barely getting by in school :rolleyes . and u were obviously implying the m3 would weigh that jackass or you wouldnt have even said it...if not than you really love to bring irrelevent crap into debate. I wouldnt debate about how fast 2 cars are and then bring in "well a 14 second car is not fast at all" if i wasnt talking about either of the 2 cars being debated...but apparently you would with the weight..so either A. admit you were assuming the e92 would weigh 3800-4000lbs and be a hypocrite for calling others out for assuming it would have 415hp...or B. admit you're an idiot and like to get off topic when debating and throw numbers around from other cars that are not even being discussed. frankly either way you lose so good day :redspot

you're right, i dont use full proper use of the english language on here because i dont give a crap what people on here think...not trying to impress you with intellect, you're not worth it. and yes im barely getting by in highschool...im not the one driving a 318 barely getting by in school :rolleyes .

I'm not trying to impress anyone either - the aptitude of the language we've been hearing/speaking since birth I'm demonstrating is what I consider a BASELINE. If I wanted to impress anyone, I'd go considerably above my current level, but you wouldn't be able to understand. Hell, you're having rouble correctly interpreting "NO 4000 LB CAR IS A REAL SPORTS CAR" as it is :rofl. You however, demonstrate a terribly poor ability to effectively communicate.

:rofl And you make fun of my 318 when you're in highschool driving an 02 SMG that your parents undoubtedly pay for. You have the attitude of a spoiled child and you will do nothing with yourself as a result of having everything been given to you. And I'd hardly call someone getting a bachelor's AND masters in 4.5 years at the top of their class at a top university "barely getting by." Your highest academic achievement will likely be junior college (if that), so please, spare us the rhetoric and STFU, kid.

and u were obviously implying the m3 would weigh that jackass or you wouldnt have even said it...

No, I wasn't, "jackass." I was making a general statement about new cars in general.

I admit you were assuming the e92 would weigh 3800-4000lbs and be a hypocrite for calling others out for assuming it would have 415hp...

I was NOT assuming the E92 would weigh 4,000 lbs and I don't at all think it will weigh 4,000 lbs. I HIGHLY doubt they will add 400 lbs to the already heavy 335. It is most likely that the new M3 will weigh the same as the 335 or a 100 lbs heavier. Traditionally M3's tend to be about 100-150 lbs heavier than their base coupes. My point was NEVER that the M3 would weigh 4,000 lbs, but that it would weigh more than the current M3 which is 3415. Something weighing more than 3415 lbs does NOT mean it will weigh 4,000. There's plenty of numbers in between. Of couse, you're not interested in that - you're interested in trolling the boards and whining about any negative comment about your beloved, overweight M3 :rolleyes

I'm not trying to impress anyone either - the aptitude of the language we've been hearing/speaking since birth I'm demonstrating is what I consider a BASELINE. If I wanted to impress anyone, I'd go considerably above my current level, but you wouldn't be able to understand. Hell, you're having rouble correctly interpreting "NO 4000 LB CAR IS A REAL SPORTS CAR" as it is :rofl. You however, demonstrate a terribly poor ability to effectively communicate.

:rofl And you make fun of my 318 when you're in highschool driving an 02 SMG that your parents undoubtedly pay for. You have the attitude of a spoiled child and you will do nothing with yourself as a result of having everything been given to you. And I'd hardly call someone getting a bachelor's AND masters in 4.5 years at the top of their class at a top university "barely getting by." Your highest academic achievement will likely be junior college (if that), so please, spare us the rhetoric and STFU, kid.



No, I wasn't, "jackass." I was making a general statement about new cars in general.



I was NOT assuming the E92 would weigh 4,000 lbs and I don't at all think it will weigh 4,000 lbs. I HIGHLY doubt they will add 400 lbs to the already heavy 335. It is most likely that the new M3 will weigh the same as the 335 or a 100 lbs heavier. Traditionally M3's tend to be about 100-150 lbs heavier than their base coupes. My point was NEVER that the M3 would weigh 4,000 lbs, but that it would weigh more than the current M3 which is 3415. Something weighing more than 3415 lbs does NOT mean it will weigh 4,000. There's plenty of numbers in between. Of couse, you're not interested in that - you're interested in trolling the boards and whining about any negative comment about your beloved, overweight M3 :rolleyes

LMMFAO..its funny how pissed you get. And your small brain cant even pick up on SARCASM. I'm not in highschool loser, and not only did i get my car on my own with no cosigner, i signed for my moms current car, bought her last which is now my grandmas, and signed for car before that. What else you got for me wonder boy?

and if i could be as bold to assume (you've done plenty of it so i dont feel bad) you have had plenty more handed to you than me. I have been 100% self reliant since i turned 18 and moved out. I would hardly imagine that if you are 22ish (basing this on the fact that you've been in school 4.5years) that you have paid for school, housing, car, everything on your own from a part time job while going to school...so id venture as far to say you shouldnt talk about mommy/daddy at all.

you're interested in trolling the boards and whining about any negative comment about your beloved, overweight M3 :rolleyes

since when did this become about my M3?!? i could careless what people think about it, have stated that before. You're the only idiot on this board that ive argued about it with..because only you could possibly think a 318 with some minor upgrades could beat it around a track. go back to eballin talking about buying 80k cars when you graduate :rolleyes id imagine the job you land is going to pay 7 figures, as thats the only way you could pay for one in cash without having to save for a longgg time. Even if they start you at 100k you couldnt pay for one in cash after a year, so i wouldnt get your hopes so high. you'll soon find out the real world outside of school is hardly what you planned for.

I would hardly imagine that if you are 22ish (basing this on the fact that you've been in school 4.5years) that you have paid for school, housing, car, everything on your own from a part time job while going to school...so id venture as far to say you shouldnt talk about mommy/daddy at all.

I'm 21 and I haven't been in school for 4.5 years. I have 4 quarters left. And yes, I have paid for *everything* since turning 18 and my parents high income has meant no scholarships. PM Dave1025BMW, who posted in this thread and ask him yourself. He knows me personally through work (yeah, I worked two jobs while doing undergrad). You can also PM gotbhp? who will tell you the same thing.

id imagine the job you land is going to pay 7 figures, as thats the only way you could pay for one in cash without having to save for a longgg time. Even if they start you at 100k you couldnt pay for one in cash after a year, so i wouldnt get your hopes so high. you'll soon find out the real world outside of school is hardly what you planned for.

A GT3 in cash will be no problem my first year - I already have a job offer. Thanks for your concern though.

Anyways, back to your original accusations:

I was NOT assuming the E92 would weigh 4,000 lbs and I don't at all think it will weigh 4,000 lbs. I HIGHLY doubt they will add 400 lbs to the already heavy 335. It is more likely that the new M3 will weigh the same as the 335 or a 100 lbs heavier. Traditionally M3's tend to be about 100-150 lbs heavier than their base coupes. My point was NEVER that the M3 would weigh 4,000 lbs, but that it would weigh more than the current M3 which is 3415. Something weighing more than 3415 lbs does NOT mean it will weigh 4,000.

comment removed

never mind......not even worth it....

Oh man, this got way too personal, and it's a shame that two people that seem to have a 3rd grade conversation about "I didn't say that... i said this" or "my toy can kick your toy's ass" have taken over this thread. Any mods around that can set some rules about 'let's stay in topic' ?? Just my 2 cents...

Amen to what Cervi said, you two are like kids in a pissing contest. Well congrads, you have both managed to look like brats, so stop it and let me read about BMWs in peace please.

And, as usual, most of you guys seem to be forgetting about the whole weight problem.. How many times have we read that the 335i engine is over 200 lbs lighter than whats going into the M? And how many times have we read that theres never been an M3 thats lighter than its 3 series counterparts, even when sharing similar engine configurations. IF they keep the M under 3600 lbs, then yes, it will be a 335 killer. But, if they let it grow to anywhere near 3800 lbs as is my fear, then the M will wind up being about .2 sec faster in the acceleration tests.. Thats all.

Finally, lets remember that the 335i from the factory makes about 350 hp and about 360 ft lbs (automobile magazine dynojet test). It wont take much of a weight penalty to eat up that kind of advantage very quickly.

Very well put*** ;)

Mr silence.. this isnt magic.. YOu cant just sit back and say there isnt any way they would make an M3 that would annihilate a 335.. Consider, wont you, what has been written on this here.. Also consider that the 335i makes about 50 more ft lbs than the new M3 will.. Thats got to turn your head at least a little ... Add to that the fact that the V8 in the M3 weighs at least 200 lbs more than the 335i engine, and you begin to wonder how theyre going to accomplish the weight savings that will be required to effect this annihilation you refer to.. Then, consider that every other M3 made has weighed 100-200 lbs more than the nearest Non M series counterpart with closest engine, and thats without having to consider the heavier V8 vs inline 6, and it makes it even more interesting...

If youre so sure its going to accomplish this annihilation, then you must believe its going to be lighter.. But with a 200+ lb heavier engine, and already a 50 ft lbs disadvantage, wheres the anihilation going to come from? Weight? Hp? Lets hope so. With 50 less ft lbs, but 60-70 more hp, for this annihilation to take place, its going to have to at least match the weight of the 335i, which is about 3600 lbs.. Any heavier than that, and while it might be a tenth or two better, Id hardly call that 'annihilation'! Im glad you have faith that bmw considers hi performance as important as you do for the M3.. But there are alot of people who feel bmw, like almost every other mfg has sold out, to a degree, to the factions pushing for ever larger, heavier, and cushier cars. Every M3 has been heavier, larger, and cushier than the one that came before. They can keep acceleration numbers down by using ever larger engines. Unfortunately, thats not a formula the M3 performance faithful like to follow. Weight is the simple killjoy to performance and handling..


This guys on a roll... :handclap

Ok im a newbie, now that is out of the way, some thoughts....

1) automobile magazine states 276whp/300wtq so about 324hp/353tq for 335i
2) Compression ratio of 335i = 10.2:1 (edmunds) and it is running 9psi with direct injection fule injection.
3) M3 v8 is widely considered by automotive press to be a 8 cyl version a M5 V10 5.0liter however everyone is speculating on horsepower because the audi makes 420 and they are theorizing the M3 will attempt more then 400 (which is what it would have if it were strictly 8 of the M5's 10 cylinders). But no one outside bmw knows. The V10 has 383lbft so if it is strictly 8 of the 10 cilinders the M3 would make 306lbft. Once again no one outside BMW knows. But we know it wil be atleast 400/306 because that is what it would be if it were just a loped off V10.
4) the prior M5 had a 4.9liter V8 which is completly different then the current V10 so likely has no bering on discussion.
5) Speculation: Given the unboost friendly compression ratio of the 335i and that it is already running 9psi through small turbos it is likely close to being maxed out UNLIKE the Sti and the Evo which have much lower compression ratios. Likely the besst way to add any power would be a water/alky injecton system but there is no telling how much power is left in the turbo's (but probably some because manufacturers always provide a little more saftey net then they need in case of a bad tank of gas.) All other alternatives including adding bigger turbos would require a drop in compression, the easyest but maybe not best way would be new head or larger gasket. Conclusion: the 335i is great but in the pursuit of great fule economy the high compression makes it very mod unfriendly. However some will be available via a tune and maybe decreased back pressure (bet surge will be an early tuning issue on these cars).
6) The 7 speed SMG will likely shift and accelerate quicker then the 6 speed auto everything being equal (but who know if launch control will be allowed in the states).
7) The V10 in the M5 is aluminum, it is speculation that a V8 version will weigh more then an I6 turbo. Remember conservation of weight is greater in V8's, its why a LS1 weighs the same as many 6cylinders and some iron 4's.
8) The M5 weighs about 4000lbs. The current M3 weighs 3400lbs, The E46 330ci weighs 3285, both acording to msn cars. The current 07 328i coupe weighs 3351lbs. Add 60 to 80 to all above for AT except SMG. The 335i weighs 3571lbs over 200 more then the 328i coupe. There is no reasion to conclude the M3 will weigh more then the 335i, it may weigh less based on historical weight gane.

Therefore in stock form the minimum 75hp gain of the M3 and likely more agressive gears should out weigh the maximum 47lb-ft loss. By how much is speculation, it willdepend on both actual weight, gear's, and actual HP and Tq.

I am more and more believing that this new engine is coming; or a revised version of its GTR V-8

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=2368

notice how it mentions 444 horses. I think this would be similar to what the new M3 will have

notice how it mentions 444 horses. I think this would be similar to what the new M3 will have
You must be kidding...remember the factory has to retune the motor for STREET car to run on 91 pump gas, be "drivable" with regard to low speed bumper to bumer driving and idle, and most importantly last 100,000 miles with great reliablilty and relatively low service requirements. The engine you're refer to on the GTR is a full blown race motor on race gas that only needs to last one or two races before being rebuilt or at least serviced.

...now, it may be "based" on that motor...which would still be a very nice thing* But there's no way its going to put out 121HP/liter like that race motor. At the most, 105HP/liter in my opinion is what we'd see. (for 420HP tops) Which again, would be very impressive in my book as long as they keep the weight down in that car.

I am thinking 415-420. That still is a crap load of HP.

I am thinking 415-420. That still is a crap load of HP.

I wouldnt say "crap load", concidering my Supra (there it goes again, I've always got to mention it) weighs a hundred lbs or two more than the E92 M3 SHOULD weigh with at least 300rwhp, and its *just* enough to satisfy me...but I'll be building it up to the most potential 93 Oct and GT35R can yield, so like maybe 500HP.

Meaning if I'm paying $50k+ on my car, it BETTER be faster than my $2600 car with $5800 in mods (I actually only have $300 in mods, but the rest of that will easily yield 500HP reliably)

I wouldnt say "crap load", concidering my Supra (there it goes again, I've always got to mention it) weighs a hundred lbs or two more than the E92 M3 SHOULD weigh with at least 300rwhp, and its *just* enough to satisfy me...but I'll be building it up to the most potential 93 Oct and GT35R can yield, so like maybe 500HP.

Meaning if I'm paying $50k+ on my car, it BETTER be faster than my $2600 car with $5800 in mods (I actually only have $300 in mods, but the rest of that will easily yield 500HP reliably)

thats retarded..you can buy a fox body mustang and put 1500 into it and run 12's all day long...by no means is your car or a fast old mustang comparable to the new m3 i wouldnt care if it was a 1000hp supra its still not comparable

that 50k car comes with free maintenance and is almost 20 years newer and would walk either of the above two mentioned cars on a track..straightline speed is not why you spend a lot of money on a car unless if all you have to do is proove yourself to a bunch of men..in which case buy a fox body mustang one of the cheapest cars to mod and they can run 10's like you wouldnt believe

Exactly. The 996TT X50 has 450HP and cost well over 100k brand new. Can't compare apples and oranges.

Exactly. The 996TT X50 has 450HP and cost well over 100k brand new. Can't compare apples and oranges.

man your m3 is clean! ever taken it to the track? It has to be good for mid 12's

The M3 IMHO will still be a better platform to start with compared to the 335i. Ya, you can put two larger turbos on there and double the boost, but that is only a fraction of the equation. There still has to be upgraded brakes, suspension, driveline etc.

Lets not forget that the turbos are part of the exhaust manifold... so just swapping out turbos for larger ones is not going to be easy.

You are going to have some problems with 12:1 compression. Assuming it will be the same as the m5.

man your m3 is clean! ever taken it to the track? It has to be good for mid 12's

Thanks. I try to take good care of it. Never have taken it to a track. None nearby.

Putting an Aftercooler in tomorrow. :redspot

I've yet to hear a compelling reason to believe the V8 will add 200lbs over the 335...

I remember the quote from BMW justifying turbos, but IMHO, that has nothing to do with the M... (different parts bin)

No idea how close the E46 M3 and 330i were, but I'd be surprised if the boys at M were to ever let their M3's weigh dramatically more than the car it's based upon.

I guess this is the first time we're adding cylinders, however, so that's got some worried. I have faith in the M group.

I love how many people "know" how much torque the new M3 will have and know it will be 50 ft lbs more than the 335 when you don't work for BMW and the engine specs have yet to be released :rolleyes

Considering the m5 has 500 hp and 383ftlbs of torque.

New m3 will have 415hp. I doubt it will have anymore then 310 ft/lbs of torque. I bet you will see it closer to 290-300. Or possibly 305 just to do that one better then 335i.

I am stating this since you have loss mass from the crankshaft, 1 liter in discplacement, and 2 cylinders. Those three factors can have a huge impact on torque.


EDIT: Found another link about m3 and pricing. It stated 418hp and 420nm. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=583755

420nm comes out to be 310ft/lbs. Scary how good I am.:rofl

Given my understanding of the various speculation, i can imagine the 335i/M3 thing being like the e30 325i/M3. That meant in the sense that, in the hands of an average driver, and in regular, around town driving the non-m is nearly as quick because of the forgiveness of extra torque lower in the rev-range, but in the hands of a skilled driver that knows how to really pull the most out of the cars, and in a situation where the engine can be kept high up in the powerband, the M will be significantly quicker. Of course, that's just me speculating about what other speculation may add up to, and thus it is probably pretty much invalid and worthless.

You must be kidding...remember the factory has to retune the motor for STREET car to run on 91 pump gas, be "drivable" with regard to low speed bumper to bumer driving and idle, and most importantly last 100,000 miles with great reliablilty and relatively low service requirements. The engine you're refer to on the GTR is a full blown race motor on race gas that only needs to last one or two races before being rebuilt or at least serviced.

...now, it may be "based" on that motor...which would still be a very nice thing* But there's no way its going to put out 121HP/liter like that race motor. At the most, 105HP/liter in my opinion is what we'd see. (for 420HP tops) Which again, would be very impressive in my book as long as they keep the weight down in that car.


Do you think that I actually believe they are going to drop that same engine in the new M. I only said that it could be a revision of that particular engine. Maybe de-tuned alittle because of the consumers that have to drive these cars. That particular engine produces 444....maybe a de-tuned version will offer alittle less. Knowing BMW, they are ahead of their time and wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to actually slap on a similar GTR engine into a production street M.

I was very excited about the 335 and was ready to buy one until I went out for the test drive.

Don't get me wrong the car is awesome and all but after test driving it I kept thinking in my head what i'd do to it as soon as Id get it.

the more and more I thought about it I was basically turning it into an m3.I thought the rear end and long gearing has to go(4k)the suspention is to soft(1500)I would chip it for about 410 crank hp (1200)void warrenty and basically not have an M

and I kept saying it dosnt have the throtle snap the m3 has now....If you own M cars dont drive this because you will keep asking yourself why BMW choseed to do so many things wrong with this car and then you will realise what an M3 is all about all over again.

edit---after my test drive I made my dicision to sell my e36m3 and get into a used e46 to hold me over.I cant spend 47k on this car...I found a sick M3 in Fl and Ill only spend about 15k after I sell my car.

then In 2-3 years Ill get into a nice e92

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=2368
That is a great article. Did anybody notice this:

"The big difference is torque: BMW's V-8 makes 354 pound-feet..." talking about the 4.0L V8 that IS a loped-off version of the BMW V10. I don't expect it to make 354 pound-feet in the new E92 M3, but I think it will be as much as 330 pound-feet. Also, the new E92 M3 engine is going to be mostly aluminum and magnesium. I honestly think that this new V8 in the E92 will have a lot more torque than just '4/5 of the M5's V10'. I think you guys need to compare this new V8 in the E92 to an LS1 engine and not compare it to a larger I6. An LS1 weighs less than the BMW I6; why can't the new E92 V8 weigh the same, or less, than the current S54B32?

I wouldnt say "crap load", concidering my Supra (there it goes again, I've always got to mention it) weighs a hundred lbs or two more than the E92 M3 SHOULD weigh with at least 300rwhp, and its *just* enough to satisfy me...but I'll be building it up to the most potential 93 Oct and GT35R can yield, so like maybe 500HP.

Meaning if I'm paying $50k+ on my car, it BETTER be faster than my $2600 car with $5800 in mods (I actually only have $300 in mods, but the rest of that will easily yield 500HP reliably)

I realize its not 100% appropriate, I am sorry I can't resist...

"you can make a piece of shit fast, but then all you have is a fast piece of shit" :angel

If I reply with a mature debate-oriented response, I'll end up writing a 200 word essay.

All I will respond with is that some people think the same way of your car

If I reply with a mature debate-oriented response, I'll end up writing a 200 word essay.

All I will respond with is that some people think the same way of your car

ok... lets move on. I admit I should not have gone there!

Dont take it personally. I didnt mean it to sound as harsh as it did.

Back on topic...

Okay, seriously let's stop speculating comparisons and personal annecdotes, and let's try to find out more details on any information leaked/dug-up on the new M3!! I honestly think they are going to design this engine to have a lot of low-end grunt compared to other V8s, and IMHO it will have mor torque (although maybe not as low in the rpm band) as the 335i, and of course much more power. :thumbup:

:) only thing is with comparable mod money...the 335 will soon blow the m3 out of the water...

then why would we have an m3....:devillook

I think you guys need to compare this new V8 in the E92 to an LS1 engine and not compare it to a larger I6. An LS1 weighs less than the BMW I6; why can't the new E92 V8 weigh the same, or less, than the current S54B32?

An LS1 is aluminum and has fewer moving parts. IIRC it's pushrods save 50 lbs over DOHC alone.

The M3 will likely have the following going for it:

1. a much RACIER NA motor, that pulls HARD all the way to a high redline and is very free-revving in nature.

2. an M diff with crazy rear end ratio that's built for max acceleration.

3. superior brakes, suspension, etc.

4. similar weight to the 335. BMW V8's do not weigh a whole lot. The 335 does not have a light magnesium motor (couldn't handle the boost).

5. M3 body. The 335 looks very bland/fem.

So the M3 will have a distinct accel advantage due to a higher redline and lower final drive, and of course, a better power/weight ratio, handling and looks. It will also likely sound cool as sheit. And come with a real SMG option.

The 335 is designed for the masses and will sell like hot cakes. Sure, some people will chip it for $450 and it will be damn near as fast as an M3 in a straight line. So what?

...Sure, some people will chip it for $450 and it will be damn near as fast as an M3 in a straight line. So what?What I'm afraid of is that for a little bit more, ($2-3K) it'll be decisively FASTER than the new M3's in the straight-line.

Decisively????:confused

What I'm afraid of is that for a little bit more, ($2-3K) it'll be decisively FASTER than the new M3's in the straight-line.


I think that is very likely to happen. However, those cars will either have voided warranties and reliability issues, or cost $10k+ modded via Dinan.

As the 335's get older (cheaper) and out of warranty, they will no doubt be modded-up for crazy street speed.

Hopefullly, the presence of the 335 will allow BMW to make the M3 a much more focused enthusiast car than in the past, since it no longer has to cater to the masses as the sole "performance 3 series".

Im gonna laugh my ass off when the new M3 is released and its 450/400 and weighs 3200lbs and everyones jaw hits the crapper.

The M3 will likely have the following going for it:

1. a much RACIER NA motor, that pulls HARD all the way to a high redline and is very free-revving in nature. And, consequently, much less torque.

2. an M diff with crazy rear end ratio that's built for max acceleration. Crazy rear end means crazy low top speed. it will be geared for very high top speed a la M5/6, and previous E46.

4. similar weight to the 335. BMW V8's do not weigh a whole lot. The 335 does not have a light magnesium motor (couldn't handle the boost). probably slightly heavier. BMW V8's weigh a ton compared to pretty much any other manufacturer's V8's.

5. M3 body. The 335 looks very bland/fem. The spyshots look just as fem IMO :dunno the only real tangible difference seems like wheels

So the M3 will have a distinct accel advantage due to a higher redline and lower final drive torque is what accelerates the car . . . high HP is nothing without a strong torque curve. turbo cars always have better torque curves.

.

Robert. Your conclusions about torque are right . . . and ultimately wrong.

Take the e46 M3 as an example. It's torque numbers are relatively low compared to its hp output. Its also a relatively heavy car. Certainly more so than an e36 M3. However, notwithstanding a similar (or perhaps worse) hp/lb ratio, it accelerates much faster than even a 321hp euro e36 M3. Why? Effective Torque AT THE REAR WHEELS - due to gearing.

The e46 M3 has a MUCH lower final drive ratio than the euro e36 M3. This, combined with a higher redline means that it gives up nothing in top speed, and still acclerates much quicker (4.7 vs. 5.5 to 60 mph).

This same approach will be taken with the e92 M3. The car will be geared WAY differently than the 335, and will get out of the hole WAY quicker (prolly a second quicker to 60mph).

Im gonna laugh my ass off when the new M3 is released and its 450/400 and weighs 3200lbs and everyones jaw hits the crapper.That must be some GOOD sh*t you're smokin'* :lol

What I'm afraid of is that for a little bit more, ($2-3K) it'll be decisively FASTER than the new M3's in the straight-line.

..and who really cares about the straight line? Not me. Personally I think it's about finding the most correct balance of all measurements.

..and who really cares about the straight line? Not me.Thats YOU. But if I'm spending *$65,000+* out the door for my new sportcar it BETTER have much stronger straight-line than its $15,000+ cheaper counter! And MANY people will agree. Yes, acceleration and top end aren't everything (i agree wholeheartly with that) but it IS very important to the seen *value* and *marketability* of a alleged "high performance sportsacar."

Thats YOU. But if I'm spending *$65,000+* out the door for my new sportcar it BETTER have much stronger straight-line than its $15,000+ cheaper counter! And MANY people will agree. Yes, acceleration and top end aren't everything (i agree wholeheartly with that) but it IS very important to the seen *value* and *marketability* of a alleged "high performance sportsacar."

Are you serious? Do you think everyone buying a F430 is concerned that for 40k less they could have a faster (0-60)car (Ford GT)? Or for that matter that they could have a Z06 that's just as fast (0-60) for 100k less?

Come on.

**edit... 65k????

What options would you put on the damn thing? All I would want is leather...everything else I would need is included in base which is speculated to be at 53k (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=583755).

it BETTER have much stronger straight-line than its $15,000+ cheaper counter! And MANY people will agree. Yes, acceleration and top end aren't everything (i agree wholeheartly with that) but it IS very important to the seen *value* and *marketability* of a alleged "high performance sportsacar."

Let's keep it real - the 335 is a tad slower than the e46 M3.

Just like the e36 325 was just a tad slower than the e30 M3 . . .

Just like the e46 330ci was just a tad slower than the e36 M3 . . .

Stock vs. stock, the e92 M3 will be significantly quicker than the 335 and will justify the price leap.

Figure 4.5 to 60 and the quarter in the high 12's.

bigger turbo's=more lag=straight-line american pos. Another huge difference is the lsd...which if is the same direction as the e46 m3 is going to be hydraulic-aka from f1=before ferrari :)..that can put 100% power to one wheel, there is no way i can see a conventional lsd having the same capabilities as the m3's diff. The suspension, will be completely redisigned, as i doubt stiffer springs make an m an M. The m3 will be the track car where-as the 335 a daily driver good for the straights, its already been said that you have to time power application on apex. Never drove 1 though, but i don't know where you guys got the engine being 200 lb's more...as yes the block will be larger-but u need reeeaaal lightweight materials on the internals to reach 8000+ rpm! Opposed to heavy cast units most probably used in the 335. Then you have to remember you got 2 turbo's (about 30 lb's a piece), oil lines, intercooler (or two!), more oil, larger oil pump/ fuel pump. Oh, that just reminded me that the v8 was used for its lower centre of gravity and being able 2 b mounted further back in the chassis...maybe dry-sump oil then-another weight saving feature on the engine. The new m3 WILL hit 100 in less then 4.5 seconds, and the quarter mile should be in the mid 12's if not low 12's. All i can pray for is a rear mounted tranny and i'll sell myself to 1000 very fat chicks for the car

That must be some GOOD sh*t you're smokin'* :lol

I know it wont. I just find it funny that theres really no rock solid evidence of the new M3 specs and everyone is prejudging it saying it wont have enough torque, itll be too heavy, for a few thousand $$$ the 335 is a better car. I would laugh my ass off if every magazine article was way off and BMW puts out a freakin sweet ass car that makes everyone go :eek: :eyecrazy :redspot :alright

That is a great article. Did anybody notice this:

"The big difference is torque: BMW's V-8 makes 354 pound-feet..." talking about the 4.0L V8 that IS a loped-off version of the BMW V10. I don't expect it to make 354 pound-feet in the new E92 M3, but I think it will be as much as 330 pound-feet. Also, the new E92 M3 engine is going to be mostly aluminum and magnesium. I honestly think that this new V8 in the E92 will have a lot more torque than just '4/5 of the M5's V10'. I think you guys need to compare this new V8 in the E92 to an LS1 engine and not compare it to a larger I6. An LS1 weighs less than the BMW I6; why can't the new E92 V8 weigh the same, or less, than the current S54B32?

DOHC heads weigh a shit load. You have 32 valves instead of 16, 4 cams insead of 1, longer timing chains, and so on.


Are you serious? Do you think everyone buying a F430 is concerned that for 40k less they could have a faster (0-60)car (Ford GT)? Or for that matter that they could have a Z06 that's just as fast (0-60) for 100k less?

Come on.

**edit... 65k????

What options would you put on the damn thing? All I would want is leather...everything else I would need is included in base which is speculated to be at 53k (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=583755).

Nope, cause the ferrari will bring more pussy then a ford gt would. LOL




No what price and numbers the m3 puts out. The overall sales will be affected abit from the creation of the 335i. Somepeople might think the gap between between 330 and m3 which is filled with 335i might be just fine for them. We will find out soon enough.

No matter what price and numbers the m3 puts out. The overall sales will be affected abit from the creation of the 335i. Somepeople might think the gap between between 330 and m3 which is filled with 335i might be just fine for them. We will find out soon enough.


I disagree, the M3 is a competitor of the 911, RS4, and now even the Baby Aston Martin. The 335 is a competitor of the IS350 and G35. They aren't even in the same class and never will be. Potential buyers are going to be looking for completely different things from both of them

Robert. Your conclusions about torque are right . . . and ultimately wrong.

Take the e46 M3 as an example. It's torque numbers are relatively low compared to its hp output. Its also a relatively heavy car. Certainly more so than an e36 M3. However, notwithstanding a similar (or perhaps worse) hp/lb ratio, it accelerates much faster than even a 321hp euro e36 M3. Why? Effective Torque AT THE REAR WHEELS - due to gearing.

No, torque, not gearing. The E46 M3 is actually a very torquey motor - for years (it may actually still be there, actually) it had the highest specific torque output of any NA production engine. The 321 HP motor had the same displacement, so overall (not just specific) torque output is higher in the S54.

Not only that, but we've been talking peak torque numbers. The S54 has higher peak torque, but more importantly, an even greater advantage over the rest of the rpm range, where the S52 just isn't as powerful. The S54's torque curve is way flatter and higher than the S52's. The difference between the E46 and E36 M3's accelerations are due primarily to torque output.

Mr. M is right-torque is the explosion-hp the acceleration of the engine-its very possible imo that the 335 will have simillar tq to the m3...if not more-but the fact of the matter is that the m3 will rev 1k rpm more. Tuners don't increase overall output-but tend to shift the powerband over the rev-range...90% of the time to the upper power band-sometimes they even show the overall increase in hp and tq and then the peak numbers...this makes a huuuge difference-maybe next thing for turner and dinan is to show spool up time when they swap the turbo's on the 335 :D

No, torque, not gearing. The E46 M3 is actually a very torquey motor - for years (it may actually still be there, actually) it had the highest specific torque output of any NA production engine. The 321 HP motor had the same displacement, so overall (not just specific) torque output is higher in the S54.

Not only that, but we've been talking peak torque numbers. The S54 has higher peak torque, but more importantly, an even greater advantage over the rest of the rpm range, where the S52 just isn't as powerful. The S54's torque curve is way flatter and higher than the S52's. The difference between the E46 and E36 M3's accelerations are due primarily to torque output.

Ah, well you missed the point. :rolleyes

Sure the e46 M3's S54 makes marginally more power and torque (333hp/262trq) than the euro e36 M3's S50B32 (321hp/258trq)(the S54 is basically just a slightly larger and higher-revving version of the S50B32 with a slight bump of the cr). But considering that the e46 is at least 200lb's heavier than the euro e36M3, the marginal power/trq. increase is NOT primarily responsible for the much improved acceleration from 0-60 of the e46 (4.7 vs. 5.5). By far the MOST IMPORTANT acceleration factor is the S54's 8k rpm redline coupled with the e46 M3's 3.64 rear-end ratio (vs. the e36's 3.23).

BMW will apply the same gearing technique to the high-revving e92 M3, and it will bolt to 60 MUCH quicker than the laziliy geared (for fuel economy) 3.08 rear-end of the 335, regardless of the cars' respective torque/weight ratios. BTW, the 335's 1-4 tranny gearing is also rather tall (again for fuel economy). Gearing is also why the e46 M3 (with MUCH less trq) is still quicker than the 335.

BTW, most of the info you posted re the S54 vs. S50B32 is wrong.

And BTW, the 335's engine weighs 419lbs.
The M6's V10 weighs 529lbs.

529lbs x .8 = 423.2lbs

So I would not expect the e92 M3's V8 to weigh much more than the 335's lump . . . and certainly not 200lbs more.

And BTW, the 335's engine weighs 419lbs.
The M6's V10 weighs 529lbs.

529lbs x .8 = 423.2lbsThat's very interesting** ...where did you get this information from!? Is there a link?

Ah, well you missed the point. :rolleyes

Sure the e46 M3's S54 makes marginally more power and torque (333hp/262trq) than the euro e36 M3's S50B32 (321hp/258trq)(the S54 is basically just a slightly larger and higher-revving version of the S50B32 with a slight bump of the cr).

I'm glad to see you're addressing peak numbers only, because cars only accelerate at their peak torque's RPM, not through the entire rev range. The superior low end torque of the S54 has nothing to do with 0-60 :rolleyes

I'm glad to see you're addressing peak numbers only, because cars only accelerate at their peak torque's RPM, not through the entire rev range. The superior low end torque of the S54 has nothing to do with 0-60 :rolleyes

Not sure why you think the S50B32's low and midrange trq. is so inferior to the S54. You are misinformed. The S50B32 trq. curve is fat, flat and broad just like an S54's. Both motors are double VANOS 3.2L I6's . . . not sure where you think BMW suddenly got a bunch of additional low-end grunt from in the S54, AND more top-end and revs to boot.:rolleyes

Do you realize just how silly you sound?

Why do you think the e46 M3 is STILL quicker than the e92 335, notwithstanding a roughly 85ft/lb torque deficit throughout the entire rev range (the 335 actually dyno's at roughly 340HP/350 trq.)? The 335 has loads more grunt and torque everywhere, but is still slower than an e46 M3. Why?

GEARING AND RPM MY BRUTHA.:eyecrazy

A torque defecit is easily overcome via ultra-high rpm power and proper gearing. This has been BMW Motorsport's approach since the e46 M3 and continues to be . . .

And BTW, the 335's engine weighs 419lbs.
The M6's V10 weighs 529lbs.

529lbs x .8 = 423.2lbs

So I would not expect the e92 M3's V8 to weigh much more than the 335's lump . . . and certainly not 200lbs more.

.8 * whatever will not work if you have a fully dressed motor.

You are reducing 20% of the block, internals, heads, and most importantly the timing chain, water pump and such which you are not going to loose any weight from that at all.


I would say 8 to possibly 12 percent at max would in weight reduction could be seen. 20 percent is way out there.

.8 * whatever will not work if you have a fully dressed motor.

You are reducing 20% of the block, internals, heads, and most importantly the timing chain, water pump and such which you are not going to loose any weight from that at all.


I would say 8 to possibly 12 percent at max would in weight reduction could be seen. 20 percent is way out there.


Folks were saying the motor alone would add 150-200lbs. My point was that simple math throws that claim out the window. The V10 only weighs 110lbs more, so we know a V8 based on the V10 will be fairly close in weight to the 335's motor.

Then you have people talking about the weight of SMG . . . the car will be available with a proper manual, too, so that is a non-issue.

Folks were saying the motor alone would add 150-200lbs. My point was that simple math throws that claim out the window. The V10 only weighs 110lbs more, so we know a V8 based on the V10 will be fairly close in weight to the 335's motor.

Then you have people talking about the weight of SMG . . . the car will be available with a proper manual, too, so that is a non-issue.

someone on here said the SMG weighed only 20lbs more than the 6mt for the e46m3...so the weight of the SMG is not an issue, unless if they were way off

+1

If you want a comparison the RS4 shares almost nothing at all with the existing S4. The M3 will be a totally different beast, and while some people won't be able to justify the extra $10k it will cost over the 335i, it will still be useless to compare the two. You can't race a E46M3 with an E46 330Ci, the same will hold true with the E92s.


I believe the E36 was the only chassis where you could actually get a fair comparison between the m-spec and its e series brothers.

The 328 was an underrated engine and an M3/A was about the same speed as a 328i 5 speed.

Suspensions could be directly swapped too. Why do you think they have some many danm regular E36's in racing class leagues.

All other 3 series generations there were significant different between M and non-M

F1 cars have shit for tq.

The 335i has tons of room for upgrade in mods, the warranty is a concern, but for those there's Dinan parts who's in the process of making mods for this car which will be huge gains.

Against the E46M3 it's a super crazy close speed match, i'm sorry but 0-60 in 0.3 seconds faster for $20k more is dumb, an lsd rear end out of the new m3 slapped into a 355i and you've got that killed (355i has a 3.06 rear end non-lsd).

Mid range around town power the 355i destroys the m3, I'd rather have a car that has more power during the 98% of the time when I'm not at WOT then to win when I'm driving at 9/10s of the limit.

The new m3 yeah will be 400hp, maxed out to the limit from the factory, so do you really wanna pay over $20k to get slightly better brakes / suspension? I'm sorry but if you think the brakes aren't sufficient on the 335i then you haven't driven it as I own one and trust me that sucker stops and stops consistently well. A 335i is in a different league then the 328i.

The 335i has tons of room for upgrade in mods, the warranty is a concern, but for those there's Dinan parts who's in the process of making mods for this car which will be huge gains.

Against the E46M3 it's a super crazy close speed match, i'm sorry but 0-60 in 0.3 seconds faster for $20k more is dumb, an lsd rear end out of the new m3 slapped into a 355i and you've got that killed (355i has a 3.06 rear end non-lsd).

Mid range around town power the 355i destroys the m3, I'd rather have a car that has more power during the 98% of the time when I'm not at WOT then to win when I'm driving at 9/10s of the limit.

The new m3 yeah will be 400hp, maxed out to the limit from the factory, so do you really wanna pay over $20k to get slightly better brakes / suspension? I'm sorry but if you think the brakes aren't sufficient on the 335i then you haven't driven it as I own one and trust me that sucker stops and stops consistently well. A 335i is in a different league then the 328i.

active autowerks will be able to get 400hp+ out of a 335i (insider info)

F1 cars have shit for tq.
They also rev to 20K

The new m3 yeah will be 400hp, maxed out to the limit from the factory

Since when has any production car come MAXED out from the factory?

Since when has any production car come MAXED out from the factory?

I dont know if you have any idea of how hard it is to make more power out of an NA engine when its already making over 100 hp/l

the next gen m3 engine will take 3k to get 15whp with na bolt on's maybe 25whp if you add cams and now your well into 5-7k in mods and basically lost your warrenty

we can say that this engine will be close to 90% maxed from the get go.

I dont know if you have any idea of how hard it is to make more power out of an NA engine when its already making over 100 hp/l

the next gen m3 engine will take 3k to get 15whp with na bolt on's maybe 25whp if you add cams and now your well into 5-7k in mods and basically lost your warrenty

we can say that this engine will be close to 90% maxed from the get go.

I'm not arguing that these are super high strung engines. I totally agree with your est. 90% maxed out. Just as you pointed out, there will be cams/software/exhaust/intake etc... that will provide more power, sure it is going to be at a premium price, but the engine will have potential, how much, we don't know those details yet....

Shit, I forget the tuner (video from the m5board), but they managed to get 50 more hp from the new M5. 10% increase ain't to bad.

I'm not arguing that these are super high strung engines. I totally agree with your est. 90% maxed out. Just as you pointed out, there will be cams/software/exhaust/intake etc... that will provide more power, sure it is going to be at a premium price, but the engine will have potential, how much, we don't know those details yet....

Shit, I forget the tuner (video from the m5board), but they managed to get 50 more hp from the new M5. 10% increase ain't to bad. And how much did their package cost and how extensive were the modifications? Now apply 80% (or more) of that price to what you would pay for your new E92 M3 to have an extra 40BHP and you're pretty much maxxed. (and out of warrenty)

5.0 liter V10 = 50 more HP is equal to 4.0 liter V8 = 40HP more HP ...for the same level of mods, being the E92 M3's V8 will be the SAME engine (minus 1 liter and 2 cylinders)

Since when has any production car come MAXED out from the factory?

Ford PowerStroke, even the new 6.4 coming out. I dont think I really need to say any more.

Also, define maxed out...all 7M Supras from the factory are going to blow a head gasket if they stay stock, and even quicker on turbo and modded ones.

My differential on all 89-93 Miatas....known to shear off a pinion tooth or two from lack of surface area to spread "torque" to. No warning signs; you can find a stock Miata with 70k where it'll happen or a turboed one with 120k and it not. Again, all faulty from the factory.

Back to the Supra (yeah I know I'm sure even you guys are tired of me talking about it, just like everywhere else I am on the internet) the car gets 100HP from an intake and full exhaust, need I say more? Power wise it isnt even close to being touched from the factory, but they all have a factory bug

why doesnt anyone bore out these engines? Im a mechanic newb so spare me

Also, define maxed out...

Ummm...meaning that the engine power is maxed out:confused

In other words, there would be no gains from modifications, any mod would only lose power. Yes, the point I am making is a bit anal, but it is to show that rarely, if ever, is an engine fully decked out straight from the factory. :cool

60K is a bit rich for my blood. I couldn't imagine spending that on a non-investment car.

It would be a capable track car, but who here in their right mind would take it there?

Ummm...meaning that the engine power is maxed out:confused

I thought so, but I also think people should concider mentioning common problems they are known for as well. Sorta unrelated I guess, but it makes it seem not so biased and close minded about a specific car

why doesnt anyone bore out these engines? Im a mechanic newb so spare me

Well you can only do that once...reading through all sorts of press material and BMW information, the engines can only be rebuilt once (rebored) and only up to like .020" or .040" I dont remember the number. Plus the 3 different materials used in most of the "N" series engines nowadays sorta makes it difficult and such

I don't think that'll happen. Magnesium still is too brittle to hold up to 8,000 RPM redline. Most likely it'll be built from the same material the M5/M6 V10 block, which is aluminum or aluminum with iron inserts I think.

sorry i know this is old, but the S85 V10 acctually has a magnesium alloy/silicon carbide composite block and aluminium alloy head

The MB C55 AMG is faster than the E46 M3. So BMW will prolly have to top that out. The C55 has a 5.5L V8, 362 hp/ 390 ft-lb at 3700lbs and to top it off it has a 5spd auto. So I would assume the E92 M3 to be at least equal to if not faster than the C55. Maybe even equal to or faster than the upcoming C63.
And for those saying its going luxury a mercedes is more luxury then a bimmer. Price they are equivalent. So power/handling will need to be better for the E92 M3.

This is from the 2004 Nurburgring Nordschleife Car Lap Time Database:

Mercedes C55 AMG ( 7/2004) 8:22
Mercedes C32 AMG ( 9/2001) 8:37
Mercedes Benz C43 AMG ( 3/1998) 8:51

BMW M3 CSL ( 8/2003) 7:50
BMW M3 ( 12/2000) 8:22
BMW M3 ( 3/1997) 8:35
BMW 335i 8:26 (added by me from research and it is a solid #)

Audi S4 Avant (11/2003) 8:29
Audi RS4 ( 10/2000) 8:25
Audi S4 ( 8/1998) 8:42

the definition for "maxed out" to me is a e46 m3. a car that can only gain power by going forced induction. no chip mods, exhaust or intakes can make a significant increase in power. thats maxed.

the definition for "maxed out" to me is a e46 m3. a car that can only gain power by going forced induction. no chip mods, exhaust or intakes can make a significant increase in power. thats maxed.

your also wrong. ive seen a 500hp S54 motor, normally aspirated

The M3 will have M limited slip differential, It'll have SMG-IV, It'll rev up to 9000rpm. And if that's not enough. You can always turbocharge it too. So it's gonna be bye bye 335i. BMW has explicitly stated that the E92 M3 will be a) their premium M model and will have the most new M technology in a long time, b) it'll be light and the fastest M production car, c) It'll follow the footsteps of the incredible M3 GTR race version. (Which was 500hp+ back in 2001 with a 4L V8)

Best regards,

Jussi