Hey guys,

I've searched and i'm not getting the track oriented support i need in the Tire section :P

The tire budget this year calls for a daily tire that will handle HPDEs. It doesnt have to be the fastest/stickiest ever, but i want to make sure it won't turn into greasy mush on the track. I just run intermediate level HPDEs mostly at VIR.

The old standbys seem to be Kumho MX and Toyo T1Rs.. Any other recommendations?

Thanks

I've seen and heard good things about the Azenis RT-615s. Supposed to hold up much better to heat than the older Azenis.

thats true and i actually have a set of those right now and have tracked them. They did great. But i guess i'm looking for something a little more durable. high 200s/300ish treadwear rating preferrably.

I guess since dailing driving and HPDEs arent competition, i'm willing to sacrifice some grip for durability.

I'm going to rcomps for autox and selling the Azenis which are about half gone.

You didn't mention what size(s) you're looking at using. This will make a difference as most of the higher performance tires can be had in 235/40/17 and/or 245/40/17 but some don't make a 225/40/17 (if you're running the staggered setup). If you are running staggered, you might want to consider switching to a square setup and run 245/40/17 all around.

The Kumho MX is a great tire, but it's been around for awhile now and has been eclipsed by the newer tires.

The Yokohama Advan Neova AD07 tested out extremely well on a 2006 BMW E90 325i Sedan:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/bs_re01r_c.jsp

Bridgestone's S-03 Pole Position has long been known as a great dual purpose street tire that has for many years done a great job in that role. A friend of mine has put in many track laps in his 94 Euro M3 and loves the tires. I can attest to the fact that he continually slides the car around, steering with both ends and the S-03s keep sticking.

Bridgestone has a new tire that replaces the S-03 and outperforms it, it's called the Potenza RE050A Pole Position: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/bs_potenza_re050a_pole.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=MP

Don't see how one could go wrong with them, but they'd require you going to a 245/40/17 setup or moving to 18s, but then you'd be going backward for the track in a very big way, so you really need to stay with 17s or roll your fenders.

Regards, Alan

i used toyo T1R's for 3 track sessions and still use them on the street now. Key is do about 4-6 lap sessions then cool then come off let them cool off and go again

I had great results w/ T1Rs on my old pig 350z. They work great in the rain as well. They were the spec rain tire in WC a few years ago.

Just saw your last post. Sorry got called away from the computer by a neighbour - some a**hole broke into my wife's car last night:mad and my neighbour found some of the stuff from inside it strewn in front of his yard.:mad

Anyway, for wear rating the RE050A Pole Position's is only 140 compared to the S-03's 220 so the S-03 may be a better choice but I don't think it comes in our sizes any more, just the S-02s if you can find them. I think the Potenza RE-01R does come in a 235/40/17 and a 245/40/17. But again no 225/40/17.


Sarkis, how do you like the T1Rs? I've got a set on my Volvo (245/40/17s) but haven't had any time lately to really try them out. I also typically don't drive it really hard as the M3 is much more fun for that.:) They do feel good at the 7-8/10ths I've run them so far.

Might try them out next weekend, as I'm instructing at a BMW Advanced Driving School and it might be interesting to take my student out in an AWD "Family" sedan and then in the M3. During our lunch break instructors are encouraged to take their students out in the instructor's car so that the student can get a better appreciation of how a car feels and reacts closer to the limit than an instructor would/should take a student's car.

Regards, Alan

The Hankook RS2 Z212 is another great alternative IMO, plus they're VERY cheap.

Two tires come to mind:

The Yokohoma ADVAN Neova AD07s. I currently have these on my M Coupe which I track often. I run them in a 235/255 setup. I've run them 5 days at the track and they are wearing great despite the low 180 treadwear rating.

The other option is the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3. Though I have never driven on these, I have heard a lot of good things. They are supposed to have especially good wet traction as well. They have a high-ish treadwear rating at 280.

-bj

As street tires that can handle DE's, I've had pretty good results wih Michelen PS2's and Goodyear F1's. And the Car & Driver high performance tire shoot-out rated them and the Advan's very highly. DE's are rough on tires, period. I got 10 track days and about 5000mi out of the PS2's. I've only run the F1's for six track days, since I've switched to R-comps for DE's, but the F1's seem to have held up better than the PS2's for that much track duty.

Dry & wet grip of the PS2's & F1's seems to be comparable. The F1's seem to still work a bit past the temps that my PS2's were getting greasy.

I'd second Jim's thinking on R-Compounds versus street tires for DEs.

An R-Compound is designed to work best at temperatures that are, typically, at the limit of street tires design parameters. Because of this it seems that most people find they get as many or more track miles out of R-Compounds as the do from a maximum performance street tire.

Typically, R-Compounds are sometimes even a little less expensive than the max performance tire in the same size.

You mentioned that you are going to R-Compounds for Solo II events. I'd be inclined to run them for both.

I've got two sets of Yokohama AO32R-S 245/40/17s mounted on rims. One set is down to about 2/32nds and is used as my dry setup. The other set are at about 4-5/32nds now and I use them for my "wet/cold" setup.

Most people don't take cold temperatures into consideration enough in Solo II unless they're running in a Regional or National event. We had a damp cold day in June where everyones Kumho 710s weren't gripping nearly as well as usual. I ran my "wet/cold" setup and my co-driver took FTD by almost 2 seconds!!! Typically, we'd be no more than +/- 0.500 seconds on FTD.

Regards, Alan

Hey guys,

I've searched and i'm not getting the track oriented support i need in the Tire section :P

The tire budget this year calls for a daily tire that will handle HPDEs. It doesnt have to be the fastest/stickiest ever, but i want to make sure it won't turn into greasy mush on the track. I just run intermediate level HPDEs mostly at VIR.

The old standbys seem to be Kumho MX and Toyo T1Rs.. Any other recommendations?

Thanks
I ran the Kumho MXs for two years before switching to Toyo RA1s. Good life, good price, and it took 2 years before I had an instructor tell me they were now the limiting factor in improving my lap times.

i also recommend the Bridgestone RE050A tires that Alan has suggested. I bought them in April, have put 8 or 9 hard track days on them, and they still have 50% tread left. a local BMW club racer who rode with me once was amazed at how sticky they were.

i have them in 235/40/17. will be moving up to R-comps next year, but try these out as good street tires.

Hey guys,

I've searched and i'm not getting the track oriented support i need in the Tire section :P

The tire budget this year calls for a daily tire that will handle HPDEs. It doesnt have to be the fastest/stickiest ever, but i want to make sure it won't turn into greasy mush on the track. I just run intermediate level HPDEs mostly at VIR.

The old standbys seem to be Kumho MX and Toyo T1Rs.. Any other recommendations?

Thanks

I've chunked T1Rs to pieces in 5 track hours. Kuhmo MXs are the best street/track tires I've used yet.

Are Azenis RT-615s really up to the task of 20 minute track sessions? Obviously they're not ideal, but can they handle it?

I'm thinking about getting a set when my current street tires wear out. Since I'm now running in a Street Touring class for Solo, they would allow me to avoid hauling the shaved-and-sticky set of tires to regional events but still be competitive enough to have fun. They're cheap enough that I don't care if my alignment chews them up prematurely. And if they can stand up to a typical DE session, they would allow me to do a couple of those during the year.

wow, thanks for all the input thus far. i shoulda posted here sooner :P

as for size, 245/40/17 all around. i'm running 8.5" DSII front and rear.

^I ran the RT615s pretty hard for 25min sessions and they never let up. It was cooler outside though.. maybe '70s ambient. I really like them.. really linear and smooth when they broke away, gripped really well. I can't speak for how they hold up to higher temps though.

I've also run GoodYear Eagle F1 DSG03s on the track and they did ok. Chunked a bit and rolled over a bit w/ their really soft sidewalls. AMAZING tire in the rain though

Hrmm i'm interested in the Kumho MX vs Toyo T1R debate.. i'd kinda like to keep it on the cheaper side.. <$130ish each. The MX will probably fine. i'm not the fastest and i'm not competeing. I just need somethign that ill pass state inspection in 20 days, last two years hopefully, and be safe on the track.

I'd second Jim's thinking on R-Compounds versus street tires for DEs.

An R-Compound is designed to work best at temperatures that are, typically, at the limit of street tires design parameters. Because of this it seems that most people find they get as many or more track miles out of R-Compounds as the do from a maximum performance street tire.

Actually I was trying to compare the PS2's and F1's. But you bring up a good point w/respect to the wear rate on R-comps vs street tires. I've only run a couple of weekends on a used set of Vicroracers, but I have noticed that they are wearing at a much lower rate then the PS2's or F1's did. Part of that is probably due to their higher temperature tolerance, even though they are a much softer compound with a very low treadwear index.

We all know that R-comps aren't a good idea until the driver's skill set has reached the point that the tires are becoming the limiting factor. And that also probably plays into greater wear rates on street tires. Perhaps the better wear on R-comps (by the time you are ready for them) is partly a matter of driving smarter rather than harder.

It can be a bit of a hassle to get a set of R-comps to the track if you drive to a DE (I fill where the rear seat should be with a set), but once you've reached the point where you are ready for R-comps it is well worth the effort. If I couldn't carry them in the car I'd get a Northern Tool+Equipment mini-trailer to carry them. Since I use F1's as the daily driver tire, I can switch to them if it turns out to be a wet weekend (and they work really well in the wet).

i also recommend the Bridgestone RE050A tires that Alan has suggested. I bought them in April, have put 8 or 9 hard track days on them, and they still have 50% tread left. a local BMW club racer who rode with me once was amazed at how sticky they were.

i have them in 235/40/17. will be moving up to R-comps next year, but try these out as good street tires.

What did you find the optimum hot pressures were in the RE050s? I ran them at the track last weekend and they were getting greasy after ~15 minutes and weren't gripping that well in the first place.

I was running them at 40 psi and I think I will try ~35-36 next time.

exactly. the times i felt they got greasy were with hot temps around 38-40 psi. for some reason, they feel much better at about 35-36 front and 33-34 rear. this is with about -2.0 to -2.5 degrees front camber and about -1.5 in the rear.

they feel very slippery in the wet if you don't have the pressures right. i slid right off the track with very little throttle (in my 325!) with the pressures up around 35-36. of course there are other factors, like softening the shocks, that would have helped.

I got great performance with Bridgestone S03s before I switched to r-comps. More than 25K miles including several hard track days.

Great tires.

Jay

i decided to go w/ the goold ol Kumho MXs. its the only tire that i got consistently good feedback on and its cheap to boot

You'll likely be very happy with them. Certainly, you'll get plenty of good miles/$$$.

As you mentioned in your most recent post, ultimate grip isn't a primary object compared to cost and being a good dual purpose tire. The MX fits that bill well. Enjoy.

Regards, Alan

I think the MX is a descent rain tire and a good street tire (especially considering the price), but I was less than happy with them on track. They didn't chunk, but certainly wore quickly w/my driving.

I would suggest using R comps for track events as well. They'll last longer, and give better steering input also (stiffer sidewalls). Yes you'll be going a lot faster with them, but it's a rather significant upgrade to any track car. If you're a consistent driver, I don't think you'll find most of them to be as unpredictable as some people suggest.
Ahmet

i've used yoko avs sport, MX, and PS2's. i did not like the MX because they would overheat and feel greasy very early into a session. avs sport and ps2 handle the heat much better. i'm on ps2's now i really like them. done 2 weekends on them and they still stick great. if they feel anywhere near the same after a few more weekends, i'm getting another set when they are done.
the experience with these tires has been within the last two years as and advanced student.

They did great for my intermediate hpde purposes at VIR a couple weeks ago. As long as i kept bleeding off pressure as they got hot, they maintained just fine. The wear was even and no chunking or ugliness.

it was high '70s weather though, so we'll see sometime next year maybe when it gets hot again.

Don't know if they are the size you are looking for or not, but I just got a set of Bridgestone S-03's 235-40-17 from Tire Rack. They are having a close out deal. $94 each. Can't beat that deal.

I recently did a weekend DE event on Falken Azensis RT-615 tires. This is my first set, and I know these tires have a reputation for overheating fast and becoming greasy. I've also read that changes were made in the current generation to address that issue. Anyway, I had no problems at all, and was very pleased with them. I had about 4K street miles on them, and they should be good for at least two more events. I took those wheels/tires off the car, and will save them for track use. For a street tire, very sticky, and good stiff sidewalls.

kumho mx

I've had my 235/40-17 RE050As for a year with 10,500 miles. I got three track schools, 3 autocrosses, and many weekends of spirited twisty road runs. I rotated the spare into service, and the four that are good have 4/32nds tread left. After this weekend's PCA DE at Putnam Park, I'll probably need a new set of tires in the 235/40-17 size (I run 8.5 wide M Double Spoke II Style 22s fr/rr/spare).

I'm considering either:

1. Another set of RE050As

2. Michelin Pilot Sport 2s

3. Advan AD07 Neovas

I'm a PCA/BMW CCA instructor (5 years of experience, 10 years total DE experience).

I've run R compounds before on my old FD Rx7 (V700s, Hoosier R3S03s, Yoko A032R, etc), and am getting too old and lazy to swap tires (eventhough the M3 can probably carry a set of 4 R-comps). I've gotten good enough to keep up with less skilled drivers with R comps, so I'm not so concerned with ultimate stick (I'm not "racing for money"--as an old racing buddy put it).

I like a smooth quiet road tire (which the RE050A is in spades) with stiff sidewalls for steering/handling response, and enough stick and durability to do DEs wet/dry. The RE050As handled this purpose nicely, but did chunk some at 8 to 9/32nds tread.

I have stock suspension and alignment settings--no intention of getting camber plates at the moment, or playing with shim bolts/washers--the car spends 90% of its time on public roads.

Any suggestions on the three I'm considering? I'm leaning heavily toward the Advan AD07s; I've read great reviews on this tire's performance, but am unsure about its road manners.i also recommend the Bridgestone RE050A tires that Alan has suggested. I bought them in April, have put 8 or 9 hard track days on them, and they still have 50% tread left. a local BMW club racer who rode with me once was amazed at how sticky they were.

i have them in 235/40/17. will be moving up to R-comps next year, but try these out as good street tires.

I presume you're referring to the RE050A Pole Position. If so then without having experience with AD07s, I'd think they'd be pretty closely matched, consider giving the edge to the AD07s. Again, I don't have experience with them so this is pure speculation.

The current issue of Grassroots Motorsports Magazine has an article on several great street/track tires. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, but IIRC, it has Yoko/Michelin/Bridgestone/??? compared. If someone has it handy perhaps they could chime in.

I, like you, am getting to the point that driving to the track for DE weekends and not having to change tires is becoming more and more attractive.

For last September's local BMW Advanced Driving School I was in the unfortunate position of having the M3 laid up with a dead engine (broke 3 valves and holed 1 piston:eek: :( :bluecry1 :banghead: :pissed ). I went anyway as I had a student and decided to put some good tires on my Volvo S60 AWD to see how it ran during the instructors track sessions.:) (not a great track car:) , but better than I expected)

I put on a set of Toyo T1Rs 245/40/17 and was very impressed with there grip and phenomenal resistance to overheating. My student's E30 M3 wasn't ready for the school so I offered the use of the Volvo so they wouldn't miss out on the track time / learning experience. I ended up running the car in all Green Group sessions (Beginner), some Red Group sessions (Advanced, couldn't help myself:D ) and the Black Group sessions (Instructors). The T1Rs didn't wimp out at all and that's with a 3,700 lb car! So, I'd have to suggest that you also give them a look. I was able to pass several E46 325s and that's with a car that doesn't have the ability to defeat it's traction/stability control:banghead: . I'd be right on someones tail going into the two slowest turns on the track only to have them pull 4-8 lengths on me coming out because the damn PCM was pulling all the timing/fuel out and it was just falling flat on it's face.:(

Have you given any thought to putting a larger front sway bar on your car? Some will disagree but my experience is that it will reduce your understeer significantly and therefore give your street tires a much better chance at running with the R-Compounds and will also increase tread life. I'm running Racing Dynamics adjustable bars front and rear with the fronts set to full-stiff and the rears adjusted to full-soft/medium depending on the track/weather conditions. The inside front tire lifts 3-6 inches off the ground in right hand turns. :cool I don't have any pictures yet of it going into Turn 7 (~100 mph) but here is one from a slower turn at a Solo II last year. (yes we do hold some of them at a local Oval Track)
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2078000-2078999/2078238_87_full.jpg
Conditions had changed here and the car should have had a little more rear bar, but this photo has been shown to a friend who does data aqusition, etc., on one of the Speed TV World Challange BMW teams and he feels the suspension is just about right.

Regards, Alan

Alan, thanks for the comments. My tires are the RE050A nonPole Positions. The 235/40-17 size is not available in the Pole Position version. I've read that stiffening one end of the car will induce that end to slide first at the limit--so if one installs a larger front sway bar, that end will slide first, implying increased understeer. I like neutral with power oversteer on demand to drift the tail out slightly--thus the 8.5 wide fr/rr; 235/40-17 square setup (plus spare).

I'm giving the Advans serious thought. The only contention is their directionality. I need to be able to place the spare at any wheel position, and directional tires won't allow that unless you dismount and flip the tire on the wheel.

The Pilot Sport 2s are also high on my list.

The T1-Rs are good for the price. They won't chunk if you get ~1k street miles on them before you hit the track. Not a ton of grip, but not bad and they stand up to the abuse quite well. At ~$120/tire, it's tough to beat.

-tammer

...I've read that stiffening one end of the car will induce that end to slide first at the limit--so if one installs a larger front sway bar, that end will slide first, implying increased understeer...That is the "Rule-of-Thumb", however, like all of these there are the exceptions to the rule and the E36/E46 is one of those exceptions. The reason for this is the front-end suspension geometry on our cars and how it responds to both turn-in and compression. BMW "designed" more under steer in the 1996+ M3s than the 1995s to reduce the likelihood of law suits from people finding themselves going off the road due to "power-on oversteer".

I think the 3 best and least expensive ways to improve E36/E46 handling (making it more neutral for the track, while allowing "driver induced" oversteer, but not to the point of making things difficult on the street) are to:

1 - Run a "square" setup, like yours.
2 - Install a larger front sway bar.
3 - Install the 1995 M3 offset lower control arm bushings
...I like neutral with power oversteer on demand to drift the tail out slightly--thus the 8.5 wide fr/rr; 235/40-17 square setup (plus spare)...I agree completely, and it can get even better.

On our M3s the last 2 items on my list above reduce the lose of camber and increase in toe-in that occurs during the compression of the front suspension at turn-in. Have a look at the picture of my car in the last post to see how little the outside front is compressed - I'm just running Eibach Pro-Kit springs and Koni SAs. It's the larger front sway bar that's really stiffened up that front in the turns (while leaving it relatively soft on the straights), and it's very neutral.

I've had several road racers (open-wheeled and closed) and several BMW Instructors try my car on the track and they've all commented on how neutral and "toss-able" the setup is. This includes the 2002 Canadian Solo II B/SP National Champion (in an E36 M3) and a multiple podium winner at Topeka (US National Solo II).

When Grassroots Motorsport Magazine tested my car at the Ocala Gran Prix track it beat a Z06 by 2 seconds 38:xx to a 40:xx (the Z06 is at a real disadvantage on a small tight course) and almost tied a Lotus Elise:buttrock (both ran 38:xx - the Elise rules on a small tight course).

Per Schroeder, GRM's Technical Director, commented that it would have done even better with a larger front bar - I had one installed before I left Florida, and it works for me.

There are those that feel one should go about fixing the E36/E46 under steer by other means but mine is living proof that what I've outlined above works very well.

Regards, Alan

I'm giving the Advans serious thought. The only contention is their directionality. I need to be able to place the spare at any wheel position, and directional tires won't allow that unless you dismount and flip the tire on the wheel.

Stop thinking about it and pull the trigger. The ADVANs are an amazing street tire. They are almost as sticky as the RA1s I run, now.

Directionality does cause issue with rotation, but not on a dry or damp track (avoid puddles, though). You can run the pattern backwards with no loss of grip. The only thing you loose is the ability to channel water away from the tires. I did this with my front ADVANs to even out the wear left to right.

-bj

Any thoughts on the Michelin Pilot Sport 2s vs Advan AD07s? The PS2s are asymmetrical but nondirectional.Stop thinking about it and pull the trigger. The ADVANs are an amazing street tire. They are almost as sticky as the RA1s I run, now.

Directionality does cause issue with rotation, but not on a dry or damp track (avoid puddles, though). You can run the pattern backwards with no loss of grip. The only thing you loose is the ability to channel water away from the tires. I did this with my front ADVANs to even out the wear left to right.

-bj

Any thoughts on the Michelin Pilot Sport 2s vs Advan AD07s? The PS2s are asymmetrical but nondirectional.

PS2's are good, but still not as sticky as the Advans.

Any thoughts on the Michelin Pilot Sport 2s vs Advan AD07s? The PS2s are asymmetrical but nondirectional.

The PS2s are a solid performer. I've never had them on the track, but loved them on my 325i. I found them to work well in the rain, too. They still aren't quite up to the same level of grip as the AD07s, though.

If your willing to sacrifice grip for convince, then I'd say the PS2s are a good choice. If max grip is what you want, then go for the ADVANs.

-bj

Just checked, it is the AD07 that GRM has tested in the current (May 07) issue. The specs in the article are good but the writeup is even better and should be read. The AD07s came within 4/1000th of a second off the top autocross run of the day put down by the Falken RT615s which are the top autocross street tire available but can't compete with the AD07 in the wet or on the street and defintiely not on the track.

The tests were all using 235/40/17s, which is nice because one can't always directly correlate results from a tire test where there is a significant difference in the size tested and the size you're going to be using.

Regards, Alan

kumho mx
word.

Just ordered a set of Advan AD07s from Tire Rack (through BFC's Jim@TireRack). A set of five will arrive Friday at Vaughn Motorwerks (http://www.vaughnmotorwerks.com/ Zionsville IN). I will be lapping on Friday at Putnam Park with my current set of RE050As. When Rick Vaughn calls me to announce that my tires have arrived. I'll cut my instructor lapping short, and have them mounted up for the PCA DE this weekend. I'll have back-to-back comparisons between 4/32nds worn RE050As and new Advan AD07 Neovas (235/40-17) track performance. Thanks for the recommendations. I hope the AD07 road manners are at least close to the RE050As smooth quiet ride?! Just checked, it is the AD07 that GRM has tested in the current (May 07) issue. The specs in the article are good but the writeup is even better and should be read. The AD07s came within 4/1000th of a second off the top autocross run of the day put down by the Falken RT615s which are the top autocross street tire available but can't compete with the AD07 in the wet or on the street and defintiely not on the track.

The tests were all using 235/40/17s, which is nice because one can't always directly correlate results from a tire test where there is a significant difference in the size tested and the size you're going to be using.

Regards, Alan

The ADVANs will amaze you!

Were you at the Hoosier club event last week end at Putnam? I didn't make it this year, but my friend Rob did the photos for the event: http://www.photomotiononline.com He said Saturday was just miserable.

-bj

No, and thank goodness. The weather's supposed to be fabulous this weekend. I'm looking forward to driving. It'll be my season opener. Thanks for the hearty recommendation on these tires.

Great photos!

Here's the CIR PCA event participant roster.

I'm on the instructor list, Manny Lozano, 1997 BMW M3/4-door, Indianapolis IN.

http://www.cirpca.org/Events/Roster.aspx?68
The ADVANs will amaze you!

Were you at the Hoosier club event last week end at Putnam? I didn't make it this year, but my friend Rob did the photos for the event: http://www.photomotiononline.com He said Saturday was just miserable.

-bj

PS2 - Best tire I have found for "dual purpose". Good in the rain, sticky in the dry. VERY predictable

Sumitumo HTR Z2(Is that their highest?) - Decent. Gets Greasy though rather quickly

PS1 - Simlar to the PS2 just limits are not as high

Kumho MX - Have these ready to go for this season on the track

ES100 - Have these ready to go for this season on the track

Conti's - They all suck

Dunlop - They all are equally as bad

S03 - Worst tire I have ever used. Garbage. May have even been worse than the Pilot Sport A/S

Hankook RS2 - Only hear GREAT things about this tire. Rain is good. Dry is good. No experience yet.

RT-615 - This is the weird treaded tire? Only hear amazing things about this tire.

Both the RT-615 and Rs2 are not really dual purpose as on the street I don't see them lasting very long.

I used to be the assistant manager at a Costco Tire center in Illinois while I went to school. Was a "rich" area so people would get 1 flat and replace all 4. I stockpiled tires. Got to test alot of them on the track :) Above are my findings.

Just ordered a set of Advan AD07s...I'll cut my instructor lapping short, and have them mounted up for the PCA DE this weekend. I'll have back-to-back comparisons between 4/32nds worn RE050As and new Advan AD07 Neovas (235/40-17) track performance. Thanks for the recommendations. I hope the AD07 road manners are at least close to the RE050As smooth quiet ride?!Remember to be very gentle on your new tires.

I know it won't do any good to suggest this, cause we're all just big kids and want to play with new toys the minute we get them (well I am at least), but you should consider not putting the AD07s on until after the weekend. That way you'll get the most wear out of your RE050As and you'll have some street time on the AD07s before the next track session.

Your back-to-back testing won't help much for two reasons:

1 - All new tires have the remnants of their releasing agents that need to be worn off before they grip well. Toyo T1Rs take between 500-1,000 miles to develope their best grip, most others between 250-500 miles.

2 - The new tires being at full tread depth will generate significant heat when pushed. Especially when brand new if they've not been heat cycled.

These two factors will make the AD07s seem like a very poor substitute if compared to any great tire that's at 4/32nds. Give them 500-1,000 miles and you'd get a much better picture and run less risk of chunking or blistering your nice new tires. Anyway, enjoy.

Regards, Alan

Alan, this is good advice. I'll see how this weekend goes with my current tires. Hopefully I won't cord one of the RE050A "stones" during my lapping session. At least I know that I have my new Advan tires waiting for me when the time comes to replace the old stones :) Remember to be very gentle on your new tires.

I know it won't do any good to suggest this, cause we're all just big kids and want to play with new toys the minute we get them (well I am at least), but you should consider not putting the AD07s on until after the weekend. That way you'll get the most wear out of your RE050As and you'll have some street time on the AD07s before the next track session.

Your back-to-back testing won't help much for two reasons:

1 - All new tires have the remnants of their releasing agents that need to be worn off before they grip well. Toyo T1Rs take between 500-1,000 miles to develope their best grip, most others between 250-500 miles.

2 - The new tires being at full tread depth will generate significant heat when pushed. Especially when brand new if they've not been heat cycled.

These two factors will make the AD07s seem like a very poor substitute if compared to any great tire that's at 4/32nds. Give them 500-1,000 miles and you'd get a much better picture and run less risk of chunking or blistering your nice new tires. Anyway, enjoy.

Regards, Alanhttp://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9307508&postcount=70

Follow up to this thread. I wrote several reviews on the Bridgestone RE050A in 235/40-17 on Tire Rack's website. Here's the final review. This is my last review of the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A in 235/40-17 mounted on 8.5 x 17 fr/rr/spare for 1997 E36 M3 sedan, stock suspension and alignment. I ordered a set of Advan Neova AD07s, and decided to burn up the RE050As' last few 32nds of available tread depth at a PCA driver education at Putnam Park Fri/Sat/Sun, 20/21/22 Apr 2007. Temps were in the 70s, sunny, and dry all weekend. Traction was outstanding in the morning sessions, and grip stayed until near the end of each 25-minute session. Grip in the afternoon fell off toward the middle of the session as track temps rose. Cold tire pressures were 35 psi. Tire temps ranged from 115F to 149F after each track session. The LF tire gets hammered at Putnam, and it corded out on Saturday after my last session. I replaced it with the spare, and got through Sunday with the remaining four. With FIVE RE050As I drove 11377 miles, 13 months/21 days, 4-1/2 PCA DE weekends, 3 autocrosses, and spirited weekend tours. My ownership experience has been excellent. The RE050A's strengths are steering response, dry traction, and smoothness/quietness. Its weakness is hydroplaning at 5/32nds tread. I would have ordered another set of RE050As, but chose Advan Neova AD07s in 235/40-17 because of my track-driving hobby; it's no longer necessary to punish max performance road tires at DE track events now that dual-purpose Road/DE tires like the Neovas and RE01Rs are available. I had the Advan Neovas mounted/road-forced balanced at Vaughn Motorwerks (Zionsville IN http://www.vaughnmotorwerks.com/) and found that three of my wheels are out of round, so the low frequency vibration I previously criticized the RE050A's for was due to the damaged wheels--NOT the tires. I plan on new wheels with the next tire order (this time next year--probably LOL). I have the Neovas mounted now. After only 40 miles, I can already tell, these have a MUCH HIGHER potential than the old RE050A tires. Ride quality is darned close to the RE050A--so far I'm happy with the purchase. Thanks for the recommendation to go with the Advans!

I corded out my left front tire on my M5 and need some new tires before a DE at Brainerd International Raceway next month.

I'm torn between the Michelin PS2 and the Toyo RA1. After reading this article I would seriously consider the ADVAN Neova except I can't seem to find it in the right sizes (245/40-18, 275/35-18).

My decision will depend on the answer to these questions:
1.) Are the RA1's completely worthless in a daily driving environment? (ie. rain, crappy streets)

2.) How many miles can I expect out of the RA1's with 2 DE and a couple HPDE schools a year? Looking like 2x 70MPH-max schools and 2x 155MPH max events per year.

3.) Are the RA1's a waste for a mostly daily-driven vehicle?

I'm looking at the RA1's because I want to try out something new. However, if it is a complete waste to get the RA1's (getting less than 2 summers out of them is considered wasteful) or they are dangerous in non-track situations (rain, uneven pavement, etc.) then I will go with the tried and true PS2's.

Thanks.

I thought about RA-1s also, but I didn't want to make the compromise on the public roads. Tire noise and wet grip are also important, since my car spends 90% of its time on public roads. I also gave PS2s serious thought, but didn't want to chew up such nice road tires with 5 track weekends.

I checked Tire Rack's website. They show 235/40-18 and 265/35-18 Advan Neovas and Bridgestone RE01Rs available. These sizes are a slight downsize from original equipment M5, and the rolling diameters are slightly shorter (good for acceleration).

Personally, I'd choosed one of the above dual purpose tires--particularly the Neova--it has a very wide tread width relative to section width compared with RE01R--when measured on the same spec rim widths.

With a 235/40-17 mounted on my 8.5-wide stock Style 22 IIs the tire looks more like a 245/40-17 because of its square shoulder.

Give the Neovas a shot. You'll like them (as I do!)I corded out my left front tire on my M5 and need some new tires before a DE at Brainerd International Raceway next month.

I'm torn between the Michelin PS2 and the Toyo RA1. After reading this article I would seriously consider the ADVAN Neova except I can't seem to find it in the right sizes (245/40-18, 275/35-18).

My decision will depend on the answer to these questions:
1.) Are the RA1's completely worthless in a daily driving environment? (ie. rain, crappy streets)

2.) How many miles can I expect out of the RA1's with 2 DE and a couple HPDE schools a year? Looking like 2x 70MPH-max schools and 2x 155MPH max events per year.

3.) Are the RA1's a waste for a mostly daily-driven vehicle?

I'm looking at the RA1's because I want to try out something new. However, if it is a complete waste to get the RA1's (getting less than 2 summers out of them is considered wasteful) or they are dangerous in non-track situations (rain, uneven pavement, etc.) then I will go with the tried and true PS2's.

Thanks.

Thanks for the input. I know that Evo drivers love the Advans and claim that they're a bit wider than advertised. I'll give Tire Rack a call this morning. Thanks again.

No problem. Don't forget to order metal valve stems for your M5! You might consider ordering through BimmerForum's Tire Rack site here http://www.tirerack.com/affiliates/live/index.jsp?AFFCODE=EN3

Good luck! Thanks for the input. I know that Evo drivers love the Advans and claim that they're a bit wider than advertised. I'll give Tire Rack a call this morning. Thanks again.

Well, I ordered the ADVANs. We'll see how this turns out.

Report back once they're mounted!Well, I ordered the ADVANs. We'll see how this turns out.

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the Potenza RE-01Rs. I'm on my second set now with 5 track days and 3 autocrosses. They're definitely the best dual purpose street tire I've ever used.

RE-01R > RE050A PP > S0-3

Potenza RE-01R

/thread

I seriously considered the RE01Rs also, but the Advan Neova AD07 wins in tread width-to-section width ratio--9.1 vs 8.5 (8.5-wide spec rim). The AD07 is also 1 lb lighter than the RE01 (235/40-17). AD07 is also a slight tick faster and better in the wet than RE01R in Tire Rack's tests. I'm glad you like your RE01Rs though!I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the Potenza RE-01Rs. I'm on my second set now with 5 track days and 3 autocrosses. They're definitely the best dual purpose street tire I've ever used.

RE-01R > RE050A PP > S0-3

Potenza RE-01R

/thread

Minor problems with the RT-615 is that they come in either 235/40/17 or 255/40/17 and not 245/40/17. Just a minor problem when wanting to keep your profile to a shorter tire and also keeping the gearing the same.

Also if your running a 17x9 wheel it going to stretch a little when running a 235/40/17.

But we will see once my next pay check comes in because I am planning on picking up some 235/40/17's to fit on my 17x9's

So I got the ADVANs on, today. I didn't measure the Pilot Sport 2's I had on there (245 and 275) but as far as I can tell the 235 and 265 ADVANs are as wide as, if not wider than, the PS2's. They must have a very stiff sidewall because I definitely feel more bumps/road grooves than with the PS2s and road noise is up. However I LOVE the performance aspect. I'll put some miles on them this week and then give a full rundown after BIR on the 18th and 19th of May.

I didn't notice the increased road noise as much compared with the old RE050As. Maybe the PS2s were super quiet and smooth compared with the Stones. Glad the Advan's widths worked out for you. I knew that with my 235/40-17, they look pretty much like 245/40-17s on my 8.5-wide wheels--except a touch shorter in overall diameter. Enjoy! I'll be at Mid Ohio in a couple of weeks (May 16/17) with MOR PCA http://www.morpca.org/main.htm so I'll follow up then. At that time I should have 500 miles on them before the thrashing begins at Mid O LOL :)So I got the ADVANs on, today. I didn't measure the Pilot Sport 2's I had on there (245 and 275) but as far as I can tell the 235 and 265 ADVANs are as wide as, if not wider than, the PS2's. They must have a very stiff sidewall because I definitely feel more bumps/road grooves than with the PS2s and road noise is up. However I LOVE the performance aspect. I'll put some miles on them this week and then give a full rundown after BIR on the 18th and 19th of May.

Friend of mine is running the Bridgestone RE01s on his Porsche 993. He's loving them.

I'm running Kumho MXs on Sleep's old RX7. Hi Manny. :)

Not sure if the Falken 615s are a good idea for open track sessions. They are great for autox where they are very sticky cold and heat up quick. The downside is that they heat up quick and don't cool down. Other tires appear to be more consistent.

Hey, Alberto! Boy do I miss the speed of the old Rx7. The M3's slower by 1 to 2 seconds at Putnam and Mid Ohio, but the M3 taxicab has been much more practical and reliable for me--and it's easy to find someone to work on a bimmer vs the old twin turbo rotary.

Check out this thread. It's a series of vids at Putnam from 2 weekends ago. The first vid is with a student following my line (I'm in the black M3/4-door/5-speed). One hotlap was 1:26.XX, in the old (your) Rx7, I'd do 1:24.XX (on those old Pirellis you got rid of). http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=740557

Luckily for you there are plenty of rotorhead mechs where you are--wait--San Diego? My old Rx7's there? I thought you were on the East Coast??!!

Agree on the RT615 Falkens. A friend with an E46 ZHP (Performance Package) 330i says the 615s overheat after 3 laps, then they great greasy, and undrivable--so he adjusts (slows down). He leaves the Falkens on his car since he's mostly an autocrosser, and an infrequent open lapping trackday instructor.
Friend of mine is running the Bridgestone RE01s on his Porsche 993. He's loving them.

I'm running Kumho MXs on Sleep's old RX7. Hi Manny. :)

Not sure if the Falken 615s are a good idea for open track sessions. They are great for autox where they are very sticky cold and heat up quick. The downside is that they heat up quick and don't cool down. Other tires appear to be more consistent.

You're both quite correct regarding the RT615 Falkens. They're a Street/Autocross tire and definitely no good for extended track work.

Great for Autocross, very good for the street albeit with a very short lifespan and almost a waste on the track. The fact that they won't run for more than 2 laps typically, without overheating and going away would be bad enough, but then to have them wear quickly from being run above their optimal operating range just adds insult to injury. Then when you add the fact that by overheating them on the track you'll be reducing their effectiveness somewhat for Autocross events it makes even less sense.

The Advans run autocross event times very close to the Falkens, but are better on the street and way, way better on the track. Yes, they cost more, but they also last longer. If you're only going to have one tire to do a reasonably good job at everything, the Falkens are just to "single purpose" oriented to really fit the bill. If you the hot Autocross Street tire, then the 615's are very difficult to beat, but outside that narrow environment there are better choices.

Regards, Alan

If the RT 615's are anywhere close to the old Azenis, then I can wholeheartedly agree on trackday performance. By lap 3 I was doing full-on AWD drifts on greased up Azenis. Fun? Yes. Controllable? Definitely. Fast? No.

Question....you think its worth it to get the Advans over the rt615 for twice the price if your car is a summer sunny day DD and weekend auto-x car?

Question....you think its worth it to get the Advans over the rt615 for twice the price if your car is a summer sunny day DD and weekend auto-x car?

Sounds like you need the RE-01R. 245/40/17's are $146ea at tirerack.com.

I love my RE-01Rs, you'd be a fool not to consider them at that price.

Sounds like you need the RE-01R. 245/40/17's are $146ea at tirerack.com.


Nice....but they are nearly 6 lbs heavier than my PS2 :eek:

I also wholeheardtedly agree on the RT615s - I was getting about 4 laps before they were going into 'drift' mode.

I'd like to try something else, but the RT615s are so sticky and cheap that it's hard to say no.

Question....you think its worth it to get the Advans over the rt615 for twice the price if your car is a summer sunny day DD and weekend auto-x car?

Not if your driving in really "summer sunny" only. They are not a good wet tire even on the street.

-bj

How much more are the PS2s tho?
Sounds like he went with Adveons anyway.

Question....you think its worth it to get the Advans over the rt615 for twice the price if your car is a summer sunny day DD and weekend auto-x car?
Not if your driving in really "summer sunny" only. They are not a good wet tire even on the street.
-bjBJ, the way you've worded it, it sounds as if you're saying go with the 615's when, judging from your comment about poor wet traction, I'm presuming you're actually saying go with the Yokos. Would that be correct?
Sounds like you need the RE-01R. 245/40/17's are $146ea at tirerack.com.For the price they're hard to beat. The RE-01R is almost identical to the Yoko in autoslalom, just a touch slower but almost a tie, while it's a smoother street tire and is quite a bit less expensive.

Regards, Alan

BJ, the way you've worded it, it sounds as if you're saying go with the 615's when, judging from your comment about poor wet traction, I'm presuming you're actually saying go with the Yokos. Would that be correct?


Alan, I must have been drunk when I typed that. I guess that's why you shouldn't post during happy hour. What I was was trying to convey is that the RT-615 would be a great sunny day and auto cross tire. If you'll be truely daily driving the tire, then I would purchase a tire with better wet traction.

-bj

That's what I throught you were meaning, but just wan't sure.:)

I think it's fine to Post during Happy Hour :beer, just so long as it doesn't cut into Happy Hour too much :drink1, and as long as we remember not to Drive during Happy Hour. The consequences can sure suck.
:pullover
Regards, Alan

Hey, Alberto! Boy do I miss the speed of the old Rx7. The M3's slower by 1 to 2 seconds at Putnam and Mid Ohio, but the M3 taxicab has been much more practical and reliable for me--and it's easy to find someone to work on a bimmer vs the old twin turbo rotary.

Check out this thread. It's a series of vids at Putnam from 2 weekends ago. The first vid is with a student following my line (I'm in the black M3/4-door/5-speed). One hotlap was 1:26.XX, in the old (your) Rx7, I'd do 1:24.XX (on those old Pirellis you got rid of). http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=740557

Luckily for you there are plenty of rotorhead mechs where you are--wait--San Diego? My old Rx7's there? I thought you were on the East Coast??!!

Agree on the RT615 Falkens. A friend with an E46 ZHP (Performance Package) 330i says the 615s overheat after 3 laps, then they great greasy, and undrivable--so he adjusts (slows down). He leaves the Falkens on his car since he's mostly an autocrosser, and an infrequent open lapping trackday instructor.


Yep. Wife and I moved to sunny San Diego now. No more being a subway rat in NYC.

Heading out to Buttonwillow 5/12 - 5/13.

You were probably leaving some time on the table using those P6000. Kumhos blow them away as if the 6000s were all season tires.

I wonder if I'll see anyone from here...

Great for Autocross, very good for the street albeit with a very short lifespan and almost a waste on the track. The fact that they won't run for more than 2 laps typically, without overheating and going away would be bad enough, but then to have them wear quickly from being run above their optimal operating range just adds insult to injury.
Sounds like you were running them at a pressure that was too high.

Your experience mirrored my first experience on RT-615's, but then once I figured out to keep them at 38PSI, I would get long, consistent sessions from them. This is on a full-weight E46 M3 driven hard, so no easy laps there.

Yep. Wife and I moved to sunny San Diego now. No more being a subway rat in NYC.

Heading out to Buttonwillow 5/12 - 5/13.

You were probably leaving some time on the table using those P6000. Kumhos blow them away as if the 6000s were all season tires.

I wonder if I'll see anyone from here...Good luck, Alberto. Make me proud with the FD (I put my heart, soul, and finances in that car). Yes, the the P6000s were not very sticky; they squealed like stuck pigs--but they were fun for drifting LOL

I seriously considered the RE01Rs also, but the Advan Neova AD07 wins in tread width-to-section width ratio--9.1 vs 8.5 (8.5-wide spec rim). The AD07 is also 1 lb lighter than the RE01 (235/40-17). AD07 is also a slight tick faster and better in the wet than RE01R in Tire Rack's tests. I'm glad you like your RE01Rs though!

I currently have both the re01 and ad07 on different wheels. The advans are significantly faster and better handle 20 min track session. They do overheat but to a much lesser degree. I can also confirm the thread width advantage for the ad07s, they are much wider.

Simply put the Advan Neova AD07 and the best performing street tires I have ever run.

i can only recommend Continental SportContact 2's not sure if you can get em in the states but thats basically what everyone runs on their trackable car here in germany. great grip google around for some ratings. they were rated the best street and agressive driving tire by ADAC

I currently have both the re01 and ad07 on different wheels. The advans are significantly faster and better handle 20 min track session. They do overheat but to a much lesser degree. I can also confirm the thread width advantage for the ad07s, they are much wider.

Simply put the Advan Neova AD07 and the best performing street tires I have ever run.AD07s for the win :)

i recently put on advans to replace my ps2's. i can already tell the grip better. this weekend i'll see how they handle the track.

i was wondering how the ride quality would be. ps2's have soft sidwalls. advans are stiff as hell. the ride feels the same. except for the really sharp breaks in the pavement. that's when the stiffness is felt.

what track will you be on this weekend?

what track will you be on this weekend?

i'll be at jefferson on friday for an instructor academy day. i didn't sign up in time to get into the sunday school.

i got your pm, i've just been really bussy. i'll give you a call sometime to see if we can get together for a drive or something.

after driving 160 miles on the advans, here's my verdict.

dry traction:
advans and ps2 about the same. very good. ps2 was easier to overheat. i did not overheat advans despite overdriving them on purpose.
kumho mx can't compare to these two.

wet traction:
ps2's are great. advans, don't know yet. if they are anything like the yoko avs sport or better, i'll be fine. MX were the worst i've had in the rain.

slip angle:
judging on feel only, ps2 has a smooth breakaway, but abrupt recovery. you really have to be fast at unwinding the wheel to recover from a drift. advans were smooth in and out of a drift. very predictable.
advans also feel like they work fine at a higher scrub angle when steering as opposed to the ps2's. neither tire chunked from abuse. after a hard weekend, both tires drove me home without any steering wheel shake. MX's fell apart after hard use. chunking and steering shake were bad after hard use. yoko avs sport chunked some from abuse, but no shake.

ride quality:
best ride over sharp breaks in concrete, ps2, follower by the MX, then the advan and avs sport. might be due to the stifness of yoko sidewalls and weight of the tires.

unless yokohama comes out with something they say is a better street tire than the advan neova, i've found my tire of choice. price be damned. it's still cheaper than body work.

after driving 160 miles on the advans, here's my verdict.

dry traction:
advans and ps2 about the same. very good. ps2 was easier to overheat. i did not overheat advans despite overdriving them on purpose.
kumho mx can't compare to these two.

wet traction:
ps2's are great. advans, don't know yet. if they are anything like the yoko avs sport or better, i'll be fine. MX were the worst i've had in the rain.

slip angle:
judging on feel only, ps2 has a smooth breakaway, but abrupt recovery. you really have to be fast at unwinding the wheel to recover from a drift. advans were smooth in and out of a drift. very predictable.
advans also feel like they work fine at a higher scrub angle when steering as opposed to the ps2's. neither tire chunked from abuse. after a hard weekend, both tires drove me home without any steering wheel shake. MX's fell apart after hard use. chunking and steering shake were bad after hard use. yoko avs sport chunked some from abuse, but no shake.

ride quality:
best ride over sharp breaks in concrete, ps2, follower by the MX, then the advan and avs sport. might be due to the stifness of yoko sidewalls and weight of the tires.

unless yokohama comes out with something they say is a better street tire than the advan neova, i've found my tire of choice. price be damned. it's still cheaper than body work.

And just to be clear, what tire from Advan is this (full name please).

And just to be clear, what tire from Advan is this (full name please).

advan neova ad07

advan neova ad07

Thanks! :cool

falken fk452 anyone?

advan neova ad07
+1

Pilot Sport PS2
Bridgestone SO3
Toyo RA-1

I have tested the NEW Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres on the track, we did 2 runs using Audi A3 2.0T running on Adrenalin and then switched to the same car running Bridgestone S03 tyres. The grip level was immediately clear on the Adrenalin, some of the experienced drivers swore it handled like semi-slicks. The car went exactly where it was pointed and stayed on that line lap after lap clipping the apex in every turn and that was on an FF car; understeer! It's definitly my next tyre set after the TOYO CT01 on it now. Treadwear was 220, not bad at all for such performance.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED..

I have tested the NEW Bridgestone Adrenalin tyres on the track, we did 2 runs using Audi A3 2.0T running on Adrenalin and then switched to the same car running Bridgestone S03 tyres. The grip level was immediately clear on the Adrenalin, some of the experienced drivers swore it handled like semi-slicks. The car went exactly where it was pointed and stayed on that line lap after lap clipping the apex in every turn and that was on an FF car; understeer! It's definitly my next tyre set after the TOYO CT01 on it now. Treadwear was 220, not bad at all for such performance.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED..

i don't think we get those tires in this country. got any pics of the adrenalin?

i don't think we get those tires in this country. got any pics of the adrenalin?
http://www.unlockme.co.nz/

and if you can get this link to work:
http://www.potenza-adrenalin.com/

The Adrenalins would be just the ticket for me to replace my SO3s in 205/50-15.....are you listening, Tire Rack?

Gary

So I'm very new to DE days and want to do more of them.

I have a 540i and have a set of 18" wheels with BFGoodrich KDW2s. Great tires so far, but i've heard they chunk really bad on the track.

I still have my 17" wheels with Pilot Sports on them with about 3.5 - 4/32nds on them. I will be using these in a couple of weeks at the local track for a DE day, but i'm thinking they will be no good any more after that. If it rains that day i'll have no choice but to use the 18s.

I have a while till the next track day or till an auto-x day (7month old keeps me pretty occupied). I want to get an idea of how much to spend. Really, I need a set of tires (235/45/17 on there currently), that are not too expensive - say 200 max, but less is better, are not necessarily the best tires as my driving skill is not really up there yet, and really the street performance does not matter, as i will always swap the 17's on there for the track.

From reading this post, a couple of tires have popped up in my price range.

Kumho MX - $120ea - people like them, seem to be the best bang for the buck.
Yokohoma advan neova ad07 - $202ea - favorites here
Azenis 615 - not sure of price - good for auto-x, not for track
Yokohoma ES100 - I found a set used with 85% left for about $90/tire, but the reviews here are bad for the track, just wondering if with my ltd skills they would be ok.

I'm just wondering if the Khumo MX or the ES100s will be fine for me for now, and as my skills improve I can go to better tires. I figure I don't need the best right now, and with the baby, need to keep costs down as much as possible.

Any suggestions on a cost offective tire for a beginner would be much appreciated.

The Adrenalins would be just the ticket for me to replace my SO3s in 205/50-15.....are you listening, Tire Rack?

Gary

Did you see the bridgestone website, there is minimal tech info on it and the fact most of the available sizes are narrow and small....

I dont think this is a high perf tire like the RE01R

The Adrenalins would be just the ticket for me to replace my SO3s in 205/50-15.....are you listening, Tire Rack?

Gary

The RE-01R is now available in a 195/50/15. I'd guess the performance is on par with or better than the 205/50/15 S03s.

Did you see the bridgestone website, there is minimal tech info on it and the fact most of the available sizes are narrow and small....

I dont think this is a high perf tire like the RE01R

Well, the Adrenalin was developed by former F1 driver Stefano Modena, 2 years in the making and vigorous testing and sending it back to the Bridgestone factory in Japan till he got what he wanted in it. He was at the Autodrome throughout the whole launching day, bigger sizes are on the way according to Bridgestone officials. Believe it or not, this IS a high-end performance tire. So said the track results and so said all the expert racers who were there that day. You just need to be patient....

i really dislike the MX. the breakaway characteristics in the rain scare me.
i used the yoko avs sport for a while and really liked them if price was an issue. plus, you can flip them on the rim near the end of their life if you destroy the outer edges.
i have never used the avs es100.


I'm just wondering if the Khumo MX or the ES100s will be fine for me for now, and as my skills improve I can go to better tires. I figure I don't need the best right now, and with the baby, need to keep costs down as much as possible.

Any suggestions on a cost offective tire for a beginner would be much appreciated.

Don't think you'll be happy with the ES100s. I used one set and they were OK but nothing special. Like the Kumho MX they're an older design that has been well surpassed by newer generation tires.

The Azenis RT-615s would be a complete waste on the track on a 540, you'd be lucky to get 2 laps out of them before they started to slide from being overheated. While the ES100s tend to be just the opposite, slippery when cold with improved traction once you get some heat in them, albeit with a much lower upper limit.

A friend of mine ran his E34 M540i (one of only 32 ever made) for several track events and liked his Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 setup.

I think, for what you're wanting to do the new Potenza RE-01R or the Advan AD07 are two of the best street tires you could look at considering the weight of the 540i. The hold up well to heat.

It is extrememly important to remember that the 540i is quite a heavy car and as such you'll be generating alot more heat than one would with an M3 or 330i, etc. This means you're best off to use a tire that works well at higher temperatures and doesn't go away due to them, like the Azenis RT-615s would.

Regards, Alan

The RE-01R is now available in a 195/50/15. I'd guess the performance is on par with or better than the 205/50/15 S03s.

Close but no cigar...the 205/50 I'm using on my Mini is already smaller diameter than stock.

The size you mention isn't listed on Bridgestone's site--where do you see them?

Lots of those tires are not cheap and a street car with no camber will smoke them up pretty fast, especially the shoulders. Ever consider something like a separate set of wheels and something like an RE750 to start? Not ultimate grip but not expensive and no worries if you abuse them. When I first started tracking my car I bought some extra wheels and some RE71's (remember those, pretty sweet tire for their day). I had no camber at the time and they held up fine. Rounded them off but no chunking.

I have 2 degrees negative camber, swaybars, shocks/springs and still abuse the shoulders and that is with the front settings of the bar and shocks at full stiff to prevent sidewall rollover. Reminds me, need to flip my RA1's.

Believe it or not, this IS a high-end performance tire. So said the track results and so said all the expert racers who were there that day. You just need to be patient....

Ok, I do need new tires as the PS2 are wearing thin....Hopefully this is better than the PS2, Neova or RE01R...235/40/17....

WILL WAIT PATIENTLY...

Thanks guys, this helps alot. The other thing is that I'm in Canada, and it is hard to get a good price on some of these tires. The ES100 I was only considering because they were so inexpensive, so If I killed thim it would not be that big a deal.

Th RE-01R up here are way to expensive, but down there are right in the ball park.

[quote=91M5;9554326]Lots of those tires are not cheap and a street car with no camber will smoke them up pretty fast, especially the shoulders. Ever consider something like a separate set of wheels and something like an RE750 to start? Not ultimate grip but not expensive and no worries if you abuse them. When I first started tracking my car I bought some extra wheels and some RE71's (remember those, pretty sweet tire for their day). I had no camber at the time and they held up fine. Rounded them off but no chunking.

quote]

I have a seperate set of wheels that I will mount tires on just for DE days.

How do the RE750s compare to the RE01s or the Advan AD07s?

Here's what I don't recommend: Fuzion Hri's. They got me through the weekend but cupped like hell and got real greasy after about 15 minutes.

Close but no cigar...the 205/50 I'm using on my Mini is already smaller diameter than stock.

The size you mention isn't listed on Bridgestone's site--where do you see them?

Sorry, lots of pages to sift through, but they are available:

http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/245110/ShowThread.aspx

How do the RE750s compare to the RE01s or the Advan AD07s?

Not at all the same....

Not at all the same....

werd

The RE750s can't be compared to the latter two tires. The RE-01Rs and the AD07s are basically semi-slick tires.

werd

The RE750s can't be compared to the latter two tires. The RE-01Rs and the AD07s are basically semi-slick tires.


Thanks guys, I'll pick up a set of either the RE-01Rs or the AD07s when the time comes.

appreciate the input.

Thanks guys, I'll pick up a set of either the RE-01Rs or the AD07s when the time comes.

appreciate the input.
With any street tire, if you put about 600-1k road miles on before you get them on the track, they'll chunk much less. I thought the ES100 a fine beginner tire: cheap, fairly durable, lowish limits and loud as hell with progressive breakaway ... but only on a small, relatively lightweight car. Probably wise to avoid them.

-tammer

With any street tire, if you put about 600-1k road miles on before you get them on the track, they'll chunk much less...Good advise. Hopefully, one won't chunk the tires at all (typically due to overheating). I ran a set of 245/40/17 Toyo T1-Rs (another very, very, good tire) on my Volvo S60 AWD for a ton of laps last September's BMW HPDE weekend without any overheating or chunking, and only about 500-600 miles on them. My student's E30 M3 wasn't ready for the school and my E36 M3 had a broken engine:mad, so I loaned the student my Volvo. I already knew them and they were already experienced having run at a couple of tracks and posting times within 2% of a friend (who has podiumed at SCCA Pro-ITB races) driving the same E30 M3 in a Solo I event. So the T1-Rs were on the track for all the Students sessions for the weekend, plus I had it out in most of the Instructors sessions and some of the Advanced Sessions (just to play).
...I thought the ES100 a fine beginner tire: cheap, fairly durable, lowish limits and loud as hell with progressive breakaway ... but only on a small, relatively lightweight car. Probably wise to avoid them.Tammer, I think you're probably right about the ES100 being good as a beginner's tire, but the OP mentioned they're now at the Intermediate level for HPDEs, so for them I was thinking they'd want something with fairly high grip levels but giving up some ultimate grip for predicable and forgiving tires that work well at higher slip angles.
...The tire budget this year calls for a daily tire that will handle HPDEs...I just run intermediate level HPDEs mostly at VIR...Most Intermediate drivers have all the basics down and are working on building seat time, getting smooth, and learning to modulate steering/throttle/brakes in a more seamless fashion.

Regards, Alan

For a beginning driver that doesn't matter.

For a beginning driver that doesn't matter.

by this are you saying the es100s may be ok for a beginner, even in a big car like mine? (540i)?

I'm not looking for the best tire right now, just something that will be decent while i learn.

by this are you saying the es100s may be ok for a beginner, even in a big car like mine? (540i)?

I'm not looking for the best tire right now, just something that will be decent while i learn.

If you are truly a beginner just wanting to get on the track, don't worry about it and run your street tires if they have good tread.

If you, like I did, need new tires anyway, buy something decent but cheap. I chose Hankook RS2 Z212 for $99 each from Edgeracing and just had them mounted yesterday to prepare for our Barber HPDE in Birmingham (Heart of Dixie BMW CCA chapter event)

Once you figure out the basics of the track, then worry about moving to better tires. I've done a little autox and a couple of track days but I know I'm still a novice so I'm not going to worry too much about tires yet until I get consistently fast. I think that's the standard advice given to newbies.

The Adrenalins would be just the ticket for me to replace my SO3s in 205/50-15.....are you listening, Tire Rack?

Gary

Just ordered a set of MXs--got enough positive feedback from here and alot of the Porsche guys seem to really like them also. We'll see @ Mid-Ohio in a couple weeks...the price plus rebate doesn't hurt, either. Only bummer is I'm stuck with two S03s with only 2 track days on them.....

Gary

Just ordered a set of MXs--got enough positive feedback from here and alot of the Porsche guys seem to really like them also. We'll see @ Mid-Ohio in a couple weeks...the price plus rebate doesn't hurt, either. Only bummer is I'm stuck with two S03s with only 2 track days on them.....

Gary

i'll be there with northern ohio BMW CCA may 26, 27

by this are you saying the es100s may be ok for a beginner, even in a big car like mine? (540i)
I'm not looking for the best tire right now, just something that will be decent while i learn.I suspect that's what 91M5 was meaning. The ES100s are a good tire. Not great but good. One does have to remember to get some heat into them as they're slippery when cold. With a heavier car, like a 540i, the tires get a very good workout and therefore if you're choosing a new tire, you want one that can handle heat buildup without getting slippery. The ES100 appears to be reasonably good at that but I don't have any track experience with it, I've only used them as a street tire on my M3.

If they're putting new tires on, a beginner shouldn't be looking for ultimate grip, but should be trying to get a stable, predictable tire.

As miklm mentioned, if you don't have to put new tires on due to wear, then it is possible to run most reasonable Summer Tires and many of the good All Seasons without any trouble. It just means you won't have the highest grip possible, which is a good thing. The higher the grip levels the higher the speeds at any given point on the track and that equates to less time to correct any mistakes that get the car loose. The lower the ultimate grip levels, the lower the speeds at which the car will get loose and therefore the more time to take corrective measures and learn.

Regards, Alan

I'll be at Mid Ohio in a couple of weeks (May 16/17) with MOR PCA http://www.morpca.org/main.htm so I'll follow up then. At that time I should have 500 miles on them before the thrashing begins at Mid O LOL :)Just got back from 2 rainy days at Mid Ohio Sports Car Course instructing for the Mid Ohio Region Porsche Club.

In a word the Advan Neovas were FANTASTIC in the rain. At full tread depth I can charge into T7 at the end of the back straight at 115 mph (10 mph slower than in the dry). The wet grip was amazing through the turns. Slip angles were about half-car width at track out. Handling was predictable.

The best dice I had was my last session yesterday with my garage mate and fellow instructor Bill Woodson. He has a 2004 E46 330i performance package, full suspension mods, 225/40-18 Falken RT-615s, 8 x 18 SSR Comps, and Axxis Ultimate pads.

In the dry I was ~1/2 second faster than my friend--then the rain came--again (this happened all day both days). In the wet, I was gone, to the point that I thought he pitted out (I started out in front, and he was behind me).

When the checkered waved, and I slowed, I finally saw "Bill" approaching as I entered the "Keyhole". Wow, he was still trying to catch me!

Bill raved to others about my wet-driving skills--but the Advan Neovas were largely responsible for my wet driving performance LOL.

I had 2-1/2 dry sessions both days. The tires showed no chunking.

My dry times relative to the old Bridgestone RE050As were 2 seconds faster (1:52 compared with 1:54 lap averages at Mid Ohio). Dry slip angles increased as the tires got hot. The Neovas do squeal, but it's not a high-pitch squeal like with the Michelin PS2s (my student had PS2s on his 2004 M3 with stock 18s).

I had Yellow Stuff R race compounds pads this time compared to last year's EBC GreenStuffs street/track compounds.

I match pads with tires, and I'd say the 2 seconds is still a valid improvement.

Dry grip falls away slightly near the end of the session (30 minute sessions), which is at about the same time the Yellow Stuff R pads begin to fade (good pad/tire match).

On the road, I've grown accustomed to the slight increase in road harshness and noise. I gladly accept these slight annoyances in exchange for the outstanding wet/dry performance.
If you're a DE instructor like me that needs to relax between driving and teaching sessions (no fiddling with tire changes), give the Neovas a try. I'm glad the guys on this forum recommended them to me.

I'm hooked on these tires!

I wanted to follow-up on the Advan Neovas after this weekend's Putnam Park DE with Mid Ohio Region PCA. The Advans now have 2857 miles on them.

The weather was sunny and warm in the mid-80s.

The Neovas stick unbelieavably, and make very little noise at the limit. They warm up quickly, and stick degrades very gradually as the tires get hot near the end of a session.

As a testament to the Neovas, my best run of the weekend was yesterday, as I chased an A-driver in a new Cayman S with wider aftermarket wheels. After 8 laps, I finally got the point-by from the A-driver (I am an instructor in a '97 M3/4door with stock suspension). I stayed in front for two more laps to make the pass stick, but the Neovas stick started to let go, and I dropped a LR tire off of the track at T1's track out. I gathered the car and stayed out front, all the way to the front straight where the checker was waving.

After the session, the Cayman S driver and I shook hands congratulating each other on a heck of a chase.

I checked out the Cayman S's wheel/tire combo--Enkei NT03+Ms with 235 fr, 265 rr 18-in newer Hoosiers.

My heart jumped out of my chest, as it dawned on me that I forced a point by from an A-driver with a superior sports car with racing slicks!

Prior to this weekend I was impressed with the Neovas, but now I'm absolutely won over by them. Until a better dual-purpose tire comes along, I'm staying with the Neoavas!

Down right impressive!! I'd also give YOU a lot of credit for what's obviously a better driver skills than the Cayman S driver....

Down right impressive!! I'd also give YOU a lot of credit for what's obviously a better driver skills than the Cayman S driver....Thanks! Much appreciated :)

What exact model number are you running?

The yokos?

What exact model number are you running?

The yokos?Advan AD07 Neovas. 235/40-17 mounted on 8.5 x 17 rear M Double Spoke IIs all around (plus spare). Suspension is stock. No spacers are needed to clear the front struts.

What exact model number are you running?

The yokos?

The ADVAN Neova AD07's.

I had a similar experience last year when I chanced down a Cayman S with Hoosiers and a Carrera 4S on Kuhmo V710s in my M Coupe with stock suspension and AD07s on stock wheels. Both P-car drivers were instructors. :devillook The AD07s definitely rock.

-bj

The ADVAN Neova AD07's.

I had a similar experience last year when I chanced down a Cayman S with Hoosiers and a Carrera 4S on Kuhmo V710s in my M Coupe with stock suspension and AD07s on stock wheels. Both P-car drivers were instructors. :devillook The AD07s definitely rock.

-bjI'm seeing a pattern here--BMW fighter pilots shooting down P-car bogies LOL:)

Doesn't the 2002 M Coupe have the 333-hp S54 motor?

Not all instructors are fast....obviously. The guy on Hoosiers should not have been caught.

I'm seeing a pattern here--BMW fighter pilots shooting down P-car bogies LOL :)

Unfortunately, I've switched sides. I'm building a Porsche 944 Spec race car. I did buy a BMW Roundel for the hood and a //M badge for the back. I'll have the first and only BMW M944. I'm sure my fellow Porsche racers are going to love it.

-bj

Not all instructors are fast....obviously. The guy on Hoosiers should not have been caught.

True, but you pointing that out makes me look less cool. Shhhh! :rolleyes

j/k

-bj

Unfortunately, I've switched sides. I'm building a Porsche 944 Spec race car. I did buy a BMW Roundel for the hood and a //M badge for the back. I'll have the first and only BMW M944. I'm sure my fellow Porsche racers are going to love it.

-bjWell, they'll know where your allegiance truly lies--with the Bavarians! :)

True, but you pointing that out makes me look less cool. Shhhh!

Not really. That means you can drive that thing--not that it is a slouch by any means.

My problem is that right after I pass some poseur in a Ferrari a guy in a stripped Civic hatchback with 200+hp BLOWS by me. :mad

My problem is that right after I pass some poseur in a Ferrari a guy in a stripped Civic hatchback with 200+hp BLOWS by me. :mad

Isn't that the truth. There is always someone that keeps your ego in check. But to bring the thread back on topic, my ego certainly expanded on those Yoko AD07's. ;)

-bj

Has anyone used the Falken FK452 or Kumho SPT on the track or autocross? Opinions on either them?