Latest E92 M3 pricing!! (http://landshark1.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!E518DC064C7793A7!983.entry)

just in case you guys haven't read this news over at other forums yet.

:cool

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13089

About $10k more than the 335i.

August 17
BMW E92 M3 coupe pricing!!

Hot news...!!! Just saw this on the M5 board.......

BMW E92 M3 Coupe Pricing:

Major Standard Equipment***

4.0L 307kW (418HP) 420Nm
Adaptive Xenon Headlights
Carbon Fiber Roof
SMGIII 7-speeds transmission with DriveLogic
18" M Double Spoke Alloy Wheels
18x8F/18x9R with 235/45ZR18 Front, 265/40ZR/18 Rear Performance tiresInvoice $49,117
Base Price USA (port of entry) $53,975 (ouch..!!)

Vehicle Options List

Metallic Paint $475
Nappa Leather $1,450
Carbon Fiber trim $300
Aluminum trim $ NC
Comfort Access (a.k.a. keyless entry, etc.) $500
M Multifunction Seats with Active Width Adjustment $1,900
Front Heated Seats $500/ZCW (included in Cold Weather Package)
Power Rear Sunshade $350
Head-Up Display $1,000 (I tried on the M6, pretty cool!!)
Navigation System w/ I-Drive $2,100
Rear Park Distance Control $350 (I thought it's included w/ the SMG? At least that's the case in my E46 M3)
19" M Double Spoke Alloy Wheels $1,750
19x8.5F/19x9.5R with 235/40ZR19 Front, 265/35ZR19 Rear Performance tires
Logic7 Sound System $1,200
SIRIUS Satellite Radio $595
High Definition Radio $500
Premium Package (ZPP) $3,100 (didn't say what's included at the moment....)
Cold Weather Package (ZCW) $750
6-speed manual transimission $ N/C
Rear Spoiler Deletion $ N/CEven though it "might" not be the real list, but I bet it's real close if not 100%!! So, it will have a 4.0L 418hp V8, 7 speeds SMGIII from the M5/M6, and along with the carbon fiber roof (like the M6).

<hr>

Whoa... that's gonna be pricey.

Wow, that is great price for the new M3. Now I'm definitely buying M3 instead of 335i.

yup..... I built one for $66k!! gonna be $70k+ after tax & tag!! as that price, there's many choice.... lightly used 997S, used GT3, used 996TT, even the new Skyline (around $80k, but I can get it close to $70k).......

There's no tax and tags on a used 997S, used GT3, and used 996TT?

Sign me up too!

lightly used 997S, used GT3, used 996TT, even the new Skyline (around $80k, but I can get it close to $70k).......


Lack of a usable back seat & trunk make those cars outside of my market. Plus, while rear engined cars are great for performance, maintanence on them is rather difficult.

Plus, free maint on the M3 is a hard benefit to overlook...

wow i gotta say thats better than what i was expecting. With the Audi starting at 66k i surely thought bmw was gonna go above and beyond that. 5000 is a steep increase, but given that my e36 in 94 was bought for 39k out the door and now the m3 starts at 49k...it seems about right

Lack of a usable back seat & trunk make those cars outside of my market. Plus, while rear engined cars are great for performance, maintanence on them is rather difficult.
different case to me, I have a SUV for daily drive and haul stuffs :cool

Plus, free maint on the M3 is a hard benefit to overlook...

that's a MAJOR plus for BMW!!

Can't compare a used car to a new car. The pricing is still very aggressive for what you're getting.

Yes but how much will the thing weigh?

Yes but how much will the thing weigh?

Dude, there's another post for that question. This post is on PRICING!!!

WOW! I figured it would be more like $60-70k. This should be a very impressive car.

Dude, there's another post for that question. This post is on PRICING!!!

Good for you!!!!

WOW! I figured it would be more like $60-70k. This should be a very impressive car.

Add option's and it is.....

Does this mean that the price of the E46 M3s is going to drastically drop?

uh oh, looks pretty good for me :)

Not fear!

In norway i guess the price will be around $150.000

probably 60ish with options after tax and titles...id rather save another 15K and get a M5

My M3 w/ options comes out to about $65k before taxes & title. Out the door, I'm probably looking at $71k :eek3:

I bet it will have a prem. markup for the 1st yr plus gremlin bugs too.

I guess a lot of people here have $$, $65-70K+ seems pretty high in my book. :confused .. You come way to close to p-car territory if you are strictly speaking of performance and can ignore utility (backseats). The cayman S is a great car that is cheaper I think. I'm still not a fan of the styling of the car.

Kevin - why not a good used 2003 M5 for around $45-50K if you need backseats and want good trunk space, plus, you can get it CPO'd and extended maintenance until 2009-2010 depending on build date. That CF roof, although nifty, man, if any accidents occur, how the heck do you fix the car? Can it be fixed? The insurance might be fairly high on it as a result.

I think the E46 M3's price has already taken the hit -- if this car costs $65K optioned out (not including taxes/tags), then the E46 M3 at $30-45K seems a fairly good price for performance. The current E46 M3 does what, a 0-60 in 4.8 and 13.3 1/4 mile.

65-70k for an M3 will probably price it out of my range until my job decides to fork over the extra money per year that they should be paying me. While I love the P-cars, the lack of scheduled maintanence is a real turn off and the fact that maintanence and repair work on an engine that is located in the rear of the car is often twice as much as if it was mounted in the front.

While I could go out and get a Porsche... I'm not baller enough to be able to maintain, modify and repair one should I have to. Hopefully one day ... but not today.

E39 M5 would be nice... but I doubt I'd be able to get a maintanence and warranty plan that would cover my needs.

You guys don't understand how porsche sales work. if you think the MSRP is anything near what you pay, you're crazy. go to porsche.com and do a dealer search. caymans sell for 70+, 911's START at basically 90k. EVERYTHING is an option with porsche's and a vert expensive one at that.

Yes... last time I went to the dealer to purchase a 911, the base price was just over 65k ... but after options (it was a 60 page option book) the car was upwards of 110k... for a base 911.

Mind you, the power package back then tacked on an additional 15,000 for a few extra ponies.

You guys don't understand how porsche sales work. if you think the MSRP is anything near what you pay, you're crazy. go to porsche.com and do a dealer search. caymans sell for 70+, 911's START at basically 90k. EVERYTHING is an option with porsche's and a vert expensive one at that.

So true, but I don't think the base 911 start around $90k. My buddies slightly used 911S was $96k + clear bra new and he got if for around $91. NO ONE can nickle and dime you like a Porsche dealer. Back in the day, they were selling $90k Boxsters!!! Not even an "S" model.

Specific power & torque
V8 = 412 SAE hp (417 DIN)/4.0
Torque = 310/4.0 lb-ft

My config:


Major Standard Equipment***
4.0L V8 307kW 420Nm (bi-VANOS 3rd gen.) engine
Adaptive Xenon Headlights
Carbon Fiber Roof
SMG III 7-Speed transmission with DRIVELOGIC
18" M Double Spoke Alloy Wheel
18x8F/18x9R with P235/45ZR18 Front, P265/40ZR18 Rear Performance tires.


Invoice $49,117
Base Price USA Port of Entry* $53,975

Vehicle Options List
Metallic paint $475
Nappa leather $1,450
Carbon fiber trim $300
Comfort Access $500
M Multifunction Seats with Active Width Adjustment $1,900
19" M Double Spoke alloy wheel $1,750
19x8.5F/19x9.5R with P235/40ZR19 Front, P265/35ZR19 Rear Performance tires.


Sub Total: $60,350.

Specific power & torque

V8 = 412 SAE hp (417 DIN)/4.0

Torque = 310/4.0 lb-ft



My config:


Major Standard Equipment***
4.0L V8 307kW 420Nm (bi-VANOS 3rd gen.) engine
Adaptive Xenon Headlights
Carbon Fiber Roof
SMG III 7-Speed transmission with DRIVELOGIC
18" M Double Spoke Alloy Wheel
18x8F/18x9R with P235/45ZR18 Front, P265/40ZR18 Rear Performance tires.


Invoice $49,117
Base Price USA Port of Entry* $53,975

Vehicle Options List
Metallic paint $475
Nappa leather $1,450
Carbon fiber trim $300
Comfort Access $500
M Multifunction Seats with Active Width Adjustment $1,900
19" M Double Spoke alloy wheel $1,750
19x8.5F/19x9.5R with P235/40ZR19 Front, P265/35ZR19 Rear Performance tires.


Sub Total: $60,350.

That site says the E92 M3 will go from 1-100 km/hr in just about 5 seconds. WTF? Isn't 100 km/hr the same as 62 mph? Shouldn't it be less than that, since the E46 M3 probably does it in about that?

It seems that they were eager to put it below $50k. It already has some serious contention, but $60k w/ options is really not that bad.
E46 already does 0-62mph in 4.8s, E92 will flat out beat it. Does anyone have rumors on this?

I just can't wait to see the Canadian pricing....with the exchange rate 'tween the US and Canada, our prices should be ~1.15-1.20 more (depending on the dollar of course) than in the US. But the Canadian-sold E46 M3s with the Competition package are ~$80K US after conversion for CDN money....sad, just sad. I'm guessing the M3 will hit $100K CDN when it arrives. If so, I'll head across the border and buy me one in the US.

gonna be pretty expensive...
but compare to what you get from it, i think it's worth it :)

Any news on the 'vert? I'm guessing $7-8K more, but with that stupid folding hardtop, who knows? :dunno

I have the sinking suspicion that a mildly equipped M3 'vert is going to be mid $70's. At that point, I'm seriously thinking P-car, even though I also need real back seats (my kids are young, they can squeeze in). This is particularly true if it ends up as heavy as I'm afraid it will...and Lord knows that roof ain't gonna be light!

I don't think the folding hardtop will be as described - it just seems nuts to me.
probably $7-$8k more indeed, and as usual heavier and slower... but I guess if you can't live without it...

It can't be helped. They are putting bigger engine in it.
It has to be heavier. :/
I wonder how it handles compare to older M3s.

They give you absolutely no options standard. When buying a car of that pedigree, you expect some of those options to be standard. What a joke. :rolleyes

During the first year of a highly anticipated car's introduction, nothing is standard. The free options list will start expanding during the second year, and by year four the effective price for a particular package will probably drop by about $5k. I don't think very many people are going to be getting these at sticker in the near future. They're going to be going for a pretty high premium, out of my range.

I love the teenagers posting on this thread that 60K is a great value. :D

>>Torque = 310/4.0 lb-ft<<

REally? Is that right? 310 ft lbs? You mean, the 335i which has been dynoed at 300 Wheel ftlbs is making about 40 more ft lbs?

>>That site says the E92 M3 will go from 1-100 km/hr in just about 5 seconds. WTF? Isn't 100 km/hr the same as 62 mph? Shouldn't it be less than that, since the E46 M3 probably does it in about that? <<

Ah, but we dont know the weight of the beast, do we! I usually take about .3 sec off the 0-62 time to find the 0-60. Id have expected 0-60 to come up faster than 4.7 sec also. After all, thats barely .2 sec faster than the 335i. But then, the 335i makes about 40 more ft lbs.. Still, acceleration times are more about hp than about trq.

That's not that bad...all I really want is a navigation system and a nice exterior color (something along the lines of Montego Blue Metallic). Anything else is an afterthought.

Don't know why anyone would want the damn multi-function seat. The only reason to get it in an M5 is to get the air-conditioned seat option.

It'll probably have all the standard features of the 335i, so it won't be a striped car.

I have to agree with Paul. There has to be more here than meets the eye. BMW would not build the 335 so close in performance and abilities for only 10 grand less. With mods that we already have in the works a 335 will be a beast on it's own for a lot less money.

Jeff
Eurobahn

I have to agree with Paul. There has to be more here than meets the eye. BMW would not build the 335 so close in performance and abilities for only 10 grand less. With mods that we already have in the works a 335 will be a beast on it's own for a lot less money.

Jeff
Eurobahn

How much more would you expect power wise? Go too far over 400 and you start getting in M5 territory, and we know that BMW has always made the m5 faster than the M3. The 335 just looks like the car to have.

FWIW I saw the M3 test car or whatever followed by an M6 a couple of weeks ago heading south on 101. It had all that tape and plastic crap all over it, but it was still pretty easy to figure out what I was looking at.

How much more would you expect power wise? Go too far over 400 and you start getting in M5 territory, and we know that BMW has always made the m5 faster than the M3. The 335 just looks like the car to have.

FWIW I saw the M3 test car or whatever followed by an M6 a couple of weeks ago heading south on 101. It had all that tape and plastic crap all over it, but it was still pretty easy to figure out what I was looking at.


Peter, just for starters our software upgrade alone will be good for nearly 50HP! And we have a few other tricks we are working on for another 20-30HP.

Jeff
Eurobahn

Peter, just for starters our software upgrade alone will be good for nearly 50HP! And we have a few other tricks we are working on for another 20-30HP.

Jeff
Eurobahn

I'd much rather own a factory turbocharged car if I was going for cheap and easy power upgrades. No doubt about that one.

I dont think BMW gives a damn about the aftermarket tho. So a 335 could easily be faster for less than the base price of the new m3 after upgrading it, but I really really doubt that was any sort of factor in BMW's design matrix.

^+1. I also think there will be a million BMW electronics that deny warranty coverage when an independant shop looks at the car, let alone ups the boost.

well i was going to go to a 911 carrera S after my lease is up in 24 months...now i may reconsider.

Peter, just for starters our software upgrade alone will be good for nearly 50HP! And we have a few other tricks we are working on for another 20-30HP.

Jeff
Eurobahn

^+1. I also think there will be a million BMW electronics that deny warranty coverage when an independant shop looks at the car, let alone ups the boost.


Have you guys thought about this at all when developing software? I know with other cars there's ways to reflash and go back to factory settings without the dealership knowing but i doubt bmw will overlook this. Just not sure id be comfortable throwing a chip on for an extra 50hp if it would void an entire maintenance/warranty on a 40k+ car. \

Have you guys thought about this at all when developing software? I know with other cars there's ways to reflash and go back to factory settings without the dealership knowing but i doubt bmw will overlook this. Just not sure id be comfortable throwing a chip on for an extra 50hp if it would void an entire maintenance/warranty on a 40k+ car. \

If its just a reflash then you can go back to factory programming whenever you want. They may or may not be able to tell if its been done, no one will really know until the cars been out for a while.

Personally I'd wait until the warranty is up before doing major things to the car, especially if BMW is offering its nice bumper to bumper coverage.

Have you guys thought about this at all when developing software? I know with other cars there's ways to reflash and go back to factory settings without the dealership knowing but i doubt bmw will overlook this. Just not sure id be comfortable throwing a chip on for an extra 50hp if it would void an entire maintenance/warranty on a 40k+ car. \

+1. With all the remote servicing stuff and other electronic nannies they have on new cars, I have to think there will be some kind of trail left behind by aftermarket software.

I think tuners will have to get around this at a horrendous cost, or the only software that won't void the warranty will be the Dinan stuff, which as the ONLY way to up the boost these cars for the first 4 years before warranties expire, will be marked up beyond belief. If there is anyway for BMW to track aftermarket software, Dinan will basically have a monopoly and their prices will skyrocket even further :eek: Unless people are willing to risk their warranty, which I highly doubt they will given how complex these cars have gotten.

Oh nice I love the carbon fiber roof. What a genius idea, not to mention it looks sweet

+1. With all the remote servicing stuff and other electronic nannies they have on new cars, I have to think there will be some kind of trail left behind by aftermarket software.

I think tuners will have to get around this at a horrendous cost, or the only software that won't void the warranty will be the Dinan stuff, which as the ONLY way to up the boost these cars for the first 4 years before warranties expire, will be marked up beyond belief. If there is anyway for BMW to track aftermarket software, Dinan will basically have a monopoly and their prices will skyrocket even further :eek: Unless people are willing to risk their warranty, which I highly doubt they will given how complex these cars have gotten.

Great questions! Without giving away the farm, there is a simple way to program the new car's DME without leaving a trace. We are doing it already! In addition the what is already known as regards to the Magnusson Moss act which clearly protects customers who tune their vehicle as long as they do not violate emissions protocols which we do not :)

We are also working on a hand held device to acompany our programming now. This will allow the customer to re-flash back to stock without the need to visit a Eurobahn Tuning Center. :alright

Jeff
Eurobahn

I do not know Jeff -- I know p-car owners, especially '02 model and newer, are a bit more hesitant to do it b/c somehow the manufacturer is able to tell if you had software, even if you reflash back. If they want to -- they'll be able to tell. Just like if you deleted your HD -- if someone really wants, they can go and restore it.

I think the price is a bit high -- $65-70K is pretty high. You guys are optioning it out; but, do not forget tax/tags/title/delivery fee. So, $65K is 'lightly' optioned.

I think the 335i will be faster in a straight-line. The M3 will have the LSD -- and, probably be much faster around a road course. I think this is how they are keeping the two separate. I do not think the M3 will be faster in a straightline than the 335i (assuming 335i gets just a chip, lol). The 335i is putting down monster numbers ... if it had an LSD -- it might eat the M3 alive, and, be cheaper to insure since it's not a 'M' :)

w00t E46 M3 price is going to drop

I do not know Jeff -- I know p-car owners, especially '02 model and newer, are a bit more hesitant to do it b/c somehow the manufacturer is able to tell if you had software, even if you reflash back. If they want to -- they'll be able to tell. Just like if you deleted your HD -- if someone really wants, they can go and restore it.

In general I would agree with you, but no one seems to be that concerned about it now. Here are our latest sales positions; Number 3 most popular software we are doing now are 2000 and newer Porsche vehicles. Number Two are BMW 550, 650 & 750 models and the number one group is a tie between VW/Audi new 2.0fsi Turbo's and the Mercedes built Dodge Sprinters.

The number one group is way ahead at the moment as the Audi A4 and A3 along with the GTI and GLI VW's are very hot. The software only upgrade on one of these is nearly 50HP at the wheels.

Jeff
Eurobahn

Anyone else not too fond of the SMG transmission? I hope they come out with a manual version...if not... :(

I have never been a fan of SMG. I have nothing against it I just prefer shifting through the gears the old fashioned way :):drummer

Jeff
Eurobahn

I agree....I think sales might be affected (by how much i dont know) if they decide not to come out with a 6-speed manual transmission. I was already disappointed when the M5's didnt have that option, but it was kind of understandable since it was more of a sedan. But M3....well yeah.. any information on whether or not they will have 6 speeds?

.. Still, acceleration times are more about hp than about trq.

Actually, I think you have that backwards. Tq will ultimately dictate acceleration, and HP will dictate top speed.

Actually, I think you have that backwards. Tq will ultimately dictate acceleration, and HP will dictate top speed.

This is a very common thing to hear and it's very wrong too, ITS ALL ABOUT HP!!

HP is the power the engine generates and it relates to Tq by this simple equation:

HP = TQ * RPM (with the right unit conversion)

If you have a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) and you are able to stay at a fixed RPM, then you would want to be on the peak of the HP curve not the Torque curve. Of course in the end Tq on the tires is what accelerates the car at a given tire rotation speed, and here comes the Transmission to set the right ratio between the engine speed and wheel speed and that affects the torque on tires in an opposite way. Sounds complicated ? here is a simple example:

Lets say an engine has:

TQ peak of 100ft-p with 100HP at 1000rpm
HP peak of 200HP with 50ft-p at 4000rpm,

You want to design the transmission so that the car will have the best acceleration while running at X speed in which the tire is rotating at 500 rpm,

if you want to set your gears so that you could be on the TQ peak at that speed you will need a 2X gear which means:

RPM at engine = 1000
TQ at engine = 100
HP at Engine = 100

2X Gear

RPM at tire = 500 (/2)
TQ at Tire = 200 (x2)
HP at Tire = 100 (HP doesn't change)

now if you do the same but at the peak of the HP:

RPM at engine = 4000
TQ at engine = 50
HP at Engine = 200

8X Gear

RPM at tire = 500 (/8)
TQ at Tire = 400 (x8) MUCH higher Torque at tire = much better acceleration
HP at Tire = 200 (HP doesn't change)

and you could see here that it was way better to gear so that you always stay at or close to the peak of HP and that's what CVT cars do when you floor them, no matter what your speed is, you keep the engine revving at the peak of the HP, the Torque number is almost meaning here.

Max Torque number is important in normal street cars because it gives you a good indication of how flat the overall torque curve is which is good for street cars when you need to do a good quick maneuver at lower RPM without having to shift down to rev up the peak of HP. In racing you dont care much about low rpm Torque, all you need is HP and this is what gives you the acceleration you want, actually F1 Engines have much less Torque than you would expect and they get their HP mainly from Hi revving engine, of course they have very big gear ratios which means in the end Tq at tires is very hi.

I'm sorry but this pricelist has gotta be BS. For starters, the E92 M3 will have SMG IV, not SMG III, and the options were pretty basic US options for M5. The E92 M3 will have very different options, as it'll have very different M technology from the M5/M6. And according to my sources, it'll be closer to 450hp+ and 450Nm+ (from the largest BMW dealer in Scandinavia). But maybe it'll lose power in the US again due to extreme (and stupid) emissions control measures, like the E46 M3 did :(

Best regards,

Jussi

This is a very common thing to hear and it's very wrong too, ITS ALL ABOUT HP!!

HP is the power the engine generates and it relates to Tq by this simple equation:


Thanks goodness someone else gets it :D

Great looking car. You know I do find it funny to watch people pick apart any new car. Sub 5 second 0-60 is stupid fast, why would you need faster? What onramps do they have where you live? The m3 will feel incredible from the drivers seat, and just like it did for the m3 that went up against audi's turbocharged s4, it'll be a sellout. Partially because of branding, but partially because of the soul a bmw offers up. M3s feel amazing, and if this one can keep that m3 soul, who really gives a flying F what the numbers are.

Seriously I understand the whole nutflexing deal but after a while you people need to call it quits, hey did you know the new ford gt500 has 500hp? and suposivelly you can get another 150 with just a chip and pully

one more time JUST A CHIP AND PULLY

but you can bet your sorry ass if i have 50k to drop into a car its not going to be a ford.

hell 200hp is a lot to me you folks are nuts.

-Spargo

I like how everyone one is putting down the new M3 before it comes out,there is no way in hell that the 335 will be faster no way.On a different note everyone hated on the E46 M3 now everyone drools over them wait till the new M3 coms out everyone will reneg on there comments.

I like how everyone one is putting down the new M3 before it comes out,there is no way in hell that the 335 will be faster no way.On a different note everyone hated on the E46 M3 now everyone drools over them wait till the new M3 coms out everyone will reneg on there comments.

Agreed. And also about the pricelist, it bogus.

Compare the E46 330i to the E46M3. the difference will be the same beetween the 335i and the new M3. I can't wait for it.

Compare the E46 330i to the E46M3. the difference will be the same beetween the 335i and the new M3. I can't wait for it.


I think your analogy is incorrect though in this instance! ;)

The difference b/w a E90 330ci (or is it E92 330ci??) and E92 M3 WILL be huge.

The difference b/w the E90 330ci and the E92 335i IS huge now.

The difference b/w the E92 335i and the E92 M3 may not be as huge as you might think. I think E92 M3 will be better -- but, not A LOT. It might be hard to justify the price diff. b/w the 335i and E92 M3, unless of course you are being a brand snob and just want the ///M moniker.

ON PAPER, the E92 M3 appears to have better acceleration performance; but, from the dyno, the 335i is seriously under-rated. The E92 M3 might be under-rated as well -- but, typically, BMW has been correct with M3 SAE HP numbers.

Besides, if the new M3 is only .1-.2 seconds faster -- it becomes a driver's race. Heck, anything within .5 seconds of each other becomes a driver's race :stickoutt

Who cares -- both cars fit different niches ... 335i is great and M3 will be great. You'd have to have a small penis if you are worried about the 335i out-accelerating the M3 ...

....

or own a p-car :stickoutt

The difference b/w the E92 335i and the E92 M3 may not be as huge as you might think.

I expect the M3 to have about 25% better hp/lbs. Thats pretty big but not quite the 33% that the E46 gen had over teh regular car.

Man you people don't really think things through. Why would BMW ever put out an M model that didn't obliterate it little brother. I mean im tired of this argument, go search at www.m3post.com (http://www.m3post.com) the dedicated e92 m3 forum.

Man you people don't really think things through. Why would BMW ever put out an M model that didn't obliterate it little brother. I mean im tired of this argument, go search at www.m3post.com (http://www.m3post.com) the dedicated e92 m3 forum.


You don't get it.

The 335 being a turbo motor with OVER 300hp/trq from the factory is a whole new era for BMW. Don't think of the 335 as being what the e46 330 was to the M3. Think of it as a BRAND NEW model that would have fallen between the e46 330 and the M3. Kinda like Audi's A4, S4 and RS4. The 335 would be the S4 in that line-up.

It is essentially, BMW bringing power to the people, to the masses. The fact that it is TURBO power changes everything. EASY 400+ hp/trq with a grand in mods.

The M3 is NA and therefore limited to roughly 100hp per liter (ie 415hp) and decent trq. that will be enhanced by low diff gearing.

There will be TONS of 335's on the road. This, in part, will drive demand for the M3 among the snobs who want some exclusivity.

The M3 will be bought by ///M brand snobs and track-oriented people.

The M3 will be significantly quicker on a race track, but a slightly modded 335 will likely run with or beat it on the street, be much cheaper and ride better.

There will be TONS of 335's on the road. This, in part, will drive demand for the M3 among the snobs who want some exclusivity.

The M3 will be bought by ///M brand snobs and track-oriented people.


Yep, those that want the best handling and throttle response will still buy the M.

I don't get the ///M brand snob comment though. BMW has those for all their cars, the M is no diffrent.

I really understand why so many 335 guys want to rip on the new M3. Is it some fascination with turbos or something? I really don't get it.

Yep, those that want the best handling and throttle response will still buy the M.

I don't get the ///M brand snob comment though. BMW has those for all their cars, the M is no diffrent.

I really understand why so many 335 guys want to rip on the new M3. Is it some fascination with turbos or something? I really don't get it.

The M brand snob comment pertains to those who buy M cars simply because of the image and what they think owning an M car says about them, not because they can appreciate or tap the extra performance potential.

I don't know what you mean by "want to rip on the new M3"? The M3 is always a benchmark vehicle. EVERYBODY wants to favorably compare their coupe or sedan, regardless of make, to the latest M3.

The "fascination" w/ factory turbo power stems from the fact that BIG power increases are easily and cheaply available. This is new for BMW enthusiasts who are used to paying thousands for a few more top-end hp. For people who do not modify their cars, turbo power means little.

I HOPE BMW surprises all of us and comes out with a 450hp M3 that weighs 3,400 lbs. That's what will be needed to vanquish a properly modded 335.

I don't know why you keep throwing around the fact that you think it will be cheap to mod the 335i you are insane.The few quotes I have heard even on software have been in the 1800-2000 dollar range.I seriously doubt the owners of 99% of 335i being that they are upper aged adult men will both void there warranty for performance pay that high of a price to mod and will even care to for that matter.Its not like the 335i is so much cheaper than the new M3 that every teeny bopper will be riding them a round in a german version of fast and furious I have seen many people on here getting very close to 50,000 dollars for an optioned 335i now that is a ripoff.

I don't know why you keep throwing around the fact that you think it will be cheap to mod the 335i you are insane.The few quotes I have heard even on software have been in the 1800-2000 dollar range.I seriously doubt the owners of 99% of 335i being that they are upper aged adult men will both void there warranty for performance pay that high of a price to mod and will even care to for that matter.Its not like the 335i is so much cheaper than the new M3 that every teeny bopper will be riding them a round in a german version of fast and furious I have seen many people on here getting very close to 50,000 dollars for an optioned 335i now that is a ripoff.

...says the Dinan fanboy...

I don't know why you keep throwing around the fact that you think it will be cheap to mod the 335i you are insane.The few quotes I have heard even on software have been in the 1800-2000 dollar range.I seriously doubt the owners of 99% of 335i being that they are upper aged adult men will both void there warranty for performance pay that high of a price to mod and will even care to for that matter.Its not like the 335i is so much cheaper than the new M3 that every teeny bopper will be riding them a round in a german version of fast and furious I have seen many people on here getting very close to 50,000 dollars for an optioned 335i now that is a ripoff.

Check the Vishnu Performance thread on the 335 forum. $1,200 for plug and play SW that nets roughly 400 crank hp and 415 crank trq (from 2.2k rpm on up mind you). That is Corvette-like output and delivery. And this is just the first SW to hit the market. With competition, the prices will drop and the gains will increase.

The mere installation of a mod does not "void your warranty". :rolleyes

Everybody will not have aftermarket SW on their 335, but those who wanna race M3's will.;)

The M3 will be $75k out the door.

We will see 75k out the door you say you sir are a cross between a burro and a horse!There is no way it will be that much for a M3 maybe with every option plus some.

Well if you want sheer power just pick up a vette, those things are blazing fast for the price....but i would go with a 911 if i could manage it. BMW's are nice, but 911's are nicer.

It says you can get a 6-spd manual at no charge, anyone know if the standard manual has launch control?? I know the smg has it

My M3 w/ options comes out to about $65k before taxes & title. Out the door, I'm probably looking at $71k :eek3:

Yizzer.

The mere installation of a mod does not "void your warranty". :rolleyes


Increasing the bost well above stock should void your warranty. Also you care to place any bets how long the stock turbos will last at those levels? ;)

With the reports of the 335 shutting themselves down at the track after hard running due to heat soak I wouldn't get your hopes up about an extra 33% boost lasting long.

Increasing the bost well above stock should void your warranty. Also you care to place any bets how long the stock turbos will last at those levels? ;)

With the reports of the 335 shutting themselves down at the track after hard running due to heat soak I wouldn't get your hopes up about an extra 33% boost lasting long.

Do some research re warranty law here in the US. The quick and dirty is: the manufacturer has the burden of proving that the modification caused the product failure.

I never said the 335 made a fabulous track car. Its a daily driver. I suspect the turbo's will hold-up fine for that purpose and the periodic street romp, even running higher boost. We're talking BMW, not Audi, here.

Without question, anybody who wants to go beat on a turbo car (with a few exceptions), especially one with the boost turned-up, at the track needs to beef-up the cooling system, turbo's, etc.

That being said, you will see a large number of aftermarket tuners (many who are new to the BMW world, but experienced FI tuners like Vishnu) throwing parts at the 335 in an effort to make it track-worthy with big power. That track-worthiness will come later down the line with much R&D and at a dear price, but still less than the 20k price differential of the 335/M3. Plan on seeing more than a few 500hp 335 track monsters down the road.

Do some research re warranty law here in the US. The quick and dirty is: the manufacturer has the burden of proving that the modification caused the product failure.
...
That track-worthiness will come later down the line with much R&D and at a dear price, but still less than the 20k price differential of the 335/M3. Plan on seeing more than a few 500hp 335 track monsters down the road.

So much bias, so little reason.

BMW isn't legally required to warranty your engine if you start playing around with it. Simple as that.

The base price diffrence isn't going to be 20K unless you are one of the people that lines up to pay over msrp.

At to making a track worthy 335. I am sure its doable. But it won't be cheap or easy. I have watched people throw money at other turbo cars that are known to be a better starting point and have all sorts of reliability issues. I wouldn't get your hopes up on 335 track cars. When someone does build a serious one it will end up costing more than the M3 does.

BTW: I know of a few E46 track cars making 400+ hp staying NA. I expect to see 500+ out of the new one. This isn't as cut and dried as you pretend.

So much bias, so little reason.

BMW isn't legally required to warranty your engine if you start playing around with it. Simple as that.

The base price diffrence isn't going to be 20K unless you are one of the people that lines up to pay over msrp.

At to making a track worthy 335. I am sure its doable. But it won't be cheap or easy. I have watched people throw money at other turbo cars that are known to be a better starting point and have all sorts of reliability issues. I wouldn't get your hopes up on 335 track cars. When someone does build a serious one it will end up costing more than the M3 does.

BTW: I know of a few E46 track cars making 400+ hp staying NA. I expect to see 500+ out of the new one. This isn't as cut and dried as you pretend.


Bias? I have none. I am a track rat M3 driver.;)

However, as a daily driven street-oriented car, the 335 represents a better value than any M3. And that with SW, it will likely hang with or beat the new M3 in a straight line. This is pretty obvious, and is all i've ever said.

Your attempt to argue that extracting extra power out of a NA BMW Motorsport motor is just as cost-effective as getting more juice from a mildly-tuned BMW FI motor really underscores that you are kinda clueless . . .

Any idea how much a 400hp NA S54 costs?:confused About $20k.
Meanwhile the 335's motor will make 400hp with a single $1K mod.

Laterz

Your attempt to argue that extracting extra power out of a NA BMW Motorsport motor is just as cost-effective as getting more juice from a mildly-tuned BMW FI motor really underscores that you are kinda clueless . . .


I never said it was cheap. What I was trying to say is if you want reliable power from the 335 its not going to be cheap and you are likely to end up spending more than the diffrence in $$ between the cars to get it.

All the info I have indicates the stock turbos will max out short of a stock M3. Once you have to replace them you are talking seriout money.

We will see 75k out the door you say you sir are a cross between a burro and a horse!There is no way it will be that much for a M3 maybe with every option plus some.

Maybe not $75K out the door; but, figure on $68K-72K out the door (taxes, etc.). Getting the car optioned I want puts it about $65K price with $71-72K out the door. So, fairly close to the $75K price :(

Maybe not $75K out the door; but, figure on $68K-72K out the door (taxes, etc.). Getting the car optioned I want puts it about $65K price with $71-72K out the door. So, fairly close to the $75K price

What pricing are you basing this on? The rumored price threads that popped up that are bogus??

$65K for an optioned convert if they build one....

$61K for an optioned out Coupe

$50K base ....Just hoping...These are my guesses

Jason

I saw an M Roadster in a showroom the other day with a sticker of over $60k . . . and you think an optioned M3 will go for only a few grand more?

OK.:rolleyes

Thats what we call a markup, senior.

I cannot believe how the M3 prices are just going through the roof. The idea of paying $65k-$70k for a 3-series BMW is just retarded. I am a huge M3 fan, and a previous owner, but that price is getting seriously out of control. :(

I saw an M Roadster in a showroom the other day with a sticker of over $60k . . . and you think an optioned M3 will go for only a few grand more?

OK.



yeah thats a nice markup... I guess we will all see what pricing will be soon enough!

Jason

The mcoupe prices are not marked-up, e.g., $10K over list price. BMW's are really getting that expensive now.

Don't get me wrong, the M3 is a great car -- but, it's a lot of money to spend when you can pick up a nice used E46 M3 that's CPO'd and has the extended maintenance (think 2003-2005 models) for $38-48K, and pocket the $20K difference. The E36 to the E46 was a HUGE upgrade -- but, only b/c we never got the Euro E36. To them, the upgrade was not that great. I think in this case, the upgrade may not warrant the high cost.

The V8 is cool and all; but, in reality -- the E46 M3 is plenty fast for 99% of people out there. Heck - an E36 M3 is plenty fast IMO. Unless, you really need that power to merge onto a highway :stickoutt

get out of here.

The E92 is going to blow your mind away. www.m3post.com (http://www.m3post.com) for details. Do a search on what you want to know.

Yes, the E92 is going to be crazy...I just hope not crazy priced.

If a E92 M is going to come at a huge premium over what the E46 M cost then it only affirms my position that the 335 is the replacement, per say, for the E46 M. I am finally in position that in a year I can afford a $55-60K car but if the new M is in the 65-70K range then I have a choice of buying a E46 M or a 335. Of course in a year from now any E46 M I buy is going to be used so if I want a new car it will have to be a 335... that is if I want a BMW, which I do.

Looks like it might be the 335 with M-sport package...whenever that comes..

Jason

I never said it was cheap. What I was trying to say is if you want reliable power from the 335 its not going to be cheap and you are likely to end up spending more than the diffrence in $$ between the cars to get it.

All the info I have indicates the stock turbos will max out short of a stock M3. Once you have to replace them you are talking seriout money.

I am sure glad someone eventually pointed out that the price "list" as posted is completely bogus. Maybe not totally off base but not real.

OK I know a we are all a bit off topic but here goes...

MD: You did waffle a bit on the "track capable" point. At one point you say "I never said the 335 made a fabulous track car" but in the same post you also say "Plan on seeing more than a few 500hp 335 track monsters down the road". This is a bit inconsistent. Of course you can easily get a 335i as fast as an E46 M3 or faster in a drag with not much money but what makes a track car is a lot more than hp (I'm sure you know this but it just does not sound like it from your posts). To make a 335i anywhere close to a M3 in the handling dept. (E46 or E90 for that matter) you will spend more than the price difference between 335i and E90 M3 and still proabaly not equal it in handling. Most importantly (and expensive) you will need a LSD. You would not want to be doing 500hp "one wheel wonder" burnouts out of corners would you? Next add: brakes, springs, tires, shocks, sway bars, a body kit with real aerodynamic benefits, a beefed up clutch and intercooler and SMG (whoops that would be almost impossible without changing the whole engine management system...). Even with this small fortune you would not match the M3s steering feel nor quickness and you would not have the same low unsprung weight.

You also totally loose on the "cost effective" jab. Enigma never said that particular strategy was cheap, just that you can do it.

I guess I partially side with you on your point that as a daily driven street-oriented car, the 335 represents a better value than any M3. If you prize comfort way over handling and will not track at all perhaps the 335i is a better value than an E90 M3 but probably not a better value over a still under warranty E46 M3. The E46 M3 wins in 0-60 and handling. Granted the 335i does win in some speed contests that value real low rpm torque...

The E46 M3 wins in 0-60 and handling. Granted the 335i does win in some speed contests that value real low rpm torque...

yeah like that 30 to 80mph in 6th gear trial.
335i is a great street car, as far as track goes... if it's a pure question of money, you're much better off with an E46 M3 still under warranty, or for that matter, an Evo.

E92 M3 it is for me - 4 door. I might be able to transfer the aftermarket Alpine nav from my E46. As someone else said, at that price point there are many other options to consider, but there's just something bogus in my mind with a 2-seater as your only car, so as much as I'd like a 911 turbo, it's just not going to cut it. Beautiful beast, though.

different case to me, I have a SUV for daily drive and haul stuffs :cool



that's a MAJOR plus for BMW!!

Might as well subtract $1500-2000 from the sale price b/c that's what you're saving over the 4 years. Or just add that $2k to the competitions price. It's a HUGE plus.

im jus glad the prices on the E46 are gonna drop when this baby comes out. Ive been waiting for my M3 forever!!!!

Has anyone mentioned the dealer added mark up. When the E46 M3 came out most dealers added anywhere from $10-$20K to the price of the car. I think the next M3 could easily cost $80-$90k at least initially.

This is a reply to the statement made by Mad dog 20/20. I've been a factory rep for in the car business for more almost 10 years. I have voided the warranty on a lot of cars due to engine mods and track use. The burden of proof is on you the customer to prove that your modification didn't cause the failure. If you crank the boost on your 335 and the factory finds out they are within their rights to void your warranty. And please don't try and go the Magnusson/Moss route that ain't going to cut it.

im suprised its not going to cost 64-68k to go directly against the Audi Rs4. i really hope its better than the rs4, because as much as i like that car, the m3 has to be better.

This is a reply to the statement made by Mad dog 20/20. I've been a factory rep for in the car business for more almost 10 years. I have voided the warranty on a lot of cars due to engine mods and track use. The burden of proof is on you the customer to prove that your modification didn't cause the failure. If you crank the boost on your 335 and the factory finds out they are within their rights to void your warranty. And please don't try and go the Magnusson/Moss route that ain't going to cut it.

SEMA Lawyers FTW!!!

what would you guess a Dinan upgrade for the 335i coupe would be? M3 might be a deal for what you would have to spend to squeeze more out of the 335i under the hood, suspension, exhaust, CPU, etc

what would you guess a Dinan upgrade for the 335i coupe would be? M3 might be a deal for what you would have to spend to squeeze more out of the 335i under the hood, suspension, exhaust, CPU, etc

1st off, Dinan is a ripoff 99% of the time. Yeah yeah warranty warranty whatever. I've seen just as many Dinan cars get screwed with warranty claims as I have outrageously modded non-dinan cars. So why pay an extra 30% for dinan products?

Obviously, you don't have much expierence in upgrading turbo cars. Making power is CHEAP. With the $10-15k you'll save by getting a 335, It shouldn't take more than $4-7k to make a 335 equal to the new M's 400hp. My guess is with ECU software and a 3 - 3.5 inch straight through exhaust will probably have the 335 very close to 400 hp. Even if the software costs you a grand, you can have a complete exhaust fabbed up at your local muffler shop for $400-700. And I think that's maybe even high. My buddy had a system like that made for his TT supra only 4 in. in diameter and it only cost him $350 at midas. That's not bad for a complete turbo back exhaust system. And you've got lots of $$$ left over still. Make your 335i into a M3 body clone and there's still money left over.

I honestly think that BMW fell short with the power on the new M3. They should have gotten 30-50 extra ponies out of that v8 to really differentiate the performance over the 335. I guess I won't really know for sure until I drive one myself, but it better be AMAZING when I do to justify the cost.

This is a reply to the statement made by Mad dog 20/20. I've been a factory rep for in the car business for more almost 10 years. I have voided the warranty on a lot of cars due to engine mods and track use. The burden of proof is on you the customer to prove that your modification didn't cause the failure. If you crank the boost on your 335 and the factory finds out they are within their rights to void your warranty. And please don't try and go the Magnusson/Moss route that ain't going to cut it.

I mean this in all seriousness, how can you just throw out the Moss / Magnusson law? It is in place to prevent manufacturers from just broad stroke voiding of warranties without just cause.

I mean this in all seriousness, how can you just throw out the Moss / Magnusson law? It is in place to prevent manufacturers from just broad stroke voiding of warranties without just cause.

Maybe he's "that guy" everyone talks about who lurkes in these forums and mysteriously voids bf.c member warranties.

Hate to break it to you M3 lovers but the 335I will be faster at least until they start making FI kits for the M3. The RS4/R8 V8 is rated at 420 crank but only puts down 338. You can chip the 335I to 340 without any other mods for about $1300. My 335 Cost me 48K with roughly 7K in options. The M3 is priced well but they should've kept the 335I Non Aspirated. They made it too good. There are turbo replacements that give you over 400rwhp. Add a LSD and you have all the power you'll ever need for 10K less than a similarly priced M3 and it'll be slower. If I were spending 60K on a car I would get the 335I upgrade the turbo's, throw an LSD and body kit on it change the exhaust and it'll look like an M3 and be faster.

335I can be a better M than the M3 just because it isn't Turbocharged. All the weight savings can be gained in the aftermarket. Breaks and springs aren't that expensive and the 335I already comes with sport suspension. The M3 is not a supercar. There's still going to be body roll... I think you guys are making the car into something it isn't. Test drive the new M if you get a chance then try the 335I coupe and see how you feel afterwards. I think a lot of you guys will be disappointed by the difference. But with all that yes 53K isn't that bad... I expect it to be more. But I would go the 335I route and mod it to my liking as a daily driver.

^ Hey man I love the 335I and yes, it can probably achieve M3 performance. But I dont care... I will take my performance right out of the box

Jason

Options alone is probably 15K plus, then mods another 15K Plus...form a base of 70K with a fully loaded package, we are looking at an approx. 85k machine...

Ill take it...:-)

Hate to break it to you M3 lovers but the 335I will be faster at least until they start making FI kits for the M3. The RS4/R8 V8 is rated at 420 crank but only puts down 338. You can chip the 335I to 340 without any other mods for about $1300. My 335 Cost me 48K with roughly 7K in options. The M3 is priced well but they should've kept the 335I Non Aspirated. They made it too good. There are turbo replacements that give you over 400rwhp. Add a LSD and you have all the power you'll ever need for 10K less than a similarly priced M3 and it'll be slower. If I were spending 60K on a car I would get the 335I upgrade the turbo's, throw an LSD and body kit on it change the exhaust and it'll look like an M3 and be faster.



335I can be a better M than the M3 just because it isn't Turbocharged. All the weight savings can be gained in the aftermarket. Breaks and springs aren't that expensive and the 335I already comes with sport suspension. The M3 is not a supercar. There's still going to be body roll... I think you guys are making the car into something it isn't. Test drive the new M if you get a chance then try the 335I coupe and see how you feel afterwards. I think a lot of you guys will be disappointed by the difference. But with all that yes 53K isn't that bad... I expect it to be more. But I would go the 335I route and mod it to my liking as a daily driver.

Ahhh...a lot of very sure opinions comparing the 335I against a car nobody has tested....

I don't lurke on forums voiding peoples warranties. I don't work for BMW. But if I'm at a track day or HPDE and you're driving a product for the company that I work for I will void your warranty. Why should any manufacturer pay for you're racing exploits. I've seen it too many times. People break cars racing then coming crying to the manufacturer. Then if you don't cover repairs under warranty then all of a sudden your product is crap. On this very post guys talk about spending large sums of cash to modify an 335i. I wonder if the engine blows up if they would be willing to spend money to fix it. Some might but other will be the first to run to the factory and start crying and saying the product is crap. I've had guys get in my face stating that I cannot prove that the stuff on his car makes any additional power. I google the guys name and he's on the internet bragging about the fact that his car makes 400whp with pictures. He has his own website with him drag racing the car. Just two weeks ago I ask a customer for oil change receipts. His engine had a rod knock. He gives me copies of his credit car statement (stupid). On his credit card state he has several charges made at THUNDER HILL RACE WAY. I didn't restrict his warranty because of it. However, after find the Piggyback ECU behind the glove box I denied his warranty claim. Give me the name of any manufacturer that would have covered that repair.

why do people compare the M3 to the 335? a 335 isn't an ///M. it's a poor version for those who cannot buy an M3.

For example :

Subaru STi vs Dodge Neon SRT4?(w/e it's called)

almost 10-15k difference ehh? speedwise, almost the same.

Wrong, they're two different cars for two different purposes. The 3 Series is a mid luxury car that's meant for appearance and casual to hard commuting. The M cars are meant to be Track cars for everyday use. Don't forget the M cars are derived from the normal BMW series, so they are just upgrade versions of the series they represent. They are all good cars.... and I've been one to take the side of the 335I, I do think it is capable of being faster than the NA M3 but on a track it will never win. For the Price it's a good value I think. 54K for a supped up 3 series when the 335I starts at 40K really is a great deal when you think of the body kit, the additional HP even though it isn't as potent as the TT engine, the brakes and suspension. If you want a sports car the M is the car to get... the only thing is that that's all it is... it is going to suffer when it comes to ride comfort. But I think a lot of the arguements have some validity to them... I think the M will sell well but the difference between the cars has never been smaller.

I don't lurke on forums voiding peoples warranties. I don't work for BMW. But if I'm at a track day or HPDE and you're driving a product for the company that I work for I will void your warranty. Why should any manufacturer pay for you're racing exploits. I've seen it too many times. People break cars racing then coming crying to the manufacturer. Then if you don't cover repairs under warranty then all of a sudden your product is crap. On this very post guys talk about spending large sums of cash to modify an 335i. I wonder if the engine blows up if they would be willing to spend money to fix it. Some might but other will be the first to run to the factory and start crying and saying the product is crap. I've had guys get in my face stating that I cannot prove that the stuff on his car makes any additional power. I google the guys name and he's on the internet bragging about the fact that his car makes 400whp with pictures. He has his own website with him drag racing the car. Just two weeks ago I ask a customer for oil change receipts. His engine had a rod knock. He gives me copies of his credit car statement (stupid). On his credit card state he has several charges made at THUNDER HILL RACE WAY. I didn't restrict his warranty because of it. However, after find the Piggyback ECU behind the glove box I denied his warranty claim. Give me the name of any manufacturer that would have covered that repair.


Uh, ok. So tell me, what's the difference between a 30 min HPDE session and someone attacking their local mountain pass? Would you would deny a warranty if you saw someone shifting at red line on the street? I can understand a denial if, for example, the boost is raised. But not all modifications fall into this arena, and just because one does an HPDE doesn't mean they are racing door handle to door handle.

Bravado on a blog is hardly evidence of abuse.

And, sometimes failures do occur because the design is crap. It's common practice these days to dampen or make useless temp and oil press gauges. If a gauge says everything is ok (when it's NOT), who is responsible for the failure?

-Dave

When was going to the track with a stock car something that would void your warranty?

And, don't the 335's overheat at the track?

I keep looking at the 335i when I go to the dealer and I just can't seem to get excited over the car. I saw one sitting next to an E46 M3 Performance Package and that car was just so much more muscular and performance looking than the 335i coupe. They seem somewhat cheap inside to me and not very upscale. Plus just about everyone they had at the dealer was pushing 50k. Their is always a big plus to NA HP. Something tells me this M3 will be a much better performer than the early numbers bear out.

I don't lurke on forums voiding peoples warranties. I don't work for BMW. But if I'm at a track day or HPDE and you're driving a product for the company that I work for I will void your warranty. Why should any manufacturer pay for you're racing exploits. I've seen it too many times. People break cars racing then coming crying to the manufacturer. Then if you don't cover repairs under warranty then all of a sudden your product is crap. On this very post guys talk about spending large sums of cash to modify an 335i. I wonder if the engine blows up if they would be willing to spend money to fix it. Some might but other will be the first to run to the factory and start crying and saying the product is crap. I've had guys get in my face stating that I cannot prove that the stuff on his car makes any additional power. I google the guys name and he's on the internet bragging about the fact that his car makes 400whp with pictures. He has his own website with him drag racing the car. Just two weeks ago I ask a customer for oil change receipts. His engine had a rod knock. He gives me copies of his credit car statement (stupid). On his credit card state he has several charges made at THUNDER HILL RACE WAY. I didn't restrict his warranty because of it. However, after find the Piggyback ECU behind the glove box I denied his warranty claim. Give me the name of any manufacturer that would have covered that repair.

If you actually deny warranty claims for that sort of thing you're being a dick. Just look the other way like everyone else does. There's a limit of course, but there's no way you can tell me that his piggyback caused that noise or that you'd ever get in trouble for submitting the claim. You and I both know it would go through and get paid without question. Chances are that noise would have happened regardless unless your product is intentionally under-engineered. Every manufacturer that's worth a damn builds their product to stand up to way more stresses than what will ever possibly be seen on the road. If your product can't take anywhere from a 10-50hp increase, it's crap.

The saying really is true, crappy cars do come with crappy service. Especially at your dealer...

the new ///m is gonna be pricey :(

Options alone is probably 15K plus, then mods another 15K Plus...form a base of 70K with a fully loaded package, we are looking at an approx. 85k machine...

Ill take it...:-)

Loaded M5's are topping out at $93k in my market, so I don't think so. I do think that if the new M3 pushes $70k (which it appears it will) BMW is going to find sales dissapointing. I'm an economist, so I did a little analysis of e46 M3 pricing based on the differential between the e39 M5 v. 540 in 2005 and in my opinion (and the opinion of my bank) 2005-2006 M3's are about
$5k-$7k "overpriced" (meaning the Kelly value is "too high"). What I mean by that is that they SHOULD fall by about that much in price within the next six months. But if the market expected that to happen, it SHOULD happen right now. Conclusion: BMW owners are not enthusiastically awaiting the new
M3, and the market for the e46's will remain hot. BMW might have priced themselves about $5k above their potential market for 3 series M Cars.

http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/6474/2966535080101466985S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2966535080101466985reBFyn)

To the people who want to be first, they will likely pay $70,000 so they have bragging rights! Who cares? I'd rather wait since the MSRP is around $ 55,000.

When the E46M3 came out, people where putting out as much as $ 60,000 to be first on line and dealers will take your money!

Now you can get them so cheap as low as $ 25,000

The 335i may become faster with the available mods, but an M is an M overall...and looks meaner, and will handle better

One last, 335i owners will drool at the new M3:)

It's amazing that people state that I'm a dick for voiding warranties. Go buy a 335i. Install a procede and then take it to the dealership and see what happens. Clearly if you're racing that will not affect the warranty on your door handle that would be stupid. Go buy a Porsche GT3 and go do a track day. See if Porsche will cover the warranty on your engine, transmission or clutch. You cannot compare 30 minutes even 20 minutes on a track to any kind of street driving that you might. You have to pay to play. It's amazing that you guys completely ignored the example that I gave. MOSE121 you're an idiot any car can handle 10 to 15hp. Go buy a new appliance and screw with it and when it breaks see if the manufacture will cover it. Why should a car be any diff. I've modified cars and have always taken responsibility. If you bought a car you can do with it whatever you want. However, if you modify the car and it breaks do come crying. I've been in the auto business 10 years go modify and new vehicle and see if it will covered by warranty.

FYI, if your car gets wrecked while racing in a track - good luck in having your insurance pay for it:)

It's amazing that people state that I'm a dick for voiding warranties. Go buy a 335i. Install a procede and then take it to the dealership and see what happens. Clearly if you're racing that will not affect the warranty on your door handle that would be stupid. Go buy a Porsche GT3 and go do a track day. See if Porsche will cover the warranty on your engine, transmission or clutch. You cannot compare 30 minutes even 20 minutes on a track to any kind of street driving that you might. You have to pay to play. It's amazing that you guys completely ignored the example that I gave. MOSE121 you're an idiot any car can handle 10 to 15hp. Go buy a new appliance and screw with it and when it breaks see if the manufacture will cover it. Why should a car be any diff. I've modified cars and have always taken responsibility. If you bought a car you can do with it whatever you want. However, if you modify the car and it breaks do come crying. I've been in the auto business 10 years go modify and new vehicle and see if it will covered by warranty.
There is a fine line here that different parties will interpret differently. Both BMW an Porsche extol the virtues of their products on the race track. If I go to a dirvers ed session in my unmodified M3, I believe it is not that more stringent than hard street driving might be, and there is no reason for denial of warranty if not subjected to "abuse" (eg, overrev, etc.). Now, if I start modding the motor it gets more gray. I would not think a CAI system would be cause for concern, but, obviously, any programming mods are suspect.

I'm sure people try to pull sh*t all the time and claim warranty when there are other factors, and I have no problem with the manufacturer being firm. However, there are those gray areas, like just because you took out the CDV should you be denied when the VANOS fails?

For that price I'll take a C6 Z06. Thanks.

Greg W/ Oregon lets do a test. Lets call BMW & Porsche. Tell BMW that you have an M3 and you're going to do a Track Day. Then call Porsche and tell them you have a GT3 RS and you're going to do a Track Day. Ask, the customer relations representative what that will do to you're warranty. You said, they extol the virtues of the cars on the Track. Let's see what they say. You guys call me a dick for voiding warranties. You guys talk a good game but you guys would be the first to call the manufacturer stating their product is a piece of shit when you caused damage to it. It guys like you why Europeans laugh at us. Because you feel you should have your CAKE and Eat it too. I would bet money that the majority of people on this board if they had a brand new M3 and they took it to the track and something happened their first instinct would be to take it to the dealership then call the manufacturer. If the manufacturer declined you're warranty then you take them to court. You guys are all the same want to PLAY but don't want to PAY. Guys will spend thousand modding their cars but when it breaks they are unwilling to spend any money and if they within warranty will go crying to the Manufacturer. When the Evo and STi first came out there was a big issue about warranties and track day/auto x. One the guys in the article had a Porsche and he used it to auto x. Porsche voided his warranty.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see regarding the E92 M3's performance. I have some experience with the new 335's, and it certainly is an impressive non-M BMW. Even if they are relatively close in performance, I'm sure the M3 won't disappoint.

As far as price, I would be shocked to see the new M3's at dealerships for less than 70 on the sticker. As others have said, in late 2006, I saw E46 M3's (coupes) for 62-63K.

It's amazing that people state that I'm a dick for voiding warranties. Go buy a 335i. Install a procede and then take it to the dealership and see what happens. Clearly if you're racing that will not affect the warranty on your door handle that would be stupid. Go buy a Porsche GT3 and go do a track day. See if Porsche will cover the warranty on your engine, transmission or clutch. You cannot compare 30 minutes even 20 minutes on a track to any kind of street driving that you might. You have to pay to play. It's amazing that you guys completely ignored the example that I gave. MOSE121 you're an idiot any car can handle 10 to 15hp. Go buy a new appliance and screw with it and when it breaks see if the manufacture will cover it. Why should a car be any diff. I've modified cars and have always taken responsibility. If you bought a car you can do with it whatever you want. However, if you modify the car and it breaks do come crying. I've been in the auto business 10 years go modify and new vehicle and see if it will covered by warranty.

I've gone on uphill runs through the mountain that were harder on my engine than 20 minute track day sessions. And I can objectively say this based on temp gauge readings, pad wear, and oil consumption.

Going uphill at WOT for over an hour when it's over 100 outside was significantly harder on oil temps and pad wear than 20 minute sessions at buttonwillow when it was 65.

Good luck busting me for warranty claims. I'll be sure to cover the VIN and remove my plates for you ;) There are some people who over-rev, go off track, and generally go out of control at DE's. I'd deny their warranty claims too. But quite a few people at DE's never drive their cars in a manner that would exceed any design specs that couldn't already be exceeded on public roads. Voiding claims at auto-x's? That's just obscene.

When you're talking about people who throw rods, bend valves, or boost their motors to 20Psi, I can see where your coming from. But the average guy out at a DE isn't going to be doing anything that should cause the car to fail. You could bend valves on the street just as easily on the track.

My tracked engine is probably in better mechanical condition than the average motor - the one that's run at WOT before proper oil warmup by a morning commuter in a hurry, or that actually has to wait 15k miles for the "official" BMW oil change interval. Give me a break. :rolleyes

Greg W/ Oregon lets do a test. Lets call BMW & Porsche. Tell BMW that you have an M3 and you're going to do a Track Day. Then call Porsche and tell them you have a GT3 RS and you're going to do a Track Day. Ask, the customer relations representative what that will do to you're warranty. You said, they extol the virtues of the cars on the Track. Let's see what they say. You guys call me a dick for voiding warranties. You guys talk a good game but you guys would be the first to call the manufacturer stating their product is a piece of shit when you caused damage to it. It guys like you why Europeans laugh at us. Because you feel you should have your CAKE and Eat it too. I would bet money that the majority of people on this board if they had a brand new M3 and they took it to the track and something happened their first instinct would be to take it to the dealership then call the manufacturer. If the manufacturer declined you're warranty then you take them to court. You guys are all the same want to PLAY but don't want to PAY. Guys will spend thousand modding their cars but when it breaks they are unwilling to spend any money and if they within warranty will go crying to the Manufacturer. When the Evo and STi first came out there was a big issue about warranties and track day/auto x. One the guys in the article had a Porsche and he used it to auto x. Porsche voided his warranty.
You guys...You guys...Who the hell is you guys? Your post if full of generalizations and it also comes across like you hate Americans. So if you find someone modding a car in the dealership you work at you will snitch on them? Why be surprised that SOME people will call you a dick then?

Greg W/ Oregon lets do a test. Lets call BMW & Porsche. Tell BMW that you have an M3 and you're going to do a Track Day. Then call Porsche and tell them you have a GT3 RS and you're going to do a Track Day. Ask, the customer relations representative what that will do to you're warranty.

My MZ4 Coupe came with a brochure that details PREPARATION for track use. BMW does not explicitly prohibit the use of the vehicle on track. The Nurburgring in Germany is considered a track, yet it is also a "public road." Do you expect BMW to cut your warranty short in Germany if you choose to go on a "public road?"

Maybe Porsche specifically prohibits their customers from tracking their car. BMW on the other hand, actually encourages their customers.

I've brought my cars to BMW for maintenance and warranty claims and all my service advisers are all well aware of the fact I track all my BMWs heavily. None of them has ever even batted an eyelash when it comes to warranty work. The ONLY thing that was even remotely related, was that my brakes were worn down, and they even replaced that under warranty. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Now, if I were to money-shift on the track, would I expect BMW to cover that? No.

It's amazing that you guys completely ignored the example that I gave.

We didn't ignore it at all. It actually justified part of what we're saying. You were actively seeking information on the internet about the car instead of just doing your job, then you voided his warranty...if you even have the power to actually do so. You didn't have to go and search out information on the car outside of the resources provided to you by the dealer/manufacturer. Besides, are you allowed to be on the internet for non work related activities? Relax man, seriously. No one is going to knock on your door wearing an all black suit saying, "Mr. _____, we have some questions for you about some shifty warranty claims you submitted. Come with us please." It just doesn't happen. I've worked for several different manufacturers and I've only seen 2 cases of warranties being totally voided due to modifications. One of those cars had the frame chopped to accomafate an air suspension. The other was another story, but I'm not allowed to talk about it openly. Many of the companies I have worked for actually have manufacturer sponsored "bring your car to the track and really expierence it" days. One of which you specifically called out earlier as not honoring warranty claims after track use. I know for a fact they will to a reasonable degree. It's usually the dealer just being shifty and trying to collect CP instead of WP whenever they can. This is usually an issue for domestic's since A) their warranties suck to begin with, and B) they don't pay shit for warr. work.


MOSE121 you're an idiot any car can handle 10 to 15hp. Go buy a new appliance and screw with it and when it breaks see if the manufacture will cover it.

Thanks for your opinion, really. It means so much to me. Just so happens BMW is coming out with their own line of performance products of which I have an advance pre-release catalog. Many mods are going to be offered that will bump horsepower by much more than 15 hp on stock internals. They are even including internal motor mods like more aggressive crankshafts/valvetrain components that are shown to give much more than a 15 hp increase. Interesting how they're doing that without voiding their own warranties. Not to mention their current relationship with DINAN, who can hardly be considered a fault free performance company. Other manufacturers, like the aformentioned Porsche (btw it's pronounced Porsch-a, not Porsche :stickoutt ) have offered power packages here in the states, and have really crazy cars in other parts of the world as well. Take the Alpina BMW's for example. They make some crazy stuff and it's still a BMW warranty.

So I'll rephrase...

Many companies (but not your shady company) do make their products well enough to withstand power increases way above 15 hp. You don't build something just good enough to meet your production specs. You build it to exceed the prod. specs so it's more reliable when operated within the specs for a long period of time.

You don't build a motor that will redline at 7000 rpm, but it explodes at 7100 RPM.

You don't produce a tire to be good to a certain speed, then have a critical deconstruction speed 1 MPH over your spec.

You don't build a table that will hold 40 lbs., but then collapses at 41 lbs..


...if you modify the car and it breaks do come crying. I've been in the auto business 10 years go modify and new vehicle and see if it will covered by warranty.

Stop working @ domestic dealers. They suck. That's my advise.

Greg W/ Oregon lets do a test. Lets call BMW & Porsche. Tell BMW that you have an M3 and you're going to do a Track Day. Then call Porsche and tell them you have a GT3 RS and you're going to do a Track Day. Ask, the customer relations representative what that will do to you're warranty. You said, they extol the virtues of the cars on the Track. Let's see what they say. You guys call me a dick for voiding warranties. You guys talk a good game but you guys would be the first to call the manufacturer stating their product is a piece of shit when you caused damage to it.
Uhh, where in my manufacturer's warranty does it state I cannot drive on a race track? I have read my "Service and Warranty Information" cover to cover and I do not see any such exclusion. Not even a racing exclusion. There is the out clause, "The decision to repair or replace said part(s) is solely the perogative of BMW NA." Hey, I'm being a good guy here. I agree modding a motor and then expecting BMW to cover everything is not reasonable, and I would not expect that.

It guys like you why Europeans laugh at us. Because you feel you should have your CAKE and Eat it too. I would bet money that the majority of people on this board if they had a brand new M3 and they took it to the track and something happened their first instinct would be to take it to the dealership then call the manufacturer. If the manufacturer declined you're warranty then you take them to court.want to PLAY but don't want to PAY. Guys will spend thousand modding their cars but when it breaks they are unwilling to spend any money and if they within warranty will go crying to the Manufacturer. When the Evo and STi first came out there was a big issue about warranties and track day/auto x. One the guys in the article had a Porsche and he used it to auto x. Porsche voided his warranty.
Again, where in the warranty does it say you cannot drive spiritedly. Good grief, an autocross is not that hard on a car unless you overrev, which is clearly abuse. I expect my M3 to stand up to hard street driving and mild track duty (dirver's school); that's what it's advertised for. I know it's not a race car, and if I modify the diff, electronics, or many other things I'm pretty much taking a risk. I understand that. I do not believe," You guys are all the same." There are many that would try to get away from responsibility, but how you can lump everyone on this forum into that category, I do not understand.