Seems like the M3's are getting heavier and heavier. The 335 turbo comes in fat (and not phat) at 3571 lbs. I assume the M3 will be in the same if not (as it is usually) heavier. This sucks. I didn't "upgrade" to the E46M3 due to the added weight. You can really feel the difference. Sure, the hp is much higher, but the driving dynamics is worse. The euro E36M3 with 321hp was actually faster thru the Nurburgring than the standard E46M3 (non comp package and not the CSL) with 340hp!! As purists have always said, the E30M3 is still the best handling of all the M3's. I was willing to compromise with my E36M3 for a little bit more luxury at 3175 lbs (with me in it!). But 3400-3500 lbs is just too FAT. Now getting closer to 3600 lbs...we're starting to get into the old Mitsu 3000GT VR4 aka Dodge Stealth weight territory...

As I've dumped my Z4 3.0i for a Boxster S for the driving dynamics, I feel like BMW is pushing me to go with the *much* lighter 911. It looks better, too. It doesn't look like some riced up Honda with expensive badging. Heck, have any of you guys seen the new Acura's? They look like they should wear the BMW badge! Nice classic, mature, elegant looks. I was never a Bangle Basher. But the 7 series STILL looks FUGLY to me. The Mercedes has always had that real nice classic elegant look. The Audi's also have that great look. The latest BMW's, however, have that riced Japanese car look.

So needless to say, I'm disappointed. I guess I'm aiming higher and shooting for the Aston Martin if not the Porsche.

How do you know for certain that BMW won't employ light weight components to keep the E92 M3 weight down? Do you work for BMW AG?

And before you go buy the "much lighter" 911, just be aware that Porsche do not publish their "curb weight" like any other manufacturers. BMW's curb weight, or the DIN weight, is car plus full tank of gas plus 1 75kg driver plus 15 kg of luggage, the standard EU specifications. That's ~250-300lbs HIGHER than Porsche's curb weight claims. To get equivalent weight of any Porsche you must add at least 200 lbs.

Porsche doesn't play by other's gentlemen's agreement, like electronically limiting their cars at 155mph (Audi, BMW and Merc are all sick and tired of it and are planning on ditching the self governed speed limiter) or reporting HP or weight of their vehicles per SAE or DIN standards.

shouldn't this be in the general discussion area?

i think the looks are fine. :dunno bmw does great work with their cars.

-mike

How do you know for certain that BMW won't employ light weight components to keep the E92 M3 weight down?

You're right...I don't know this for certain. But if I were a betting man and look at the trend, the new M3's weight will not be far from the coupes. The E36M3 was in the same ballpark (but heavier) as the standard E36. The E46M3 was a bit heavier than the standard E46 primarily due to the iron block engine vs. magnesium in the standard E46 and also the M-diff. M tried to compensate for it with lighter arms, etc. but it's still much heavier. Same goes for the M Roadster. I wanted the M Roadster. I *waited* for the M Roadster. But it's 200 lbs heavier than my old Z4! How do you think I felt after driver all three cars within 5 min of each other and came away with the "enemy" (Boxster S) as the clear and true cut winner? It was a little depressing especially since I loved the looks of the Z4.

And before you go buy the "much lighter" 911, just be aware that Porsche do not publish their "curb weight" like any other manufacturers. BMW's curb weight, or the DIN weight, is car plus full tank of gas plus 1 75kg driver plus 15 kg of luggage, the standard EU specifications. That's ~250-300lbs HIGHER than Porsche's curb weight claims. To get equivalent weight of any Porsche you must add at least 200 lbs.

The 911 is much lighter - the track scales prove it. The EU weight is different from the US weight. I quoted US weight (w/o driver, luggage, etc.) at 3571 lbs for the coupe from bmwusa. Trendwise from above, the new M3 will be in that ballpark. Comparing apples to apples, the 911 is MUCH lighter than the E46 M3 as proven to me by the scales at the track. Also, the weights were in the same ballpark as published on the websites. So your claim of BMW weighing with driver, luggage, and fluids is wrong. Where did you get that information? The EU weighs with all fluids topped off. The US weighs "dry". When you compare the US website's weights vs. the EU website's weights, you can see that the difference can only be attributed to liquid difference.

Porsche doesn't play by other's gentlemen's agreement, like electronically limiting their cars at 155mph ...or reporting HP or weight of their vehicles per SAE or DIN standards.

True, Porsche doesn't limit their cars to 155 (I proved it in Germany - see my avatar!). But Porsche DOES weigh their vehicles per SAE or DIN once they get to the US... No need to "add" 200 lbs to make a comparison. I saw the difference with my own eyes by looking at the scale on the track... :(

I was truly hoping that the new M3 would be lighter - so I could upgrade. With all likelihood, it won't be. It will be heavier. It will be in the same weight range as the Audi RS4 which also incorporates all sorts of lightweight materials.

way off topic but why did you not get a cayman S instead of a boxter?


I agree with m3armand in thinking that the next m3 will be too heavy for it's class. it's just watching how a trend developed throughout the 3 series. The e21 started out at around 2200 lbs and now we have the e46 at 3400ish lbs it's the trend that's been going on so no need to crucify someone for making an assumption based on 30 years of 3 series'

way off topic but why did you not get a cayman S instead of a boxter?

It's a principle issue... why would you pay $10k more (after adding the items that should have come with the car in the first place) for the HARDTOP version when you can get the convertible?

Actually, I felt claustrophobic in the Cayman S. Also, the Boxster S was already so much ahead dynamically than the Z4 / MZ4 that there was no way for me to perceive the performance advantage of the Cayman S. I.e. - instruments can record the difference. My butt, unless my name is Michael Schumacher, can't tell. But driving around with the top down is priceless...

iirc there was an article floating around here where bmw was saying they wanted a lighter m3..
dont ask me to find this though.

BMW already is aware people are are really having an issue with weight regarding the M cars. It all started when people started complaining about the E46 M3s weight. The new engine they will use will be lighter than the S54 and so will the front fenders that will be made out of composite materials. I don't really see the E92 M3 weighing in more then 3450 lbs.

Dude, it's a MUCH bigger car. It's about the size of an E39. It's going to be heavier. End of story. That's why there's a 1/2 series and likely an M2 coming out with around 300HP. THAT would be an interesting car.

Dude, it's a MUCH bigger car. It's about the size of an E39. It's going to be heavier. End of story.

+1 AND I'm willing to bet on it!

That's why there's a 1/2 series and likely an M2 coming out with around 300HP. THAT would be an interesting car.

YES...with the exception of perceived "downgrading" from an M3 to an M2... I am a bit curious since it will be cheaper than the M3, lighter and if they put the turbo in there it would be easier to upgrade!

They're making a 135, so there's your 300+ hp 1 series on the horizon.

Like someone said, BMW is aware of this issue.
IIRC, the E60 M5 is lighter than the E39 M5, so maybe we can hope the new M3 to be lighter than the previous too.

Like someone said, BMW is aware of this issue.
IIRC, the E60 M5 is lighter than the E39 M5, so maybe we can hope the new M3 to be lighter than the previous too.

Ummm..no offense meant, but how do you know BMW is aware of this issue? How do you know BMW even considers it an issue?

Can someone post the actual weights of the E60M5 and E39M5? If I recall, the difference was a whopping...25 lbs? That's about what I gain after a big italian meal!

All kidding aside, the new M3 would hopefully be in the 3000-3100 lbs range. Although the new M3 will most likely have aluminum control arms and aluminum hood, do we really think that the addition of the M-diff, bigger shocks, springs, sway bars, 19 inch wheels, bigger engine, dual exhausts, and other gadgetry would reduce the weight by 471 lbs from the coupe's 3571? I wish it, but I won't believe it.

BTW, the E46 never had the magnesium engine. The magnesium engine came out with the E90. You can witness their desire to lighten the cars looking at what they are doing with the new cars. They started experimenting with composites and unusual materials with the M3 CSL and continue with the E90. It's pretty obvious they are trying to lower weight. When you look at all the safety and luxury items on these cars, they are all (even Porsche) hard to keep "light".

It's pretty obvious that BMW is aware of the weight issue. Why else would they put a carbon roof on the E92 M3? or reportedly use composite front fenders. The V8 will be aluminum and is suppose to weight about the same as the iron I6. All E60's have aluminum front ends and the magnesium/aluminum block of the I6 is not there to make more power. There was an article about this in Roundel a year or two ago. Basically, people are getting bigger and so the cars are getting bigger, which adds weight. Then there are all the REQUIRED and desired safety features that add even more weight because of the heavier car, ie larger brakes, larger crumple zones, larger side impact bars and roll over protection. The day's of the 2002 or even an E30 are OVER. They were tin cans compared to the new car impact standards... and people don't really want a small BMW, or even a 4 banger BMW, which is unfortunate. I remember talk of a 240 HP 4 banger M1/2 that was suppose to come out. Now it won't happen without a six.
I'm not saying the M3 is going to be lighter, but it's pretty obvious, BMW is one of the few companies trying to actually keep the weight of all their cars in check.

For sure weight is an issue, we are talking about cars here and it feels like we're talking about weight issues of our fat kids. All kidding aside, this is just evolution among the car industry. As cars get faster so does safety. With the new features with safety it is going to be heavy. The very first M3 was very light because there was no need for them to make it heavy. Then again the e30 didn't have 400+ horsepower. When you're able to go that fast and quick manufacturers want to make it just as safe as it performs. 3100lbs and v8 400hp car equals trouble. It's like putting the average consumer in a car that is very light and powerful and expect him not to kill himself? That's like putting a F1 car in the hands of consumers and not expect themselves to get killed.

All of the small cars are growing.

The new civics are as big as the late '80's accord, and heavier than early accords too.

Have you guyz driven the new corrolas ? Dand thing is not an econo box anymore.

It's just the way things are going for the automotive indistry right now.


That's why honda has the FIT, toyota has the Yaris and BMW will come out with a 2 series...

Hopefuley thjose will stay small :)

For sure weight is an issue, we are talking about cars here and it feels like we're talking about weight issues of our fat kids. All kidding aside, this is just evolution among the car industry. As cars get faster so does safety. With the new features with safety it is going to be heavy. The very first M3 was very light because there was no need for them to make it heavy. Then again the e30 didn't have 400+ horsepower. When you're able to go that fast and quick manufacturers want to make it just as safe as it performs. lbs and V8 400 HP car equals trouble. It's like putting the average consumer in a car that is very light and powerful and expect him not to kill himself? That's like putting a F1 car in the hands of consumers and not expect themselves to get killed.

I believe that safety is not the only cause for the trend of the heavier car. Granted it plays a big role but I think the biggest thing is the convenience features. People want plush cars that are comfortable and have lots of stuff to distract them from driving. Who needs all that crap on an M car? If you want a luxury car buy something else. Back in the 60s humans could make a car with an all iron V8, steel body, solid axle etc that weighed 2500 lbs. Maybe if we applied all the new lightweight technology we have and could do with out all the luxury features we could build an extremely fast car that could stop and handle to avoid accidents instead of big heavy beasts that get into accidents but are prepared for them. BTW I feel an F1 car is much safer than most cars on the road. Most people don't have the balls or the neck strength needed to push one of those cars hard enough to loose control of it. Plus F1 cars don't have airbags and I have seen drivers walk away from some nasty crashes. The best way to prevent injury in an accident is to not have one in the first place. What we need to do instead of mandating cars to have more and more safety features we need to take away the PRIVILEGE of driving from all the people who can't drive. Sorry for the rant but I hate heavy bloated cars that pretend to be sports cars or sports sedans as much as I hate how bad so many people are at driving.

Back in the 60s humans could make a car with an all iron V8, steel body, solid axle etc that weighed 2500 lbs.

They sure werent from the factory with that weight. Cars like you describe...i.e. something like the gto weighed 3500lbs. and as they moved into the 70's your looking at 4000+ Hell 2002's which had nothing too them and a small little 4cyl weighed in a 2300lbs. Stripped out you could get a muscle car that low, but you can also get an e46 m3 to weight in at under 2500lbs if you take out everything and replace with some lightweight stuff.

They sure werent from the factory with that weight. Cars like you describe...i.e. something like the gto weighed 3500lbs. and as they moved into the 70's your looking at 4000+ Hell 2002's which had nothing too them and a small little 4cyl weighed in a 2300lbs. Stripped out you could get a muscle car that low, but you can also get an e46 m3 to weight in at under 2500lbs if you take out everything and replace with some lightweight stuff.

The first generation mustangs weighed in around 2500 lbs (Im sure thats dry weight but its still light). They had an optional 270 hp motor. Granted most cars from the 60s werent that small and the cars from the 70s were boats. The old mustangs came with pretty much no creature comforts like ac, power doors/windows, and etc. Mine had about 20 wires in it I think. Now just imagine if someone would build a car with an all aluminum v8, lightweight body panels, aluminum suspension components, and other various lighweight components and just skip all the unimportant convinience features.

I kind of agree, and thats why I'm keeping the NSX with over 135k and probably selling the M3 driven only 5k in the 3 years I've owned it.

And I'm probably getting a Lotus Elise :)

Alex...you MADE me look it up...

http://wheeltalk.fancal.net/?p=476

7:50 - 157.787 km/h - BMW E46 M3 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
8:09 - 151.656 km/h - BMW M6, 507 PS/1761 kg (sport auto 12/05)
8:13 - 150.426 km/h - BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg (sport auto 12/04)8:15 - 149.818 km/h – BMW Z4 M Roadster, 343 PS/1485 kg
8:20 - 148.320 km/h - BMW M3 E36, 321 hp (Autocar magazine 1997)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - BMW M Coupe, 321 PS/1445 kg (sport auto 10/98)
8:28 - 145.984 km/h - BMW M5, 400PS/1833 kg (sport auto 03/99)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - BMW M Roadster, 321 PS/1410 kg (sport auto 09/97)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - BMW Z4 3.0 SMG, 231 PS/1396 kg (sport auto 05/03)
8:35 - 144.000 km/h - BMW M3 SMG E36, 321 PS/1515 kg (sport auto 03/97)





6:55* - 178.699 km/h - Radical SR8, 360 PS/650 kg, Michael Vergers (sep,28 05)
7:12* - 173.600 km/h - Radical SR3 Turbo, 320 PS/500 kg (test drive 07/03) (*mfr.)
7:28 - 166.652 km/h - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, Walther Roehrl, (Autobild 07/04)
7:32* - 164.071 km/h – Pagani Zonda F, 650 PS/ 1230 kg, (*mfr.) www.autodrome-cannes.com/index-eng.asp
7:34 - 163.586 km/h - Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1418 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto), oct,17-18 05
7:36 - 162.631 km/h - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (02)
7.39* - 161.575 km/h - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1395 kg, *mfr. (quote sport auto 05/06)
7:40 - 161.217 km/h – Bugatti 16/4 Veyron, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)
7:40 - 161.217 km/h - Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 07/04)
7:40 - 161.217 km/h - Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/ ??? kg, Michelin Cup Sport tyres (Motortrend)
7:42* - 160.519 km/h – Ford GT, 550 PS/ 1521 kg (*as indicated by Octane magazine, 11/05)
7:42.9 - 160.207 km/h - Corvette Z06, 500 PS/1319 kg, Jan Magnusen, (Sporbilen, jun,26 05), www.supercars.net/Pics?vpf2=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=10073&mID=1384471&l=d
7:43 - 160.173 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Roehrl (MOTOR magazine)
7:43.5 - 160,000 km/h - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine 02)
7:45* - 159.484 km/h - McLaren F1, *estimated lap time from a video available at www.pistonheads.tv
7:46 - 159.142 km/h - Porsche 996 GT2, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/01)
7:48 - 158.463 km/h - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440kg (sport auto 07/06) www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=91836
7.49 - 158.124 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3, 392 PS (AutoBild 2004), www.autobild.de/tuning/testberichte/artikel.php?artikel_id=7274&artikel_seite=4
7:49 - 158.124 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3 Cup, 360 PS/1207 kg (sport auto 02/99)
7:50 - 157.787 km/h - BMW E46 M3 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
7:50 - 157.787 km/h - Lamborghini Murcielago, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/02)
7:52 - 157.119 km/h – Ford GT, 550 PS/1599 kg (sport auto 02/06), www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=0&tID=71646
7:52 - 157.119 km/h - Lamborghini Gallardo E-gear, 493 PS/1496 kg (sport auto 12/03) www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=3&fID=0&tID=92447
7:52 - 157.119 km/h - Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (sport auto 06/04)
7:54 - 156.456 km/h - Porsche 996 GT3 (sport auto 06/03)
7:55 - 156.126 km/h - Caterham R500 Superlight, Robert Nearn (EVO magazine 07/00)
7:55 - 156.126 km/h – Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg (sport auto 01/06), www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=67305
7:56 - 155.798 km/h - Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale, 425 PS/1387 kg (sport auto 02/04)
7:56 - 155.798 km/h - Porsche 996 Turbo, 420 PS/1569 kg (sport auto 06/00)
7:56.65 155.569 km/h – Lamborghini Gallardo SE, 520 PS/1560 kg, Tom Kristensen (AutoBild 02/06)
7:58 - 156.652 km/h - Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI, 420 PS/ 1650 kg, Frank Stippler, (10/05) www.8200rpm.com/forum/read.php?f=10&i=16841&t=16841
7:59 - 154.822 km/h - Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting “Performance”, (Walter Roehrl WHEELS 06/ 2004)
7:59* - 154.822 km/h - Chevrolet C6 Z51, company test driver Dave Hill (*mfr.)
7:59 - 154.822 km/h - Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R, Dirk Schoymans (Autocar magazine 97)
7:59.41 154.690 km/h - Subaru Impreza WRX STi spec.C “prototype” (2004), www.subaru.com.hk/pdf/SNW0404.pdf
8:01.72 153.984 km/h - Nissan Skyline R33 GT-R, (Best Motoring video “Carrera Invasion”)
8:02 - 153.858 km/h - Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting “Sport”, (Walter Roehrl WHEELS 06/ 04)
8:03 - 153.540 km/h - Porsche 911 GT3, 360 PS/1391 kg (sport auto 08/99)
8:04 - 153.223 km/h - Lamborghini Diablo GT, 575 PS/1620 kg (sport auto 07/00)
8:05 - 152.907 km/h - Ferrari 575M Maranello F1, 580 PS/1820 kg (sport auto 12/02)
8:05 - 152.907 km/h - Porsche 997 Carrera S, 355PS/1461kg (sport auto 05/05), http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=36440
8:06 - 152.592 km/h - Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (sport auto 04/02)
8:09 - 151.656 km/h – Audi RS4, 420 PS/1728 kg (sport auto 06/06), www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=87373
8:09 - 151.656 km/h - BMW M6, 507 PS/1761 kg (sport auto 12/05), www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=63338
8:09 - 151.656 km/h - Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467 kg (sport auto 08/02)
8:09 - 151.656 km/h - Ferrari 360 Modena , 400 PS/1464 kg (sport auto 10/99)
8:09 - 151.656 km/h - Lamborghini Diablo SV, 520 PS/1590 kg (sport auto 12/97)
8:10 - 151.114 km/h - Chrysler Viper GTS, 411 PS/1567 kg (sport auto 10/97)
8:10.75 151.265 km/h - Subaru Impreza WRX STi Version III sedan (1996), www.subaru.com.hk/pdf/SNW0404.pdf
8:11 - 151,274 km/h - Mitsubishi Lancer EVO IX (Best Motoring video 14)
8:11* - 151,274 km/h - Porsche Cayman S, 295 PS/1340 kg, test driver Walter Roehrl (*mfr.) (sport auto 07/05)
8:12 - 150.732 km/h - Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG, 476 PS/1651 kg (sport auto 04/02)
8:12 - 150.732 km/h - Porsche 993 Turbo (sport auto 03/97)
8:13 - 150.426 km/h - BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg (sport auto 12/04) www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=13956
8:13 - 150.426 km/h - Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS/1324 kg (sport auto 05/99)
8:14 - 150.120 km/h - Mercedes SL 65 AMG, 612 PS/2049 kg (sport auto 01/05), http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=23337
8:15 - 149.818 km/h – BMW Z4 M Roadster, 343 PS/1485 kg, www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/64720/bmw_z4_m_roadster.html
8:15 - 149.818 km/h - Corvette C6, 404 PS/1491 kg (sport auto 08/05), www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=0&tID=46738
8:15 - 149.818 km/h - Porsche 997 Carrera 2, Walter Roehrl (WHEELS 06/04)
8:16.15 149.471 km/h - Honda NSX (Best Motoring video “Carrera Invasion”)
8:17 - 149.215 km/h - Porsche 911 Carrera, 320 PS/1399 kg (sport auto 06/01)
8:18 - 149.916 km/h - Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (sport auto 09/2003)
8:18 - 149.916 km/h - Ferrari F355, 380 PS/1350 kg (sport auto 06/97)
8:20 - 148.320 km/h - Audi RS6, 400 PS/ 1815 kg (sport auto 03/01)
8:20 - 148.320 km/h - BMW M3 E36, 321 hp (Autocar magazine 1997)
8:20 - 148.320 km/h - Porche 993 GT3, Walter Roehrl (Car magazine 10/99)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - BMW M Coupe, 321 PS/1445 kg (sport auto 10/98)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - Mercedes-Benz C55 (sport auto07/2004)
8:22.38 147.617 km/h - Nissan Skyline R32 GTR (Best Motoring video “Carrera Invasion”)
8:23 - 147.435 km/h - Porsche Boxster S, 280 PS/1426 kg (sport auto 04/06)
8:23 - 147.435 km/h - Porsche 996 Carrera 4, 300 PS/1466 kg (sport auto 01/02)
8:24 - 147.143 km/h - Mercedes SLK 55 AMG, 360PS/1566kg (sport auto 04/05), http://speed.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&gID=0&fID=2&tID=31462
8:24 - 147.143 km/h - Subaru Impreza WRX STi (sport auto 05/04)
8:25 - 146.851 km/h - Audi RS4, 375 PS/1675 kg (sport auto 10/00)
8:25 - 146.851 km/h - Corvette Callaway C12, 400 PS/1564 kg (sport auto 04/99)
8:26 - 146.561 km/h - Nissan 350Z, 280 PS/1526 kg (sport auto 10/03)
8:28 - 145.984 km/h - BMW M5, 400PS/1833 kg (sport auto 03/99)
8:28 - 145.984 km/h - Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
8:28 - 145.984 km/h - Porsche 993 Carrera 2, 285 PS/1452 kg (sport auto 01/98)
8:28.93 145.690 km/h - Subaru Impreza WRX sedan (1992) “www.subaru.com.hk/pdf/SNW0404.pdf
8:29 - 145.697 km/h - Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG, 347 PS/1593 kg (sport auto 05/00)
8:29 - 145.697 km/h - Audi S4 4.2 Avant, 344 PS/1826 kg (sport auto 11/03)
8:31.- 145.130 km/h - 2006 CADILLAC STS-V, 440PS/1948 kg, www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101519
8:31.42 145.008 km/h - Ferrari F355, 380hp (Top Gear magazine)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - Lotus Exige, 192hp (sport auto 08/04)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - BMW M Roadster, 321 PS/1410 kg (sport auto 09/97)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - BMW Z4 3.0 SMG, 231 PS/1396 kg (sport auto 05/03)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - Porsche Boxster S, 252 PS/1386 kg (sport auto 12/99)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - Volkswagen Golf R32 Mk. IV, 250 PS
8:33.80 144.336 km/h - Honda NSX (6-speed) Coupe, 276 PS (Top Gear magazine)
8:34 - 144.280 km/h - BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS/1350 kg (sport auto 04/01)
8:35 - 144.000 km/h - BMW M3 SMG E36, 321 PS/1515 kg (sport auto 03/97)
8:36 - 143.585 km/h - Porsche Boxster ´03, 228 PS/1370 kg (sport auto 02/03)
8:36.42 143.604 km/h - BMW M3 EVO, 321hp (Top Gear magazine)
8:37 - 143.443 km/h - Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
8:37 - 143.443 km/h - Honda NSX 3.0 (sport auto 07/91)
8:37.10 143.415 km/h - Nissan GTR V, 350 pS (Top Gear maagzine)
8:38 - 143.166 km/h - Honda NSX 3.2, 280 PS/1386 kg (sport auto 08/97)
8:38 - 143.166 km/h - Porsche 996 Carrera, 296hp
8:39 - 142.890 km/h - Honda S2000, 240 PS/1275 kg (sport auto 01/00)
8:40 - 142.615 km/h - Chevrolet Corvette C5 automatic, 344 PS/1505 kg (sport auto 07/97)
8:42 - 142.069 km/h - Audi S4, 265 PS/1592 kg (sport auto 08/98)
8:42 - 142.069 km/h - Audi TT 1.8 quattro w. ESP, 225 PS/1461 kg, (sport auto 07/01)
8:42 - 142.069 km/h - Lotus Exige, 179 PS/796 kg, (sport auto 11/00)
8:43 - 141.797 km/h - Honda Integra Type R (sport auto 12/00)
8:44.83 141.303 km/h - Chevrolet Corvette Coupe, 339 PS, automatic (Top Gear magazine)
8:46 - 140.989 km/h - Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285hp
8:47 - 140.721 km/h - Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS/1246 kg (sport auto 11/01)
8:48.25 - 140.388 km/h - Porsche 911 Carrera, 285hp (Top Gear magazine)
8:49 - 140.189 km/h - Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS/1461 kg (sport auto 11/98)
8:51 - 139.661 km/h - Mercedes Benz C43 AMG, 306 PS/1571 kg (sport auto 12/01)
8:52 - 139.398 km/h - Mercedes Benz CLK 430, 279 PS/1564 kg (sport auto 09/01)
8:52 - 139.529 km/h - VW Golf GTI DSG, 200 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 11/05)
8:54 - 138.897 km/h - Porsche Boxster, 204 PS/1325 kg (sport auto 01/97)
8:55 - 134.579 km/h - Mini Cooper S Works, 200 hp (sport auto ??/04)
8:58 - 133.829 km/h - Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (sport auto 07/97)
9:07 - 135.576 km/h - Mercedes SLK 230, 195 PS/1356 kg (sport auto 05/01)

Fascinating, and thanks for putting up the post on Euro S50B32 powered E36 M3 besting a regular E46 M3 at the 'Ring.

I had corresponded in private to A. asking him if he was sure about his data, and where he had read it....

I've long thought that only the diff made the E46 M3 a "faster" car than the true E36 M3 as it was last sold in ROW(*)

If anyone would like to transform their 3.23 diffed E36 into a similar car, let me know, I have a few S50B32 engines around. A 95 M3 won't be exactly the same, but would be close given the 3.15 diff. Buy a six speed to match, put on a 3.91, and you'll be screaming fast.

Alex Lipowich

(*) Rest of World... ie, in the US we got a cheap 330, not a real M car. But we are lucky to have gotten even that. So, not proper to complain.

The M3 is a GT, not a pure sports car in the vein of an Elise. It has to have room for 4 real people. The E92 is going to be a bigger car with bigger wheels, bigger tires, bigger brakes, bigger engine, more safety, and crapulent luxury up the wazoo (nav, iDrive, Bluetooth, side curtain airbags, seatbelt assist, active steering, blahblahblah). Add it all up, and my guess is BMW is employing a carbon roof and plastic fenders just to keep the weight the same as the E46!

Which is, of course, a pig.

As technology goes further, cars get heavier. Why compare an ancient E21 to an E92 is beyond me. Oh yes again, dont worry everyone , the E30 M3 will remain the real M3 due to its light weight and agility. Still thinking of selling my E46 for two...or three..:confused

As technology goes further, cars get heavier. Why compare an ancient E21 to an E92 is beyond me.
agreed

So needless to say, I'm disappointed. I guess I'm aiming higher and shooting for the Aston Martin if not the Porsche.

Wow...I was so shocked that this thread turned into an 'all hail E36 M3' thread. :rolleyes

well any M3 looks better than boxter. :p

Wow...I was so shocked that this thread turned into an 'all hail E36 M3' thread. :rolleyes

Yeh. BMW ehthiusiasts are real pricks arent they. They hate even fellow BMW models. Im glad I like my car and have no hate. :)

:buttrock Yeh. BMW ehthiusiasts are real pricks arent they. They hate even fellow BMW models. Im glad I like my car and have no hate. :)

+1 to that and also this is never going to have a satisfying answer. Not to cut in but it seems that every single m3 has gotten heavier as they keep building them. Plus they keep getting more and more crap on them ex: bluetooth/nav/ect.

So here's my two cents. If you think the new bmw's are porky...try looking at a new audi! haha.

Wow...I was so shocked that this thread turned into an 'all hail E36 M3' thread. :rolleyes

Well, hey...why produce a car that's actually SLOWER (at least at the Nurburgring) than the one it replaces? Seems silly to me.

Well, hey...why produce a car that's actually SLOWER (at least at the Nurburgring) than the one it replaces? Seems silly to me.

Really? So how many times has your car been around Nurburgring? Mine....never.

Really? So how many times has your car been around Nurburgring? Mine....never.

Sucks to be you then... :(

Sucks to be you then... :(

I'm HAPPY with the M3. You are not. Therefor, it sucks to be you. :D

I'm HAPPY with the M3. You are not. Therefor, it sucks to be you. :D

heheheheh TRUE! Like I tell some people, "How does it feel to 'want'?". So true, if I were happy, there'd be no issue. Good for those who's standards are less - they're happier!

Good for those who's standards are different - they're happier!

*fixed

:)

Sometimes it's difficult to understand why people don't want the same things we do...it's caused more than a few wars.

BMW makes wise decisions based up on 2 things.

1. Sales.
2. Keeping cars 'drivers' cars.

Anything they feel they have to sacrafice so long as I feel there intent is to produce 'drivers' cars is up to them. Safety, comfort, and convenience all come at a cost. Find a different brand that sells cars with F1 based SMG transmissions for under 90k.

The new BMW's are wildly entertaining daily driver/track stars. Few cars compare in every aspect. I am not some new bmw fanboi, I consider myself a purist.

Josh

p.s. I just drove an e90 325i and I LOVE IT.

every1 is entitled to their own opinon..

with that said, IMHO, M3s are gettin heavier and heavier. I still would not say E30 M3s are the best all around M3s, but id love to have a newer M3 that is around that weight area. too bad thatll never happen.

to me, M3s should NOT have SOOO many luxury things. they should keep it as a pure race car. but then again, thats why they got the CSL nd the LTW correct? :)

Are some of you actually thinking the E92 M3 ISN'T going to be as quick as an E46 M3 around the Nurburgring? I really don't know what to say to that because that's just being ignorant. The E92 M3 will probably be the 2nd quickest road car BMW will have produced when it comes out (behind the M6) and probably the quickest production BMW around the Nurburgring, or at the very least 2nd quickest. Remember this post and bookmark it or subscribe to it and come back to it in a year or so and some of you will see I was right.

every1 is entitled to their own opinon..

with that said, IMHO, M3s are gettin heavier and heavier. I still would not say E30 M3s are the best all around M3s, but id love to have a newer M3 that is around that weight area. too bad thatll never happen.

to me, M3s should NOT have SOOO many luxury things. they should keep it as a pure race car. but then again, thats why they got the CSL nd the LTW correct? :)

Both our cars are nothing close to being racecars. Also, if you're worried about the luxury items that you mentioned, most of of them will be optional so you can just get a base M3 without any of that stuff.

Well, lets see what the damn car ( E92 M3 ) can do first before we judge it. Sheesh

Well, lets see what the damn car ( E92 M3 ) can do first before we judge it. Sheesh

We can already speculate based on what BMW has done in the past. It's alright to do so. BMW doesn't mess up on things like this, especially when we're talking about the M cars.

We can already speculate based on what BMW has done in the past. It's alright to do so. BMW doesn't mess up on things like this, especially when we're talking about the M cars.

exactly.

even if you dont like the styling, M cards continue to impress, im sure bmw will deliver.:buttrock

don't think the E92 can be slower than the E46. I'm betting on 8:10 tops at Nurburgring, even if rumour has it it could go below 8:00 which I'm not sure I can believe. It will flat out demolish your beloved E30. Euro-spec, that is.

This is maybe a bit hypocritical comming from a 540i daily driver owner... But I agree: Cars are getting heavier and piggier. BMW is also not immune to this trend. Everyone who has thus far posted has discussed good reasons for this but no amount of equivocating changes the truth. Big cars weigh more. And big cars that weigh more feel like they are going to slide off the road on tight turns. This is not a pleasant sensation. However, if agressive driving is your soul/sole (couldn't resist the pun) pleasure then I have a suggestion. Remove the 160+lb of electronic seats that will no doubt come in the new M3, strip off the door panels, refinish the interior with fabric and alluminum instead of leather, remove the 10+ spkr stereo and you'll actually have a pretty light car. And if you ever miss all that luxury you can just remind yourself that none of those things came standard on the original (E30) M3 anyway.

In short, here's a bit of news: No car manufacturer is about to relax safety standards because they'd get sued and because other manufacturers would attack that in their add campaigns. But you don't really need a stripped out car for a good driving feel. The joy of an E36 is not really due to weight, but rather as I've experienced, due to road connection. I've driven heavy cars in which I could feel the road well. And I've driven light cars which because of steering settup, suspension, tire choice, rim choice, etc. had about as much "real" road feel as a racing game at an arcade. Weight matters, no doubt about that. But BMW has mostly done a good job keeping the wheels connected to the road and the driver connected to the wheels. I'm not giving up on the new M3 yet. (Besides, would BMW really build another piggy coupe? We already have the M6.)

Really? So how many times has your car been around Nurburgring? Mine....never.

The Euro E36 was faster than the Euro E46 regardless of whether or not Armand's car has been on the ring. His car driving on the ring (or not driving on it) won't change the lap times set in 97 and 00 respectively. What is the point you're trying to make with your post?

This is maybe a bit hypocritical comming from a 540i daily driver owner... But I agree: Cars are getting heavier and piggier. BMW is also not immune to this trend. Everyone who has thus far posted has discussed good reasons for this but no amount of equivocating changes the truth. Big cars weigh more. And big cars that weigh more feel like they are going to slide off the road on tight turns. This is not a pleasant sensation. However, if agressive driving is your soul/sole (couldn't resist the pun) pleasure then I have a suggestion. Remove the 160+lb of electronic seats that will no doubt come in the new M3, strip off the door panels, refinish the interior with fabric and alluminum instead of leather, remove the 10+ spkr stereo and you'll actually have a pretty light car. And if you ever miss all that luxury you can just remind yourself that none of those things came standard on the original (E30) M3 anyway.

In short, here's a bit of news: No car manufacturer is about to relax safety standards because they'd get sued and because other manufacturers would attack that in their add campaigns. But you don't really need a stripped out car for a good driving feel. The joy of an E36 is not really due to weight, but rather as I've experienced, due to road connection. I've driven heavy cars in which I could feel the road well. And I've driven light cars which because of steering settup, suspension, tire choice, rim choice, etc. had about as much "real" road feel as a racing game at an arcade. Weight matters, no doubt about that. But BMW has mostly done a good job keeping the wheels connected to the road and the driver connected to the wheels. I'm not giving up on the new M3 yet. (Besides, would BMW really build another piggy coupe? We already have the M6.)


If you look at Porsche, the weight of the 911 has gone up 400 lbs in 30 years, and if you look at a 76 and 06 porsche, you can easily attribute that to dimensions alone! The M3's weight has gone up 750 lbs in less than 15. You can still buy a 3000 lb 911. Each successive iteration comes out with 50 lbs or so more than the previous; and Porsche is "softening" up quite a bit. BMW is just making HUGE cars. The new M3 is a BIG car. Unecessarily big. The E46 M3 has power operation of those tiny little rear windows. Why exactly is that necessary!!!

BMW is taking a major turn away from it's past, and it sucks. The new 3 doesn't even have an oil dipstick :rolleyes

Alex...you MADE me look it up...
7:50 - 157.787 km/h - BMW E46 M3 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
8:09 - 151.656 km/h - BMW M6, 507 PS/1761 kg (sport auto 12/05)
8:13 - 150.426 km/h - BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg (sport auto 12/04)8:15 - 149.818 km/h – BMW Z4 M Roadster, 343 PS/1485 kg
8:20 - 148.320 km/h - BMW M3 E36, 321 hp (Autocar magazine 1997)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - BMW M3 E46, 343 PS/1584 kg (sport auto 12/00)
8:22 - 147.749 km/h - BMW M Coupe, 321 PS/1445 kg (sport auto 10/98)
8:28 - 145.984 km/h - BMW M5, 400PS/1833 kg (sport auto 03/99)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - BMW M Roadster, 321 PS/1410 kg (sport auto 09/97)
8:32 - 144.844 km/h - BMW Z4 3.0 SMG, 231 PS/1396 kg (sport auto 05/03)
8:35 - 144.000 km/h - BMW M3 SMG E36, 321 PS/1515 kg (sport auto 03/97)



Why base this conclusion on the Autocar test compared with the Sport Auto Supertests? The list on the Nurburgring Fansite as the Laptime list doesn't include the Autocar test. Does Autocar have a test of the E46 M3 on the 'Ring conducted similarly for both cars? The Sport Auto tests are all done by the same driver, so at least that is consistent. Here's the link to the list. http://20832.com/?rubrik=rekorde&order=Distance

The Euro E36 was faster than the Euro E46 regardless of whether or not Armand's car has been on the ring. His car driving on the ring (or not driving on it) won't change the lap times set in 97 and 00 respectively. What is the point you're trying to make with your post?


Read the whole thread. If you don't understand, I'm sorry.

The E46 M3 has power operation of those tiny little rear windows. Why exactly is that necessary!!!



The air flows throught the car better with those rear windows open. I can open and close them safely while driving.

Seems like the M3's are getting heavier and heavier. The 335 turbo comes in fat (and not phat) at 3571 lbs. I assume the M3 will be in the same if not (as it is usually) heavier. This sucks. I didn't "upgrade" to the E46M3 due to the added weight. You can really feel the difference. Sure, the hp is much higher, but the driving dynamics is worse. The euro E36M3 with 321hp was actually faster thru the Nurburgring than the standard E46M3 (non comp package and not the CSL) with 340hp!! As purists have always said, the E30M3 is still the best handling of all the M3's. I was willing to compromise with my E36M3 for a little bit more luxury at 3175 lbs (with me in it!). But 3400-3500 lbs is just too FAT. Now getting closer to 3600 lbs...we're starting to get into the old Mitsu 3000GT VR4 aka Dodge Stealth weight territory...

As I've dumped my Z4 3.0i for a Boxster S for the driving dynamics, I feel like BMW is pushing me to go with the *much* lighter 911. It looks better, too. It doesn't look like some riced up Honda with expensive badging. Heck, have any of you guys seen the new Acura's? They look like they should wear the BMW badge! Nice classic, mature, elegant looks. I was never a Bangle Basher. But the 7 series STILL looks FUGLY to me. The Mercedes has always had that real nice classic elegant look. The Audi's also have that great look. The latest BMW's, however, have that riced Japanese car look.

So needless to say, I'm disappointed. I guess I'm aiming higher and shooting for the Aston Martin if not the Porsche.


I agree with you. Lets not forget that one of the reasons they used the twin turbos in the 335i and not the 8, besides the obvious potential redundancy with the M3, is that they said the V8 would be 200 lbs heavier.. Id be shocked if the E92 M3 came in under 3700 lbs. Even so, Im pretty sure its going to be an awsome car.. However, given that the 335i has been measured at 275 whp and 300 wheel ft lbs, using bmws drive train losses with the other models that equates to approximate crank numbers of around 350 hp and 365 ft lbs. No wonder car and driver turned 0-60 in 4.9 seconds... And that was on a brand spanking new one.. with a little breakin, it will beat the E46 M3. That aint at all bad for a car that bases at $41k! The M3 has its place thats for sure.. unless it comes in over 3700 lbs. But then, to equip it with a base level of comfort is going to cost us 65k, and fully optioned, its going to be just over $70k..

can i ask WHY people are even comparing the euro e36m3 vs euro e46m3 at the 'ring? 90% of us live in the US and 90% of us will be getting the US versions...now answer this is the US e36m3 faster than the US e46m3 around the ring? I highly doubt it!! so why b*tch about things that do not effect most of us...also why not compare the CSL e46m3 to the e36m3...can guarentee 110% the new e92 will be faster around the ring, in a straight line and even stopping im sure than e30...e36...e46 m3's...if all you can complain about is weight than stick with a 10 year old car and watch the heavy boat paddle right past you...

can i ask WHY people are even comparing the euro e36m3 vs euro e46m3 at the 'ring? 90% of us live in the US and 90% of us will be getting the US versions...now answer this is the US e36m3 faster than the US e46m3 around the ring? I highly doubt it!! so why b*tch about things that do not effect most of us...also why not compare the CSL e46m3 to the e36m3...can guarentee 110% the new e92 will be faster around the ring, in a straight line and even stopping im sure than e30...e36...e46 m3's...if all you can complain about is weight than stick with a 10 year old car and watch the heavy boat paddle right past you...

Really? What if the heavy boat weighs 3800 lbs? If that happens, your E46 m3 might well accelerate faster! I doubt youd be quite so blase then.. You clearly underestimate the effects of weight on acceleration. If all the 400 hp does is manage to keep pace with the bloat, its pretty sad.

Look at the new SHelby mustang for instance. 500 hp, but over 3900 lbs gives a 0-60 time that most people feel that engine should have been good for a half a second better. IM not complaining about a 4.5 sec 0-60, but for that engine, its pretty poor... WEIGHT is the enemy, and you shouldnt be so forgiving of your favorite sports marquis if it follows suit. Id accept 3500 lbs; maybe 3600 at the very most.. nothing more.

If you want a light car buy an Atom or a E30. Different strokes for different folks, thats why there is such a large used car market.

If you don't like the way new BMWs are going, don't buy one. The competition is all the same, getting heavier. The porsche should be excluded, because it has no real competition. It is in a class of it's own.

Geez. Why do you people worry about shit you have no control over?

Really? What if the heavy boat weighs 3800 lbs? If that happens, your E46 m3 might well accelerate faster! I doubt youd be quite so blase then.. You clearly underestimate the effects of weight on acceleration. If all the 400 hp does is manage to keep pace with the bloat, its pretty sad.

Look at the new SHelby mustang for instance. 500 hp, but over 3900 lbs gives a 0-60 time that most people feel that engine should have been good for a half a second better. IM not complaining about a 4.5 sec 0-60, but for that engine, its pretty poor... WEIGHT is the enemy, and you shouldnt be so forgiving of your favorite sports marquis if it follows suit. Id accept 3500 lbs; maybe 3600 at the very most.. nothing more.

haha that new shelby has not been driven properly or obviously the tires suck to get that time..just like its rated at a 12.6 or somethin 1/4 when ive already read of them doing low 12's stock...just like the new z06 was rated at a 12.1 by a magazine and we've seen what they do stock...the OLD (say that loosely lol) 03/04 cobra weighed about the same and had 100 less hp so i hope you dont honestly think the 0-60 stayed the same...you should look at dfwstangs.net and check out some of the runs/dynos for them, they are nothing to snuff at and will walk almost anything on the road but lets not get too off topic :devillook

edit:just to clarify tires, they only come with 285's stock in the back...which may seem big to the avg tire but is way to small for that amount of HP..look at what the vette/viper come with...it would need atleast 305's to get some decent traction

>>edit:just to clarify tires, they only come with 285's stock in the back...which may seem big to the avg tire but is way to small for that amount of HP..look at what the vette/viper come with...it would need atleast 305's to get some decent traction<<

I agree. just compare those rears to what the vette wears at 100 less hp! really screwed up.


>>If you want a light car buy an Atom or a E30. Different strokes for different folks, thats why there is such a large used car market.

If you don't like the way new BMWs are going, don't buy one. The competition is all the same, getting heavier. The porsche should be excluded, because it has no real competition. It is in a class of it's own.

Geez. Why do you people worry about shit you have no control over?
<<

That has to be one of the strangest posts Ive ever read. Just in case you forgot, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM.. Its to discuss differences of opinions.. YOu on the other hand seem to be of the singular opinion that this forum is only for people who LIKE everything on the model youre interested in. I must have missed the rule that said, 'forum only for fans of every feature...' . Why are you taking this personally? To me, its YOU who have the problem, blindly accepting needless luxury features being added to a sport machine causing piggish bloat.. But I get ahead of myself. To me, up to 3600 lbs is ok.. Im not crazy about it.. but i can accept it.. IF its more than that, Ill just buy elsewhere. .thats my right. Its also my right, and everybody elses' here to discuss those features they like and dont like.. Would you condemn all of us in the Forced Induction forum because we felt the E36 M3 was a great car, but underpowered? Do you ahve some kind of problem with an M3 that puts down over 400 whp? Then why would you have a problem with people who dont like bloat in their favorite vehicles? The trend of bmw, as well as most makes (but this happens to be a bmw forum so thats what Im going to discuss) to increasingly be in love with electronic intervention is an anathema to driving fans.. Most of us just disable the crap anyway.. Yet, we have to pay for it, and we have to suffer the bloat it causes. If you like it fine... But to try and shut people up simply because they feel differently than you, well, that mentality speaks for itself.

Oh.. as far as 'having no control' over what bmw does to their models... that is simply ignorance on your part.. Example: the M5/6 came with SMG only... Now, why do you think it is they are rushing to add manny trannys to these models FOR THE US MARKET ONLY????????? Ill give you 3 guess, but sitting quiet and not expressing folks' opinions aint one of them!!!!!!

>>edit:just to clarify tires, they only come with 285's stock in the back...which may seem big to the avg tire but is way to small for that amount of HP..look at what the vette/viper come with...it would need atleast 305's to get some decent traction<<

I agree. just compare those rears to what the vette wears at 100 less hp! really screwed up.



yeah but then again i guess its just one more way of keeping costs down...though whats an extra $500 when you're already spending 40k?!? dont get their thinking sometimes..just like the 03/04 cobra coming with 275's i believe it was...just plain stupid and dangerous even

yeah but then again i guess its just one more way of keeping costs down...though whats an extra $500 when you're already spending 40k?!? dont get their thinking sometimes..just like the 03/04 cobra coming with 275's i believe it was...just plain stupid and dangerous even

On this, I agree with you 1000 percent! Besides, theyve already kept the costs down by giving it the solid rear axle they managed to eschew in the previous cobra they released, much to the accolades of the press and fans. Why now they decided to get rid of it mystefies just as much as going with those narrow tires, and that bloated weight.

But thats ford.. what would you expect! ;) When it comes to our beloved bmw, though, weight is the enemy of performance and handling, and on the one car that is known above all for both performance and handling, they really cant afford to turn it into an audi s4, which most people agree was a nice car, but no match for previous M3s. Now the new RS4 is a different animal with hp and trq numbers which should be very similar to the M3s. Cept the base price is out of hand at around $66k. That will probably be the price of a well optioned M. Weight on the rs4 was kept around that of the S4, ie, around 3640. If the M comes in even a pound over that, I think theyll have made a huge mistake. .In the past theyve always been able to stay under the audi s line's weight. But the V8 is purported to be about 200 lbs heavier than the 6, so it might be a problem for them, unless theyve found a way to cut weight in other areas.. We can only hope.. and let them know how we feel..

Recently, I've come to the decision that I'm not going to buy a new car from any company anytime soon. Personally, 2002 was the last year for BMW where they didn't have bloated, neutered and overall ass ugly cars that tried to be as good as the past ///M cars. Since then, BMW, as well as virtually every other major manufacturer has made their cars more quiet, plush and easy to drive than anything before. That's the reason I hate modern cars...

I love being able to just push one button on my coupe and all electronic driver assist shit is completely turned off. I love how the car has a strong tendency to oversteer, as opposed to 99% of all modern sports cars that understeer when pushed. Basically, I'm done with buying new cars. I'd take the $60k that the new M3 will cost and buy an Elise/E30 m3/e39 m5/another coupe/mk1 or 2 GTI/ etc. They are all very unrelated cars, but they are still much more focused on a pure driving experience than anything produced in the past 2 years...

The air flows throught the car better with those rear windows open. I can open and close them safely while driving.

Air has been flowing through coupes acceptably with just the front windows down for decades. I'd rather have one less circuit on the wiring diagrams and less weight that a ton of luxury features. IMO performance is better than small luxury details.

You guys underestimate weight, too. Weight dramatically increases brake pad temperatures and you'll find yourself fading your pads a lot sooner on a heavier car. Weight affects acceleration, handling, braking, and the feel of the car.

I could make an SUV faster than an E36 M3 around the nurburgring with enough modification. Which would you rather drive? Which would be more fun? A second on the ring isn't the point. None of us are going to get to that level and none of us are racing our cars. Unless your aiming to become the next HPDE woprld champion, being the absolute fastest shouldn't be the point. I'll take the E36 M3 over the faster SUV.

Simiarly I'd take an E36 M3 and a Euro S50 swap over the E46 M3. They'd cost about the same. The E36 would be more fun AND faster though, so this whole "the E36 Euro is irrelevant" point is a moot one. You can have an E36 M3 with Euro power for much less than the cost of an E46.

It's pretty sad, but Mercedes cuopes are actually becoming lighter than BMW's . . .

Recently, I've come to the decision that I'm not going to buy a new car from any company anytime soon. Personally, 2002 was the last year for BMW where they didn't have bloated, neutered and overall ass ugly cars that tried to be as good as the past ///M cars. Since then, BMW, as well as virtually every other major manufacturer has made their cars more quiet, plush and easy to drive than anything before. That's the reason I hate modern cars...

I love being able to just push one button on my coupe and all electronic driver assist shit is completely turned off. I love how the car has a strong tendency to oversteer, as opposed to 99% of all modern sports cars that understeer when pushed. Basically, I'm done with buying new cars. I'd take the $60k that the new M3 will cost and buy an Elise/E30 m3/e39 m5/another coupe/mk1 or 2 GTI/ etc. They are all very unrelated cars, but they are still much more focused on a pure driving experience than anything produced in the past 2 years...

So true! Thats why my E36 M3 might be the last new car I ever buy... Well, lets not go over board...I dont know what the future has in store.. But, Its hard to think of another car in this category that has as much power, is as light, and handles as well as my modded M3 does (excepyt for other modded M3s that is ;) ). Why buy a new bmw when its going to lose out on many of the characteristics which made mine what it is. I always felt the E36 was the best M they did. Some think it was the E30, but i dont mind the SLIGHT accomdation to every day comfort in my daily driver. Only thing it was lacking was power.. But thanks to the aftermarket, thats easily taken care of.. And once it is, it becomes a hard car to top. The E46 is great also, although its starting to show its bloat here. Still, I wouldnt kick it out of my garage, thats for sure. So much remains to be seen with the E92.

I just compared the weight of the E46 330ci coupe, and the E46 M3, and if the difference between the two holds up going forward, all of us M fans are in big trouble. The 330 curb weight is at 3285 lbs , and the M3 is at 3415 lbs (3480 if you believe automobile mag at http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/) but Ill use the 3415 for the purposes of this discussion) . Ok now, thats only a difference of 130 lbs you say.. BUT.. the 335i weighs in at 3560 lbs so says Automobile Magazine in the article that shows their dyno test. Now if we kept the same weight differential and added 130 lbs to that, we could expect 3690 lbs for the rapidly becoming portly M3.. BUT.. in comparing the E46 weights, we dealt with two cars with engines containing the same basic configuration.. Oh sure, add some weight perhaps for the individual throttles and so forth, but essentially the engines were similar in weight... Alot more similar than we should expect with the V8, which weighs in at over 200 lbs more than the engine in the 335. So, the engine alone would boost M3 weight to near 3800 lbs... OUCH... Can we expect the M3 to be using weight cutting measures elsewhere to compensate? I dont know.. But it never has before.. In comparing the E36, you find the 328 is cpe is 3142 lbs and the M3 is 3175. So unless bmw sets a new precedent with the E92, were looking at an M3 that will weigh over 3800 lbs!

Air has been flowing through coupes acceptably with just the front windows down for decades. I'd rather have one less circuit on the wiring diagrams and less weight that a ton of luxury features. IMO performance is better than small luxury details.

You guys underestimate weight, too. Weight dramatically increases brake pad temperatures and you'll find yourself fading your pads a lot sooner on a heavier car. Weight affects acceleration, handling, braking, and the feel of the car.

I could make an SUV faster than an E36 M3 around the nurburgring with enough modification. Which would you rather drive? Which would be more fun? A second on the ring isn't the point. None of us are going to get to that level and none of us are racing our cars. Unless your aiming to become the next HPDE woprld champion, being the absolute fastest shouldn't be the point. I'll take the E36 M3 over the faster SUV.

Simiarly I'd take an E36 M3 and a Euro S50 swap over the E46 M3. They'd cost about the same. The E36 would be more fun AND faster though, so this whole "the E36 Euro is irrelevant" point is a moot one. You can have an E36 M3 with Euro power for much less than the cost of an E46.

It's pretty sad, but Mercedes cuopes are actually becoming lighter than BMW's . . .

OMG NO WAY! Another E36 M3 is the best car EVAR thread! SURPRISE!


About the air 'flowing' through coupes...you know that if you open the rear windows the air flows through the car without building up pressure and making excessive noise. Play dumb if you like....

OMG NO WAY! Another E36 M3 is the best car EVAR thread! SURPRISE!

:rolleyes You just sound upset over having paid more money for a car most people find less fun to drive. God forbid someone like the E36 M3 better. They shouldn't be entitled to an opion. :rolleyes

About the air 'flowing' through coupes...you know that if you open the rear windows the air flows through the car without building up pressure and making excessive noise. Play dumb if you like....
When I roll down both windows I seem to be just fine in every coupe I've ever driven (and owned.) I really could care less about heated seats, 20 way power seats, tilting rear windows, lots of bass and loud ass speakers, a pretty moonroof or plush leather. Give me a lighter car anyday. I'm sorry I have the performance first, luxury second attitude.

I could make an SUV faster than an E36 M3 around the nurburgring with enough modification. Which would you rather drive? Which would be more fun? A second on the ring isn't the point. None of us are going to get to that level and none of us are racing our cars. Unless your aiming to become the next HPDE woprld champion, being the absolute fastest shouldn't be the point. I'll take the E36 M3 over the faster SUV.

Simiarly I'd take an E36 M3 and a Euro S50 swap over the E46 M3. They'd cost about the same. The E36 would be more fun AND faster though, so this whole "the E36 Euro is irrelevant" point is a moot one. You can have an E36 M3 with Euro power for much less than the cost of an E46.



no offense but comparing suv's to cars is pointless...and im soooo sick of people always bringing up "well for what you paid for X car i could take this older car for half the price and put the rest into modding it" this is the OLDEST and lamest damn comparison...the ONLY way it holds true is if the person has 40k CASH that he is about to buy the car with...i financed my car, now explain how i could tell capitalone to finance an e36 and the euro swap..lol stupid arguement...misewell say i could buy a 20 year old bmw for a 10th of the price and put 10k into it and walk everything :rolleyes ...its not just bimmer owners though see that crap everywhere on the mustang forum about fox body's vs the new mustangs...unless if someone can do a complete interior/exterior change of the e36 i will take my e46m over it anyday euro or not...i think the e46m3 is the better styled car inside and out..most people would agree too besides the diehard e36 fans that woudlnt admit it even if they thought so and the people who dont like change. like you said most of us arent racing our cars so why give up luxuries/comfort/styling to have a car that is lighter...and slower most of the time

:rolleyes You just sound upset over having paid more money for a car most people find less fun to drive. God forbid someone like the E36 M3 better. They shouldn't be entitled to an opion. :rolleyes
DUDE..YOU CAR IS A 3 motherf*ing 18.
I'll see your:rolleyes and raise you :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes


When I roll down both windows I seem to be just fine in every coupe I've ever driven (and owned.) I really could care less about heated seats, 20 way power seats, tilting rear windows, lots of bass and loud ass speakers, a pretty moonroof or plush leather. Give me a lighter car anyday. I'm sorry I have the performance first, luxury second attitude.

My car has only two options, leather seats and HK. I see yours has a sunroof and some unnecessary body mods....strange.....

I haven't been poking holes in your severly flawed logic, but keep it up and I might find the time to do so.

DUDE..YOU CAR IS A 3 motherf*ing 18.
I'll see your:rolleyes and raise you :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

A 318 whose brakes wouldn't overheat at the track on the first few laps . . . And soon I'll have a GT3 that will trounce your E46 M3. Hell I could have one now if I wanted to, but I couldn't justify $60k on a car that isn't trackworthy in stock form (read: not a Porsche). What exactly is your point other than e-balling?

But oh, okay. That changes the laptimes set several years ago then. The E36 Euro wasn't faster than the E46 M3 because you just made that post :rolleyes

My car has only two options, leather seats and HK. I see yours has a sunroof and some unnecessary body mods....strange.....

I haven't been poking holes in your severly flawed logic, but keep it up and I might find the time to do so.

I looked for a car without a sunroof. It was a VERY rare option and I couldn't find ANY for sale. Only the hardcore performance guys are going to pass up a free option for the extra performance. The body mods were on the car when I bought it. They don't have a performance DISadvantage that the luxury features on the E46 M3 do though . . . but they do allow for the mounting of an underpanel the stock bumpers do not. Sure you only ordered HK (woo hoo heavy subs, eh?) and leather, but I am not complaining about specific options. I am complaining about the presence of the many weight adding features that don't belong on these cars.

Should people have the choice of getting 20 way, 80 lb power seats? Sure. But there should also be the option of LTW buckets. These cars are sports cars, yet there are tons of features like heated, power seats and rear power windows that add cost (those seats are expensive!) while DECREASING performance. Why not just lower the base price, remove the features, and make them options? When you add the options on, you end up at the same price as before, but those of us who want a lightweight car can save some money and get just that.

I don't know what your beef is with people who prefer lighter cars like the E36 M3.

A 318 whose brakes wouldn't overheat at the track on the first few laps . . . And soon I'll have a GT3 that will trounce your E46 M3. Hell I could have one now if I wanted to, but I couldn't justify $60k on a car that isn't trackworthy in stock form (read: not a Porsche). What exactly is your point other than e-balling?

But oh, okay. That changes the laptimes set several years ago then. The E36 Euro wasn't faster than the E46 M3 because you just made that post :rolleyes



I looked for a car without a sunroof. It was a VERY rare option and I couldn't find ANY for sale. Only the hardcore performance guys are going to pass up a free option for the extra performance. The body mods were on the car when I bought it. They don't have a performance DISadvantage that the luxury features on the E46 M3 do though . . . but they do allow for the mounting of an underpanel the stock bumpers do not. Sure you only ordered HK (woo hoo heavy subs, eh?) and leather, but I am not complaining about specific options. I am complaining about the presence of the many weight adding features that don't belong on these cars.

Should people have the choice of getting 20 way, 80 lb power seats? Sure. But there should also be the option of LTW buckets. These cars are sports cars, yet there are tons of features like heated, power seats and rear power windows that add cost (those seats are expensive!) while DECREASING performance. Why not just lower the base price, remove the features, and make them options? When you add the options on, you end up at the same price as before, but those of us who want a lightweight car can save some money and get just that.

I don't know what your beef is with people who prefer lighter cars like the E36 M3.

Who's eballing? Not me...I'm not the one that said I could get a GT3 'if I wanted to'!

I found a used E46 M3 without a sunroof and you're bitching about finding an E36 318 without one??? And claiming YOU'RE a PURIST? Give me a break, you're contradicting yourself. My 'heavy' subs? You're funny.

A GT3 is in a different class than the M3 now isn't it? So what's this comparison for? It would be like me suggesting I could spend <$8k on a car and beat your car around the track.

Who's eballing? Not me...I'm not the one that said I could get a GT3 'if I wanted to'!

I actually said I could have an E46 M3 if I wanted to. I could not go out and buy a GT3 right now though. Read the part about "I couldn't justify $60k on a car that's not trackworthy in stock form." That would be the E46 M3. The GT3 definately IS trackworthy stock and definately ISN'T $60k! :( The point was that it's stupid to talk down other people's cars on the internet when you have no idea why they bought them. FYI I bought a lowly 318 so I could have a disposable learner's track car that would be light and easy to drive, cheap to mod, and most importantly - cheap to replace. Once I've gotten faster, I'll move up to a Porsche.

I found a used E46 M3 without a sunroof and you're bitching about finding an E36 318 without one??? And claiming YOU'RE a PURIST? Give me a break, you're contradicting yourself. My 'heavy' subs? You're funny.

Congratulations to you. You're the first E46 I've ever seen without one. I was honestly unsure as to whether or not the sunroof delete was a real option. I've heard of 2-3 E36's on here that don't have sunroofs. Again, the sunroof was free. VERY unlikely someone's going to delete a free option like a sunroof.

A GT3 is in a different class than the M3 now isn't it?

You're right. It isn't in the same class. I never said it was.

Again, the point of my posts in this thread is that lightweight, bare bones cars can be faster despite having less power (i.e., the Euro E36 M3). I am not so much asserting the E36 Euro is better as much as I am wishing that BMW would have gone the E36 direction over the E46 direction in designing the E93. IMO stereo, air conditioning, power seats, and sunroof should be optional features. Then you can have the luxury features YOU want and I can have the stripped down performer I want.

BMW should just lower the base price, remove the features, and make them options. When you add the options on, you end up at the same price as before, but those of us who want a lightweight car can save some money and get just that.

Why people like you get annoyed with suggestions like that, or the preference some of us have for lighter, more performance oriented cars is beyond me. I don't get pissed off when people say the E46 M3 looks better. Why do you get upset if someone prefers the E36 M3 for performance?

I see 3 series owners argue more than any other car owner on forums

It's quite funny

Screw all this hatin lets get real, if we all were able to afford the new M3 we wouldn't be saying ish but what kind of HREs we would be putting on it. Its gonna be sick and I wish I could afford one !

I actually said I could have an E46 M3 if I wanted to. I could not go out and buy a GT3 right now though. Read the part about "I couldn't justify $60k on a car that's not trackworthy in stock form." That would be the E46 M3. The GT3 definately IS trackworthy stock and definately ISN'T $60k! :( The point was that it's stupid to talk down other people's cars on the internet when you have no idea why they bought them. FYI I bought a lowly 318 so I could have a disposable learner's track car that would be light and easy to drive, cheap to mod, and most importantly - cheap to replace. Once I've gotten faster, I'll move up to a Porsche.



Congratulations to you. You're the first E46 I've ever seen without one. I was honestly unsure as to whether or not the sunroof delete was a real option. I've heard of 2-3 E36's on here that don't have sunroofs. Again, the sunroof was free. VERY unlikely someone's going to delete a free option like a sunroof.



You're right. It isn't in the same class. I never said it was.

Again, the point of my posts in this thread is that lightweight, bare bones cars can be faster despite having less power (i.e., the Euro E36 M3). I am not so much asserting the E36 Euro is better as much as I am wishing that BMW would have gone the E36 direction over the E46 direction in designing the E93. IMO stereo, air conditioning, power seats, and sunroof should be optional features. Then you can have the luxury features YOU want and I can have the stripped down performer I want.

BMW should just lower the base price, remove the features, and make them options. When you add the options on, you end up at the same price as before, but those of us who want a lightweight car can save some money and get just that.

Why people like you get annoyed with suggestions like that, or the preference some of us have for lighter, more performance oriented cars is beyond me. I don't get pissed off when people say the E46 M3 looks better. Why do you get upset if someone prefers the E36 M3 for performance?



I don't get pissed...

sunroof was an option on the e46 m3....not standard. leather was too. so were power seats.

Jesus Christ BMW is in trouble then. Without any of the above the M3 weighed 3415 :eyecrazy Time to go the lotus route . . .

dbl post

Jesus Christ BMW is in trouble then. Without any of the above the M3 weighed 3415 :eyecrazy Time to go the lotus route . . .


Yeah, I should get a Lotus too...then my kids could ride in a wagon tied to the back of the car with a rope.

An M3 on a lotus diet would still have 4 seats ;)

Screw all this hatin lets get real, if we all were able to afford the new M3 we wouldn't be saying ish but what kind of HREs we would be putting on it. Its gonna be sick and I wish I could afford one !


I can afford the new M3, but I still don't want it (assuming it will be the pig that it will most likely be). If it is heavy, then I'm leaning more towards Aston Martin and go for "true" exclusivity. Different price point, but what the heck. If I'm gonna buy a pig, it might as well be a good looking pig! I just love the elegant/timeless looks of that car. I'll make my E36 AASC M3 the "tuner/track/playing around" car. The Boxster S will be the sunny day car. The Aston Martin the touring/driving around town car. My wife keeps her Audi A4 as her daily commute car (long commute). I'll use the Land Rover in the winter (which sucks for gas - yes, with this much money into cars, I shouldn't care about cost of gas... but I think it's great when I pull up to the grocery store in the Porsche and whip out my soda can returns out of the trunk...the look on people's face = priceless!). I just try to keep things in perspective where I got to where I am through hard work and "returning soda cans" for the 5 cents is not beneath me.... either that or I'm just cheap!

:stickoutt

I actually said I could have an E46 M3 if I wanted to. I could not go out and buy a GT3 right now though. Read the part about "I couldn't justify $60k on a car that's not trackworthy in stock form." That would be the E46 M3. The GT3 definately IS trackworthy stock and definately ISN'T $60k! :( The point was that it's stupid to talk down other people's cars on the internet when you have no idea why they bought them. FYI I bought a lowly 318 so I could have a disposable learner's track car that would be light and easy to drive, cheap to mod, and most importantly - cheap to replace. Once I've gotten faster, I'll move up to a Porsche.



Congratulations to you. You're the first E46 I've ever seen without one. I was honestly unsure as to whether or not the sunroof delete was a real option. I've heard of 2-3 E36's on here that don't have sunroofs. Again, the sunroof was free. VERY unlikely someone's going to delete a free option like a sunroof.



You're right. It isn't in the same class. I never said it was.

Again, the point of my posts in this thread is that lightweight, bare bones cars can be faster despite having less power (i.e., the Euro E36 M3). I am not so much asserting the E36 Euro is better as much as I am wishing that BMW would have gone the E36 direction over the E46 direction in designing the E93. IMO stereo, air conditioning, power seats, and sunroof should be optional features. Then you can have the luxury features YOU want and I can have the stripped down performer I want.

BMW should just lower the base price, remove the features, and make them options. When you add the options on, you end up at the same price as before, but those of us who want a lightweight car can save some money and get just that.

Why people like you get annoyed with suggestions like that, or the preference some of us have for lighter, more performance oriented cars is beyond me. I don't get pissed off when people say the E46 M3 looks better. Why do you get upset if someone prefers the E36 M3 for performance?

no offense but some of your logic is retarded...a BMW is not a barebones stripped out honda meant to perform for cheap...dont complain about the price of things and expect the company to take everything off and offer the m3 for 15k less so you can still own one without mods. That would completely kill what owning an M series is about...if every schmuck could get one it would just be another mustang. All you keep talking about is the e36m3..if you can afford an e46m3 than why wouldnt you atleast have the e36m3? Not trying to knock your car AT ALL just saying dont claim to be able to afford a 60k car and tell me that the car you chose over everyething you could get was the 318...when you could have got a e36m3?!? And would everyone quit calling the m3 a 60k car its not 2001 where all you can get is new ones..i doubt you bought the 318 new and used m3's go from 26k-45k even with only a couple thousand miles. Ive noticed that hardly anyone who claims they wouldnt ever own an e46m3 or e92m3 hardly have a car that could compete with it? thats like saying you wouldnt dare date britney spears ever cause she's not that pretty but being with a heffer...lol /rant

:rolleyes You just sound upset over having paid more money for a car most people find less fun to drive. God forbid someone like the E36 M3 better. They shouldn't be entitled to an opion. :rolleyes


When I roll down both windows I seem to be just fine in every coupe I've ever driven (and owned.) I really could care less about heated seats, 20 way power seats, tilting rear windows, lots of bass and loud ass speakers, a pretty moonroof or plush leather. Give me a lighter car anyday. I'm sorry I have the performance first, luxury second attitude.

That is the most stupid post ever. Dont call yourself a car enthiusiast please. When you have hate on another make or model you're just an insecure person has to reassure themselves about their car by putting down others. You sir, are exactly what isnt a car enthiusiast.

Reading some of these posts makes me laugh. Everyone is pretty much dissing at a car which hasnt even been realeased yet. Funny thing is people are afraid also because its going to be faster and handle better than theirs, despite 'weighing' more. Anymore excuses you guys have up your sleeve? Should I should the bandwagon and hate the new M3 because its going to be better than my car? Seriously you people shouldnt be called car enthiusiasts. You dont like anything but your own car. Sad

I don't get those who are on Mr.M's case.

All he is saying, let's have more choice! If you need all these options (power seats, nav etc) - by all means, order them as options!

But some of us don't need them, but are increasingly getting stuck with them as standard items.

So some of us are paying (in money and weight) for the features that have no value for us. This reduces the overal vehicle's value for us, in both financial and usefulness terms.

no offense but some of your logic is retarded...a BMW is not a barebones stripped out honda meant to perform for cheap...

Hondas don't perform . . . the NSX aside. I am not asking for a Honda. I am asking for something more Porsche or Elise-like. 911's have gained like 100 lbs over the past 20 years. The M3 has gained almost a thousand lbs in 15 years.

dont complain about the price of things and expect the company to take everything off and offer the m3 for 15k less so you can still own one without mods. That would completely kill what owning an M series is about...

I am not asking for a cheaper car. I am asking for a lighter one. I don't want those features removed because they cost money - I want them removed because they add weight.

if every schmuck could get one it would just be another mustang. All you keep talking about is the e36m3..if you can afford an e46m3 than why wouldnt you atleast have the e36m3? Not trying to knock your car AT ALL just saying dont claim to be able to afford a 60k car and tell me that the car you chose over everyething you could get was the 318...when you could have got a e36m3?!? And would everyone quit calling the m3 a 60k car its not 2001 where all you can get is new ones..i doubt you bought the 318 new and used m3's go from 26k-45k even with only a couple thousand miles.

I don't want a loan on a used car right now. Period. So that rules out any car I can't pay cash for right now.

Ive noticed that hardly anyone who claims they wouldnt ever own an e46m3 or e92m3 hardly have a car that could compete with it? thats like saying you wouldnt dare date britney spears ever cause she's not that pretty but being with a heffer...lol /rant

Do you realize that not everyone likes big cars? The new M3 will be as big as an E39 5 series. That's too big for me. Who gives a flyign fuck is it's faster? Are you going to be the new Formula street car world champion? I don't plan on racing my STREET CAR. Do you? If not, then who gives a shit about a nominal bump in performance? An M3 CSL is faster than a Ferrari 360 CS. Which would you rather have?

I want the car with the best balance of speed and fun. A 3800 lb car with excessive luxury features is not what I want. I want something more focused on performance.

252kw: I'm not an enthusiast because I prefer lighter cars? Have you ever driven an Elise or a Corvette or a 911? Maybe you should. I am sorry I want more PERFORMANCE instead of more weight and luxury features. Your logic sounds like you are a bling enthusiast while I'm a performance enthusiast.

Seriously you people shouldnt be called car enthiusiasts. You dont like anything but your own car. Sad

Really? I like the Lotus Elise. I like the 911 GT3 (996 and 997), I like almost every air cooled 911 ever built, the Ferrari 360 CS, and I like the C5 and C6 vette's. I like the E36 M3. I do not like the E46 M3. I do not like Aston Martins and I don't like Mercedes AMG cars.

Do you see a trend here? I like cars that are performance oriented. The ones that don't have traction control and don't have excessive luxury features. All those cars I listed as liked are track ready. I don't give a damn if they are slower than the cars I don't like. Go drive a Porsche. Then go drive an AMG. The amg is big, heavy, disconnected with the road and dull to drive. I don't care if they have 10000000 HP, they are boring to drive.

You guys all get your panties in a bunch because I like track ready, lightweight, straight to the point cars. You guys however, like big heavy cars with lots of luxury features. However, unlike you guys, I am NOT forcing my opinion on anyone else. I am NOT telling BMW not to offer power seats or a sunroof - I am asking them to make it a CHOICE. Right now, you have the option of power seats, but I am FORCED to have them even if I don't want them. I am FORCED to have a big, heavy, 3800 lb. You call yourself an enthusiast yet you're advocating forcing people to have luxury features in their SPORTS CARS that they don't want.

I am sorry, but there are all types of car fans. Some who want the most performance possible and want to track their cars, and some who want good performance but will trade that over-the-top extra performance for comfort. Why does BMW have to cater only to the latter? If they do, they'll lose M3armand and my business. I'll take my money to Porsche or Corvette for my next car. You know, someone who builds a track car for the street? Not a comfy GT car . . .

It's pretty sad that new Mecedes are lighter than new BMW's . . .

I don't get those who are on Mr.M's case.

All he is saying, let's have more choice! If you need all these options (power seats, nav etc) - by all means, order them as options!

But some of us don't need them, but are increasingly getting stuck with them as standard items.

So some of us are paying (in money and weight) for the features that have no value for us. This reduces the overal vehicle's value for us, in both financial and usefulness terms.

These people don't want choice. They are doing the very things they are accusing me of doing - hating on other enthusiasts. I have no problem with big heavy cars - just give me a choice of having a light one and let those who want the heavy one buy the heavy one.

252 and M-life however, want one car only and that's their car. They know full well a lightweight version of their car (CSL anyone?) would be faster and they don't want that. They only like thier cars and want to force their opinion on everyone else. They want to eliminate choice in the sports car market.

252kw:...Your logic sounds like you are a bling enthusiast while I'm a performance enthusiast.

Ha! Awesome! Made me laugh. Yeap, probably a "bling" enthusiast riding on the "M3" cachet. As I've had 15 years of tracking, not all people realize that a 318 is *that* much lighter and more tossable. I guess you can't sell people on what they can't feel on the track for themselves. These folks probably have never driven an E30M3 (probably the "real" M3 to me as well) on the track and can appreciate how truly magnificent it is. Jumping from that car to my M3 to an E46 on the same track speaks VOLUMES... Actually, setting track time aside, jumping in and out of these cars on the street also speaks volumes...

I want the choice. When I bought my M3, I specified that I didn't want the power vaders... Why? Each of the power vaders weigh a ton (ok, if I recall correctly, 75lbs EACH). I would have loved to also have cloth vader seats and not leather.... I want the choice.

I can afford the new M3, but I still don't want it (assuming it will be the pig that it will most likely be). If it is heavy, then I'm leaning more towards Aston Martin and go for "true" exclusivity. Different price point, but what the heck. If I'm gonna buy a pig, it might as well be a good looking pig! I just love the elegant/timeless looks of that car. I'll make my E36 AASC M3 the "tuner/track/playing around" car. The Boxster S will be the sunny day car. The Aston Martin the touring/driving around town car. My wife keeps her Audi A4 as her daily commute car (long commute). I'll use the Land Rover in the winter (which sucks for gas - yes, with this much money into cars, I shouldn't care about cost of gas... but I think it's great when I pull up to the grocery store in the Porsche and whip out my soda can returns out of the trunk...the look on people's face = priceless!). I just try to keep things in perspective where I got to where I am through hard work and "returning soda cans" for the 5 cents is not beneath me.... either that or I'm just cheap!

:stickoutt


:lol :lol Aston Marton ? uhmm if your at that level why buy a Boxster ?

As I've dumped my Z4 3.0i for a Boxster S for the driving dynamics, I feel like BMW is pushing me to go with the *much* lighter 911. It looks better, too. It doesn't look like some riced up Honda with expensive badging. Heck, have any of you guys seen the new Acura's? They look like they should wear the BMW badge! Nice classic, mature, elegant looks. I was never a Bangle Basher. But the 7 series STILL looks FUGLY to me. The Mercedes has always had that real nice classic elegant look. The Audi's also have that great look. The latest BMW's, however, have that riced Japanese car look.

So needless to say, I'm disappointed. I guess I'm aiming higher and shooting for the Aston Martin if not the Porsche.

I've owned 2 Porsche's, with my current being a 2003 911 C4S and my last being a 2002 Boxster. While I have loved M3's since I first laid eyes upon one, I have found nothing more enjoyable than my C4S. My only regret was that was I didn't hold out for a Twin Turbo. You should really consider a 911 TT or, if you can get your hands on it, a GT3. You could probably pick up a used one that is a couple of years old for a little more than the price of the new M3.

:lol :lol Aston Marton ? uhmm if your at that level why buy a Boxster ?

You mean, why buy the best handling convertible out there that still has comfort amenities (i.e. - stereo, heated seats, 2 trunks, etc.)? That's a silly question. I'm talking AM Vantage and not "Vanquish". The AM serves a different purpose and it's not as expensive as you think. The same way my M3SC serves a different purpose. The same way my Suzuki GSX600 serves a different purpose, etc... On my wedding cake, I actually had a black Aston Martin and a Porsche 997 on top! The question is, which one will my wife be driving more as she beats me to the garage every morning?!@?!

You mean, why buy the best handling convertible out there that still has comfort amenities (i.e. - stereo, heated seats, 2 trunks, etc.)? That's a silly question. I'm talking AM Vantage and not "Vanquish". The AM serves a different purpose and it's not as expensive as you think. The same way my M3SC serves a different purpose. The same way my Suzuki GSX600 serves a different purpose, etc... On my wedding cake, I actually had a black Aston Martin and a Porsche 997 on top! The question is, which one will my wife be driving more as she beats me to the garage every morning?!@?!

Why would you put two car's on the top of your wedding cake you don't even own ? Did you use the money from the soda can returns to pay for this extra addition to the wedding cake ? :lol

Why would you put two car's on the top of your wedding cake you don't even own ? Did you use the money from the soda can returns to pay for this extra addition to the wedding cake ? :lol

Well, Freak, I guess that just makes me a poser / wannabe. You must be a better man than I... :(

You mean, why buy the best handling convertible out there that still has comfort amenities (i.e. - stereo, heated seats, 2 trunks, etc.)?

I hardly call the rear trunk a trunk. More like a read glove compartment. Having two trunks really isn't the best attribute to echo in a Boxster

I hardly call the rear trunk a trunk. More like a read glove compartment. Having two trunks really isn't the best attribute to echo in a Boxster

The rear trunk fits a large roll-a-board. The front fits two medium roll-a-boards. That's pretty darn good! That's one extra big roll-a-board that I can fit over the Z4. The M Roadster can only fit 1 roll-a-board. Also, the Boxster has quite a few more compartments than the Z4. The Z4 has a glove box that CANNOT even fit the owner's manual! I had to stick it in the trunk! But yes, the Boxster S has far greater qualities than the trunk...best stopping distance, slalom record holder, excellent road feel (ashamed to admit light years ahead of my beloved M3), perfect seats, the best clutch and brake feel I've ever encountered, etc.

I hear your thoughts concerining the 911 TT. I'm having a hard time justifying $130k for it and I'm not too thrilled about the fog lamp positioning. Looks like a wart or something. I like the 996 TT exterior better...if I can find one in immaculate condition, my wife and I would super love it. But we're not too thrilled about the interior of the 996. We love the interior of the new Porsches. But we are lusting after the Aston Martin interior!!! There's an 8 month waiting list in Waltham at the moment.

Hondas don't perform . . . the NSX aside. I am not asking for a Honda. I am asking for something more Porsche or Elise-like. 911's have gained like 100 lbs over the past 20 years. The M3 has gained almost a thousand lbs in 15 years.



I am not asking for a cheaper car. I am asking for a lighter one. I don't want those features removed because they cost money - I want them removed because they add weight.



I don't want a loan on a used car right now. Period. So that rules out any car I can't pay cash for right now.



Do you realize that not everyone likes big cars? The new M3 will be as big as an E39 5 series. That's too big for me. Who gives a flyign fuck is it's faster? Are you going to be the new Formula street car world champion? I don't plan on racing my STREET CAR. Do you? If not, then who gives a shit about a nominal bump in performance? An M3 CSL is faster than a Ferrari 360 CS. Which would you rather have?

I want the car with the best balance of speed and fun. A 3800 lb car with excessive luxury features is not what I want. I want something more focused on performance.

252kw: I'm not an enthusiast because I prefer lighter cars? Have you ever driven an Elise or a Corvette or a 911? Maybe you should. I am sorry I want more PERFORMANCE instead of more weight and luxury features. Your logic sounds like you are a bling enthusiast while I'm a performance enthusiast.

on one hand you say you want more of a performance car than luxury? so how is a car that out PERFORMS a car in both a straight line and in the twisties not more of a performance car...and sorry you DONT HAVE to get power seats or heated seats on the e46m3 i dont have either

and yeah you're right the onlyyyy car i want is mine..lmao and are you stupid...CSL is not anywhere close to the price to get my car so how the hell do you know if id get it, you're the only one here making asinine assumptions its ridiculous. All i am doing is calling you out for hating on a car that OUT PERFORMS any previous m3 wether it be lighter or not. so quit using the word performance enthusiast jackass thats not what you are...you hate change wether it be for the better or not, so go get the famed e30m3 that some of you call the only REAL m3..yet dont buy one?!? You are a lightweight enthusiast period...if you choose a lighter car over one that outperforms it in every aspect than whats performance oriented about that...more stubborn and unable to cope with technology is more like it. So go buy the car you want quit wasting time in the 318, and when the new m3's come out like i said before watch that pig oink by you on the track and keep your nose up and say "well atleast my car is lighter" lmao...

and the only options you cant lose on the e46m3 are the DSC/power windows/locks/ac...you can get non power seats which arent that heavy, delete sunroof...so only thing you should bitch about is the dsc because every highend car comes with AC/powerlocks/windows pretty much...

and you say that we shouldnt care about which car perfroms better unless if were racers..lol but all you can complain about is a track ready car..damn you're a hypocrite seriously pick a side and stick to it but dont flop back and forth with your arguements and contradict yourself

The rear trunk fits a large roll-a-board. The front fits two medium roll-a-boards. That's pretty darn good! That's one extra big roll-a-board that I can fit over the Z4. The M Roadster can only fit 1 roll-a-board. Also, the Boxster has quite a few more compartments than the Z4. The Z4 has a glove box that CANNOT even fit the owner's manual! I had to stick it in the trunk! But yes, the Boxster S has far greater qualities than the trunk...best stopping distance, slalom record holder, excellent road feel (ashamed to admit light years ahead of my beloved M3), perfect seats, the best clutch and brake feel I've ever encountered, etc.

I loved my Boxster as it had perfect feel, but I never used the rear trunk. In fact, other than the dealer showing me I had one, I don't think I ever opened it.

I hear your thoughts concerining the 911 TT. I'm having a hard time justifying $130k for it and I'm not too thrilled about the fog lamp positioning. Looks like a wart or something. I like the 996 TT exterior better...if I can find one in immaculate condition, my wife and I would super love it. But we're not too thrilled about the interior of the 996. We love the interior of the new Porsches. But we are lusting after the Aston Martin interior!!! There's an 8 month waiting list in Waltham at the moment.

I love the newer interiors as well. Perhaps you should go with the 911 GT3. It's base price is more than $10k less than a TT and it IMHO looks better. Plus, it doesn't have the nasty looking nose of the TT. I love the Aston, but I know nothing of the performance and handling characteristics. It seems to me you are trying to get a combination of luxury-style interior, unique exterior and track performance. Depending on how you weight these, you will come up with different choices. Good luck! You should enjoy the time while you are making your decision.

on one hand you say you want more of a performance car than luxury? so how is a car that out PERFORMS a car in both a straight line and in the twisties not more of a performance car...and sorry you DONT HAVE to get power seats or heated seats on the e46m3 i dont have either

Wait a minute. Are you telling me that the E92 M3 in it's current form will be MORE of a performance car than the E92 M3 stripped down to the bone :confused

All i am doing is calling you out for hating on a car that OUT PERFORMS any previous m3 wether it be lighter or not. so quit using the word performance enthusiast jackass thats not what you are...

Clearly we have different views of performance. I am hating on the new M3 because it could be FASTER AND MORE FUN THAN IT WILL BE due to the e-baller I-can't-pick-up-chicks-by-myself badge whores like you who want to roll around being racin' car drivin' posers but can't handle the harshness of a real sportscar. You want the sports car image without any of the sports car drawbacks. You guys can't stand a performance car that doesn't have a stereo or power windows or power seats and a sunroof. I am hating on the M3 because it could be 400 lbs lighter than it will be.

And once again, are you going to be the new HPDE champion? Do you even track your cars? Are you going to EVER take your car to the limit (you can't unless you go to the track)? If not, then STFU with you "performance" bullshit, "jackass." :rolleyes This OMG the new M3 will be faster is a joke. Who gives a shit if it's 2 seconds faster? Is there a spec E92 series you guys are going to be racing in? If so, who cares what's faster. What's more fun is what matters. We buy these cars for fun, not laptimes. The CSL is faster than a Ferrari 360 CS. Which would you rather have? The Ferrari. Duh. The slower one that's more fun.

you hate change wether it be for the better or not, so go get the famed e30m3 that some of you call the only REAL m3..yet dont buy one?!? You are a lightweight enthusiast period...if you choose a lighter car over one that outperforms it in every aspect than whats performance oriented about that...'

Yeah, wanting a lighter GT3 over an E92 M3 means I am not a performance enthusiast :rolleyes I don't hate change, I hate cars not being as fast as they could be.

A performance enthusiast wants a car to be the fastest it can possibly be. That's me. I want the new M3 to be as fast as possible. I want it to be light and really fast over heavy and just fast. You however are a luxury enthusiast. Sure, you want a fast car, but you don't want to sacrifice your cappucino machine for more speed :rolleyes Fine, whatever, to each his own. But why can't BMW satisfy both groups?

more stubborn and unable to cope with technology is more like it. So go buy the car you want quit wasting time in the 318, and when the new m3's come out like i said before watch that pig oink by you on the track and keep your nose up and say "well atleast my car is lighter" lmao...

Wasting my time in M3 318? My 318 will run circles around your heavy ass M3 when you're brakes totally fade on the second lap :rolleyes The new M3, which has the same brakes but more weight and power, will be cooking it's brakes as well. If it's anything like the E90's, it will go into limp mode when the oil and water temps rise on a hot track day. PM maranelloman and ask him about that.

and you say that we shouldnt care about which car perfroms better unless if were racers..lol but all you can complain about is a track ready car..damn you're a hypocrite seriously pick a side and stick to it but dont flop back and forth with your arguements and contradict yourself

You shouldn't care about cold hard lap times unless you were a racer. If laptimes were all that mattered, everyone would have a C6 Z06 or a $400,000 supercar. And pull your head out of acceleration's ass and realize that performance is not one dimensional. Steering feel, brake feel, throttle response, low intertia and tossability are all performance parameters. Performance parameters where the E46 M3 sucks and the E92 M3 will suck harder. A track ready car means a car that will be fun at the track. A 4,000 lb car, regardless of how fast it is, will be less fun than a smaller one. Of course, you'll never make it out to one, so this whole discussion is moot. Zaino wax is more important to the bling enthusiast crowd (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=568314)

Ha! Awesome! Made me laugh. Yeap, probably a "bling" enthusiast riding on the "M3" cachet. As I've had 15 years of tracking, not all people realize that a 318 is *that* much lighter and more tossable. I guess you can't sell people on what they can't feel on the track for themselves.

Exactly. My car weighs 2650 with a half tank of gas, a gutted trunk and no rear seats. The new M3 weighs 3415 before power seats, leather, and a sunroof. I could easily see one weighing 1000 lbs more than my car. Anyone who can't feel 1000 lbs shouldn't be driving.

Again, all I'm arguing is choice. The choice for those of us who want it to have a lighter E92 M3 that is faster than the luxury E92 M3. Why people are against this is beyond me.

Exactly. My car weighs 2650 with a half tank of gas, a gutted trunk and no rear seats. The new M3 weighs 3415 before power seats, leather, and a sunroof. I could easily see one weighing 1000 lbs more than my car. Anyone who can't feel 1000 lbs shouldn't be driving.

Again, all I'm arguing is choice. The choice for those of us who want it to have a lighter E92 M3 that is faster than the luxury E92 M3. Why people are against this is beyond me.

This thread needs to get towed somewhere else because it has nothing to do with E92 M3 anymore.

MrM....your logic is horrible, and you continue to contradict yourself within the same post over and over. Go back and look, it apparent that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'm certain you'll be able to get an E92 M3 without a sunroof and power seats and possibly without leather. So quit assuming. BMW is a luxury brand, and the M3 is built on the 3 series as a base which is BMW's top selling model. They build the 3 series first, then the M3. So while I'm sure they would appreciate your input for a better M3, they're going to first listen to the demands of the consumers of the 3 series. People apparently wanted more room than the E36 offered, so we got the E46.

And Armand... I think we all appreciate your expertise, enthusiasm, and ability to choose your vehicles with far fewer limiting factors than the majority of us; however your inability to see past your own opinions does not lend itself to healthy debate.

Finally, I do not appreciate the continued insinuations that the majority of E46 M3 owners made their choice based strictly on cache. That generalization reeks of ignorance and holds the validity of nothing more than a red herring. If you want to know the facts of this E46 M3 owner and how I got here, the timeline is as follows:

2000- drive brother 323 vert for the first time = LOVE
2001 - start looking at used E36 M3 verts...can't commit to expense..continue day dreaming
2002 - close friend buys E36 M3 coupe, drive it love it, still can't commit
2003 - drive 350Z track, love the 'feel', doesn't have back seat and I have two kids.
2003 - start considering G35 coupe
2004 - sell boat, don't need a truck, ready to committ, consider e46 330, start window shopping for E46 330 (want newer car, less maint expense so E36 M3 drops off radar)
2005 - Drive G35 coupe, HATE the feel. Nothing like the 350Z....weird.
2005 - reconsider E46 M3, casual window shopping
2005 - inadvertantly find E46 M3 that met primary criteria: no options (light), 2002 or newer, <30k miles, <$40k. The capper was that is was CPO'd. I had still not even driven the E46 M3.

Went to dealer, drove car, fell in love, pulled trigger.

So tell me why I am brand whoring because I wanted a newer car (that performed equally as well as the E36) so I could avoid maintanence?

MrM....your logic is horrible, and you continue to contradict yourself within the same post over and over.

No, I don't. There is a difference between overall performance and laptimes.

"You shouldn't care about cold hard lap times unless you were a racer. If laptimes were all that mattered, everyone would have a C6 Z06 or a $400,000 supercar. And pull your head out of acceleration's ass and realize that performance is not one dimensional. Steering feel, brake feel, throttle response, low intertia and tossability are all performance parameters."

Removing weight from the E92 wouldn't make it that much faster (for the race car drivers), but it would make it more fun (for some of us) while making it more uncomfortable for others (those who mainly have it for street use.)

Go back and look, it apparent that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'm certain you'll be able to get an E92 M3 without a sunroof and power seats and possibly without leather. So quit assuming.

I am not assuming, and those are just examples of weight gain. Even without those items the E46 M3 is still 3415 and will be heavier in E92 trim. Part of the weight gain is features and options, yes, but another part is the very car itself. The car is designed from the beginning to be heavy. Look at the solidity of your door panels vs the E36. The E46 has a LOT of sound deadening (and I do mean a lot), and for that reason the car is quieter at 130 than the E36 is at 60. You have nicer, thicker carpets and a more solid, luxurious interior. There is more leather and less plastic, all the panels are thicker and better looking. The rear coupe windows are electric. All these little things add up, and they are all little things you can't option out. BTW I am NOT doing an E36 vs E46 battle, but an explanation of the differences between the two.

You mentioned kids and it sounds like your car is a street car that hauls children. I can see why you wouldn't want it loud, bouncy, and dull inside. I would too were I in your position. I don't have kids and I'd rather have it noisy. I'd rather lose the sound deadening. I'd rather have less (or no) speakers even thought it would mean crappy sound quality. I'de rather have crappy E36 door panels even though they look and feel worse. Would removing these items dramatically reduce laptimes? Probably not, though they might make the car a bit faster. But they would make it a lot more fun IMO.

Will the E92 allow you to option out 100 lbs of weight? Probably. But there are still hundreds of pounds of asphault, sound deadening, hood and truck insulation, thick, quiet glass, power everything, electrically tilting steering wheel, etc that you won't be able to get rid of.

20 years ago the M3 was a street legal race car. It was loud, uncomfortable, stiff, etc. Since then it's started to migrate away from that, and it's not a trackable car in stock form anymore. It's being marketed differently and BMW are moving away from street legal race car towards street car. That's fine, but I just wish they didn't forget the street legal race car. They are totally capable of building both (they made the CSL much lighter and they didn't even touch sound deadening and other stuff.) If BMW makes an E92 CSL without speakers, sound deadening, factory coilovers with DA shocks and with a very, very basic interior, then comes into weigh in at 3200 lbs, I will buy it. If they took what they did with the previous CSL and remov