Ok, so after lowering my car the rear camber is a bit to negative for me and will probably wear through tires quite quickly. I am thinking about ordering the adjustable camber bushings from tep. Cant i just slot the holes in the crossmember instead? has anyone done this, and is it effective? i have heard that if you slot the crossmember you need to adjust it, then weld washers in place to maintain the alignment?

thanks in advance

The rear camber kit will only give about +/- 3 degrees of adjustment. Sloting the subframe is the way to go. You will get more adjustment this way then with the camber kit I would believe. I already have the kmac camber kit on the rear and it is maxed out and I still have a lot of camber and uneven tire wear. There are a few guys here that have done it, I'm getting ready to do this in a couple weeks.

they run a couple degrees negative on the rear as standard, anyone had an alignment done to see how much its kicked out? if so, how far did you lower the car?

so does everything stay put after slottin the crossmember? i have heard from tep that it is best to adjust everything, then weld washers in place. so it looks like i'll be doing k-mac bushings and slotting it. If i left it the way it is, i would be eating through tires like crazy. i'll snap some pics later from the rear of the car so you can really see the negative camber.

I know Josh has sloted his and didnt weld the washer in place. When I do mine i might just tack it for safety. I'm also going to ruff up the surface area on the washer and the subframe where they connect.

I did mine without welding and it has moved. Next time i'm under there i'm going to weld tabs on the mounts and get eccentric washer'd bolts so that as I rotate the bolts it sets the camber. The tabs will sit on the top and bottom of the offset washer to hold the adjustment in place. I recently saw pics of one set up this way and the eccentric washers even had degree marks on them. Anyone know where these pics are? I forget. Joe has some more pics of his dinan subframe that is setup similar to this, but it looks like they just cut 1/8" wall square tubing and welded it on the mounts rather than welding tabs directly to the mounts. I'd rather do something like this rather than tac it so I still have adjustability.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c58/jrcook320/DSC00513.jpg

SIDE NOTE:
I found out this weekend that I had my car TOO low for good handling. For almost a year now when auto Xing we were always driving 10 feet behind the car, we were reacting to it's handling instead of it reacting to our in put. Had the car lowered 3" in the back and 2.5" in the front. Well before this last week end of shaving tires I raised the back up 1 " the front 1/2", WOW :alright what a difference!!! All day the car did what I wanted it to do and not once was I playing catch up to it.

E21 rear suspension (trailing arms) is designed to have the arms be run at a curtain angle in relation to the ground or to the bottom of the car - Front to Back. Too much angle (either way is bad) Lowered the arm goes downward from the wheel to were it mounts to the chassis totally screws up forward bite, roll center, and more??

Best angle for the rear trailing arm is to be parallel to the bottom of car or actually going up a little from the wheel to the chassis, stock ride hieght. This is way on some group3 and group5 cars the mounting points for the rear trailing arms was raised on the rear sub frames 2 or more inches which requires wholes in the floor and moving the fuel pump and filter. Something I'm going to work on this winter. NOTE: adjustable bushings can not fix this arm angle problem just caster and toe-in.

Right now I am lowered 2" up front and 2" in the back from stock, giving the car about 1/2" rack - 1/2" lower in the front then the back.

My point, lower is not always better handling - but it sure LOOKS better, so test handling before staying too low. my $.02

Good thread, Im keepin it. The PO slotted mine; I will have to see later how good a job he did when I drop it from the jackstands in a week or so...I could hardly find ANY info on slotting before (on e21's), but I found a link to another marquis that has detailed inst. on where and how to slot...I will look for it. j
-

I did mine without welding and it has moved. Next time i'm under there i'm going to weld tabs on the mounts and get eccentric washer'd bolts so that as I rotate the bolts it sets the camber. The tabs will sit on the top and bottom of the offset washer to hold the adjustment in place. I recently saw pics of one set up this way and the eccentric washers even had degree marks on them. Anyone know where these pics are? I forget. Joe has some more pics of his dinan subframe that is setup similar to this, but it looks like they just cut 1/8" wall square tubing and welded it on the mounts rather than welding tabs directly to the mounts. I'd rather do something like this rather than tac it so I still have adjustability.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c58/jrcook320/DSC00513.jpg
Yeah, I have them all on my other computer at home. I am going to powdercoat it
either silver or black.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00468.jpg
Basically i can put them back up if u all need them,
my subframe has been modified by Ray Korman with DINAN eccentrics,
and cost Dennis Cardosa -the previous owner of the subframe a bloody fortune to get made.
I am willing to share it with you all.. and we have talked about this before
Korman does a little more, not much mind you but something that I had never seen,
too the rear subframe then just slotting it.

I got tired of the / \ of my rear wheels.

Basically i can put them back up if u all need them,
my subframe has been modified by Ray Korman with DINAN eccentrics,
and cost Dennis Cardosa -the previous owner of the subframe a bloody fortune to get made.
I am willing to share it with you all.. and we have talked about this ad nasuem.

I got tired of the / \ of my rear wheels.
You're willing to share?? I get first dibs, can I run it on my car this month? Who gets it next month? j/k. I'll either make my own eccentrics or try to buy them from Dinan or something. My subframe's already slotted, I just need to weld on plates for the eccentrics.

You're willing to share?? I get first dibs, can I run it on my car this month? Who gets it next month? j/k. I'll either make my own eccentrics or try to buy them from Dinan or something. My subframe's already slotted, I just need to weld on plates for the eccentrics.
As I said I can take what ever measurements, pictures and if you lived closer I would let you see it so that you can replicate it for a fraction of 1K that they charge for the subframe. I am sharing info bro.

As I said I can take what ever measurements, pictures and if you lived closer I would let you see it so that you can replicate it for a fraction of 1K that they charge for the subframe. I am sharing info bro.
I know, I'm just kiddin' man. I just found an excellent recource here. It looks like you can buy 5 series eccentrics from the dealership. When I do this to my subframe I'll write up a DIY. You can all thank me later. :)
E30 slotted subframe & BMW eccentric part numbers (http://e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/jl_sub/index.htm)


And here's some the science behind why too low is not good for handling, as Old Man was saying:
how geometry effects roll center (http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/roll_center/index.htm)

Too low can increase roll couple (http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Weight_Transfer/weight_transfer2.htm)

I can do what they did with a die grinder in a few if not less than a few hours. Flippin rip-off of the century. 1k to drill some holes and weld a washer to a bolt, splendid.

I know, I'm just kiddin' man. I just found an excellent recource here. It looks like you can buy 5 series eccentrics from the dealership. When I do this to my subframe I'll write up a DIY. You can all thank me later. :)
E30 slotted subframe & BMW eccentric part numbers (http://e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/jl_sub/index.htm)


And here's some the science behind why too low is not good for handling, as Old Man was saying:
how geometry effects roll center (http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/roll_center/index.htm)

Too low can increase roll couple (http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Weight_Transfer/weight_transfer2.htm)

You planning this soon? I'm betting you would do something more trick then me with your background. I'd like to see what you come up with, then replicate it. I'm planning on doing this around September, just got my coil-overs, and a few bits from the UPS girl last night :redspot

I can do what they did with a die grinder in a few if not less than a few hours. Flippin rip-off of the century. 1k to drill some holes and weld a washer to a bolt, splendid.

What coil overs are you using? Ground Control? I am going to build a set.
What Spring Rates are you thinking about. 400 front 350 rear?

And yes Doods Korman will not tell you what they do when you call them like I did before I got this subframe. What are they on? :smoke3 its at least 1k for this, and Dennis got a small credit for the core that he sent in when he put this one on his car.
Hmm. Its seems to be the same principal at work. Good call Josh.
http://e30m3performance.com/installs/installs-3/jl_sub/rtoeadj-4.jpg

Ok. Let me know if u need any more. here goes::)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00513.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00516.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00521.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00519.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00515.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00514.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/80ec400c.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00520.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/DSC00518.jpg

I went with Ground controls 350 fornt, 250 rear.

BTW Josh the eccentrics on the new Celica's are pretty much the same. They are stock parts, I have a set I was going to use for this application that I got from my buddy a couple weeks ago when we did his camber. They were only $9 each.

I went with Ground controls 350 fornt, 250 rear.

BTW Josh the eccentrics on the new Celica's are pretty much the same. They are stock parts, I have a set I was going to use for this application that I got from my buddy a couple weeks ago when we did his camber. They were only $9 each.

I'd like to do GC's and redo my subframe this summer, but for now I just need to get the car running with the turbo. I'll probably just drive it till i put it away for the winter to maximize uptime, it's been since last fall since I was able to drive it.

Do you have measurements of the celica bolts? The BMW eccentrics are M12 X 1.5 X 98mm. If it's about the same they should fit fine. Let me know if you have a part number for the celica bolts.

My plan is to buy some bolts, then see if there is any 1/8" wall square bar stock that the washers fit inside tightly (not likely, but you never know). If so I'll buy a couple feet of it, and cut and weld it to the subframe just like in the pics. If not I'll just weld tabs to the existing mounts, but I bet the plates make it stronger.

I think those bmw part numbers for the e39 eccentrics were wrong. The e30 link says:

33 32 1 092 310 - bolt M12 X 1.5 X 98mm <-- but its actually the m12 flat washer you need.

33-32-1-093-456 washer <-- but its actually an m10x66 eccentric bolt

Real OEM (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE51&mospid=47548&btnr=33_0519&hg=33&fg=30)

Looks like it should be:
33 32 1 095 102 - M12 X 1.5 X 98mm

33 32 1 092 310 - M12 washer

well guys, after reading all this im still a little confused. i dont know alot of terms of modification in the suspension. i know what camber angles are and such but im really confused to when you guys say "slotted". can someone try to explain it a little bit for me? sorry....:help :(

a stock subframe has round holes at the trailing arm mounts which hold the trailing arms in a fixed position. If you slot the mounting holes of the trailing arms, you can adjust camber and toe. You slot the inside mounts vertically for camber and the outside mounts horizontally for toe. Here's my subframe:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c58/jrcook320/subframe.jpg

I've got kmac in the rear of mine - no problems.

Got each side set at -2.5 Camber.

ah! thanks cook!

I've got kmac in the rear of mine - no problems.

Got each side set at -2.5 Camber.

I have the same kit except the best I could do is -3 I am not happy with this, my tire wear is pissing me off.

I have the same kit except the best I could do is -3 I am not happy with this, my tire wear is pissing me off.

Really?? I could get to -1.5

I've got adjustable strut tops now too, so I'm looking to go -2 or -3 in the front.

FWIW I'm not running a slotted subframe. I do however have the standard urethane trail arm bushes. Only thing I plan to change is buying delrin bushes next time around. I guess for track you could dial in a little more with a slotted subframe, but for hard autox or street driving I don't see a use. To low does equal very bad handling. To much negative camber in the rear won't allow the car to rotate very well either. Coupled with low spring rates and you might as well drive a honda. It will understeer like a snow plow.

AutoX320
I'm thinking of taking out some front caster, what do you think? We are wearing out the inside of the 7" wide hoosiers up front more then the outside but still getting scuff marks on the outside sidewall :confused , running 38 to 40 psi up front.

Raising the car did do away with 90% of my understeer, I think the increased rack added to that also.

AutoX320
I'm thinking of taking out some front caster, what do you think? We are wearing out the inside of the 7" wide hoosiers up front more then the outside but still getting scuff marks on the outside sidewall :confused , running 38 to 40 psi up front.

Raising the car did do away with 90% of my understeer, I think the increased rack added to that also.
taking out caster would do that? sounds like you've got too much negative camber up front.
Jake

That is what the tires would make you think - but the front camber is untouched 'stock'

Stock - but lowered, which means a lot more than stock, right?

Stock - but lowered, which means a lot more than stock, right?
that's what I thought. I've read around that when you lower a vehicle's suspension, it creates more negative camber.
Jake

that's what I thought. I've read around that when you lower a vehicle's suspension, it creates more negative camber.
Jake
Not much on a McPherson strut suspension. When you turn the wheel from lock to lock, it looks like the "camber" of the wheel changes. This is due to the caster.

because the lower arm has a fixed pivot point the camber is at it greatest when the lower arm is parallel to the ground you could in theory lower the car enough to loss camber.
I'm pretty sure that the stock suspension design is worked out to have the front arms close to parallel stock.
I need to take a look at my other car, i'll get back to you on this.

Lowering doesn't add much camber if any at all on the E21. I run stock castor meaning the strut top is centered front to back. I have about -2 to -2.5 deg camber in the front. I run it setup for autocross all day on the street with Azenis. Rear camber is also around -2 to -2.5 degrees.
Rain is a little scary, but boy is it fun in the dry! My tire wear is acceptable and not unusual. One thing to check is brakes. I found I was locking the brakes to much and causing my old victoracers inside edge to go away. Also along the same lines don't run to much negative camber up front. At about 3 degrees I also had the same braking problem especially in straight line braking. Not enough tire patch.

GC's w/bilsteins
350 front; stock "i" small swaybar
400 rear; no swaybar

2004 24hr autox damage (almost 100 runs back to back)

205/50/15 victoracer
http://www.bmw320i.com/forumimages/tireware.jpg

bluing rotors
http://www.bmw320i.com/forumimages/bluerotor.jpg

Forced oxidation sucks. Isnt the blue reflection supposed to occur around 700-F? Because damn, that got really hot, do you get a lot of pad glaze causing the brakes to fade?

Girlings, or any type of BBK would do you a little justice.

Never had brake fade:D ; I use Carbotech Panther plus pads and shoes. Dirty, but streetable. In the winter I'm extra careful, but they do stop stone cold. Bigger brakes are extra weight:devillook My caliper dust seals melt away. I buy new calipers about every couple years now. Also the reason I stick with cheaper lighter solid rotors. On track days I could see how the rears could be upgraded to disc. Heat trapped in the drum causes fade which leads to extra adjustments. Autocross this isn't a problem at all. The calipers in the picture use to be painted black with VHT paint:buttrock

I dug this old roadfly topic up:
The Datsun 510 group has a good article with diagrams. See:
http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/
Click on "articles" then go to Volume 2 Issue 4 and click on Crossmember Slotting.
Hope this helps

John

Or try here: http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/