I'll begin by saying I'm completely new to BMWs, save for riding in them. Please be gentle. :)

I'm in the market for car in the $25-$30k range. Really, I'm looking for something that can perform, handle, be safe, and won't fall apart. Ideally 300+ HP N/A, 2-door design, not 4000 lbs, and not horribly ugly.

That rules out most American cars, save one: the '06 Mustang GT.

A new GT and a used BMW M3 from 2001 are very similar in price.

I've never bought a used car before, and certainly not a BMW. Almost all of them from 2001 have between 60k and 90k miles. I'm afraid if I go this route, I'll choose one that's been thrashed by the previous owner.

But it is the better car, at times by a little, and often by a lot.

That in mind..

1. What are some common problems with this models?
2. What should I look for on a test drive?
3. Questions to ask previous owner/seller?

Much thanks for your help.

I do not know about any common problems with them due to the fact that I have never owned one nor have I looked into the problems so maybe some one can help you out with that question. I would look for one that is stock so that way you have a better piece of mind that it has not been beaten up on. Ask about any matenence the owner has done on it and who did the work. If they have dealer service papers even better. Maybe check out what type of owner he or she is and before you test drive the car ask them to take you out for a drive to see how they drive the car. Usually with a car that new and with that kind of a price tag (the M3 that is) the car will most likely be owned by someone with more mature driving experience. How ever there is always the select few who mash the gas and drop the clutch when ever they get the chance... :devillook either way you should be able to tell by the car and driver and go with your gut feeling. But honestly when it is all said and done there is really no way to be 100% sure that you are buying a perfect car. I have no problem buying a BMW with 100k miles on the clock if it has been taken care of because they will run 100's past that and they hold there value well. I personally like to see them with over 60k miles due to the fact that you know the car is not a lemmon and is at the point where it is now broken in some what and ready to drive with out any supprise defects. When it came down to it though I would buy a used bmw 10 times over before I bought a ford. Personally I would buy a 95-06 M3 over an 06 GT any day if they were in good condition. That is just me though. Some people are just fans of Ford. But some thing to think about is today both cars are nice cars. But in 10 years what car will still be nice and still worth some thing. I to this day will see any year M3 wether it be a 88 or 95 and the car is still gorgeous and running fine. You see a 95 Gt it is just another piece of crap chugging down the road. It all really comes down to you. You are on a BMW board so you are going to get votes for the BMW. But we all know why you are here so when you buy your M3 make sure you take good care of it and post some pictures to show us your new ride. Welcome to the world of BMW and enjoy ;)

DRIVE HARD -eric

+1 to that...

As far as the e46 M3 itself is concerned. MAKE SURE THE ROD BEARING RECALL IS DONE. thats important and once done there is no more issue, and BMW has the hassle free engine replacement program in case you detonate. the previous owner of mine had it done so i am ok. Also, the service inspections should be up to date. inspection 1 within 30k miles, and inspection 2 between 55-85k miles. the number 2 inspection also included valve adjustment and after that you're set. all this is why an E46 M3 after 80k that is taken care of is your best bet. No other major issues. Also the car runs on 10W-60 synethetic oil which can get expensive but if you want to drive a real car, then thats what you do. In the end an E46 M3 would rape an 06 GT in all aspects of life no matter what. There is nothing a GT mustang can do that an M3 can't do better.

E46 M3 FTW!!!!!

If it was my choice I would go with the M3. I wouldn't even consider a Mustang. I know to many people who have had problems with them. This is just one example.

http://www.plzbuymylemon.com/

I was under the impression that if someone bought a performance car like this, they would be more inclined to do nasty things to it. It would be excellent if this was not the case.

One reason I'm looking harder at the BMW is because I'll only be traveling 6-8k miles/year for the next 5 years or so, and it doesn't make sense to me to swallow the depreciation on the Mustang.

XLR8R:

Thanks for the note on the recall. Two related questions:

- BMW seems to have added a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty to owners of the S54 engine. Do you know if this holds across owners?

- Is it typical or necessary that all service work was done at a BMW dealer?

- As per the rod recall: if they have NOT done it by now, is it too late? Does BMW still correct this problem free of charge? And would you recommend doing the oil lead test even if the work has been done?

You're both very helpful, thanks for the replies.

i bought a used m3....... an e36 that is:devillook

If it was my choice I would go with the M3. I wouldn't even consider a Mustang. I know to many people who have had problems with them. This is just one example.

http://www.plzbuymylemon.com/


unreal, At least this guy is having fun with the fact he bought a pile. Ford sucks...

I just bought a used one. If you can afford, by a certified used one from a dealer with warranty left. The one I just purchased is warrantied to 100k or 2009. That will give you some insurance. I asked my neighbor who was a mechanic at the local BMW dealership about the car before I bought it.

I asked him if they had any known issues, he said none. They never saw the M3's in for anything other than the initial rod recall of the 02's and early 03's. He said you could beat the piss out of the engine and it would ask for more. There is a reason for the price difference between a new Mustang and M3..

I was under the impression that if someone bought a performance car like this, they would be more inclined to do nasty things to it. It would be excellent if this was not the case.

One reason I'm looking harder at the BMW is because I'll only be traveling 6-8k miles/year for the next 5 years or so, and it doesn't make sense to me to swallow the depreciation on the Mustang.

XLR8R:

Thanks for the note on the recall. Two related questions:

- BMW seems to have added a 100,000 mile powertrain warranty to owners of the S54 engine. Do you know if this holds across owners?

- Is it typical or necessary that all service work was done at a BMW dealer?

- As per the rod recall: if they have NOT done it by now, is it too late? Does BMW still correct this problem free of charge? And would you recommend doing the oil lead test even if the work has been done?

You're both very helpful, thanks for the replies.


If you only drive 6-8k per year then you definately should buy a used luxury car. The e46 models seem to have a floor of about 17-20k as there is always a young enthusiast with money waiting to buy one. I've yet to see a 5 year old Mustang that fetched more than 7-9k, so you'll be paying less to drive the better car.

- If the rod bearing recall is not done yet you still get it done free of charge.

- The warranty transfers to any owner that has an 01-02 with less than 100k miles.

- It is not nescessary to do all your service work at a BMW dealer to keep the drivetrain warranty, buy as always it is STILL nescessary you maintain the car properly somewhere.

Thanks for the notes, Chim and Apollo.

I believe the SMG transmission was introduced for 2002. Many reviews state that it is difficult to drive smoothly, and that it takes some of the fun out of the car.

However, I've never driven a stick before. This will make it difficult to properly test drive and evaluate potential buys, and the SMG transmission is likely better at shifting than I can expect to be. Nonetheless, I am willing to learn.

Do you have any thoughts on SMG compared to the traditional manual?

i'd never buy another ford, not even if it was capable of hand jobs upon ignition.


besides, the mustang is a bloated fat oversteering pig.



you think the e46 is a fat piggie? shit, the 'stang is a goddamn hog- playing in the dirt.

The SMG is great. Like anything else that is new, it takes some time to learn how to drive it "well", but not an unreasonable amount of time. It is a lot of fun and very quick. Automatically matches revs for perfect down-shifts. Like I said, it's great.

I'd definitely, no questions asked, get the M3. You're getting a Bimmer. Would you rather have a refined German car or a (literally) piece-of-crap Ford? German engineering is inexplicably better than American engineering (even Chevy's new killer Z06 is not as "well"-built as German counterparts and will likely start falling apart after 80,000 miles).

Don't even think about it; get the M3. You will be so happy with your decision.

Regarding SMG versus 6-speed, I'd personally go with the conventional manual, but if you don't know how to drive manual and don't want to learn (it really only takes a few weeks to almost perfect, as I am doing now), you might want to get the SMG. However, SMG is not "true" manual, and the M3 is a sports car: don't you want a manual? The automatic mode in SMG reportedly sucks, but if you really don't feel like manually shifting, I suppose it'd work.

EDIT: If you don't want to fuck up your new clutch in the M3, you might wanna pick up a cheap, early-90s Civic as a beater/learning car for half a grand or so. Nothing worse than having a brand new car with a more-worn-than-normal clutch.

Like CHIM3 said, if you can afford it, try to get a certified pre-owned car. You'll pay a bit of a premium, but you'll be virtually assured that the car is free from major, otherwise-unforeseen problems. Otherwise, at the very least, ensure you get the car thoroughly checked out and take a lengthy test drive before purchasing it. The worst thing you can do is throw down $30,000+ on a lemon--and yes, even BMW makes a couple lemons here and there (every car company does; you should see the Japanese lemons!).

I'm not sure how realistic $25,000-$30,000 is for a really good-condition '01 M3 with relatively low mileage. I'd say $32,000 is more realistic, but others can probably elaborate.

Either way, good luck with your car hunt, and may the superior design and engineering of Bavarian cars inspire your decision. ;)

Yeah ohnoes is right on the money. Dont think twice, in the long run you will be much happier with the m3. Grab a manual, much more fun and its easy to learn if dont already know how. If you cant get one with a warrenty (usually 01s with warrenty will still bring in around 35k+), get one that has been well maintained. Valve adjustment ect (if over 50k miles). Look to spend 32+ for one without a warrenty in good shape.

although i think ohnoes is absolutly off his rocker in terms of his view of the z06.


corvettes are easily the exception to the rule regarding american engineering failures. they're built with an amazing amount of over engineering and design compared to any other american built car.

vettes from the 80's are still rocking out pretty hard. in no worse condition than anyone's e30 or e36 on this board.

Get the M3, but as for American cars I'd rather drive a LS2 GTO than the new mustang and I think both are hideous.

Get the M3, but as for American cars I'd rather drive a LS2 GTO than the new mustang and I think both are hideous.
if you mean the new gto, it uses an LS6.



...and you dont want it anyways... i've known 3 owners. i've known 2 that lemon law-ed theirs, and 1 that is trying.


all the other stories i hear are nightmares, too

I can see the Mustang doesn't hold much sway around here. :) I will test drive one anyway, but it's larger than my current ride. I want to avoid that if possible.

As to Corvettes, there are many 2000-2001 models in the $25K range, but the ones I've sat in feel like driving a hood. Too low. Fantastic stability control though.

I'd like to focus on '01 M3s with greater than 60,000 miles. That doesn't seem particularly low-mileage; most of them seem to be a negotiable 28-29k.

If there are any other comments you have, I'm always listening. I may repost this on 'M3forums.net' and see what they have to say.

Dave

Don't get confused- SMG is a true manual transmission, it just "pushes" the clutch in for you when you tell it to shift. And it does it lightning fast.

although i think ohnoes is absolutly off his rocker in terms of his view of the z06.


corvettes are easily the exception to the rule regarding american engineering failures. they're built with an amazing amount of over engineering and design compared to any other american built car.

vettes from the 80's are still rocking out pretty hard. in no worse condition than anyone's e30 or e36 on this board.

I guess only time will tell regarding the engineering of the Z06. I just wouldn't particularly trust those things past 80,000 or so miles. How do you know the mileage of all those 80's and 90's Vettes? I'm willing to bet that VERY few are in the low-to-mid 100,000 mile range and above. Most of those cars' owners probably used them as weekend drivers, not DD's. But I'm just speculating. I'm just curious to know how many Corvettes were driven hard and often.

Actually Z06 is not really the typical representative of American automotive engineering we may be used to. My cousin used to own one and as far as I know he drove it WELL above 200k before he sold it. Problem free except the normal wear and tear stuff. Vette/Z06s are fantastic cars and I believe even other king-of-the-hill type manufacturers, Porsche and the like, have a stiff competition against Z06.
I've met some people/ex-neighbors with vettes (C4 and C5 mainly) and the reason most of them have low mileage is because hardly it is their commuter and they just love it so much that they just sit in the car and not drive it out much. lol.. (I know.. but they say rock chips, door dings excuses). Anyways, sit in one, drive one HARD. You will appreciate and forever change your view on American engineering.

you guys are rough!

I love fords! I have owned several mustangs and have loved each one for what they are.

I currently have a 02' Supercharged Harley Davidson edition f-150. I love it! Its awesome! for what it is.

Now that being said, BMW is a whole new ballgame! The m-series is just plain sick. That is anyone that you may select, from the 635csi in the 1980's to days models.

I would go with the E46 M3 without a doubt. I have had mine [2002 model] for 2 months and have had zero problems. I bought with the bearing recall already done but no other records. It currently has 46k miles on it.

Their was one on ebay a couple of months ago a 2001 model with 230,000 miles on it! thats rights 230,000 miles and it went for $21k, that says alot for these cars.

The only downfall is once you own one you will never want anything but a BMW again!

I guess only time will tell regarding the engineering of the Z06. I just wouldn't particularly trust those things past 80,000 or so miles. How do you know the mileage of all those 80's and 90's Vettes? I'm willing to bet that VERY few are in the low-to-mid 100,000 mile range and above. Most of those cars' owners probably used them as weekend drivers, not DD's. But I'm just speculating. I'm just curious to know how many Corvettes were driven hard and often.
why would you buy a vette as a DD?


that's just stupid.

We went both the used route and SMG route for this race car. It's all good. :)

yeah it's a good idea to buy one so long as you are getting one that's been properly maintained over the years and has the service records to back it up! Also check to make sure it had any recalls, if applicable, taken care of-

I came up with a few more questions. :)

Regarding oil changes, transmission fluid, clutch replacement, 'tuneups', and the like:

Where can I find a list of scheduled maintenance items that have to be performed throughout the car's lifespan?

Is there a copy of BMW M3 owner's manual online anywhere?

And finally (for now), does a mechanic need to specially qualified to evaluation this car? Can dealerships evaluate used vehicles from other parties?


Dave

Oh, and one more question: What venues would you consider to buy one?

I've considered these:

BMW Dealers

Adv: Takes trade-in, offers CPO cars, some warranty expressed or implied
Dis: WAY overpriced; a 50k car from four years ago should not go for 40k

Ebay:

Adv: Good pricing, particularly with no reserve auctions
Dis: Down payment required before inspection? Difficulty in checking out car in advance

Autotrader/Car.com/Cars.com:

Adv: No time pressure like Ebay
Dis: More optimistic pricing

Classifieds

Adv/Dis: Same as above

The real problem with classifieds is that the aggregate online sources overlap with Autotrader.

Where else would you look?

Dave

i would not buy a car that i have not seen in person. if an ebay car really interests you, you should try to make arrangements to go see it and test drive it in person. i bought my Audi off ebay a few years ago and had my cousin and a friend who both went to see/test drive the car, and fax me a clean carfax of the car before i decided to buy. was it risky, yes, but did i get a great car at an amazing price, yes...

autotrader/classifieds? they work very similar to ebay.... you will probably be able to see the car inperson and/or test drive it without a deposit, which is a plus if you are a serious buyer, but those used car lots, or private party, if the car is a lemon, its harder to take action, because people move, and most cars there are sold as/is. without CPO, which i think is very important if you are buying a used car...

dealerships... well you explained it right there. they are harder to bargain with. i dont know why everyone says the M3 is a 50k car... ok

an m3 with NO options is 48,000..add tax and lisecning and all that crap you are gonna pay somewhere around 54k. now i know very very few people who have M3s with zero options, so i think its closer to a 60k car,,, and almost a 70k car. i paid 68,000 fully loaded every option, and that was with $1500 off the window price, which from what i hear is pretty rare. convertibles brand new will almost always run you 65-70k+...

but back to your question.

i recmmend an ebay dealership? gives you the relaiblity of a dealership, well its as reailable asits gonna get, with the discount pricing of autotrader/ebay?

there are many dozens of dealers on ebay who are also dealerships, just in other states, and many are luxury car dealerships, so they have experience with all luxury cars, audi, porsche, benz, bmw, etcetcetc....

my2cents.

i would not buy a car that i have not seen in person. if an ebay car really interests you, you should try to make arrangements to go see it and test drive it in person. i bought my Audi off ebay a few years ago and had my cousin and a friend who both went to see/test drive the car, and fax me a clean carfax of the car before i decided to buy. was it risky, yes, but did i get a great car at an amazing price, yes...

autotrader/classifieds? they work very similar to ebay.... you will probably be able to see the car inperson and/or test drive it without a deposit, which is a plus if you are a serious buyer, but those used car lots, or private party, if the car is a lemon, its harder to take action, because people move, and most cars there are sold as/is. without CPO, which i think is very important if you are buying a used car...

dealerships... well you explained it right there. they are harder to bargain with. i dont know why everyone says the M3 is a 50k car... ok

an m3 with NO options is 48,000..add tax and lisecning and all that crap you are gonna pay somewhere around 54k. now i know very very few people who have M3s with zero options, so i think its closer to a 60k car,,, and almost a 70k car. i paid 68,000 fully loaded every option, and that was with $1500 off the window price, which from what i hear is pretty rare. convertibles brand new will almost always run you 65-70k+...

but back to your question.

i recmmend an ebay dealership? gives you the relaiblity of a dealership, well its as reailable asits gonna get, with the discount pricing of autotrader/ebay?

there are many dozens of dealers on ebay who are also dealerships, just in other states, and many are luxury car dealerships, so they have experience with all luxury cars, audi, porsche, benz, bmw, etcetcetc....

my2cents.

He's back!

German engineering is inexplicably better than American engineering (even Chevy's new killer Z06 is not as "well"-built as German counterparts and will likely start falling apart after 80,000 miles).



But I'm just speculating.
Ignorance is bliss.

I got a Mustang rental while my car was being fixed, it was a basic V6 2006 white Mustang. To be honest I expected it to be a bad car, but not that bad. First impression, it feels big and high, and you feel like you are floating over the road. Second impression? lots of torque (short gears and final drive ratio).
I got it in the morning in a rainy day, and the first turn after leaving the rental shop I almost lost it, the car oversteered like hell with a little push on the gas.
I had fun driving her for 3 days oversteering with every turn in the city, and she loved it like an idiot, I called her the mad white cow and kinda got used to her, but then when I got my 325is 1995 and drove it back home I felt proud and lucky that I drive a real car, a BMW. 11 years old and not an M car, yet still 10 times better than the 06 Mustang.
I haven't tried the GT but if it has the same single axle suspension and the same differential with extra V8 torque then it wouldn't be a mad cow it will be a suicidal cow.

dont make me go into depth about how GM products are still worthless piles of mass producted POSes and you get what you pay for..

for the price of a mustang GT, you can buy a new 325i.

might be a bit slower, but much better put together.

GM just cranks em out with no regard to build quality, and the statement "woulda had em thru the twisties" is true.. except for maybe the Z06, and the cadillac CTSV, there is no GM car that is worth a second look.

Yes. For the right price