Hey whats up guys, I am looking into getting started into auto crossing, the thing is my car is a daily driver. I am looking into buying another car so I could have this as a "project car" to say. I was wondering what the negative effects of auto crossing could be. I am looking into getting Tokico coilovers or Ground Control. Also looking into getting a pair of sways from UUC.. Or any others that people have good reviews about and same with the coilovers. Sorry I didn't search for this I did not really know what to search.

Thanks
-Stefan

the negative effects are that you will continually dump more and more $ into your car.... then wife/gf will get pissed. :stickoutt

Haahaha very true... The reason I am not starting yet because bmw shocks sucks....

The reason I am not starting yet because bmw shocks sucks....

thats a weak reason:D ...start now and learn ur car w/the current set up, then go from there. unless they are completely done, then thats a diff story.

Haahaha very true... The reason I am not starting yet because bmw shocks sucks....
So? Driving a foul handling car isn't all that bad if you're not concerned with winning. ...and when you haven't figured out how to find a course yet, that's not a concern anyway.

thats a weak reason:D ...start now and learn ur car w/the current set up, then go from there. unless they are completely done, then thats a diff story.
+1.

I auto-x (and tracked) the M3 for 3+ years on the stock shocks.

Just do it, as the slogan goes :)

Jim

True, Sounds like a good idea I guess. Wanna fill me in on how to get started? I'm guessing the SCCA, right?

start off with the bmwcca events. they are usually more laid back than the scca ones.

start off with the bmwcca events. they are usually more laid back than the scca ones.
+1

I ran with both, and much preferred the local BMW chapter events. But then, I was there primarily to have fun, not get all "serious" and stuff :)

YMMV.

Jim

Go there to have fun. Dont expect to win or even be competitive the first couple of times out.

You only think you know how to drive right now. You are in for a big eye opener.

one negative effect is the possibility of wrecking your car. It's quite rare, but I know for a fact it does happen. I suppose it's less likely in places without light poles, curbs, or walls, but how many parking lots are completely open and bare?

But that would not stop me, and you may as well start out with a stock car. Your first few times you will suck anyway, no matter how good a driver you think you are. Autox is a learned skill, until you do it a few times you won't be good.

You should check out.

http://www.nccbmwcca.org

http://www.wdcr-scca.org/

http://members.cox.net/capitaldrivingclub/schedule.html

I wouldnt worry to much about damaging your car your there to learn to drive better not trash/thrash your car.

Please read.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562784

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=557045&highlight=money+pile

Pay close attention to post 6 in the last link. You should be good to go.

Yeah a negative would be crashing your car. That and getting hooked and spending a lot of money. I would start now though and get practice first. You will run in the stock class, so you won't be up against the guys that have done a ton of mods to their cars and are real fast.

I think you are also susceptible to the "Oil Nut" failure since you have an e36. I lost a motor this way. Not fun at all. You might want to have this checked or look into this a bit further. Not to mention I've gone through 2-3 vanos units since I've been racing. Not fun either. Parts are going to go bad when you stress the car out, you just have to decide if you have the money to replace tires, brakes, and anything else that could be catastrophic. If you can't afford to fix it if it breaks, you might want to rethink the hobby you're about to get into. Personally I love autoxing and hope to continue on for many years to come, but I do this realizing that there are no guarantees with this, and that I have a 2nd car incase this one gets damaged.

Hate to play devil's advocate here but it needs to be said :devillook

my car is stock, and i'm planning on trying to keep it that way. incidentally, the stock m3 times were in general faster than the modified m3 times at the last Los Angeles BMWCCA chapter autocross.:confused

I think you are also susceptible to the "Oil Nut" failure since you have an e36. I lost a motor this way. Not fun at all. You might want to have this checked or look into this a bit further. Not to mention I've gone through 2-3 vanos units since I've been racing. Not fun either. Parts are going to go bad when you stress the car out, you just have to decide if you have the money to replace tires, brakes, and anything else that could be catastrophic. If you can't afford to fix it if it breaks, you might want to rethink the hobby you're about to get into. Personally I love autoxing and hope to continue on for many years to come, but I do this realizing that there are no guarantees with this, and that I have a 2nd car incase this one gets damaged.

Hate to play devil's advocate here but it needs to be said :devillook

+1

Things that can go wrong with autocrossing that can damage your e36:

1) Collison with a [moving or stationary] car on course. (very low likelyhood of occurrence -- high repair $$$)

2) Collision with a stationary fixed object (ie. curb, concrete light pole base). (very low likelyhood of occurrence -- high repair $$$)

3) Collision with a stationary movable object (ie. steel parking lot sign). (same or higher likelyhood as hitting a curb, slight lower repair $$$ than above)

-- Note: any of the above could happen due to either driver error or car failure (suspension failure, brake failure, stuck accelerator, etc).

4) Car spins... failure to get 'both feet in'... engine turns backwards... engine breaks (oil pump nut failure or otherwise). (you *will* spin at some point in time if you autox, as a novice you might forget to get on the clutch soon enough -- high repair $$$)

Everything else is in the noise... ie. hitting cones breaks your fog lamp brackets, pork chops, etc.)

But it is a lot of fun. :D

My $.02

The whole oil nut thing... Anything to preventthings like that to happen?

wire it on.

+1

Things that can go wrong with autocrossing that can damage your e36:

1) Collison with a [moving or stationary] car on course. (very low likelyhood of occurrence -- high repair $$$)

2) Collision with a stationary fixed object (ie. curb, concrete light pole base). (very low likelyhood of occurrence -- high repair $$$)

3) Collision with a stationary movable object (ie. steel parking lot sign). (same or higher likelyhood as hitting a curb, slight lower repair $$$ than above)

-- Note: any of the above could happen due to either driver error or car failure (suspension failure, brake failure, stuck accelerator, etc).

or if you happen to get the car entirely sideways at a high rate of speed and your brakes are entirely useless. Unless the wheels are turning in the same general direction that the car is moving, brakes (and ABS) do not work. I guess this falls under "driver error" (for getting it sideways) but I never really considered it until I saw it happen. I always assumed the excellent BMW brakes would slow you down sufficiently in virtually any autox situation before contacting anything. Even so, it's a pretty rare occurrence.

I still don't under that the oil nut, will a debaffled oil pan help?

I still don't under that the oil nut, will a debaffled oil pan help?

There is a nut (reverse-threaded) that holds the cog on the oil pump shaft. The cog is driven by a chain off the crankshaft. This nut can work it's way loose, resulting in a loss of the oil pump being driven, so you would lose oil pressure completely, and the motor will rapidly seize/die. The nut can be tack-welded in place, safety-wired, or the threads deformed so as to completey ensure the nut remains in place, holding the cog on there. PS you already have a debaffled oil pan, e36 has it from the factory.:stickoutt A baffled oil pan would help control the flow of oil under certain lateral g-force conditions so as to ensure the oil consistently going back into the oil pump pick-up.

can anyone get a pictue to this oil nut?

any more information on the "both feet in" technique? I had no idea that this could damage something. (I've never spun the car before). But I have an idea of how it could cause damage. so what/other conditions do you want to push the clutch back in?

sheesh -- reading this thread would make a person think that autocrossing was more dangerous than _driving_ to the autocross. don't worry about anything. just go out there and have fun.

can anyone get a pictue to this oil nut?

Read here:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228123

And here (second pic shows the oil pump nut):

http://m3.digital7.com/oilpumpnut.php

any more information on the "both feet in" technique? I had no idea that this could damage something. (I've never spun the car before). But I have an idea of how it could cause damage. so what/other conditions do you want to push the clutch back in?

Yep. Leaving a manual tranny'd car in gear once you've 'lost it' can do bad stuff to the engine *if* the car rolls backwards, thus spinning the drivetrain/engine backwards. I have no idea how likely you are to damage the engine if this should happen, but it should be avoided, unless you're David Hasselhof and your car is named K.I.T.T.

More on both feet in:

Taken from: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=104165

The mantra of out-of-control race drivers has long been: "If you spin, both feet in." But those racing front-drive cars have a new slogan: "Gas it, dude!"

"If you spin, both feet in" reminds racers to pound both the brake and clutch pedals to the floor when all hope of catching a spin has evaporated. "Gas it, dude!" allows those in front-drivers to recover from seemingly impossible yaw angles and avoid spinning.

"If you spin, both feet in" accomplishes three things:
a) Locked brakes help scrub off speed before something hard is hit. Though not as effective as maximum straight-line braking, locked tires still rapidly slow a car. Every foot-per-second you shave off before reaching a concrete wall is a plus.
b) With brakes locked, a vehicle will continue in a straight line and be a predictable obstacle for those behind. If you're in the spinning car, you'll pray that it works and your competitors can avoid you. If the spinning driver does not lock the brakes, as soon as the car slows enough for the tires to regain traction, the car will dart in whichever direction the front tires are pointed. I once broke a fellow racer's leg when he shot out in front of me because he failed to keep his brakes locked. Severed him right.
c) Clutching it keeps the engine running. If you don't rip the wheels off the car and the engine is running you'll be able to grab a gear and get out of the way of the next pack of cars. This also prevents engine damage that may be caused by forcing the motor to revolve backward.

sheesh -- reading this thread would make a person think that autocrossing was more dangerous than _driving_ to the autocross. don't worry about anything. just go out there and have fun.

Well, I can't tell if your post is serious or not, but once you've been to enough autocrosses (it actually doesn't take more than a few), you've seen your share of incidents. The original poster wanted to know what the risks are, and I gave an honest, fair response.

Bottom line: autocrossing is a competitive, timed event where drivers push themselves and their cars to the limit.

Now, you don't *have* to drive to the limit to enjoy the experience, but most folks do exactly that. Also, when you're a newbie, its difficult to tell *where* the limit is. Thus, its easier to go beyond the limit of the car/driver combo.

I see you are in New Jersey. Here is a link to clubs in the northeast:
http://www.autox4u.com

From there you can find clubs in your area that host autox events.

I've had good experiences with the NNJR SCCA at Englishtown, NJ.

Scott

sheesh -- reading this thread would make a person think that autocrossing was more dangerous than _driving_ to the autocross. don't worry about anything. just go out there and have fun.
Around the Cincinnati/Dayton area, HART (Honda of America Racing Team) wrecked 3 S2000s in 2 years of auto-x, then again, those guys were complete idiots.

The only thing I have hit is a few cones which can leave a mark that will clean off.

The only thing I have hit is a few cones which can leave a mark that will clean off.
oh, almost forgot, the worst thing that happened to me at auto-x was brake failure on a WRX. Here I am in the water.

http://members.roadfly.com/jbgotm/swamp_cropped.jpg

just go and have fun, use it as learning experience on controling your car at the limit, don't worry about being fast at first because you won't be, it does get competitive and be sure your car is in good shape, i will say that it is very addictive.:cashwalle

oh, almost forgot, the worst thing that happened to me at auto-x was brake failure on a WRX. Here I am in the water.

http://members.roadfly.com/jbgotm/swamp_cropped.jpg
Ouch. That reminds me of the guy that jumped his dad's ZR1 into water...

sheesh -- reading this thread would make a person think that autocrossing was more dangerous than _driving_ to the autocross. don't worry about anything. just go out there and have fun.

:lol

No kidding, run what you brung, get out there, have fun.

Have some situational awareness, keep your eyes open, be cautious and the odds anything bad happening in a parking lot at 20-50mph are not very high.

Do you guys find yourselves having to downshift to first gear or pretty much once you're out of first you stay in 2nd or higher? First gear to me doesn't seem like its meant to be downshifted into quickly, as its much harder to rev match first / hard on synchros?

Anyone have synchro troubles in 1st after auto x'ing?

Just curious, I've never done it but I'd love to soon.

Depends on the course & car, but I can't recall really using 1st while out on the course. 2, 3, 4 seemed to be the more common ones.

Jim

I'm not in the Texas area, but I've never needed to go back to 1st, and I've never needed 3rd gear. Maybe someone from Texas can chime in if they run courses large enough for 3rd gear.

Scott

JUST SAY NO!!! RUN AWAY FROM THE LIGHT!!!

Kidding, of course. The biggest harm is not to the car. You WILL become addicted. You WILL need to participate. It WILL lead to driver schools, track events, and lots of fun.

For the most part, what's been said here about sums it up. The overall risk is minimal. Yes, you could hit something if you don't shut down when you screw up. Yes, your brakes could fail & you'll wind up in a pond. Just use common sense.
The biggest thing is making sure that your car is maintained. Don't expect to do 30 events in a year & wonder why you need brakes or ball joints. And things like tires become expendables, kinda like buying gas!

But before worrying about any of that, look your car over good. Make sure everything is tight. Brakes are good. Fluids are fresh & full. Your street tires have decent tread & are about 8 pounds above street pressure. Your lugs are ALL tight & properly torqued. Then run an event or two. You're in a good area, there are a lot of clubs that host events open to all makes. Speak up at those events. Let them know you're a novice driver. They'll walk the course with you. I've run several Philly region (SCCA) events & I know they have several instructors who'll ride along with you.

After you get addicted, try one of the novice schools hosted by the Philly or DC SCCA regions, maybe next Spring. Or the NJ BMW chapter. They all do a fine job of teaching the basics. Then spend a season in stock form (or as near as you are now.) Get some seat time. Continue to talk to the more experienced drivers & learn from them. WATCH their runs whenever you can. Ask to ride along on fun runs.

There are very few (none?) beginning drivers capable of driving their car to it's limits. Once you're consistent & faster than more than a couple of people, start thinking about mods. It's amazing how many times new performance drivers spend money or their cars, only to find out AFTER they learned to drive that the money was wasted or at least mis-directed. Spend the money on the nut behind the wheel first!

And, most importantly, have fun!

Do you guys find yourselves having to downshift to first gear or pretty much once you're out of first you stay in 2nd or higher? First gear to me doesn't seem like its meant to be downshifted into quickly, as its much harder to rev match first / hard on synchros?

Anyone have synchro troubles in 1st after auto x'ing?

Just curious, I've never done it but I'd love to soon.

Usually you can pull off staying in second, especially the guys with geared down diff's or plenty of torque. There will be some courses with really slow 180's and such where you might need 1st gear, but I've never found myself having to slam it in quickly, you can take your time getting her back into 1st while going around the turn and then let the clutch out on your way out.

I always thought it would feel really hard on the car - but if you just take your time and push it in softly it will be fine.

There are certainly driving techniques that will make it easier on the car too - if your car doesn't like going back into gear, double clutch, rev match, heel-toe... get creative.

every course i have ran had been all in second gear, although i do hit the rev limiter in some faster sections.

I have used 1st in a few autoxs in the last couple years on very tight 180s. I haven't gone to first since I put the 373 in (I think). I have also been in events where I was well into 3rd.

Sorry, didn't read any of the previous posts, so hope this isn't too redundant. However i'd just like to say that i had the same concern as you, and my car is a daily driver. I've been auto x'ing for the past year and a half, and have been to about 6 events. If you are going in hot weather, you run the risk of your tires wearing out a lot faster than compared to daily driving, but the wear isn't that significant. If you keep your car well maintained, you should not have any abnormal problems due to autox specifically. Go out and enjoy it. Oh yeah, and it's addicting too.