My last track session at my DE yesterday at Summit Point was cut short because of serious brake fade. I was using stock pads on my e30, and they were starting to annoy me at how little initial bite they had even early in the day. By the end, they were toast. I figured it was just heat fade, but I took a front wheel off and I was completely metal on metal. I had to really nurse the car home and leave lots of stopping distance. Okay, so two questions:

1) What's a good upgrade from stock pads for a car that's primarily driven to, from and on the track? Looking for something a little more aggressive, but not so much that I can't stop when they're relatively cold.

2) Both front calipers were like little piggies - squealing all the way home. They were making sounds even when I was off the brakes. It got louder the longer I drove. Does this mean the calipers are siezed, or is there something else going on here?

Hawk HP+ are a good street pad that works at the track. Get new stock rotors and HP+ for the front. You can get HP+ for the rear, too, but given how much braking the rear does, you'd probably be okay with some OE rears or Hawk HPS.

Also, flush and replace your brake fluid - that may have been part of your problem as well. ATE Super Blue is common, Motul if you want. I use Valvoline Synpower (cheap and at discount stores everywhere) and it has boiling points very near the Super Blue - never had issues with it.

The squealing might have been your shot pads - cant imagine the calipers themselves squealing.

david,

what I did when I had the e30 was this

Cabotechs XP9/XP8
25mm master cylinder
rebuilt calipers
cooling kit

Brakes felt awesome at VIR/MidOhio. Not so good for one or two autocrosses I did, especially during the first run. I guess they were streetable, but I didn't have to make any panic stops. I don't recall the noise factor, but I don't think I cared that much, it was not a daily driver.

I think the current owner (SHADYB) is running different pads at least in the front.

I'm looking at either Axxis Ultimates or HP+. Ultimates seems to be a little more targeted for the street. I don't really drive this car on the street a whole lot, though, so I dunno. :dunno

I'm using ATE Superblue right now. Def needs a flush though. I was using those stock pads for all they were worth. :D I might check out the Valvoline Synpower. Superblue is expensive and not available in many places.

Jason, I thought about a bigger master cylinder. But I decided that if I ever move to spec e30 I don't want to downgrade the braking.

david,


rebuilt calipers
cooling kit



Both good ideas. I assumed (but did not say) a caliper rebuild given what he described. Oops on my part.

HP+ > Axxis, especially if its mainly a track car.

1. Opinions on brake pads are like, well, you know, everyone has one.

Bunch o possibilities:

Carbotech: bobcat thru XP8 will be streetable and better than what you have now.

Hawk: HP+ is streetable and probably better than what you have now. Most Hawk race pads are NOT streetable.

Axxis Ultimate: a street pad that works OK for some people on the track.

Porterfield R4S: a street pad that works OK for some people on the track.

Porterfield R4: a race pad that works OK on the street in warm weather.

There are lots of other choices too, however, I would avoid anything from the chain auto stores and that british outfit that started out making motorcycle pads. In fact, I've never been happy with any british pads (ferodo or mintex) but other people are.

2. Noise. My opinion: get used to it. Quiet brakes are for soccer moms. Might as get used to the dust too. In my experience all trackable pads dust. Its the price you pay for actually being able to stop.

Or just run a real track pad. I've never had any trouble driving track pads on the street. Just drag them a bit when you pull out of your driveway and you're good.

Ultimates sucked on my E46 M3. Granted, much heavier and faster car, but... Never used Hawks.

Hawk HP+. end of story.

I was running Hawk HPS this past weekend on Saturday and went to mush and I was standing on the pedal to stop. A bleed and HP+ swap in, and Sunday felt great, and I've been on HP+'s plently of times and they did well. Advanced guys are running HT-10s with R comps, but for Street tires, I don't imagine HP+ to let you down. Hell, Charlie still swore by HP+ even in A group, and has he ran RA-1s with them.

I'd heard people complain about Axxiss Ultimates at the track, some praise them. Carbotechs I hear praise of, but $$$.

I use HPS in the back, but have ran Axxiss Ultimates too. Whatever. ATE Super Blue as well.

Solid discs work well and are DAMN cheap.

Brake ducting to cool if you need if, and improve pad life. I guess one could get 3-4 weekends out of HP+... if tech doesn't demand they be 75%. (or swap them after tech, hehe)

25mm will make pedal feel stiffer... :shifty that's about it...

I'm using ATE Superblue right now. Def needs a flush though. I was using those stock pads for all they were worth. :D I might check out the Valvoline Synpower. Superblue is expensive and not available in many places.

I'm pretty sure Ate's boiling point is higher than Valvoline.

Ate superblue is not expensive. Castrol SRF is expensive, but even SRF is cheaper than the smallest amount of bodywork.

OG Racing carries Ate brakefluid. I generally buy all my fluids from them because I have it the next day even with lowest cost shipping option.

Olympic auto parts sometimes has Ate.

oh yeah,

Bimmerworld has great prices on HP+ fronts / HPS rears, and carries ATE Super Blue or the Type 2000 (clear).

I usually click up an order every season or whenever I'm in need, and get a confirmation email immediately, a shipping notification soon, and delivery within a few days.

buy a Pressure Bleeder if you don't already own one (most do)

alll sound advice.....


I run ATE, and carbo tech xp 8's like Kupe and ultimates in rear.........fine on street.. and I get like 6 schools( or more) on the xp's


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/1999z3/MAY20200520069.jpg

Great stuff, guys. Couple more follow-ups:

1. How difficult is it to rebuild calipers? Rebuild kits are so damn cheap compared to new calipers. Also, how do I determine if I have ATE or Girling calipers?

2. Are the prices for pads at Bimmerworld per wheel or per axle? I guess I could call them...

Joel, great roundup on brake pads. My stock pads were at 50% thickness after 1 year of moderate street driving and 4 track days (my first 4 days, so I was slow). The last 50% was gone after 7 30-min sessions. Because I was so much faster this time out, I really don't know if the last 50% is really that bad, or if I just wore them down because of consistently heavier braking. Probably both.

I'll probably go with HP+ if they really are only $70 for both front wheels. Looks like a fairly inexpensive experiment.

Great stuff, guys. Couple more follow-ups:

1. How difficult is it to rebuild calipers? Rebuild kits are so damn cheap compared to new calipers. Also, how do I determine if I have ATE or Girling calipers?

2. Are the prices for pads at Bimmerworld per wheel or per axle? I guess I could call them...

Joel, great roundup on brake pads. My stock pads were at 50% thickness after 1 year of moderate street driving and 4 track days (my first 4 days, so I was slow). The last 50% was gone after 7 30-min sessions. Because I was so much faster this time out, I really don't know if the last 50% is really that bad, or if I just wore them down because of consistently heavier braking. Probably both.

I'll probably go with HP+ if they really are only $70 for both front wheels. Looks like a fairly inexpensive experiment.


1. Not that hard. Name should be stamped on the caliper
2. Pads are sold in sets of 4 (for two corners)

..and if you have ATE.....


.......get the caliper guide upgrade at BW. Ive heard they are a nice upgrade..I run girling so I cant use em.:(

I believe DaveCN's 14yo? son is rebuilding his calipers for him, so it can't be that hard...

BW's prices are for an axle (four pads for both sides of each rotor).
So like $120 something plus shipping for Hawk HP+/HPS front and rear, respectfully.

Hawk pads are noisy, but get used to it. I hear CRC Red Goo is good for shutting them up, but I run nothing at the moment and live daily driving.

FWIW, I started out running Porterfield R4's which they bill as a street/track pad.They were fairly quiet on the street and worked pretty well cold. This was OK for my first couple DE's, but once I started getting faster they would fade badly by the end of a session. After an instructor told me to "get some real pads" I switched to Hawk HT10's 2 DE's ago and it was a huge improvement - so dramatic that it took quite a while to not throw me and the instructor into the dash. This is standard B-group DE stuff, I am not doing any crazy late braking or anything on them, but so far they have great stopping power, crazy initial bite, and they don't seem to overheat or fade.

I drive them to and from the track and on the street some as well -they are very loud. The rear's lack the spring clip that holds them to the piston, so they rattle around in the carrier over the slightest bump, adding to the symphony of squealing. They dust fairly heavily, but so far it seems to come of the wheels fine, even when igonored for a bit. It's all worth it on the track where they are great and I have more confidence under braking. The car sees very little street time and I'm in SoCal so it's generally not too cold. I'm using ATE superBlue/Type 200, with stoptech stainless lines, rebuilt calipers, ATE powerslot rotors (not much difference from the normal ATE's), stock master cylinder, no ducting(yet). I switched to the ATE calipers and the brass caliper guide. Not a lot of difference to me at this point between them and the girlings. BTW, I do a complete flush and rebed the pads before each track event, which I would recommend, especially if the car is driven on the street.

As JoelG said, I think you do have to make a choice between stopping on the track(noisy, dusty) or working well on the street (low noise, low dust). Besides, to keep up with all the M cars in the faster run groups, I find the hang on and pray technique works better than braking anyway.:D

Hope that helps some.

I believe DaveCN's 14yo? son is rebuilding his calipers for him, so it can't be that hard...

Is that a good idea?? :D


Hawk pads are noisy, but get used to it. I hear CRC Red Goo is good for shutting them up, but I run nothing at the moment and live daily driving.

The Red Goo works for the weekend and a little after, then its no help.

Besides, to keep up with all the M cars in the faster run groups, I find the hang on and pray technique works better than braking anyway.
I know what you mean. I'm in an eta. :eyecrazy You gotta brake late (and not much) get on the gas and try to ignore your instructor's gasps and prayers. :D It's fun reeling in cars with 100hp more than me, even if it is the green group. :devillook

wludavid, I used to slot my discs and run EBC Green Stuff pads and that still didn't make me a champion.

I used to ride the brakes (brake gently at first to bleed some speed and then brake hard for the corner) and on one occasion this even led to my balancing weights of the mags melting off when I parked in the pits.

After I changed my breaking style to : accelerate, at the last moment go off accelerator and then hit the brakes hard (apply brakes for the shortest possible time to prevent heat build up), then release brakes and turn into corner.

Once I mastered this technique I only used standard 260mm discs with new BMW orignal pads for my track days. While you may not have the ultimate stopping power, my braking distances were still excellent compared to most cars on track and I never experienced major brake fade even during long sessions. After a long hard day of driving the pad still had about 60-70% of its life, enough to get you home and drive a month until the next track day.

I used DOT 4 brake fluid (nothing too fancy) and just bled the brakes the day before the track day. No fancy brake cooling ducts either, just standard stuff.

With this setup I could keep up with experienced E46 M3 drivers around my favourite track (used semi-slicks on my Alpina B3 ; M3 on road tyres).

While I'm not trying to discourage you from buying something better than standard, I just want to point out that plenty fun can be had and maybe just look at your braking style.

Besides, to keep up with all the M cars in the faster run groups, I find the hang on and pray technique works better than braking anyway.:D



My last weekend, when I was really getting the hang of things, my instructor tried a few times to use that invisible brake pedal on the passenger side. :D

Andreas, I certainly respect (and generally adhere) to the philosophy that you should learn on stock equipment, then graduate to go-fast stuff once you've already mastered your car. However, stock pads weren't designed with performance parameters that included making what are essentially panic stops from 110 -> 50 mph once a minutes for 30 minutes. And unfortunately there's not much you can change your style to ease those demands. It's just A LOT of heat and friction. And sure, I can put a new set of $50 pads on for every weekend, or I can spend $70 and do 2-3 weekends (or more) on a set of track pads. There's not much in track driving that's cheaper, better, and less labor-intensive, so I'll take the gains where I can.

Besides, if we all waited to "master our cars" before upgrading, everyone but Michael Schummacher would be driving a bone stock car on the track. :)

Everything is a compromise. You want to stop with confidence and really test the limits of braking? Then go through the trouble of changing to a proper track pad (Hawk HT-10 etc), it is worth it. If you want a pad that is decent on the track and somewhat noisy on the street get a street/track pad like a Hawk HPS. Really there is no such thing as a street/track pad in my mind but if you don't drive like a nutter then this pad will be pretty good for you. Stock pads might be fine for your first couple of schools but honestly unless you drive like a pansy you will need to upgrade, especially in a heavier car. Use a good brake fluid (ATE super blue is fine for schools, only track I ever had a problem was Road America), I use Motul 600 now and never have had a problem but it costs more. Castrol SRF is a waste of money if you ask me but is good stuff. Add brake ducting, you're ready to go.

wludavid, I used to slot my discs and run EBC Green Stuff pads and that still didn't make me a champion.

EBC -- that was the company name I couldn't remember. Yuk. I used a set of their red compound on the back of my car once and I got 2-3 sessions out of them on VIR South, which is a hard course for brakes, but even so thats just not acceptable.

Some other general comments:

As a pad gets thinner it wears faster because there is less heat sink. In other words the first 50% of a pad will last a lot longer than the 2nd.

Rebuilding calipers is easy. I generally bring them in the house to do it since anythings easier when you don't have sweat running in your eyes and mosquitoes biting you. Besides its easier to keep them clean there. It was a little frustrating at first but now I can do it 5 minutes or so, once its off the car.

While you can probably get away with running most race pads in CA or in the summer in the rest of the country don't try it in the winter. I had a near disaster with R4 a long time ago on a 0 degree F day.

Wear pretty much depends on the driver, however cooling is another big factor. A couple weeks ago in the 12 Hours at the Point running my ITS E30 we got 8 hours out of a set of XP10s . They weren't quite to the rivets yet but I thought it was better to get them changed while it was still light. This was with 3" ducts and BW backing plates. XP9 rears lasted the whole 12 hours with plenty to spare.

wludavid, I re-read you original post and see that my reply only tries to give some advice on your misfortune with the standard brakes.

I see now that you actually are asking for advice with regards to upgrading, sorry.

I don't know if they are available for the e30 but I tried some Ferodo DS2500 pads on my M3 CSL for a track day and was very happy with their performance. They don't squeal and the salesperson told me that the compound won't eat into the disc (something to consider when buying track day brake pads).

As for my e30 Alpina B3 2.7, it is getting a serious brake upgrade as it is being converted into a pure track car.

It's really up to your tastes/situation and desire what to go with.

On one hand, there are HT-10s and R comps (once a driver is past novice level), that are definitely up to snuff on the track. And then have either a second daily driver, or cheap street pads and All-seasons to get you around when not on track.

Or, one could drive around all three seasons with some sticky, low treadwear tires like a Falken Azenis sport or Hankook RS-2, and a street/track pad like HP+'s. Sure, you will replace tires quickly, but have one less set. And your brakes are noisy and over-the-top for the roadway, but you can just arrive and drive at Auto-Xes and track days.

Certainly compromises exist between performance, convenience, and cost.
I just know that I've been able to daily drive on Hawk pads and Azenis, attend an Auto-X or track day every weekend for the last month, and looking forward to the same, and just unload my car and run. (and throw my boxes in my car and drive home)

Well said rwh11385, I see we have similar tastes. Once you've felt your car at its best with the performance bits on, you want that handling all the time.

I used to run my Alpina B3 with semi-slicks on a daily basis even though they made a lot of road noise and only last 5000km (incl. 2 track days). Both my cars have very stiff suspensions and you "feel" the road surface - annoying for some, a pleasure for me.

My stock pads were at 50% thickness after 1 year of moderate street driving and 4 track days (my first 4 days, so I was slow). The last 50% was gone after 7 30-min sessions. Because I was so much faster this time out, I really don't know if the last 50% is really that bad, or if I just wore them down because of consistently heavier braking. Probably both. I think the less pad material there is the quicker they wear. With more pad material there is more mass and thus a larger heat sink. As the pads wear down they have less mass to sink the heat and the pads run hotter, wearing down faster. Of course I could be way off on this.

If it were me I'd go with a dedicated track pad up front. I tried Ultimates on my 540 but they sucked. Glazed at the track and sqealed on the street. Granted, the 540 weighed about as much as a hippopotamus, so you might have better luck.

On my m3 I run stock pads on the street and swap out the fronts for Carbotech XP10s on the track. I change the pads the night before, drive to and from the track, and swap them back at the end of the weekend. I don't have any problems with the XP10s on the street, other than they are noisy as hell. There's not much bite for the first cold stop, but after that they are fine the rest of the way.

buy a Pressure Bleeder if you don't already own one (most do)

personally, ive always used speed bleeders. less things to haul for the track. besides, there under $25 for all corners.

cheers, jason

I've seen and thought about them, but not sure on trusting them. I assume they've worked fine for you then?

The bleeder isn't too large to fit in my track box and that container just plops in my trunk. (see sig)

I assume they've worked fine for you then? The bleeder isn't too large to fit in my track box and that container just plops in my trunk. (see sig)

yea, ive used them on a few e30's. really easy to use. they work exactly the same as stock bleeders......its just they have a one way check valve when in the open position.

unfortunately, the trunk opening is smaller on the m3....so the tupperware boxes dont fit very easily.

cheers, jason