Maybe you guys could enlighten me. Most everyone on the forums says they are maintenence heavy, and you should have a hefty budget to take care of them properly.

What makes them so damn costly to maintain? Let's assume I were to do most of my own work, so say I take care of all general maintenence such as brakes, oil changes, valve adjustments, any fluid flush, basically anything short of ripping the head off etc. I've never been past the valves in any of my past cars, although I've removed my fair share of trannies for swaps and such.

I know the s14's can be tempermental and require frequent little things. How much worse would an m3 be to maintain than say an e30 325is?

I've been kicking the idea of an M3 around a little bit(E30 or E36). I know which I'd rather drive, and I know which one is smarter to drive as a college student. I'm kind of looking for people to scare me out of the E30 you might say.

Last, I'll say that I really don't mind messing around under the hood occasionally. As a matter of fact I enjoy it, as long as it's by choice.

If you DIY, it won't cost an arm and a leg. Maybe just your hand! :D

www.s14.net (http://www.s14.net) has a lot of info on these cars. For one thing the valves require adjustment every 20K and the timing parts need to be replaced as your car gets higher mileage (probably I'd start thinking of doing this around 140 - 150K). The car is super expensive if you have to take everything into a specialist garage.

It is affordable if you do everything yourself. The maintenance parts like cap & rotor and engine parts are way more expensive than the M20 and M42 (coil, no dist) motors. It's cheap in comparison to a Porsche though. :D

Maybe you guys could enlighten me. Most everyone on the forums says they are maintenence heavy, and you should have a hefty budget to take care of them properly.

What makes them so damn costly to maintain? Let's assume I were to do most of my own work, so say I take care of all general maintenence such as brakes, oil changes, valve adjustments, any fluid flush, basically anything short of ripping the head off etc. I've never been past the valves in any of my past cars, although I've removed my fair share of trannies for swaps and such.

I know the s14's can be tempermental and require frequent little things. How much worse would an m3 be to maintain than say an e30 325is?

I've been kicking the idea of an M3 around a little bit(E30 or E36). I know which I'd rather drive, and I know which one is smarter to drive as a college student. I'm kind of looking for people to scare me out of the E30 you might say.

Last, I'll say that I really don't mind messing around under the hood occasionally. As a matter of fact I enjoy it, as long as it's by choice.

I think the "high maintainence" tag is based on the rougher life these cars can lead and need for more routine maintainence. Some of the special M3 parts aren't any more prone to failure than a regular E30, but they are more expensive. Plus, when people buy M3s, they usually want to "replace everything" which can cost thousands, but not much more than any other 80's German car.

the S14 can be more tempermental, but if it gets regular maintainence it can be bulletproof. I think a lot of the "little things" that pop up are the results of neglect and age of the cars.

An S14 is more prone to detontation and is more stressed than an M20 - duh. Therefore, you've got to take care of intake leaks, vacuum leaks and ignition/fuel problems like any other car, but you've got less margin for error. The cooling system is as solid as any BMW, and there's no plastic impellar issue to worry about. You do have to make sure you use BMW OEM parts though. The bottom end and valvetrain are robust - the DTM versions put up to 10,000 RPM and 2.5L displacement without breaking a sweat.

All that being said, an M3 is not a Honda, it's not an E36/E46 and it will cost you around a grand for upkeep a year (these cars are at least 15 years old). It would be tough but not impossible for a college student if you've got cash. It's as reliable as any E30, as far as I'm concerned.

-Bryant

Cost of parts can get more expensive as well:

Rotors on a 325is - $30 per side
Rotors on an M3 - $60 per side

CAB's, Control Arms, Clutch etc all follow suit.

And so on and so forth.

Will

If you compare the maintenance parts between a E36 M3 and an E30 M3, there's not a huge difference in price.

Offset CABs for both E36 and E30 are around $60
Front rotors are around $60
Yes, the waterpump is around $200 for the E30, and $70 for the E36 (Geniune BMW, not OEM or aftermarket)
Clutch kit ~$400 for E30, $300 for E36

Of course, the E36 M3 doesn't require valve adjustment, but if your lifters are super noisy by around 150K, you'd have to replace them at a cost of around $360. Vanos unit is around $400. Moneyshift = $3000. HAHAHA. Just kidding.

What I'm getting at is that M3s are going to cost more money to maintain no matter if it is an E30, E36, or E46. The E30 is older, so it will just require more maintenance off the bat if the car wasn't maintained well by its previous owner.

that said anyone want a M3 rotor (as in cap and rotor?) ive got one sitting around forever since i sold my car. $30 shipped, pm for details

Yeah, and stuff for it is sometimes harder to find than just your local junkyard or dealer.

Alright, so far you guys aren't doing a good job of scaring me straight...:-), I was expecting worse.

It doesn't seem like general maintenence is going to be a concern for me. I can easily budget 1000/year for general stuff.

My next questions is how often do you guys have to fix it WHEN IT BREAKS. I need to rely on the car a little bit, as it will be my daily but all I need it to do is start and get me to school 5 days a week. I probably drive 100 miles or less per week. I drive spiritedly, but only to a degree.

Would I really be looking for trouble getting into a decent E30 m3?

I don't think there is anything to be scared of. its just like any other car. I would recomend you find one thats been taken care of. If not, thats where it gets expensive because obviously you need to catch up on the maintnance that wasn't done.
Mine has never left me stranded.
$1000/yr is enough for one in top condition already. if your a DIY.

you should be fine. the E30M3 is expensive when serious engine, steering rack and body panels issues are concerned (rare parts that are easily available from BMWAG). other than that, if youre a good diyer - budget around 1200 -1500 annually - youll do well.

trick is to first find a well sorted car that hasnt been messed with. theyre getting rare. good luck.

I'm not too worried about body panel issues.

I'm most worried about motor trouble over anything. I know s14's can be very stout, but they seem hit or miss...and I couldn't afford to miss.

Little things that go here or there with some warning don't worry me one bit. Catastrophic failures requiring the head to come off or that incapacitate the car make me nervous.

This is the only real reason the e36 is up for consideration...and of course nobody minds a little torque once in a while ;-)

Alright, so far you guys aren't doing a good job of scaring me straight...:-), I was expecting worse.

It doesn't seem like general maintenence is going to be a concern for me. I can easily budget 1000/year for general stuff.

My next questions is how often do you guys have to fix it WHEN IT BREAKS. I need to rely on the car a little bit, as it will be my daily but all I need it to do is start and get me to school 5 days a week. I probably drive 100 miles or less per week. I drive spiritedly, but only to a degree.

Would I really be looking for trouble getting into a decent E30 m3?

These cars are absolute sh!t for commuting, They don't like to idle in the heat and they command your attention every minute. Wake up late and try to push it cold, no good. Plus, you will be super-duper pissed when the door gets dinged.

As a college student in an E30M3 you will have to account for at least one ticket from a Jealous cop with will totally fuxor your insurance.

On top of that, driving an E30M3 every day is like standing in line at the club wearing dancing shoes and a vodka buzz. You just want to get out there and get your freak on, but your only doing 15mph in traffic. F to the K all damn day.

Yeah, leave it in the parking lot at school. :nono

Get a 1000 volvo for the weekday grind and keep the M for the weekends. Like me.:D

Can't afford that, then don't do it.

These cars are absolute sh!t for commuting, They don't like to idle in the heat and they command your attention every minute. Wake up late and try to push it cold, no good. Plus, you will be super-duper pissed when the door gets dinged.

My commute will be 5 minutes tops...don't have to worry about extreme heat or extreme cold here in San Diego either. I don't mind letting my car warm up a bit on cooler mornings. I do it anyway. I usually park my cars far away from others or next to something retarded expensive to avoid door dings. If my car goes down, it takes a Bentley with it.

As a college student in an E30M3 you will have to account for at least one ticket from a Jealous cop with will totally fuxor your insurance.

The cops down here aren't too bad. I know you're being semi-sarcastic, but the police have better things to do around here than hassle me. I can still take traffic school too :-)

On top of that, driving an E30M3 every day is like standing in line at the club wearing dancing shoes and a vodka buzz. You just want to get out there and get your freak on, but your only doing 15mph in traffic. F to the K all damn day.

I've always driven quirky, uncomfortable cars. The e30 m3 is a luxury car coming out of 240z's. This characteristic just comes with the car, and is something I can deal with. You learn to love that kind of stuff over time.

Get a 1000 volvo for the weekday grind and keep the M for the weekends. Like me.

Can't afford that, then don't do it.

Funny you mention that, because to overcome the impracticality, I was thinking about a cheap little 325e or 318i(maybe even an e21 or 325i if I could find one) to drive daily. I also have the shuttle that runs by my house as my backup car.

dude e30s aint that hardcore man, ive done plenty of work on em.... u make em seem like some badass race car thats made street legal.
maybe a 240 horse evo with no options straight outa germany, but what we got here... no way, just a lil more ruff than a e36...

you want ruff? drive a sr20 240 like he said!

dude e30s aint that hardcore man, ive done plenty of work on em.... u make em seem like some badass race car thats made street legal.
maybe a 240 horse evo with no options straight outa germany, but what we got here... no way, just a lil more ruff than a e36...

you want ruff? drive a sr20 240 like he said!


I think Onrailsm3 was pretty much right on when he described the driving experience in traffic and whatnot. I've driven enough E30 M3's to know that its not a bother to me.


That being said, I'll add this to the mix:

I'm absolutely positive I want an E30 m3 despite the rough nature of the car based on driving plenty of m3's and owning my E30 325is for 2 years.

I'm simply trying get objective, honest opinions to find out whether I can handle and rely on an M3 both monetarily and maintenencewise. Based on quizzing you guys I'll hopefully be able to make an accurate decision. I just didn't want to kid myself if I couldn't trust an E30 m3.

The impression I have so far is that maintenence and upkeep isn't too bad as long as I pay attention unless something major comes up and then I'm in for some hurt.

The only thing I have left to convince myself of is that it is unlikely that something major will go wrong if I find a well sorted car despite the fact that I drive spiritedly on occasion.

My opinion, at only 100 miles a week, $1,000 per year budgeted maintenance might just be ample. I usually go 500-700 miles per week, so my experience is that any used german car is expensive to maintain, especially when flogged nearly every time driven. 100 miles per week, that's only 1 oil change per year at 5K interval (synthetic)! I'd say get the E30 M3 after a thorough pre purchase inspection, and enjoy every minute of owning it! Worst case, something major goes bad, you have to incur some debt to pay for repair, and pay it off in time. It's not the end of the world.

Good luck!
Jason

On top of that, driving an E30M3 every day is like standing in line at the club wearing dancing shoes and a vodka buzz. You just want to get out there and get your freak on, but your only doing 15mph in traffic. F to the K all damn day.




hahaha true dat! well said, dance baby dance!

Worst case, something major goes bad, you have to incur some debt to pay for repair, and pay it off in time. It's not the end of the world.

This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I want to own my car, not have it own me. I mean I wouldn't have to go into debt to keep it running, even if the motor went, but dropping 7 grand on a new S14 isn't exactly ideal, especially for a soon to be grad student.

5 minute commutes are horrible for the s14. They run full rich for the first 2 minutes and you are barely going to get the coolant up to temp let alone the oil.

ehh... i dont really think that any commute will feel right to any s14 driver.... jus because of the fact that s14 are like newborn babies.... and not cheap.... everyone wants to baby all e30 m3's... untill you put it at its right place... playing at 5000-6400 RPM...

5 minute commutes are horrible for the s14. They run full rich for the first 2 minutes and you are barely going to get the coolant up to temp let alone the oil.


Yeah, I'll probably be using the shuttle for a good bit of my "commuting."



So assuming I maintain an S14 well, how much abuse can these motors take? When I say abuse, I'm not referring to kissing the rev limiter before every shift...but just general use daily driving with some canyon carving once in a while.

From what I've read, most S14's are done before 170k miles so to find one that will last me a few years, I'd have to find low low mileage or find one that's been rebuilt already. Agree or disagree?


**By the way guys, these replies are REALLY helpful. Thanks and keep them coming!

Well my 73k motor needed a new bottom end (new rods and bearings) over the winter...to the tune of about 6k but i had some head work done and some other little things. Once you get near the internals of the motor things get expensive quickly.

You must be very dilligent about intake leaks. they are fairly common too.

5 minute commutes are horrible for the s14. They run full rich for the first 2 minutes and you are barely going to get the coolant up to temp let alone the oil.

I don't buy that statement. They only run full rich when they are dead cold. After that, no worries for the most part. Why is it so 'horrible' for the S14? Is it also as bad for the M50/S50's? SR20DET? Why or why not? Do you have first handle knowledge of this or just propogating an internet myth?

Well my 73k motor needed a new bottom end (new rods and bearings) over the winter...to the tune of about 6k

New rods and bearings cost you $6k? Christ, tap on another $1k and you can get a full rebuild up this way.

Will

to the tune of about 6k but i had some head work done and some other little things

that also included a new oil pump, stage 2 head, subframe reinforcements, motor mounts, radiator, evo valve springs...

the reason I say that it is horrible is because you are never going to get the oil up to proper operating temperature, not just because it is running rich.


I don't like the word "Default" it implies that the DME is of newer
generation. That it has OBD capabilities, fault registry and adaptation
abilities. This computer although sufficient, is DUMB by comparison with
even say a 90-91 M-20 325i. It is just programmed to run almost dead rich
(if you unplug the NTC #2, you will really see dead rich!) whilst cold.


Don Fields
////MrMCar

----- Original Message -----
From: "Langsten" <langsten@comcast.net>
To: "tim ng" <s14realm3@hotmail.com>
Cc: <e30m3-list@bimmers.com>
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 22:10
Subject: Re: [M3] O2 sensor when engine is cold.


> According to J Conforti several years back . . all S14 and S38 ECU's are
> programmed to run at default for 120 seconds on initial cold start . . .
> functions as a "choke" mode with an enriched fuel mixture.
>
> Mario L.
>riginal Message -----
</pre>

So it isnt exactly 2 minutes... :)

at this point the car is close to twenty years old. any car you get will have seen some wear and tear. the only mitigating issue is regular maintainence.

as 'most' S14 drivers are enthusiasts, finding a sorted car might take a little longer, but its better than dealing with a mystery car.

using the car for a daily commuter for less than 20mins each way...from my experience, the gear box starts to feel loose after half hour mark. until then shifts are cold and notchy. after that it starts to loosen up.

good luck. good thread.

sorry repost from another thread

i had earlier said this fyref -

my costs have been minimal as i drive it as my second car.

the e30 needs periodic valve adjustments and oil change every 2500 miles.

delaying any major services will lead to a heartache further down.

if the car hasnt been ragged out the s14 should keep going well past 140k miles.

get a sorted car after a ppi and you should have no major issues.

the car is a solid piece and very tough to break - unless you really try.

budget around $1500 a year on maintainence if it is driven as a second car, higher if not.

Trying to discount the "It depends on the particular car" - what would you say would be the most to maintain (including servicing/fuel etc) E30 or E36?

Trying to discount the "It depends on the particular car" - what would you say would be the most to maintain (including servicing/fuel etc) E30 or E36?


From what I gather, it seems that the E30 costs more to maintain. Parts pricing is similar or more than the E36 m3, and given that the newest E30 M3 is 4 years older than the oldest E36 m3, stuff on the E30 is more likely to wear out and need replacement.

Additioally, the S50 doesn't need valve adjustments(correct me if I'm wrong) and is not nearly as finicky.

I'd be interested to hear what the average yearly maintenence cost on the E36 M3 would be versus the 1000-1500 of the regularly driven E30 m3.

Alrighty then, let me word it another way:

If i have much more than 2k at my disposal for maintanence costs per annum and buy an average example (speaking in general here and not luck of the draw) E30 M3 and furthermore, that i woud rather the E30 over the E36 - i could get the E30 without having to sweat?

Based on what people have said I would think you'd be good to go.

That's the exact same boat I'm in...if I go E30 I'll be looking to spend 9-12k on an E30 m3 and hope for an annual maintenence cost of 1k or so...

Here is the only advice you really need to know:

Buy a very very well maintained e30 M3 from a fanatical owner who is anal about everything

You will have next to no issues.

My commute will be 5 minutes tops...don't have to worry about extreme heat or extreme cold here in San Diego either. I don't mind letting my car warm up a bit on cooler mornings. I do it anyway. I usually park my cars far away from others or next to something retarded expensive to avoid door dings. If my car goes down, it takes a Bentley with it.



Buy the m3 and then buy a bike. Are you serious about commuting five minutes to school, in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>San Diego</st1:place></st1:City>? In <st1:City><st1:place>Chico</st1:place></st1:City> I lived ~5 minute drive from campus or a 10 minute bike ride. My neighbors drove to school everyday while I hopped on my bike. By the time they had driven to school and found parking I was already on campus. You will save time, money, & unnecessary ware on your soon to be, really nice car.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Well, the point of my saying that I only had a short commute was to note that I would not be putting a ton of miles on it(whereas if I was driving 20k per year maintenence cost would rise).

I most likely will be shuttling to school for a good bit as well as occasionally biking.

If anyone has more advice, I'd love to hear more opinions and keep this thread going. Here's some food for thought:

1)I hear a lot of rod bearing issues on s14's between 100 and 140k...how big of a concern are they? Assuming I pull the trigger on an e30, would it be smart to do the rod bearings and install the pan baffle immediately?

2)S14 valve adjustments are pretty in depth compared to an m20. You have to take measurements and replace shims. Anything to worry about if I'm not a BMW master tech? I can do m20 valves easily.

Damn, This car seems easier to take care of then my my 1990 Volvo 760 turbo.
Rotors run around 80-90 each for brembos.
Distrubotor if It goes bad any you dont want to fuck with used one will run you about 400 at dealership.
Shimming a e30 m3 is just like shimming a 8 valve volvo motor. Pain in the but cause time it takes to do it. just twice the time since twice the valves.

Where can I get e30 m3 thats in florida that isnt wanting 16k for one?

at this point the car is close to twenty years old. any car you get will have seen some wear and tear. the only mitigating issue is regular maintainence.

as 'most' S14 drivers are enthusiasts, finding a sorted car might take a little longer, but its better than dealing with a mystery car.

using the car for a daily commuter for less than 20mins each way...from my experience, the gear box starts to feel loose after half hour mark. until then shifts are cold and notchy. after that it starts to loosen up.

good luck. good thread.

Agreed. It takes about 15 mins for the oil to warm up to operating temperatures. Below that I usually shift before 3000k rpm. After it warms up I let it rip :). My dad owns one for the weekends that's how I know. And I'll vote that the car sucks in traffic.

S14 can cost you money if you have to get in the motor, but if you can turn a wrench, maintain the car and aren't **completely** strapped for money, they can be a great daily.

I'd love to have one!

we've got 3 of them... one 2.5 with mods, a modded 2.3, and a stock 2.3 s14's. Bassically, they only require money. Nothing on the cars is a "weak" point any more so than a standard e30 IMO. But when shit breaks, it's expensive.

I daily drove one for 4 years and it never left me stranded, did over 60k miles (up to nearly 200k) and it still pulled like a champ when i tore it down for a 2.5 rebuild. People who say they are grenade motors do no know what they are talking about. They will become grenade motors, like any other motor, if youfail to maintain them. Do the maintenance, change the fluids regularly, make sure your timing system is in proper working order, and drive it like you stole it.

Quick comment on "kissing the rev limiter" frequently - the S14 has good solid oiling of the bottom end, stock to about 7000. Depending on tolerances, 7000 and change, but that change is not likely more than 500 more. Particularly if you can ill afford to rebuild the motor, I wouldn't make a habit of going beyond 7000. You don't want anything to do with any cheap oil, nor do you want anything to do with super-long drain intervals, and you definitely need to stay away from "stupid-lube" outfits who know nothing about this car. DIY with Mobil 1, or better yet Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purple, or other botique ester-based oil. Repeat after me - "Oil cheap, motor expensive"

Also the 5 minute commute would not be good for the car at all - you want to get the oil fully up to temperature every time you start the car, ideally.

Daily-driving your M3 is a little like having champagne with breakfast every day - what's left for special occasions? Seriously they don't make a good heavy-traffic commuter, when driven slow they are just a rough-riding 318 with a body kit...although the wear parts you are consuming are still more expensive...

One last counter-intuitive point - in the long run, the cheapest M3 to own costs more than $15,000 to buy (unless you get really lucky!)

the s14 can run at 7000rpm all day long and it wont hurt it. in our race motor which only has cams and a chip we take it to 7250 which is where the power dips down but going to 7500 isnt a problem. Anything about that we steer away from but its good for 8000

People who say they are grenade motors do no know what they are talking about. They will become grenade motors, like any other motor, if youfail to maintain them. Do the maintenance, change the fluids regularly, make sure your timing system is in proper working order, and drive it like you stole it.

Couldn't have said it any better. :buttrock