http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-GROUND-WIRE-BMW-E30-E36-E38-E39-E46-E55-M3-M5-M6_W0QQitemZ8065363156QQcategoryZ33692QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

Aside from turning a profit for the seller, I don't think so. As long as your battery terminals are clean and your cables are intact, this dohickey won't help any. Of course I may be missing something as I consider myself a beginner DIYer with my E38 so forgive me in advance if I did...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-GROUND-WIRE-BMW-E30-E36-E38-E39-E46-E55-M3-M5-M6_W0QQitemZ8065363156QQcategoryZ33692QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

Whoa - an 8-15HP gain for $10, what's not to love?

(said very tongue-in-cheek) :-O

No. A 15hp would be freaking sweet, though. Its like the computer chip tool for domestics which claim to give you 100+ hp and torque..hmm

Yes they do something put money into the pocket of the guy selling them .. LOL

actually, I made a hyper ground system in my RX7 and magically my fuel injector stumble/hesitation went away and dash lights got brighter. I would not say it added any HP but it sure improved responce. I have not owned a BMW long enuff to know if the complete engine and electrical ground system is good or bad. You can make your own kit with 10 guage wire.

In the old B13 Sentra community (1991-1994 Sentra's) guys find that regrounding everything really helps out their old cars. If I get bored I'll go search sr20forum.com for a thread or two where some people shared their results. But I've heard that "yes" it does actually work. And I think that any horsepower gain has more to do with restoring power lost, not getting you "new" power. I don't think this is something they tell you to do to a new car.

disclaimer: I don't really know from experience...

Sing with me!

"This baloney has a first name, it's A-S-C-A-M, this baloney has a second name, it's T-O-T-A-L-B-S, I love to laugh at them everyday, ask me why and Ill say it's W-H-A-T-A-C-R-O-C-K!!"

Be smart. If it's a deer whistle, grounding wires, mystery power dial, magic carburetor, or any damn thing that sounds too good to be true (and most often sold on ebay) - then it's total nonsense.

- Rob

In the old B13 Sentra community (1991-1994 Sentra's) guys find that regrounding everything really helps out their old cars. If I get bored I'll go search sr20forum.com for a thread or two where some people shared their results. But I've heard that "yes" it does actually work. And I think that any horsepower gain has more to do with restoring power lost, not getting you "new" power. I don't think this is something they tell you to do to a new car.

Which means it's hearsay, unsupported, applies to old Japanese cars and not newer BMWs, and therefore has very little bearing.

disclaimer: I don't really know from experience...

Then it's probably not a good idea to perpetuate the myth then without actually knowing, is it?

"I heard..." should be the mental trigger that makes you think "find someone who actually knows about this, and don't listen to whatever follows."

- Rob

Which means it's hearsay, unsupported, applies to old Japanese cars and not newer BMWs, and therefore has very little bearing.My BMW is not newer. I would say that it applies to older cars. Not just older Japanese cars. An old corroded ground is an old corroded ground, regardless of where the car was manufactured. And a new/better ground can make a world of difference from what I've read about it from people I trust on sr20forum.


Then it's probably not a good idea to perpetuate the myth then without actually knowing, is it?

- RobWith my disclaimer its hard to say that I helped reinforce the "myth". But I'll do some research and report back with my findings when I have time.

Which means it's hearsay, unsupported, applies to old Japanese cars and not newer BMWs, and therefore has very little bearing.



Then it's probably not a good idea to perpetuate the myth then without actually knowing, is it?

"I heard..." should be the mental trigger that makes you think "find someone who actually knows about this, and don't listen to whatever follows."

- Rob
With minimal time spent, here ya go..

http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=116664

and

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/april05/project200sx/


As mentioned above, the improvements in throttle response, smoother idle, brighter lights headlight, brighter interior lights, and reduced audio noise are very noticeable with the Optima Battery and enhanced grounding. The annoying dimming of the lights caused by the bass in the audio system is no longer present. And last, but not least, it looks sweet when the hood is open!

and another..

http://www.hometheatertalk.com/httalk/viewtopic.php?t=10250&view=previous&sid=1af7137bcb80670e0548bc888049d2ac

2) better grounding. Ask any electrician and they'll tell you that grounding is of utmost importance. A "better" ground will result in less resistance and more energy available to your vehicle. You could get better spark with improved grounding resulting in better idle/driving characteristics.
There is a reason that racers use high output ignition systems like MSD. Many folks who have large stereo systems experience dimming lights with big bass hits. A lot of times, improving the factory ground wires can eliminate or severly reduce this. This is again, a scientific fact.

My BMW is not newer. I would say that it applies to older cars. Not just older Japanese cars. An old corroded ground is an old corroded ground, regardless of where the car was manufactured. And a new/better ground can make a world of difference from what I've read about it from people I trust on sr20forum.

Yah, okay. Still BS.

If your ground is corroded... simply clean your ground. Most actual grounding problems on the older BMW models are in two places: 1) the battery negative terminal (no "grounding kit" will help), and 2) the main ground bundle (all the brown wires) at the firewall. Simply clean the connection.

Japanese car owners will believe anything... they think Honda Civics are good drag race cars because they read it on the internet. :D

- Rob

Yah, okay. Still BS.

If your ground is corroded... simply clean your ground. Most actual grounding problems on the older BMW models are in two places: 1) the battery negative terminal (no "grounding kit" will help), and 2) the main ground bundle (all the brown wires) at the firewall. Simply clean the connection.

Japanese car owners will believe anything... they think Honda Civics are good drag race cars because they read it on the internet. :D

- Rob
if the ground is corroded you can clean the ground, but when the entire wire is corroded it doesn't always work.

The japanese car owners aren't believing it because they've read it, they're speaking from experience on there..

also old wire can become inonized, which can change the resistance and simply cleaning the contacts won't help.

if the ground is corroded you can clean the ground, but when the entire wire is corroded it doesn't always work.

The japanese car owners aren't believing it because they've read it, they're speaking from experience on there..


Yeah I can tell you the first 2 mods in my RX were the grounds and re-wire the fuel pump. The stock wiring for the fuel pump in my other car is known to toast motors all the time.

if the ground is corroded you can clean the ground, but when the entire wire is corroded it doesn't always work.

If the entire wire is corroded, grounding is the least of your problem. That the entire car was sumbersed should be your concern!

The japanese car owners aren't believing it because they've read it, they're speaking from experience on there..

I'm not going to entertain a discussion of the veracity or applicability of other message board postings.

We're having a "moot point" discussion now, and I've got other things on today's schedule.

I'll leave you with this: prove to me, on a dyno right in front of me, a legitimate before-and-after 15hp gain with a bundle of grounding wires on my BMW (any chassis you like - choose E30, E32, E34, E36, E38, or the bikes), and I'll hand you $500 and say in public that you were completely right and thank you for the power boost. If there's no 15hp, you pay for the dyno time.

When shall I expect you, and when shall I schedule the dyno?

- Rob

Mr. Bob, it's not about where the car was made nor is it about "regrounding your car will make you run 8's in the 1/4", it's about taking a 10-15 year old (or even older) car and bringing it back closer to how it ran when it was new. You seem to have a hatred for Japanese car owners and given the number of idiots involved in the "ricer" community I can't say that I blame you but your attitude amounts to profiling anyone who likes to drive small Japanese compacts almost to a level of what could be compared to subtle racial profiling (no I'm not calling you racist, I'm using it as a comparison to help you understand how your attitude is being perceived), in otherwords you seem to have a very bigoted and ignorant view of anyone owning a Japanese car simply because of what they own and the number of "VTEC is fast yo!" posts you see on Honda forums.

Let me give you a bit of a hand on understanding why this does help some people and often seems to help most cars. I have a feeling you're going to respond as if I'm patronizing you, if so then...well hell I'm not going to apologize, you need it. The act of passing an electrical charge through any medium causes what is called ionization, ionization causes corrosion and also causes chemical shifts in that medium. In the case of copper wires it causes resistance to increase over time due to ionization promoting corrosion. That resistance is subtle in most cases and takes years, even decades depending on the quality of the wire and environment, to be noticeable. Modern car electronics depend almost entirely on resistance to govern fuel and air mixtures and at low throttle or idle that resistance is so low that this shift from age can make a noticeable difference. Most noteable is in throttle response and idle smoothness.

This "trick" does nothing more than give the car a leg up and allow the electronics to function at a more optimal level. That doesn't equate to adding horsepower or a faster car than it was when it was new it only equates to the car running more like it was when it was new. I can use my own car as an example, after doing a thorough cleaning of my now 9 year old car's electrical terminals including the multiple grounds and battery leads and replacing the negative grounding wire the car went from a slight stumble around 1k-2k rpms and a slight rough idle to a significantly more responsive throttle, smoother throttling (no stumbling) and an idle smooth enough that most people would never realize it was not only 9 years old but also 90k miles on it. Was that two hours worth of work worth it? Very much so, it cost next to nothing and the gain was a car that was more comfortable to drive. That gave me a sense of pride in itself.

Personally you really need to pull your head out of the sand. Just because the majority of people who tinker with Japanese cars think putting stickers all over it, a whale tail the size of a top fuel dragsters and VTEC = fast doesn't mean the entire community involved with Japanese cars are morons. I fully respect anyone's choice in cars even if I despise the car choice they made but it's not the car I look at when I determine a person's adeptness or ineptitude when it comes to mechanics or maintenance it's the attitude they present and the knowledge they bring to the table. My immediate assesment of you is that you have limited view and little desire to learn or understand anything beyond a brand new BMW, "Supporting Vendor" or not I can't help but assume your knowledge doesn't go beyond "buy this part, it'll make your Bimmer go faster". I suppose you make a good salesemen to those who do know less than you but then again you probably only prey on the weak.

also old wire can become inonized, which can change the resistance and simply cleaning the contacts won't help.


OK, I've got to admit I've never heard of this, nor can I imagine how ionization would change a ground wire's resistance.

Care to explain, or provide a link to an explaination?

OK, I've got to admit I've never heard of this, nor can I imagine how ionization would change a ground wire's resistance.

Care to explain, or provide a link to an explaination?
ionization of any atom that can be ionized changes the number of electrons in that atom. copper makes a great conductor because of the number of electrons in its outer "ring". But after years of the slow ionization process, that number of electons changes throughout the entire wire and increases resistance.

Mr. Bob, it's not about where the car was made nor is it about "regrounding your car will make you run 8's in the 1/4", it's about taking a 10-15 year old (or even older) car and bringing it back closer to how it ran when it was new.

The way to do that is fix what's wrong, not throw vaporware "mystery performance" parts at it.


You seem to have a hatred for Japanese car owners and given the number of idiots involved in the "ricer" community I can't say that I blame you but your attitude amounts to profiling anyone who likes to drive small Japanese compacts almost to a level of what could be compared to subtle racial profiling (no I'm not calling you racist, I'm using it as a comparison to help you understand how your attitude is being perceived), in otherwords you seem to have a very bigoted and ignorant view of anyone owning a Japanese car simply because of what they own and the number of "VTEC is fast yo!" posts you see on Honda forums.

You're so wrong that it's indescribable.

I was building Japanese "tuner" cars even before anyone used the word "tuner" or "ricer". Let's see... three heavily modified RX-7s (two turbo IIs), the last one which would still smoke most of what's on the road today. Other Mazdas, including a motor-swap conversion Miata. Used to run a G-stock Celica for a few years. Still own a Nissan. I have great respect for Asian technology and Asian culture. Did I mention that I, personally, have some Asian heritage back in my family history?

I have zero respect for people that market "performance" parts that are complete nonsense.


Let me give you a bit of a hand on understanding why this does help some people and often seems to help most cars. I have a feeling you're going to respond as if I'm patronizing you, if so then...well hell I'm not going to apologize, you need it. The act of passing an electrical charge through any medium causes what is called ionization, ionization causes corrosion and also causes chemical shifts in that medium. In the case of copper wires it causes resistance to increase over time due to ionization promoting corrosion. That resistance is subtle in most cases and takes years, even decades depending on the quality of the wire and environment, to be noticeable. Modern car electronics depend almost entirely on resistance to govern fuel and air mixtures and at low throttle or idle that resistance is so low that this shift from age can make a noticeable difference. Most noteable is in throttle response and idle smoothness.

You started off semi-right, electrical resistance does change over time. But did you notice that even older BMWs use a set of grounding wires about as thick as your thumb? You could cut that about 80% and it would still be sufficient.

Modern car electronics certainly do not rely on "resistance" to govern a/f ratios. They rely on sold-state digital signals. The only "resistance" is the MAF, and it's not a grounding resistance - it's the change in resistance based on mass of the air cooling the hot wire acting as a sensor that determines density. The circuit is not grounded in the traditional sense at all, it goes through the DME.

This "trick" does nothing more than give the car a leg up and allow the electronics to function at a more optimal level. That doesn't equate to adding horsepower or a faster car than it was when it was new it only equates to the car running more like it was when it was new. I can use my own car as an example, after doing a thorough cleaning of my now 9 year old car's electrical terminals including the multiple grounds and battery leads and replacing the negative grounding wire the car went from a slight stumble around 1k-2k rpms and a slight rough idle to a significantly more responsive throttle, smoother throttling (no stumbling) and an idle smooth enough that most people would never realize it was not only 9 years old but also 90k miles on it. Was that two hours worth of work worth it? Very much so, it cost next to nothing and the gain was a car that was more comfortable to drive. That gave me a sense of pride in itself.

Bingo! Now we're in complete agreement. No need at all for an overpriced bundle of wires on ebay. I appreciate you proving my point.

Personally you really need to pull your head out of the sand. Just because the majority of people who tinker with Japanese cars think putting stickers all over it, a whale tail the size of a top fuel dragsters and VTEC = fast doesn't mean the entire community involved with Japanese cars are morons. I fully respect anyone's choice in cars even if I despise the car choice they made but it's not the car I look at when I determine a person's adeptness or ineptitude when it comes to mechanics or maintenance it's the attitude they present and the knowledge they bring to the table. My immediate assesment of you is that you have limited view and little desire to learn or understand anything beyond a brand new BMW, "Supporting Vendor" or not I can't help but assume your knowledge doesn't go beyond "buy this part, it'll make your Bimmer go faster". I suppose you make a good salesemen to those who do know less than you but then again you probably only prey on the weak.

I'll ignore the insulting tone of that.

Please stop making assumptions. Chances are I've had more "old BMWs" than all the cars you've ever owned combined. Your '95 740 isn't "old" by any stretch. When your car can sport "QQ" (antique 20+ years old) license plates, then you're qualified to discuss "old" BMWs.

Again, I'll ignore the insult and the outrageous comment about what my desire to learn or know really is.

Discussion over.

- Rob

You keep citing only BMW's, although I don't doubt that they likely have a higher quality wiring most Japanese cars do not have such heavy gauge wiring (beyond the battery leads at 4 gauge). This accounts for why, and I clearly stated, some cars gain more from this than others. BMW's very well may not fall into that category however I can safely assume that even a 20 year old car no matter who made it very well may benefit from some wiring replacement.

I would cite some information about the ionization process and it's links to corrosion and how in smaller gauge wires it can be extremely detrimental but vqman pretty much put it the best way I can think of. There are literally thousands of experiments involving corrosion, electrochemical theory, rust and ionization all over the web, all of wikipedia and various credible journals dating back to the turn of the century.

As for resistance you're very wrong. The throttle, at least on most cars I know, determines the position of the throttle by measuring the resistance in the switch the higher the resistance the more open the throttle. If the resistance is causing minor surges in the wiring it will inadvertantly affect readings of electronics and be unstable. That is what this little bit of work is meant to help alleviate, it's meant to stabilize the power. The majority of electronics failures everywhere (not just in cars) is due to unstable power sources hence why line conditioners are becoming more and more popular and were and still are extremely popular with computers and high end stereo equipment. It's not rocket science, it's just simply optimizing and stabilizing.

Your limited view still seems to be focused on a belief that everyone but you is saying it will gain you power, even vqman stated very clearly that it gains absolutely no power the result is restoring some power that was lost due to age, nothing more. If wiring never went bad and never failed you would never have to change your spark plug wires (provided the jackets don't fail, fall off, crack, etc.) but you do eventually.

How much more clearly can we explain that eBay sales artists sell on half truths and often flat out lies? The premise behind adding a grounding kit is to essentially replace failing wiring, the act of this does not gain power (we agree on that) but it can help the performance of the vehicle by restoring it to a more "like new" running condition. That's all any of us have been saying.

**edit**

Also since we seem to gotten into a e-penis measuring contest if a 95 is the oldest car you've owned then I've got about 20 years age on you, the first car I ever owned was a 71 Impala and it wasn't even old enough to have an antique tag when I sold it 3 years later. I don't build cars but I enjoy tinkering with them and I take a much more serious approach than the fad crazy "ricer" community. That doesn't make me knowledgeable by any means however what little I do know is solid and I make every effort not to talk out of my ass whenever I realize I'm going beyond my own knowledge. If I wasn't so sure and disgusted by your initial attitude towards the subject and vqman I'd probably never have said a word and chalked it up to just more yammering on the 'net about what someone doesn't know and doesn't care to know.

Please stop making assumptions. Chances are I've had more "old BMWs" than all the cars you've ever owned combined. Your '95 740 isn't "old" by any stretch. When your car can sport "QQ" (antique 20+ years old) license plates, then you're qualified to discuss "old" BMWs.

Again, I'll ignore the insult and the outrageous comment about what my desire to learn or know really is.

Discussion over.

- Robyou don't even know who you're arguing with, the guy you just responded to isn't me and doesn't own a '95 740iL :lol

ionization of any atom that can be ionized changes the number of electrons in that atom. copper makes a great conductor because of the number of electrons in its outer "ring". But after years of the slow ionization process, that number of electons changes throughout the entire wire and increases resistance.

So your saying that over years of moving electrons, some electrons on the copper get stripped away forever? And no free range electrons go back to the remaining positively charged Ions, ever?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying that at all. I'll buy oxidation, or metal faituge, but ionization? Not a chance.

Wow! We're getting into some heavy physics and philosophy! My simple take on what started this thread is why pay $10 plus $15 shipping for a widget when a toothbrush, sudsy water and battery terminal conditioner as well as an inspection of the battery cabling will do just as well? Of course, that won't have the ///M widget on the battery assembly that implies a performance mod...

From a keep-it-simple-and-cheap guy ;-)

I guess it does have to drag on...

You keep citing only BMW's

It's a BMW message board. You want to talk about Nissans? Wrong forum, try "Off Topic".


Your limited view still seems to be focused on a belief that everyone but you is saying it will gain you power

Put up or keep it quiet. Take my $500 challenge. You have nothing to lose.

How much more clearly can we explain that eBay sales artists sell on half truths and often flat out lies? The premise behind adding a grounding kit is to essentially replace failing wiring, the act of this does not gain power (we agree on that) but it can help the performance of the vehicle by restoring it to a more "like new" running condition.

No, it's not. The grounding kits are marketed to brand-new car owners. Scam.

Also since we seem to gotten into a e-penis measuring contest if a 95 is the oldest car you've owned then I've got about 20 years age on you,

Now you are talking to the wrong guy. :lol

If I wasn't so sure and disgusted by your initial attitude towards the subject and vqman I'd probably never have said a word and chalked it up to just more yammering on the 'net about what someone doesn't know and doesn't care to know.

Yep, I don't know anything. Righty-o.

The $500 challenge is waiting for you. Until then, I'm turning on the a/c to deal with the hot air in here.

- Rob

It's a BMW message board. You want to talk about Nissans? Wrong forum, try "Off Topic".
Did I say talk about Nissans? No...in fact I never mentioned a single brand of car other than BMW's. I didn't even state the brand or make of the car I mentioned specifically earlier.


Put up or keep it quiet. Take my $500 challenge. You have nothing to lose.


If you lost 1 hp due to age it wouldn't even be measurable, the measurements of dynometers are notoriously inconsistant due to constantly shifting environmental reasons (ambient pressure, height above/below sea level which can be adjusted for, temperature, etc.) which makes accurately measuring for only a few horsepower almost impossible. You can actually get 2-3 horsepower differences between runs without making any changes to the engine between tests and I don't think even you can deny that fact. And if you believe I ever stated you'd gain a specific amount of horsepower somewhere then by all means please quote it for me.


No, it's not. The grounding kits are marketed to brand-new car owners. Scam.

I haven't yet disagreed with that and even openly agreed with it in my previous post. I only disagree with you on the fact that you believe that it will make absolutely zero difference when in fact it can be beneficial to a certain degree and has been proven on more than one occasion.



Now you are talking to the wrong guy.

That's fine, perhaps you know more than everyone on this board and any other auto board on the web but I can't say I'd give much respect to your opinions by the way you present it. Clearly we've made a mistake to oppose you since the experience of so many others does not weigh with the theoretical knowledge of why it won't make any difference you possess.

So your saying that over years of moving electrons, some electrons on the copper get stripped away forever? And no free range electrons go back to the remaining positively charged Ions, ever?

I'm sorry, I'm not buying that at all. I'll buy oxidation, or metal faituge, but ionization? Not a chance.I'm not saying it "strips it away". It's a chemical change that takes place. I forget how it works, but I learned abot it in Avionics school. You don't have to believe me. I worked as an avionics tech on Cobra's and Huey's for 5 years in the Marine Corps and later I rewound electrical motors, pumps and generators for TWA in their overhaul base. I've been around copper for a while. But now I work in fiber optics..:buttrock
Wow! We're getting into some heavy physics and philosophy! My simple take on what started this thread is why pay $10 plus $15 shipping for a widget when a toothbrush, sudsy water and battery terminal conditioner as well as an inspection of the battery cabling will do just as well? Of course, that won't have the ///M widget on the battery assembly that implies a performance mod...

From a keep-it-simple-and-cheap guy ;-)
well we're saying that the physical/chemical characteristics of the entire copper cable change, and scrubbing the ends of the cable won't fix the entire thing. :)

hey, vqman. Don't bother with logic or experience here.
With every car I had, ( granted that none of them are brand new ) I always put extra groundings. It helps to reduce the "electrical noise." inculding my 93 bmw. It's just cheap, and effective protective mod.

Most people here thinks their bmw is a fucking godsent, and it is only car that should be allowed in the roads. Anything else it's a piece of shit, especially anything japanese. Any thing made in japan must be "rice."

I'm sure most people in the forums are not like this but the people who posts makes it seem so. They are quick to put anything down that's not fi related.

I don't post here much. I do once in a while, trying to help. But for most part I just keep quite and read the thread, even though, sometimes, I know they are giving wrong info or bad advices. It's not worth it. I know this is true in every forum, and they will talk about shit that they don't understand or have any experience. ( i know i'm guilty of that to certain level ) But some are wrose then others. Now you know why surf the sr20forum alot. I mean lot.

For those that are geniunely interested you can get a more in depth understanding by studying the properties around oxidation, corrosion and electrolosys. All of these have ionization as a factor and all cause a chemical change (down to the atom) in the material affected. Copper is very resistant to this process but it's still susceptable. Gold terminals are popular because they are even more so resistant. No matter is lost however it does leave the original material and become other matter (take the process of electrolosys in water causing it to revert to hydrogen and oxygen gas). It may seem hard to believe and I doubt either of us are qualified physicists capable of explaining it however there are literally thousands of documents for free you can find tons of information on it. I've tried quoting several sources however it seems I can't post links or anything else aside from straight text so copy and pasting always results in losing what I was going to post. You can try wikipedia for a start and there are journals from various universities that discuss it as well. Even NASA did a paper on it recently citing failing wires as a major cause for the loss of satellites currently in orbit.

One easy to see example of what happens to copper wires that have suffered severe damage from this process is when you come across extremely brittle copper wires, so brittle they snap like twigs (usually these are extremely old wires). They have been worn to a point where it can barely hold it's basic properties (and yes this happens to copper that hasn't been fatigued by flexing or other external pressures, just typical useage and age).

Now you are talking to the wrong guy. :lol

I'm the one who said you were talking to the wrong guy. Pay attention to who you're replying to. :nono

You're responding to the bitto again while referring to my car or one of my comments.

I'm not saying it "strips it away". It's a chemical change that takes place. I forget how it works, but I learned abot it in Avionics school. You don't have to believe me. I worked as an avionics tech on Cobra's and Huey's for 5 years in the Marine Corps and later I rewound electrical motors, pumps and generators for TWA in their overhaul base. I've been around copper for a while. But now I work in fiber optics..:buttrock

well we're saying that the physical/chemical characteristics of the entire copper cable change, and scrubbing the ends of the cable won't fix the entire thing. :)

In your earlier post you described the lack of electrons in the outer shell as the reason for the higher resistance. Hence the "striped away" statment from me.

However, what you're describing is the oxidation process which is accelerated by ionization of Oxygen, not copper. This will take place more noticable in a motor or generator, since the brush sparks create O3, O3 is very powerfull oxidizing agent, and will combine with the more stable copper.

The difference between to two explanations is like saying the sun revolves around the earth, vs. the earth is round, and spins. Both explain the sunrise, but only one lets you actually understand what's going on.

However, what you're describing is the oxidation process which is accelerated by ionization of Oxygen, not copper. This will take place more noticable in a motor or generator, since the brush sparks create O3, O3 is very powerfull oxidizing agent, and will combine with the more stable copper.

Let me also clarify, that I'm not saying that O3 is causing grounding straps to oxidize in cars. I meant to say the type of oxidation that your familiar with, are mostly caused by O3 and heat.

Out of curosity, how often did they replace the rest of the airframe wiring, compared to the motor or generators?



Back on the subject, I've had plenty of cars were I've replaced my grounding strap or some of the heavier wires because they were heavily oxidized. Water spray, heat and years of exposure will take their toll. (The joys of british car ownership)

So if replacing your grounds fixes your problems, why not do it correctly? There are only a few cars that I could think of that have substandard grounds from the factory. This bit of kit wouldn't help them anyway, as all the ones I can think of, have steming from being fiberglass bodied.

Yah, okay. Still BS.

If your ground is corroded... simply clean your ground. Most actual grounding problems on the older BMW models are in two places: 1) the battery negative terminal (no "grounding kit" will help), and 2) the main ground bundle (all the brown wires) at the firewall. Simply clean the connection.

Japanese car owners will believe anything... they think Honda Civics are good drag race cars because they read it on the internet. :D

- Rob
Whats funny about this statement is that in the 1/4 a lot of well set up Civics are good drag cars. A B18C swap with a little boost can outrun a 6cyl M3 powered E30 for a lot less... Welcome to the 21 Century Fred... And I did not read that, I have seen numerous street trim Civics trap over 130 and 9's...

A civic is still a civic. :wiggle

WOW!

did I start this thread??

A civic is still a civic. :wiggle

aaaah.. the ol' mighty, " I still drive a bmw" come back. oh man.. shit's getting tiring.:help

aaaah.. the ol' mighty, " I still drive a bmw" come back. oh man.. shit's getting tiring.:help

*yawn* People like you are getting annoiying. Once you see someone bashing a civic (for example) you go back to the "oh he has a BMW so therefore he must be an elitist who thinks he is on top of the world".

Dont get me wrong..i LOVE japanese cars, i.e.-nissan maxima 5th gen, s13, s14, mazda rx-7 (despite its reliability) etc..but this has nothing to do with BMWs or the "stereotypical elitism of bmw owners".

Maybe you didn't understand me correctly..a civic is STILL a civic. ;) Just voicing my opinion. If you dont like it...who cares..I see that YOU own a bmw, too. So what exactly is your problem, anyway? Go crawl back into your miserable hole of a life and keep bickering. And im sure plenty of civic owners are tired of being labeled "ricers" now arent they?

Next time..please think before you type something. You are the stereotype.:rolleyes

You know I see a bit of duplicity in your statement that I can't help but not overlook. You talk about how people look at a BMW and stereotype them as elitists however you in the same breath immediately stereotype Civics and Civic owners. Before I go on I need to say that I really do not like Hondas and I have no real desire to protect whatever image the professional drivers who drive Civics (and there are quite a few very well built and very competitive Civics, unfortunately watered down by the idiots) however it's important that you realize that you yourself are making a severe hypocrite of yourself by complaining about being stereotyped while stereotyping other vehicles.

Here is some more great stuff that would go well with the multiple grounding wire kit. http://www.kalecoauto.com/

The best items can be found in the performance section. I can only imagine what the adjustable power band would do when combined with the universal grounding wire system and maybe a dual O Pipes setup.

Doesn't it get a little hard to swallow with your tongue stuck in your cheek, Dave. Great site, LOL!!!!

Prices are competitive as well.

jake

Here is some more great stuff that would go well with the multiple grounding wire kit. http://www.kalecoauto.com/

The best items can be found in the performance section. I can only imagine what the adjustable power band would do when combined with the universal grounding wire system and maybe a dual O Pipes setup.

Thanks, Dave! I've been looking to replace the brass balls in my E38 as I'm noticing some rattle from the current ones when I floor the gas pedal. Hmmm, I might pick up the engine oil bypass kit, too, what with the price of oil rising...

I just finished installing my M-ground wiring today and not only did I notice a 8-15hp gain but as well now I'm getting 18-22mpg city and 27-30mpg highway respectivily!!!!! The best $24 I ever spent:redspot

:bs:lol

:redspot

Guys from sr20forum, I appreciate you guys backing me up, however please stop the "You think you're an elitist because you drive a BMW" statements. It only leads to flame wars. I was hoping to get some support in the form of technical experience from you guys (which some of you gave) and i did not want to start a "who's car manufacturer is better" e-brawl. :cool

ok Rob, I'm finally going to address this.

If the entire wire is corroded, grounding is the least of your problem. That the entire car was sumbersed should be your concern!Submerssion isn't the only way for a wire to lose resistance via corrosion.

I'm not going to entertain a discussion of the veracity or applicability of other message board postings.It's a discussion about how regrounding a car can help it restore some of it's lost newness and the discussion happens to be on a BMW board. I'm new to BMW's and my automotive experience is limited mostly to Nissan's so that's where I'm going to draw any information from.

We're having a "moot point" discussion now, and I've got other things on today's schedule.and this was on your schedule? :)

I'll leave you with this: prove to me, on a dyno right in front of me, a legitimate before-and-after 15hp gain with a bundle of grounding wires on my BMW (any chassis you like - choose E30, E32, E34, E36, E38, or the bikes), and I'll hand you $500 and say in public that you were completely right and thank you for the power boost. If there's no 15hp, you pay for the dyno time.

When shall I expect you, and when shall I schedule the dyno?

- RobYou know there is no chance I'm coming to Jersey to prove a point about an e-arguement, so why bother asking me? I never said that one of these grounding kits will give you an extra 15hp. The question the original poster asked was "do these really do anything?"

I focused on the "any" part of anything. Doing so I responded saying that they can help on older cars. In an attempt to play off the sellers hp claims I said that if you gain any power its really just restoring lost power due to old wires, and that this wouldn't be something to do on an newer car.

I didn't say "Buy it, it's worth every penny. You'll gain 15 horsepower and you'll feel it by the seat of your pants." I didn't make any outrageous claims like the guy selling it who said you'll get 8-15 hp.

If the subject of the thread were: "Will this really yeild a 15 horsepower gain on my late model BMW?" and I said "yes" then I could see where you get off bashing my statements the way you did. But by reading your bet I tend to believe really you're taking my statements to the extreme way that they could be interpreted.

Here's a revised version of your bet. First off, if I'm going to spend time installing a ground wire kit on a car, it will be on my car.

We'll need some reliable people from the KCBMWCCA to join me on this as both assitants in the work and witnesses to the affects of the grounding kit.

Also, I think we'd have to find a climate controlled dyno facility. I'm not sure they have one in KC. If we were to do this on different days. The barometric pressure could throw things off too, right? I imagine you've done the dyno thing a couple hundred more times than me if you're a supporting vendor. The reason I believe we would have to find such a facility is because we're looking for minimal hp gain/loss which could be affected easily by temperature and barometric pressure, right?

My cars problem: I notice when my bass hits that my head lights go dim. Sure I'm drawing a lot of current from my amp, so anything short of a large capacitor or second battery may not fix this. But people have claimed that it does. My idle is pretty smooth and the engine seems plenty powerful. But maybe it could be more powerful, and maybe the idle could be smoother. I'm not going to bet that it will gain 15 or even 8 horsepower. In fact I'm not going to bet anything. I just want to see what will happen for myself. Whenever I get into a debate that I don't know from experience, I like to find out for sure. Have you ever done this to one of your cars? Do you know from experience that regrounding won't help out with any part of your cars driveability?

I'll let you set the ground rules regarding the dyno.

I want to do this just to see for sure what happens. Think of it as research for the community. There is a guy in our club who has an old 2002. Perhaps we could do this for his car too. I imagine if there is actually hp gains from this, that being a 4 cylinder we won't see nearly as large of a number on the dyno, but I'd imagine we'll see a similar % gain. Unless the 2002 is much worse off electrically than my E38. Then we might see a greater % gain - if there is any gain.

But again, I've read countless stories about guys who've regrounded their cars and saw a marked improvement in their vehicles. So we'll see if BMW's are immune to any such improvements.

I think that we can all agree that proper grounding is important. But why not use standard heavy duty grounding cable? What is the point of the contraption that is advertised? The terminals are small lightweight and very thin. Each one has very little contact area. The clear insulation on these types of wires tends to act like a magnifying glass to make relatively thin wires look bigger. It costs ten bucks and is probably worth far less.

If anyone is concerned about proper grounding, clean or replace your grounding cables with the ones that are designed for the car in the first place, not some flashy thing that is supposed to look cool and has outlandish claims about improving performance.

I could have sworn I posted - maybe I didn't - maybe it was deleted.
What is the point of the contraption advertised asks Dave? Cosmetics.

Tell me the M badging doesn't look the shit!

Guys from sr20forum,I appreciate you guys backing me up

Guys from the sr20forum, please keep it there. If vqman "needs help" then he shouldn't even be talking about something in the first place.

Rules of technical discussion: no guessing, no BS. Understand it or hush and listen to those that do. When I have a Nissan question, I'll respectfully read the archives on sr20forum before saying anything.

What may apply to an older Nissan doesn't necessarily apply to a BMW... certainly not to an E38 7-series, which is what the original poster owns.

ok Rob, I'm finally going to address this.

Submerssion isn't the only way for a wire to lose resistance via corrosion.

It was an absurd example meant to highlight the ridiculousness of the claim. If your car's wirting is losing so much conductivity that functionality is being affected, I'd guess that it's wired with strips of bubblegum wrappers.

A legitmate grounding issue is an interface corrosion issue; clean your ground bundles, check them for breaks, and checkthe battery terminals.

I'll repeat; modern BMWs have an abundance of grounding wires. The applicability of these "M-marketed" grounding bundles is prompted by the stereotype "racerboy" with huge APC stickers in his back window.


It's a discussion about how regrounding a car can help it restore some of it's lost newness and the discussion happens to be on a BMW board.

"Restore lost newness"?

I think you've just insulted the intelligence of anybody reading this thread!

That it happens to be on a BMW board is another issue altogether, yet a large part of it.

If you want to talk about Nissan problems, please do so on the Nissan boards. As for BMW problems, with quite a bit of experience diagnosing all sorts of BMW issues, I can assure you that it's not endemic. Besides, we BMW owners know how to clean wire contacts, thanks very much.


I'm new to BMW's and my automotive experience is limited mostly to Nissan's so that's where I'm going to draw any information from.

Therein lies the problem. Draw your information from those that know BMWs if you want to learn about BMWs. No offense - but it's like learning how to play basketball by relying on your skiing experience. Ask a basketball player what to do before putting on your parka.

I own a Nissan also. Except for the basic principles of internal combusion, the details and common issues are quite different than my same-year BMW!

My Nissan needed a new cap and rotor. Oops, the BMWs have coil-on-plug ignition. Totally different parts, different defect symptoms.

My Nissan needed new brakes. It has bolt-on rotor discs, not complete rotor/hat assemblies like the BMWs. Oops, completely different.

My Nissan needed new shocks. Oops, my BMW has coilover-style MacPherson struts. Completely different.

I thought about tweaking my Nissan's torsion bars. BMWs use springs.

Even something as simple as the oil filter; the Nissan has a screw-on cartridge, the BMW has a drop-in filter element.

By relying on any one of my Nissan "experience" points, I wouldn't be able to perform any of these jobs on my BMW... and vice-versa!

The list goes on, and the lessons learned on one vehicle may not apply to another. Sometimes they do, but often the important details are different.


You know there is no chance I'm coming to Jersey to prove a point about an e-arguement, so why bother asking me? I never said that one of these grounding kits will give you an extra 15hp. The question the original poster asked was "do these really do anything?"

Don't backpedal.

The original question was asking about the claims of the product advertised. The product doesn't do what it advertises, which includes an outlandish 15hp claim. It does exist as a bundle of overpriced wires, and that's about it.

I seriously doubt you'd take me up on the challenge even if you were local.

But at this point, you're not even making any significant claims at all, so it might be an easy bet for you to win. If the bet were simply "this wire will replace a broken OE wire", then you would win.


I focused on the "any" part of anything. Doing so I responded saying that they can help on older cars. In an attempt to play off the sellers hp claims I said that if you gain any power its really just restoring lost power due to old wires, and that this wouldn't be something to do on an newer car.

Don't damage-control an indefensible position. Older cars don't even need this, all they need is 5 minutes with a wire brush on the battery terminal and OE ground contact points.


I didn't say "Buy it, it's worth every penny. You'll gain 15 horsepower and you'll feel it by the seat of your pants." I didn't make any outrageous claims like the guy selling it who said you'll get 8-15 hp.

You supported the product and happily ignored the fact that it is marketed on unrealistic claims. Any product marketed that way should be boycotted on the "scam" basis alone.

You also ignored the fact that it's replaceable by a $7 legitmate replacement grounding strap at any good auto parts store.

You also called me to task for, again, the inflated claims of increasing wire resistance... while it exists, it's typical "mountain out of a molehill" misdirection and obfuscation.

If the subject of the thread were: "Will this really yeild a 15 horsepower gain on my late model BMW?" and I said "yes" then I could see where you get off bashing my statements the way you did.

First, you know that's what the original poster was attracted to and was asking about. Second, you were never "bashed" except to have pointed out that your comments don't apply to typical BMW problems, and your "corrosion" explanation was inflated and of negligible effect on a thoroughly-grounded BMW.

But by reading your bet I tend to believe really you're taking my statements to the extreme way that they could be interpreted.

No, by extending the bet I'm proving that you can't prove anything.

Here's a revised version of your bet. First off, if I'm going to spend time installing a ground wire kit on a car, it will be on my car.

We'll need some reliable people from the KCBMWCCA to join me on this as both assitants in the work and witnesses to the affects of the grounding kit.

Also, I think we'd have to find a climate controlled dyno facility. I'm not sure they have one in KC. If we were to do this on different days. The barometric pressure could throw things off too, right? I imagine you've done the dyno thing a couple hundred more times than me if you're a supporting vendor. The reason I believe we would have to find such a facility is because we're looking for minimal hp gain/loss which could be affected easily by temperature and barometric pressure, right?

Now we're practicing obfuscation by complication. Nice.

Show me a good-condition car (which includes OE ground straps and battery terminals cleaned), and I'll show you a car that will show no differences other than dyno margin of error.

My cars problem: I notice when my bass hits that my head lights go dim. Sure I'm drawing a lot of current from my amp, so anything short of a large capacitor or second battery may not fix this. But people have claimed that it does.

If you have a "large amp" that does not have it's own direct battery feed and is directly grounded to a chassis point with wiring of sufficient gauge, then that's one potential cause of your problem.

If you've got an amp that is overtaxing your alternator and your battery reserve, then that's a second potential cause and you do need a capacitor or second battery.

If your alternator is no longer putting out sufficient amperage, then that's a third potential cause. You may need a new alternator.

If your battery is old and has greater resistance, then that's a fourth potenetial cause. You may need a new battery.

This is called "troubleshooting". It's what people do when they want to figure out what the real problem is, and not throw racerboy junk in the car in the vain hope that the voodoo claims actually work.

My idle is pretty smooth and the engine seems plenty powerful. But maybe it could be more powerful, and maybe the idle could be smoother. I'm not going to bet that it will gain 15 or even 8 horsepower. In fact I'm not going to bet anything. I just want to see what will happen for myself. Whenever I get into a debate that I don't know from experience, I like to find out for sure. Have you ever done this to one of your cars? Do you know from experience that regrounding won't help out with any part of your cars driveability?


Have I done this to my own car? Have I gone through and cleaned up the grounding points? Sure have, several times. Never had to buy a part other than a replacement 50-cent wire connector.

You do what you want to your car. But if you make claims based on subjective, unquantified "seat of the pants" impressions, they are worthless. Likewise, if you make claims without presenting all of the surrounding data (again, the "health" of your car's other components), then it's again worthless.

By the way, it's the unquantified claims that the wannabe-racers with the "dumb" cars (and we know who they are, and BMW drivers are as guilty as Nissan or Honda drivers) love to believe, and who perpetuate the ignorance.

There is a guy in our club who has an old 2002. Perhaps we could do this for his car too.

"Do this" should be proper maintenance. Most 2002 owners are intimately familiar with old car maintenance, and know the difference between "in good condition" and scam claims of ebay marketers.

Go take your '95 740iL and run through the basic list of maintenance. Check your battery terminals, check your sparkplugs, refresh your O2 sensors, reset your DME, etc. Make sure your car is in good shape. Then go see if you can get a "grounding kit" to do anything other than lighten your wallet.


But again, I've read countless stories about guys who've regrounded their cars and saw a marked improvement in their vehicles.

Technical discussions have no room for hearsay or anecdotal experience. "I've read" that deer whistles and intake tornados work all sorts of miracles... until tested in a controlled environment when the scam gets exposed.

Ask yourself this; if these "miracle" grounding straps really made the car so much better, do you really think the vehicle manufacturer's engineers are really skimping on a piece of wire that has such "dramatic" effects? They spend millions of dollars developing tiny gains in the name of better operation, efficiency, and performance... do you think they're missing the "secret grounding strap" solution that would catapult them so far ahead of the competition?

Good grounding is good maintenance, and usually not even an issue in BMWs until they're nearly 20 years old... and then often a simple issue of battery terminal corrosion.

Fight the hype.

Guys from the sr20forum, please keep it there. If vqman "needs help" then he shouldn't even be talking about something in the first place.

Rules of technical discussion: no guessing, no BS. Understand it or hush and listen to those that do. When I have a Nissan question, I'll respectfully read the archives on sr20forum before saying anything.

What may apply to an older Nissan doesn't necessarily apply to a BMW... certainly not to an E38 7-series, which is what the original poster owns.



It was an absurd example meant to highlight the ridiculousness of the claim. If your car's wirting is losing so much conductivity that functionality is being affected, I'd guess that it's wired with strips of bubblegum wrappers.

A legitmate grounding issue is an interface corrosion issue; clean your ground bundles, check them for breaks, and checkthe battery terminals.

I'll repeat; modern BMWs have an abundance of grounding wires. The applicability of these "M-marketed" grounding bundles is prompted by the stereotype "racerboy" with huge APC stickers in his back window.




"Restore lost newness"?

I think you've just insulted the intelligence of anybody reading this thread!

That it happens to be on a BMW board is another issue altogether, yet a large part of it.

If you want to talk about Nissan problems, please do so on the Nissan boards. As for BMW problems, with quite a bit of experience diagnosing all sorts of BMW issues, I can assure you that it's not endemic. Besides, we BMW owners know how to clean wire contacts, thanks very much.




Therein lies the problem. Draw your information from those that know BMWs if you want to learn about BMWs. No offense - but it's like learning how to play basketball by relying on your skiing experience. Ask a basketball player what to do before putting on your parka.

I own a Nissan also. Except for the basic principles of internal combusion, the details and common issues are quite different than my same-year BMW!

My Nissan needed a new cap and rotor. Oops, the BMWs have coil-on-plug ignition. Totally different parts, different defect symptoms.

My Nissan needed new brakes. It has bolt-on rotor discs, not complete rotor/hat assemblies like the BMWs. Oops, completely different.

My Nissan needed new shocks. Oops, my BMW has coilover-style MacPherson struts. Completely different.

I thought about tweaking my Nissan's torsion bars. BMWs use springs.

Even something as simple as the oil filter; the Nissan has a screw-on cartridge, the BMW has a drop-in filter element.

By relying on any one of my Nissan "experience" points, I wouldn't be able to perform any of these jobs on my BMW... and vice-versa!

The list goes on, and the lessons learned on one vehicle may not apply to another. Sometimes they do, but often the important details are different.




Don't backpedal.

The original question was asking about the claims of the product advertised. The product doesn't do what it advertises, which includes an outlandish 15hp claim. It does exist as a bundle of overpriced wires, and that's about it.

I seriously doubt you'd take me up on the challenge even if you were local.

But at this point, you're not even making any significant claims at all, so it might be an easy bet for you to win. If the bet were simply "this wire will replace a broken OE wire", then you would win.




Don't damage-control an indefensible position. Older cars don't even need this, all they need is 5 minutes with a wire brush on the battery terminal and OE ground contact points.




You supported the product and happily ignored the fact that it is marketed on unrealistic claims. Any product marketed that way should be boycotted on the "scam" basis alone.

You also ignored the fact that it's replaceable by a $7 legitmate replacement grounding strap at any good auto parts store.

You also called me to task for, again, the inflated claims of increasing wire resistance... while it exists, it's typical "mountain out of a molehill" misdirection and obfuscation.



First, you know that's what the original poster was attracted to and was asking about. Second, you were never "bashed" except to have pointed out that your comments don't apply to typical BMW problems, and your "corrosion" explanation was inflated and of negligible effect on a thoroughly-grounded BMW.



No, by extending the bet I'm proving that you can't prove anything.



Now we're practicing obfuscation by complication. Nice.

Show me a good-condition car (which includes OE ground straps and battery terminals cleaned), and I'll show you a car that will show no differences other than dyno margin of error.



If you have a "large amp" that does not have it's own direct battery feed and is directly grounded to a chassis point with wiring of sufficient gauge, then that's one potential cause of your problem.

If you've got an amp that is overtaxing your alternator and your battery reserve, then that's a second potential cause and you do need a capacitor or second battery.

If your alternator is no longer putting out sufficient amperage, then that's a third potential cause. You may need a new alternator.

If your battery is old and has greater resistance, then that's a fourth potenetial cause. You may need a new battery.

This is called "troubleshooting". It's what people do when they want to figure out what the real problem is, and not throw racerboy junk in the car in the vain hope that the voodoo claims actually work.




Have I done this to my own car? Have I gone through and cleaned up the grounding points? Sure have, several times. Never had to buy a part other than a replacement 50-cent wire connector.

You do what you want to your car. But if you make claims based on subjective, unquantified "seat of the pants" impressions, they are worthless. Likewise, if you make claims without presenting all of the surrounding data (again, the "health" of your car's other components), then it's again worthless.

By the way, it's the unquantified claims that the wannabe-racers with the "dumb" cars (and we know who they are, and BMW drivers are as guilty as Nissan or Honda drivers) love to believe, and who perpetuate the ignorance.



"Do this" should be proper maintenance. Most 2002 owners are intimately familiar with old car maintenance, and know the difference between "in good condition" and scam claims of ebay marketers.

Go take your '95 740iL and run through the basic list of maintenance. Check your battery terminals, check your sparkplugs, refresh your O2 sensors, reset your DME, etc. Make sure your car is in good shape. Then go see if you can get a "grounding kit" to do anything other than lighten your wallet.




Technical discussions have no room for hearsay or anecdotal experience. "I've read" that deer whistles and intake tornados work all sorts of miracles... until tested in a controlled environment when the scam gets exposed.

Ask yourself this; if these "miracle" grounding straps really made the car so much better, do you really think the vehicle manufacturer's engineers are really skimping on a piece of wire that has such "dramatic" effects? They spend millions of dollars developing tiny gains in the name of better operation, efficiency, and performance... do you think they're missing the "secret grounding strap" solution that would catapult them so far ahead of the competition?

Good grounding is good maintenance, and usually not even an issue in BMWs until they're nearly 20 years old... and then often a simple issue of battery terminal corrosion.

Fight the hype.
Are you the loan rep for UUC?

If anyone is concerned about proper grounding, clean or replace your grounding cables with the ones that are designed for the car in the first place, not some flashy thing that is supposed to look cool and has outlandish claims about improving performance.Right on, I'm not referring specifically to this guys grounding kit, I'm just referring to grounding kits in general.

Are you the loan rep for UUC?

Are you the sales rep for the "M Tech Grounding Kit"? :lol

:eyecrazy

Rules of technical discussion: no guessing, no BS. Understand it or hush and listen to those that do.Have you ever installed a set of new grounding wires in your BMW or are you just guessing? If you haven't done it to an older BMW that was free of corrosion on any terminals and had new plugs and was in otherwise "healthy" condition as you described below, and then found that it gave no benefit, then you're guessing too.

It was an absurd example meant to highlight the ridiculousness of the claim. If your car's wiring is losing so much conductivity that functionality is being affected, I'd guess that it's wired with strips of bubblegum wrappers.or perhaps the wires have aged.


"Restore lost newness"?

I think you've just insulted the intelligence of anybody reading this thread!
That's what I've been told. It makes an older car idle a whole lot better, it restores a little bit of lost power and makes the interior lights brighter - among other minor things.

Therein lies the problem. Draw your information from those that know BMWs if you want to learn about BMWs. No offense - but it's like learning how to play basketball by relying on your skiing experience. Ask a basketball player what to do before putting on your parka.yeah, right, the differences between the two are that dramatic :rolleyes

I own a Nissan also. Except for the basic principles of internal combusion, the details and common issues are quite different than my same-year BMW!

My Nissan needed a new cap and rotor. Oops, the BMWs have coil-on-plug ignition. Totally different parts, different defect symptoms.Yeah, I've replaced the spark plugs on my e38, I'm aware of these differences..

My Nissan needed new brakes. It has bolt-on rotor discs, not complete rotor/hat assemblies like the BMWs. Oops, completely different. Drum brakes are a type of brakes that I'd call "completely" different.

My Nissan needed new shocks. Oops, my BMW has coilover-style MacPherson struts. Completely different.leaf springs like on a truck would be "completely" different IMO...

I thought about tweaking my Nissan's torsion bars. BMWs use springs.now that is a hell of a lot different.

Even something as simple as the oil filter; the Nissan has a screw-on cartridge, the BMW has a drop-in filter element.yeah, I've changed the oil in my (former) e36 M3 and my e38. This difference isn't significant IMO.

and you're point is taken about the differences, but BMW doesn't use different electrons, do they?

By relying on any one of my Nissan "experience" points, I wouldn't be able to perform any of these jobs on my BMW... and vice-versa!I was able to perform a couple of minor tasks, I changed my spark plugs and the oil and oil filter on my E38 without any prior work on BMW's. Both of these items you mentioned above. So is this really true?

Don't backpedal.I'm not back pedalling. When did I ever say it would gain 15 hp? Show me the quote.

The original question was asking about the claims of the product advertised. The product doesn't do what it advertises, which includes an outlandish 15hp claim. It does exist as a bundle of overpriced wires, and that's about it.the original question can be interpreted by different people different ways. He asked "Do these really do anything?" -- The way I read it "these" was a generic word and the question was about grounding straps, he didn't say "is this grounding strap worth a damn?" Or did I miss something? You obviously interpreted the question like this: "Will this set of grounding straps yeild me 15 horsepower?" And take note that this is a different interpretation than mine.

I seriously doubt you'd take me up on the challenge even if you were local.Because I never claimed they would net 15 hp gains. I said they would do something to make an older car run a little better. Again, show me where I ever said it would gain 15 hp. Now I can see how you may have interpreted what I said that way, but now I'm TELLING you, I didn't mean for my dialogue to be read that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Really. It's only back-pedalling in your head because you are so convinced that I meant that.

But at this point, you're not even making any significant claims at all, so it might be an easy bet for you to win.at this point I'm not making significant claims? At what point did I EVER make any significant claims? You interpreted my comments and took them for what you wanted to. I understand how that happens from time to time. In my last post I tried to clarify the point I was trying to get across. Which I never said you would gain 15 hp. And if you're going to be hung up on that, (you're initial interpretation of what you thought I was saying) then just forget this. I'm not going to argue with you about something that you think I meant when I said something and have repeatedly told you that I did not mean for it to be taken that way.

If the bet were simply "this wire will replace a broken OE wire", then you would win.I don't want to "win" anything. All I want to do with my resolution is actually find out for sure by doing this to an old 2002 and my E38. I want to really know because you and I - neither of us - have actually tried this have we?


Don't damage-control an indefensible position.If I'm damage controlling an indefensible position, it's a position that you have assumed I'm taking by misinterpreting my words. All I was doing was explaining to you how you misinterpreted what I said.

But I've heard that "yes" it does actually work. And I think that any horsepower gain has more to do with restoring power lost, not getting you "new" power. I don't think this is something they tell you to do to a new car. I focused on the "any" part of anything. Doing so I responded saying that they can help on older cars. In an attempt to play off the sellers hp claims I said that if you gain any power its really just restoring lost power due to old wires, and that this wouldn't be something to do on an newer car.My "explanation" of what I originally said is far less of a stretch of my words than you saying that I claimed it will give you a 15 hp gain 100% of the time.

You supported the product and happily ignored the fact that it is marketed on unrealistic claims. Any product marketed that way should be boycotted on the "scam" basis alone.I didn't ignore the claims, but I did direct my answer to what I felt the guy was asking. In my mind when I read the question "do these really do anything" and clicked on it and saw a set of grounding straps, I came back to the forum and supported grounding your cars electrical system with grounding straps, not that specific product. I didn't even see what gauge wire the guy was selling. And I still haven't looked at that. But you're right, I was really happy when I ignored the claims. ;)

You also ignored the fact that it's replaceable by a $7 legitmate replacement grounding strap at any good auto parts store.I didn't ignore such a $7 grounding strap. I said that they (grounding straps) can do something for your older car. I didn't take other products into consideration because I was generalizing just as I felt the starter of the thread was generalizing. "Do these really do anything?" That seems like a fairly general question to me.

You also called me to task for, again, the inflated claims of increasing wire resistance... while it exists, it's typical "mountain out of a molehill" misdirection and obfuscation.Saying that increased wire resistance is bad is like making a mountain out of a mole hill in regards to your cars electical system? hmm...interesting comment.


No, by extending the bet I'm proving that you can't prove anything.by extending that bet you're attempting to prove that one of your cars won't gain 15 hp, which isn't something I set out to prove in the first place. So why would I take the bet? And even if you use my terms of the (what I'm calling) solution, I will be doing it here, not in New Jersey and not on your car.


Now we're practicing obfuscation by complication. Nice. How was I talking in terms you can't understand? You're a tuner, right? I'm not. I imagine you've dyno'd a few more times than me and to find true gains or true non-gains we'd have to dyno the car before and after under the same environmental conditions. Right?

Show me a good-condition car (which includes OE ground straps and battery terminals cleaned), and I'll show you a car that will show no differences other than dyno margin of error.ok, I guess I don't understand what your point is or why you're telling me this. I understand that you're going to know a lot more about conditions and all of that at a dyno because I've only been to a dyno once. It was for research on a car of mine that wasn't putting down anywhere near the advertised HP claims. The car was claimed to have 255 hp but was only putting about 205 to the wheels. That's my only dyno experience. I was under the impression that barometric pressure, temperature, humidity and the like would affect dyno results. Especially when looking for minimal horsepower gain/loss. Maybe not. I don't know. I was asking you.

Have I done this to my own car? Have I gone through and cleaned up the grounding points? Sure have, several times. Never had to buy a part other than a replacement 50-cent wire connector.So you haven't installed new ground (and even power) wires?

You do what you want to your car. But if you make claims based on subjective, unquantified "seat of the pants" impressions, they are worthless.The only thing I know how to officially measure is the power output. How can I measure idle smoothness and the interior lights without being subjective? I'm not aware of any tests. But I'm open to them. Of course we'll have to do something that isn't subjective. Is there anyone in the KC area that you know from the community that you would trust their subjectiveness? I am active with the local club and could ask to borrow their time because I really want to see what happens myself. We're both speaking from inexperience on the subject if you haven't done this either.

Likewise, if you make claims without presenting all of the surrounding data (again, the "health" of your car's other components), then it's again worthless.Of course.


"Do this" should be proper maintenance. Most 2002 owners are intimately familiar with old car maintenance, and know the difference between "in good condition" and scam claims of ebay marketers. And I would agree that a 15 hp gain is a scam claim and keeping your electrical system corrosion free is proper maintenance.

Go take your '95 740iL and run through the basic list of maintenance. Check your battery terminals, check your sparkplugs, refresh your O2 sensors, reset your DME, etc. Make sure your car is in good shape. Then go see if you can get a "grounding kit" to do anything other than lighten your wallet.I just replaced my spark plugs last week, my battery terminals are shiny. What do you mean by "refresh" my o2 sensors? I'll do that before hand as well.I just had my local BMW dealership do an Inspection I,would that include reseting my DME?

Technical discussions have no room for hearsay or anecdotal experience. "I've read" that deer whistles and intake tornados work all sorts of miracles... until tested in a controlled environment when the scam gets exposed.until you've installed a quality grounding kit or new grounding/power wires (and I'm not saying this guy's selling a "quality" grounding kit) then you're speaking from hearsay just like me. :buttrock

Ask yourself this; if these "miracle" grounding straps really made the car so much better, do you really think the vehicle manufacturer's engineers are really skimping on a piece of wire that has such "dramatic" effects? They spend millions of dollars developing tiny gains in the name of better operation, efficiency, and performance... do you think they're missing the "secret grounding strap" solution that would catapult them so far ahead of the competition?Because car manufacturers cut corners and this is something that alledgedly only makes the car have problems when they're older.

Good grounding is good maintenance.I agree 100%

Are you the sales rep for the "M Tech Grounding Kit"? :lol
no really are you the only rep for UUC on the board? are you their spokesman?

my userID on ebay is "evqman".

vqman, you win. You're able to post more detail-obfuscating nonsense than anybody else.

"M Tech Grounding kits" still equal racerboy mythology and do nothing on a properly maintained BMW. The product is a rip-off scam for BMWs. Chasing down any poor-running condition with a bright red "///M" strap is a waste of time when there will be something else specifically requiring repair, cleaning, or maintenance.

And by the way, YES, I've installed additional grounding straps on BMWs. I AM speaking from experience. The various poor-running conditions have ALWAYS turned out to be something else, and were not aided by the new strap. At no time was "the feeling of newness restored". :lol

Just an FYI, and again it's because you simply have not been around BMWs long enough... especially in the older cars, many of the critical electrical systems' circuits have their own INDIVIDUAL grounds. That's why the grounding bundles are so many wires, and are so effective.

I am now selling Official fake alpina Cigarette lighters

as you can see from the picture It is very shiney... this means your car will go quicker. Because it has the Alpina Badge the lighter has an Alpina Chip to transform any 7 into a fully blown B12 or B7.

http://pics2.spoonfeeder.com/AieFTPFiles/AIEUser/WV5YY5Z7UUJP/S5WZDZB7D96L.jpg

only $4.99

Just read my feed back

I can't beleive I wasted my time with any performance parts, i plugged this in and my car now flys - Rob Levinson

:lol

Hey, that's pretty cool! I have two lighter sockets in stock configuration. If I put one in each position will I get twice the horsepower gains?

Hey, that's pretty cool! I have two lighter sockets in stock configuration. If I put one in each position will I get twice the horsepower gains?

Only if properly grounded. Order extra straps. :lol

Hey, that's pretty cool! I have two lighter sockets in stock configuration. If I put one in each position will I get twice the horsepower gains?

I'm with you on this one. We should get a group buy started.

I am now selling Official fake alpina Cigarette lighters

as you can see from the picture It is very shiney... this means your car will go quicker. Because it has the Alpina Badge the lighter has an Alpina Chip to transform any 7 into a fully blown B12 or B7.

http://pics2.spoonfeeder.com/AieFTPFiles/AIEUser/WV5YY5Z7UUJP/S5WZDZB7D96L.jpg

only $4.99

Just read my feed back



:lolthat's awesome..

vqman, you win. You're able to post more detail-obfuscating nonsense than anybody else.

"M Tech Grounding kits" still equal racerboy mythology and do nothing on a properly maintained BMW. The product is a rip-off scam for BMWs. Chasing down any poor-running condition with a bright red "///M" strap is a waste of time when there will be something else specifically requiring repair, cleaning, or maintenance.

And by the way, YES, I've installed additional grounding straps on BMWs. I AM speaking from experience. The various poor-running conditions have ALWAYS turned out to be something else, and were not aided by the new strap. At no time was "the feeling of newness restored". :lol

Just an FYI, and again it's because you simply have not been around BMWs long enough... especially in the older cars, many of the critical electrical systems' circuits have their own INDIVIDUAL grounds. That's why the grounding bundles are so many wires, and are so effective.I'm still wanting to know what you meant by "refreshing" my 02 sensors, and I just had my local BMW dealership do an Inspection I, would that include reseting my DME?

I'm still wanting to know what you meant by "refreshing" my 02 sensors, and I just had my local BMW dealership do an Inspection I, would that include reseting my DME?

Refresh = replace. By 10 years old (assuming normal mileage), they are no longer as sensitive or suffering from "reading drift" and will be operating sub-optimally. Especially with today's gas prices, new O2 sensors quickly pay for themselves in more efficient operation... mpg improvements often result.

That bit of information even applies to Nissans. :D

The dealership might not reset the DME unless specifically asked to do so.

- Rob

Refresh = replace. By 10 years old (assuming normal mileage), they are no longer as sensitive or suffering from "reading drift" and will be operating sub-optimally. Especially with today's gas prices, new O2 sensors quickly pay for themselves in more efficient operation... mpg improvements often result.

That bit of information even applies to Nissans. :D

The dealership might not reset the DME unless specifically asked to do so.

- Roboh ok, that must be bimmer talk for replace. :D

yeah, I was considering replacing those soon as part of the spark plug replacement and general tune-up. With the term "refresh" I thought maybe you meant there was something I could do besides replace them that would increase their effectiveness. I replaced the one on my SE-R and didn't see any gains in fuel economy though. Even after I gave it 2 or 3 gas tanks to let the computer adjust to the new sensors. I imagine the E38 has at least 2 though.

oh ok, that must be bimmer talk for replace. :D

At least I didn't say "they perish"... that's Brit-talk.

I replaced the one on my SE-R and didn't see any gains in fuel economy though.

That would be another Nissan, right? :D

I imagine the E38 has at least 2 though.

If your '95 740 has the 4.0l M60 motor, then yes - just 2 O2 sensors. If you have the 4.4l M62, then 4 sensors.

- Rob

At least I didn't say "they perish"... that's Brit-talk.



That would be another Nissan, right? :D



If your '95 740 has the 4.0l M60 motor, then yes - just 2 O2 sensors. If you have the 4.4l M62, then 4 sensors.

- Rob
whoa, thank god for the 4.0..