Once again I am turning to you guys as the experts. Here is my current system:

CDT Audio EF-51's (Front)
CDT 5.25 Coaxials (rear)
JL Audio 300/4 powering all four speakers
JL Audio 10w3V2 sealed box (Trunk, w/ ski pass cut out)
JL Audio 250/1 Amp

I am a little dissapointed with the interior speakers I chose. I think the midbass is a little weak and the off-axis reponse from the tweeters are fair.

I was looking for suggestions on upgrades. Is it possible that there is mismatch between the amp and speakers?

Should I consider a new amp or an upgrade to the components?

Also I have the tweeters installed in the doors of an E39 where the midrange used to be. Would it be better to have them in the sail panels?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Once again I am turning to you guys as the experts. Here is my current system:

CDT Audio EF-51's (Front)
CDT 5.25 Coaxials (rear)
JL Audio 300/4 powering all four speakers
JL Audio 10w3V2 sealed box (Trunk, w/ ski pass cut out)
JL Audio 250/1 Amp

I am a little dissapointed with the interior speakers I chose. I think the midbass is a little weak and the off-axis reponse from the tweeters are fair.

I was looking for suggestions on upgrades. Is it possible that there is mismatch between the amp and speakers?

Should I consider a new amp or an upgrade to the components?

Also I have the tweeters installed in the doors of an E39 where the midrange used to be. Would it be better to have them in the sail panels?

Thanks in advance for your help.

I would have put the tweets in the stock location.
Try that before buying any new equipment, it should be fairly easy to make the change. if that doesnt work, maybe higher end speakers?
DLS UP5
CDT HD51
Both are big step up from the speakers you have installed. That is a good amp so I wouldnt worry about changing it out, the difference would probably not be very noticeable.

That is a good amp so I wouldnt worry about changing it out, the difference would probably not be very noticeable.

A bit of projection, perhaps?


Based on your assessment of the sound, I have a couple of questions:

1) Is the midbass driver in the ABS enclosure behind the door?

2) Does the CDT xover have tweeter output level settings/taps? Which did you use?

3) Where is your xover set? What happens if you lower the front xover point?

4) What is your experiential, rather than interpretive, issue with the tweeters? (What does it SOUND like?)

1) Yes the midbass driver is in the ABS enclosure behind the door

2) Yes the CDT comps have adjustable crossovers. I have them set to flat. When installed they were set to -3db.

3) As for the crossover (if you mean on the amp) its set to about 65hz. Looks like there is a little room to go lower.

4)As for the sound. Seems like unless I am sitting in just the right spot with the tweeters I am missing a part of the sound reproduction.

I readl all this about how pleased you guys are with your systems. I feel that I have fairly decent equipment and I should be more than happy with the sound, but I am not.

4)As for the sound. Seems like unless I am sitting in just the right spot with the tweeters I am missing a part of the sound reproduction.
.

What part?

And remember, this is for science, so be honest.

The crashing highs and the punchy midbass.

So in other words, the speakers provide just middle of the road performance.

The crashing highs and the punchy midbass.

So in other words, the speakers provide just middle of the road performance.

The thing I would try FIRST, before you do ANYTHING ELSE, is to bridge your 300/4 to the front stage only. You will need 2 RCA 'Y'-adaptors (couple of bucks at RadioShack.) Here's what to do:

1) Disconnect the stereo RCA cable to the the inputs for Channels 3 and 4 and wrap up the ends of the jacks with electrical tape to insulate them.

2) Plug the Y adaptors into the RCA cable for inputs 1 and 2 and connect the Y adaptors up appropriately (split the white cable into both white inputs, split the red cable into both red inputs.)

3) BEFORE you hook up the speakers, use a DMM and the tutorial that is stickied at the top of the forum to set the amplifier gains. Shoot for 24-25V BRIDGED across channels 1 and 2 and across channels 3 and 4.

4) Bridge channels 1 and 2 into the left channel CDT crossover, and bridge channels 3 and 4 into the right channel CDT crossover.

I think that your biggest problem is that you are underpowering the front stage. You don't NEED rear speakers anyway, so, for the sake of experimentation, disconnect them. This is going to allow you to send 150W per side to your front speakers, which will get them going. I have 160W going to each side of my CDT EF front stage and they sound fantastic.

Also, I think that yout tweeter is too low to sound right. Relocating it to the stock sail panel location would be an improvement. Better yet would be to mount the surface-mount pod on the A-pillar trim. Put the tweets at somewhere between chin level and eye level and fire them across the dashboard for the best stereo image.

Finally, I think that ONE of the reasons you have disappointing midbass is that the speakers are not well baffled from the cabin. My kickpanel-mounted EF-5 woofers are installed on a dampened panel with the thick bead of weatherstripping to acoustically isolate the backside of the speaker from the cabin and they produce A LOT of midbass. In fact, my car has a pretty noticable peak in the 250-315 Hz range and I am currently shopping for a new HU with better equalization to dial it out.

Make sure that no sound from the back side of the woofer is able to leak into the cabin. Use modeling clay, weatherstripping, deadener, etc, to seal it up.

What you shouldn't do is go out and buy new speakers! I think that this is 100% an installation/setup problem. Those speakers, when installed properly, sound better than great. Try bridging the amp for more power to the front stage because that it the biggest problem that I see right off the bat.

The crashing highs and the punchy midbass.

So in other words, the speakers provide just middle of the road performance.

Yeah, other, vague, words. Why asssume that middle-of-the-road speakers can't have weak mids and lots of midbass and highs? :)



If you don't get the midrange right, nothing else matters

J Gordon Holt

I am looking forward to being fascinated by your results with the amp bridging.

However, I also think that using thick foam weatherstripping tape from Home Depot could help with the peakiness in the lower midrange which probably causes a steeper rolloff at too high a point on the midbass performance. If you come up with a good sealing method you could ditch the enclosure.

As far as the tweeters go, the sail in the E39 is a tough place to get into. I'd test with double-stick tape before going to all that work.

I am looking forward to being fascinated by your results with the amp bridging.

You are looking forward to ne facsinated by his results? Or you are fascinated to see what his results will be?

:D

What makes you think his results will be fascinating in the least? ;)

Thanks.

Couldnt I achieve a similar power result by just turning up the gains on the amp to the front channels and dialing down the rears?

Unlike the thoughts of many, I do need rear channels. I often have rear passengers (aka kids) who actually listen to music.

As for the other suggestions on tweeter placement, I have been told by my installer that the sail panels are indeed tough to get into. The oem tweeters somehow hold them in?

First I will address the power issue. Then I have a look at the midbass install. Lastly I will consider the relocation of the tweeters.

Hopefully I will be fascinated also.

Thanks.

Couldnt I achieve a similar power result by just turning up the gains on the amp to the front channels and dialing down the rears?

Unlike the thoughts of many, I do need rear channels. I often have rear passengers (aka kids) who actually listen to music.

As for the other suggestions on tweeter placement, I have been told by my installer that the sail panels are indeed tough to get into. The oem tweeters somehow hold them in?

First I will address the power issue. Then I have a look at the midbass install. Lastly I will consider the relocation of the tweeters.

Hopefully I will be fascinated also.
bmwtips.com - check the DSP stereo archive thread, there is a ton of infor there and also pictures and instructions on installing speakers.

Thanks.

Couldnt I achieve a similar power result by just turning up the gains on the amp to the front channels and dialing down the rears?

No.

I think that you are underpowering your speakers. If you've never set the gains properly, it is possible that they are set way too low. Which means, basically, that your HU's volume control ss running out of headroom long before your amp.

The symptoms of this could either be 1) the stereo just doesn't get very loud, or 2) the stereo doens't get lound and it also kind of thin/weak sounding.

If the stereo can achieve ear-piercing, skull-splitting volume levels yet still sounds thin, then it in not a power issue.

However, I have the same speakers you do. When I set my gains, I used a 1 KHz sinusoidal test tone recorded at 0 dB and played it in my HU with the
volume control set to 27 (out of 33). I adjested that gains to where I measured an output voltage (at the amp's speaker terminals) of around 25V. This is roughly 160W per channel, which is what my amp is rated for. If I put in The Eagles Hell Freezes Over disc, I can turn the volume up to 24-25 and it is ear-splittingly loud. A good listening volume for that disc cruising down the interstate is perhaps 19-21.


Unlike the thoughts of many, I do need rear channels. I often have rear passengers (aka kids) who actually listen to music.

You may need a bigger amp, then.

As for the other suggestions on tweeter placement, I have been told by my installer that the sail panels are indeed tough to get into. The oem tweeters somehow hold them in?

First I will address the power issue. Then I have a look at the midbass install. Lastly I will consider the relocation of the tweeters.

Hopefully I will be fascinated also.

I think that a lot of your problem is due to installation of the midbass speakers. I'll bet you are getting air leaks around them and, as a result, phase cancellation. This will kill midbass response.

No 5-1/4 inch speaker is going to have killer, pantleg-snapping midbass. Howeber, these CDTs are capable of producing great midbass for their size.

As far as the tweets, you are never going to get good response or stereo imaging with them mounted halfway down the door. If your car doesn't have side-curtain airbags in the A-pillars, I would strongly recommend trying to mount them up there and fire them across the width of the cabin.

Good luck. Let us know what you find out.

But I think his car does have A-pillar bags... at least the E39's I've seen do.

You have way lost me on the sinusidial test note, etc. etc.

I had a "professional" installer do this work. Sounds to me like you may a professional yourself. Too bad your in St. Louis otherwise I would pay you a visit.

As for the volume, unfortunately on the factory E39 headunit there is no numbers so you don't know how high its set.

And the tweeters are mounted at the top of the door, not halfway down. I do have the side airbags that come out of the A pillar so thats not an option.

You have way lost me on the sinusidial test note, etc. etc.

I had a "professional" installer do this work. Sounds to me like you may a professional yourself. Too bad your in St. Louis otherwise I would pay you a visit.

As for the volume, unfortunately on the factory E39 headunit there is no numbers so you don't know how high its set.

And the tweeters are mounted at the top of the door, not halfway down. I do have the side airbags that come out of the A pillar so thats not an option.

I'm not a professional, but I play one on Bf.C.

Here, check out this thread:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359551

A sinusoidal test tone is a sine wave of a single frequency (50 Hz, 100 Hz, 1 KHz, etc.) recorded at a specific reference volume level (0 db, -1 db, etc.) This can come from a tone generator or a playback source (CD.)

Som what you want to do is download a 1 KHz, 0 dB test tone from the link in Eric's thread, burn it onto a disc, and then follow the rest of the steps in his post (no need to repeat them here.)

Make sure you disconnect the speaker leads from the amp outputs before you do this, unless you like the smell of burning voice-coils.

What I would do first is set that gains so that when the reciever volume knob is turned approximately 75% to full volume, you are getting a reference voltage of about 17.3V from the amp output. This equals about 75W of power output.

If the speakers still aren't giving you what you want, then try bridging the amp to the front stage only.

Concurrently, you also need to make sure that the rear chamber of the speaker is acoustically isolated from the cabin, because any leakage will result in phase cancellation and kill your midbass response.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Yes, please.

Some of us professionally pragmatic guys are curious :)

Ok so I have finally had a chance to go along with your suggestions.

I have disconnected the rears, bridged the two channels and I am now feeding the EF's 150 per side with the gains properly adjusted.

I find that they dont really go below 75hz.

You were right, there is a really noticeable difference. The speakers now seem alive!

One additional question though. The crossovers (Satnet 480) have an input for an image tweeter. Can I connect the original factory tweeter (still mounted in the sail panel) to this?

Will I be feeding them too much power or are the image tweeters fed less of the amps power? I was kind of thinking this would bring up the sound stage.

Make any sense?