Looking for about 130kw (flywheel)


Opinions needed please :)

If you have the time and money go with the turbo. The m10 is a very strong engine and can do wonders. M20 isnt also a bad idea, but I'm more biased towards tubo m10.

if you only want 130kw, go with the engine swap. Maybe even think about an M50 swap, probably be able to pickup a 2.5L M50 for a similar price as the 2.5L M20 down here, bloody expensive things.

i'm biased towards the turbo m10 too :)

altho, seeing as how there's more availibility of 6-cyl e21's in Aus, it would probably be slightly easier & maybe cheaper (depending if you wanted to have a way more than a 130kw setup) to do the m20 swap.

i'm biased towards the turbo m10 too :)

altho, seeing as how there's more availibility of 6-cyl e21's in Aus, it would probably be slightly easier & maybe cheaper (depending if you wanted to have a way more than a 130kw setup) to do the m20 swap.

If - and the big thing is if you have the resources I am partial to the m20 swap first and turboing second.

Thanks guys......... some good points raised!! Valid about the M50 too Hatter!

I love the idea of a 4cyl E21. It's just so raw :)

Yes, we have an abundance of 323i E21's down here and would make it pretty easy for the swap..... but mmmmmmmm turbo!

Also.... I have access to a 2.0l M10 block and have a spare 318i head, standard exhaust manifold and intake manifold.

Will be going Megasuirt injection and MSD igniton or similar if I persue this avenue.

RX7 Rotary Wankel twin turbo motor. B20 190bhp 240lbs, half the weight of the M10-very easy to rebuild. Revs to 9k RPM.


http://photos.bimmerforums.com/data/518/medium/Paul-Engine-12-29-01-5.jpg

Tell me what you think of them

Tell me what you think of them

waterpump? :stickoutt

I dont think you will have the problems the E30 guys face with M50 installs either windy, given the location of the E21 booster on the cars, engine bay is pretty open once you remove the battery.

Given your power goals, for ease of running, insurance and probably cost, i think i might look at a 6 transplant before going the turbo route of the M10. Its probably going to come out a bit cheaper if you have a budget in mind

[QUOTE=Dickfruster]RX7 Rotary Wankel twin turbo motor. B20 190bhp 240lbs, half the weight of the M10-very easy to rebuild. Revs to 9k RPM.


a rx-7 wankel really weights half the weight of an m10? that's like 90 lbs.

around 120 lb, but the newer ones have 3 rotars instead of 2 like this one. The three rotar one is from the 3 rd gen RX7. This one up top is without turbos, has the same output as a M10. Look how small it is. When you put it the bay it looks like an extension of the bellhousing. Thats a 1.5 liter, no valves, only 3 moving parts, 4 plugs, and if you wish two turbos on the two exhaust ports. There is small intake that goes on top with a carb or injectors.

Its pretty cool to rebuild them. The only part that can be reused is the rotor (2 of them), the housings are usually new from mazda, + $100 set of gaskets and apex seals (alternative of oil/compression rings)



The M10, no matter how you tilt the thing, wont come close to this weight distribution. he he he

waterpump? :stickoutt

I dont think you will have the problems the E30 guys face with M50 installs either windy, given the location of the E21 booster on the cars, engine bay is pretty open once you remove the battery.

Given your power goals, for ease of running, insurance and probably cost, i think i might look at a 6 transplant before going the turbo route of the M10. Its probably going to come out a bit cheaper if you have a budget in mind


I know madhatter hides some bicycle pedals chained to the rear under his floor!!

heheheheh Ummmmmmm rotors.......not my cuppa.

Rod (hatter), I do have a budget. It's not gonna be one of those crazy buildups for 500HP. Getting another car, so can work on the E21 little by little.

6cyl is sounding good. Just a big changeover of sub frame, gearbox, tail shaft........... the 3.9:1 diff can stay though :)

just for fun:

check this one out

http://www.bryanf.com/510/design.htm

hehehe that's wicked!!

Windy, well your M10 box is surposed to fit the M50 too, so you should be able to use the 5 speed you have now if you went that way :)

And yeah, i figured you would have some kind of budget, i wasnt expecting you to want to build some stupid engine, i was only talking about things within your target of 130kw. Depending on just how cheap you can pickup the engine for (probably looking at somewhere around $1200-$1500 for a complete, including loom and ecu, M20 2.5L or an M50 2.5L) the turbo install could come out at double the cost of the 6 cylinder swap.

You have 323i stuff on yours now too dont you? brakes, hubs etc?

Dickfruster, If you were talking about triple rotors, you mean the 20B? didnt know they were in RX7's, cosmo's yes, but 13B's are twin rotors (even the later model REW and the new renesis is still twin rotor, so what is all that stuff you were talking about?). Aside from that, it's not exactly a common thing down here, nor is it cheap. Dont get started on listing capacity either, rotor size might only add up to 1300cc, but because of the cycle they are double the size when you try to compare them to piston engines (which doesnt work very well). You are a little off on your weights too mate, they arent as light as you make out, a 13B with accessories is closer to 270lbs dry (before you start adding coolers, etc, or even turbos). How is that half an M10? bare long motor dry weighs like 180lbs, with starter, alternator etc they would come out at a similar weight as the 13B.

It doesnt matter thaet are all a12 design, and they are light. People can lift one off the floor easily, since there is no that haeavy ass block. All sources say they are twice as light. And they are small since they do have same size strokes, but there is no head, no big ass pan,no crank on the bottom.

I know that 0.5liter 2 rotor wankel is 60kg with all the accesosaries on it which is 100lbs. So i think the the bigger motor would add up to 200lbs max. I think you are the first person that said that they almost as heavy as an M10.
The diplacecement of the older motors should be around 1000-15000 cc.

The 20b engine is relatively rare everywhere, expensive. But the rest is no problem. I dont believe that in Australia, being so close to Japan, doesnt have any those fine motors.

And I wasnt talking about the 3 rotor design. You can turbo any of those and with porting get the same amount of power at 10 pounds of boost. The new core for the motor is $1600.


They even build drag cars with those . They are cool, admit it

An m10 turbo would be great. are there still turbo manifolds available, because i would love to get my hands on one

Easiest way to make a manifold for a turbo m10 : take the stock exhaust manifold, cut off the tip, and have a shop weld a t3/t4 adapter plate on in.. that's what I plan to do anyways.

cartech & maybe even TCD might have m10 cast iron log manifolds available...
you can also search around for the BAE, Century, or Callaway 320i turbo kits.

and for a nearly equal length tubular steel manifold, proturbo.fi makes them...however, that manifold puts the rear of the turbo's exhaust housing close to the fender-well (so, using an internal wastegate actuator will be a tight fit...some fender modification will probably be needed for that).

I have the proturbo.fi manifold...here's the latest pic:
http://photos.bimmerforums.com/data/518/medium/IMG_0132.JPG
:alright

uh hem..i don't think that will work on a aussie e21. there seems to be the booster in the way:(

and yes windy that 2L is still sitting here:stickoutt
should come down some day a check things out.
i think brad has a spare m20 lying around

*edit* jbob that thing is nuts:)

Yeah we have steering and brakes on the right, so it might be hard to do this the turbo way.

Reckon I could get 110kw N/A from the m10?? I'd be happy with that?!

James (mad lil e21) yes, I'll come down one day and check out the goodies :)

i'm biased towards the turbo m10 too :)

altho, seeing as how there's more availibility of 6-cyl e21's in Aus, it would probably be slightly easier & maybe cheaper (depending if you wanted to have a way more than a 130kw setup) to do the m20 swap.

can you walk me through the efi setup you have
please .................

check this out
http://www.theeurodepot.com/e30m50.html
These guys have most things covered on the e30 swap. i cant see why the e21 swap would be any harder.
There was a old fast 4 and rotary mag. im thinking 1994 that had a 13b in a e21. it was a green e21. I am trying to find the mag. its in one of the boxes of old 4cyl mags i got as a kid. i have found pics of it amognst other cars but still havent found the one with the story.
In fact there is a e30 for sale over here with a 13b in it for sale, i think he wants 6k for it.
Also check out the april2006 hot4s for a sr20det conversion in a e30. but that one sounds like a mish.

I have been thinking very hard about the m50 swap. The cost of a m20 here is the same as a m50. the m50 is heaver but i think the posability of more easy hp is very tempting. intake exaust, tweek the ecu, and you will have more than your 130kw, and you get a modern efi, dohc motor that will use less fuel and make more power than a m20. and if you shop right you will get vanos. ummmmm. i have seen some comments on here about the extra weight, but the extra hp on tap will make up for a bit of extra pies.

Dick
they might only be 1200cc but they drink petrol like a v8, yes they are light, but no where as light as you make them out to be. Yes they are common on drag strips and it is not strange to see them do 9s, and be road leagal.
you cant just slap a turbo on the side of one. you need to get turbo rotors to lower the comp ratio.

imo They are bastards. my mates one, if it wont start 2nd try walk away and wait 5 min then try again, they are tempramental, at the best of times.(not all, the newer efi ons are much much better.)Thy are loud nd the cops love to hate them.
ive seen rotas in almost every thing down here.
My mate at school had one in a mk1 escort. (the english ones) That thing was fucking crazy.

and like hatter said its 20b and its 12a, Mazda produced 4 main models 10a, 12a,13b and 20b. I also have a article about a guy with 1/2 a 10a in a speedway car.

Tell me what you think of them

who gives a shit. If you want a rotary, buy an rx7. Yes, I think it's an excellent design and has many benifits over a piston engine. I guess I'm a purist, it belongs in a mazda and the boat ancor under my bmw hood has to have a roundel on the valve cover.

Windy, before making your decision, see if you can drive close examples of an m10 turbo and a healthy m20 E21 or E30 and see what you like the best. I would prefer the m20b27 swap but went turbo cause I had so much invested in my low compression m10 (built it before the forums and before I knew anything about other available engines).

windy...mine is not 100% healthy.
but when i do my suspension i'll give ya a burl.
with the gone shocks in the rear it just tramps down and goes nowhere. just a whole lot of wheel spin(which you have seen).
i must punch a hole through my mufflers when i am about to redo them and rip it up...fast passes etc on vid, on a private road of course;)

Driving 2.3L m20's remind me of the earlier twin cam alfa motors, even the lotus motors found in cortina's. Bit of a flat spot down low when the revs build, above 3500rpm everything seems to open up and it stacks on the power and the revs.

Driving 2.3L m20's remind me of the earlier twin cam alfa motors, even the lotus motors found in cortina's. Bit of a flat spot down low when the revs build, above 3500rpm everything seems to open up and it stacks on the power and the revs.

yep:)
around 3000-3300 mine just takes off and starts to wind off the tacho, a bit of practice and you drop it in the next gear at the right time you stay in the power band:buttrock