Guys !

we are starting to buy parts to build an M3 GTR(S62 V8), We already got the motor/tranny engine management... but here is my question:

I was considering using a non-M3 chassis since all the original stuff will be replaced (motor, brakes, etc). What are the differences in the chassis apart from the rear subframe and diff (which I heard is a bolt-on on regular E46), the wide fenders (the car will be even wider anyway), interior, engine(all garbage for us), etc. You guys would have any good reason in this case to use an M3 tub????

fenders were the same

IIRC the rear subframe mounts were a bit beefier in the M3.

But really, it's the same car.

Hmm, you are trying to build an M3 GTR, and asked this question...OIY!

You can use any chassis you want really.

Are you sourcing the suspension from PTG, or making it yourself? If you have that wide of a body and use 305 slicks all around, then you are going to need Wide track suspension.

I hope you mean M3 GTR not just a V8 M3...thats been done, and is expensive if you get the tuning wrong (v8 go kaboom).

Talk to Fall Line, they have a clean V8 m3 thats been on the track a few times.

Also, who are you having tune the Motec?

You building this for BMWCCA CR BM?

Definitely keep a photo record of the project and keep us posted! From some of the recent PMI stuff i've seen, this should be an interesting project for sure. Enjoy the build, it should be a fun one.

And just to clarify...this is different then the 330i "gtr" tuner transformation car, right?

Are you sourcing the suspension from PTG, or making it yourself? If you have that wide of a body and use 305 slicks all around, then you are going to need Wide track suspension.



Based on my personal experience with widebody e36 racecar, I would emphatically disagree with the assumption that the suspension needs to be special for wide track. You could spend lots of extra bucks on something "specially designed" and not do any better than commonly known go-fast parts available from any number of vendors. I used the Turner Motorsport World Challenge bars and regular e36 Moton coilover 3ways for a machine that handled like it was on a rail and beat several cars with much better power to weight ratios using the superior handling advantage.

Based on my personal experience with widebody e36 racecar, I would emphatically disagree with the assumption that the suspension needs to be special for wide track. You could spend lots of extra bucks on something "specially designed" and not do any better than commonly known go-fast parts available from any number of vendors. I used the Turner Motorsport World Challenge bars and regular e36 Moton coilover 3ways for a machine that handled like it was on a rail and beat several cars with much better power to weight ratios using the superior handling advantage.

You are including driver as the main variable though...You need to exclude the driver from the equation. To take advantage of the widebody and big tires, you would either have to space the wheels out (bad idea), use crazy offset wheels (also not a great idea) or have the suspension designed for it.

Mike, how were your lap times compared to WCGT, and Grand Am GS? Thats the determining factor, since just beating someone else does not say much at this amatuer level...we beat the M3 GTR from PTG, does that mean watts CAR is faster, hellz no!

You are including driver as the main variable though...You need to exclude the driver from the equation. To take advantage of the widebody and big tires, you would either have to space the wheels out (bad idea), use crazy offset wheels (also not a great idea) or have the suspension designed for it.

Mike, how were your lap times compared to WCGT, and Grand Am GS? Thats the determining factor, since just beating someone else does not say much at this amatuer level...we beat the M3 GTR from PTG, does that mean watts CAR is faster, hellz no!

I was trying not to factor the large driver (the reason I prefer the lighter weight e30 chassis) into the comparison as I was still able to finish in front of notable pro drivers in a few races with that underpowered (as described by several of the IP crowd compared to most CM cars) race car.

E46 M3 rear fitment 18 x 10 wheels from Tirerack is not some "crazy offset". 25mm spacers are commonplace.

The laptimes at that time were not bad...especially considering my car weighed over 3000lbs with me in it and had only 221rwhp on Mustang dyno at one time and a peak of 256rwhp on the same dyno compared to considerably MORE on those WCGT and GACGS cars. The 2:04s we ran at WGI using those crazy spacers and wheel fitment on my e30 with an S50B32 with cams/airbox/tuning and Ground Control AD/DA shocks didn't stack-up too poorly with those pro cars that all have more than 400hp and mega suspension tuning did they? :)

Guys let`s stay on topic here!!:wavey Just kidding!

Ok here it is, I said M3 GTR because people usually refer to a widebody E46 M3 with a S62 as a GTR... But we do not inted in copying PTG an any way... It would be way too expensive... Think something more like the fall-line car but widebody and with over 500hp...With KW or Moton suspension...

So I take it that there is no real advantage in using a M3 tub?

Thanks

BTW I own a new team called GT Racing... We have now have a bunch of cars...
- 3 BMW`s
- 4 factory Hyundai Tiburons (ex: Key Motorsport Grand-am cars)
- 1 Corolla XRS we will build for a TV show...

Seb is still running PMI but without me... I am sure he will keep the business running well!

I hope you mean M3 GTR not just a V8 M3...thats been done, and is expensive if you get the tuning wrong (v8 go kaboom).


Since when a 500hp V8 E46 M3 has become ``just`` a common occurence??? Still gets me excited:dunno

Since when a 500hp V8 E46 M3 has become ``just`` a common occurence??? Still gets me excited:dunno

Oh its a great sight to see, but its not revolutionary anymore, there other alternatives that are significantly cheaper and easier to run that are just as fast.

Plus, if you look at some european series, they are taking everything to the next level. (i.e. belcar)

I'm waiting for a crate V10 to be dropped into an E46/E90.

I agree...

But the fact that the V8 is about the same weight as the 6, I am not sure of better more reliable ways to make a regular M3 faster, you will spend at least 25k on the motor before you approach a reliable 500hp with the 6 cyl!

I am not trying to be revolutionary here; just fast:D

But you like the idea of putting it in an E90 better, I am sure it`s not any harder! Wow that would be good:eek:

I agree...

But the fact that the V8 is about the same weight as the 6, I am not sure of better more reliable ways to make a regular M3 faster, you will spend at least 25k on the motor before you approach a reliable 500hp with the 6 cyl!

I am not trying to be revolutionary here; just fast:D

But you like the idea of putting it in an E90 better, I am sure it`s not any harder! Wow that would be good:eek:

E90 is just heavy :( E46 M3 you can get a carbon roof, etc for. You can get the e46 much lighter with a slightly bigger wallet.

Biggest issue with the V8 is the tuning...let me see the dyno when you get the 500hp, i'm interested to see what it looks like.

Whats the weight of the S62 with everything? I think it uses a very similar (if not the same as far as physical weight) as the S54, so that should not be an issue.

I'm interested to see what your project will weigh wet, when do you plan on it being finished?

I assume its just being built for BMWCCA? Or are there CND series you can run with it?

Did you guys already get the setup to control the motor, or are you going to figure it out as you go along?

E46 M3 rear fitment 18 x 10 wheels from Tirerack is not some "crazy offset". 25mm spacers are commonplace.


1. You'll need bigger than 10".
2. I'd never use a 25mm spacer :eek:


The laptimes at that time were not bad...especially considering my car weighed over 3000lbs with me in it and had only 221rwhp on Mustang dyno at one time and a peak of 256rwhp on the same dyno compared to considerably MORE on those WCGT and GACGS cars. The 2:04s we ran at WGI using those crazy spacers and wheel fitment on my e30 with an S50B32 with cams/airbox/tuning and Ground Control AD/DA shocks didn't stack-up too poorly with those pro cars that all have more than 400hp and mega suspension tuning did they? :)

There were a couple guys running 04's at the Glen, impressive, but can go faster for sure.

When did WCGT run at the Glen?

In 2005, the PTG M3's in Rolex ran 1:57's, which considering the rules, CM can be beyond the rules. Even in 2001 the m3's were running high 158's.

What i like is the PCA gt3s's are only running 2:00's, and the GTP/GTC/GT1 cars they run are only doing 1:55, so you guys are damn fast comparitively!

I think there's so many variables, we can't say one thing is better than the other, and your 2:04 is very fast, but I think considering the rules, these cars can go way faster with a driver that can push them. At VIR we saw Ike's car get into the 02's, and nothing against Ike, but the guy he had was pretty damn fast, and that was his first time there I believe. Put him in that V8 GTR that was there, and he should have been down to like 1:54-1:55. Andy got into the 03's and thats with pretty much a stock powered Euro 3.2, with only a couple small adjustments made since it was assembled, and it was on scrubs for the most part of the weekend (ikes motor is very powerful).

S62=348lbs.
S54=326lbs.
S50=333lbs.
Pretty damn close.

I'lk take the S70/2 though :) 618bhp, 479trq, 266kg :)
http://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq/grfx/s702.jpg

At VIR we saw Ike's car get into the 02's, and nothing against Ike, but the guy he had was pretty damn fast, and that was his first time there I believe. Put him in that V8 GTR that was there, and he should have been down to like 1:54-1:55.


It was my friend Aaron Povoledo; good driver... Very fast. Ran wheel to wheel with him, lots of fun!

S62=348lbs.
S54=326lbs.
S50=333lbs.
Pretty damn close.

I'lk take the S70/2 though :) 618bhp, 479trq, 266kg :)
http://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq/grfx/s702.jpg

Is that including all acessories? We will probably go with an electric water pump...

Thats just the spec running weight of the motor.

Obviously its not production spec, so it'll be lighter until you add things like Dry Sump, and whatnot.

havent read much past the original post, but good luck man, sounds like a sick project! I dont know if anyone said that I think the GTR did not have a sunroof, so you'll have to weld in a plate, im sure you know this tho, work your magic. keep us posted,have fun and good luck! My dream is replicate the E36 M3 GTR, for obvious reasons.

If you are using an E46 (m3) chassis, i'd hope you are using the Carbon roof. Toss in a couple other nice Carbon components and you got a nice package.

Chuck, what widebody are you using?

Here are some cool components evosport offers.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=453577

havent read much past the original post, but good luck man, sounds like a sick project! I dont know if anyone said that I think the GTR did not have a sunroof, so you'll have to weld in a plate, im sure you know this tho, work your magic. keep us posted,have fun and good luck! My dream is replicate the E36 M3 GTR, for obvious reasons.

Thanks! It will be a while tho! Probably won`t see the track this year... But next year for sure...

1. You'll need bigger than 10".
2. I'd never use a 25mm spacer :eek:



There were a couple guys running 04's at the Glen, impressive, but can go faster for sure.

When did WCGT run at the Glen?

In 2005, the PTG M3's in Rolex ran 1:57's, which considering the rules, CM can be beyond the rules. Even in 2001 the m3's were running high 158's.

What i like is the PCA gt3s's are only running 2:00's, and the GTP/GTC/GT1 cars they run are only doing 1:55, so you guys are damn fast comparitively!

I think there's so many variables, we can't say one thing is better than the other, and your 2:04 is very fast, but I think considering the rules, these cars can go way faster with a driver that can push them. At VIR we saw Ike's car get into the 02's, and nothing against Ike, but the guy he had was pretty damn fast, and that was his first time there I believe. Put him in that V8 GTR that was there, and he should have been down to like 1:54-1:55. Andy got into the 03's and thats with pretty much a stock powered Euro 3.2, with only a couple small adjustments made since it was assembled, and it was on scrubs for the most part of the weekend (ikes motor is very powerful).

1) 305s fit well on 10" wheels and have for past 3 years for me.

2) I used the same 25mm spacers for 20,000 race miles on my first e30 with 10" wide wheels.... and it was only the original 4 lug setup.... NO BIG DEAL!

3) The GACGS times were not so much faster. PTG's state of the art GTR at so little weight with a tiny little driver with hundreds of laps at any given venue vs my antiquated e30 chassis, driver that makes 2 of those little pro-race fellas, likely less than 4 hours total track time at that track, and with a salvage yard S50B32 with cams/box/tuning.... I would surely hope they would spank my very best time! Millions $$$$ budget vs my $25k car.... You bet they should dominate! Yep, CM gets to increase displacement and go exotic on materials compared to PTG, but who, in their semi-right mind would spend the SERIOUS dough to go through all of the R&D to get close to what PTG could accomplish with dedicated staff putting in 40+ hours per week to tweek and extra 1/10th of a horsepower, ounce of weight savings, or .001 better drag cooefficient on their club racecar???

My point: To pretend that someone is going to produce a CM car that whips PTG times is a huge stretch. Possible? Yes, but Likely? NO WAY! Because, even if there is someone out there like a Jon Munson with the cash to go at it full bore.... they always want to make the jump to go Pro racing and the Mod goodies that were legal in club are now not legal in any Pro venue. Holder's car is going to be a total beast, and Watts as well if they invest huge dollars in another monster powerplant hoping it won't be yet another time bomb that Andy keeps telling me he's desparate to avoid, but they are still not likely to approach whipping PTG numbers due to the simple fact of testing/tuning/seat time of PTG's full time professionals doing it for a living compared to these wealthy guys' hobby. So, IMO, you are both right and wrong in comparing what a CM car is capable of to a PTG racecar. :)

How did we get this far off topic?

Can't wait to see another V8 M3 out there!!!

1. Just because you do not have problems does not mean you are using them to thier full potential.

2. GTR, PTG does not run GTR's anymore...You'd be surprised how little high end development there is for the cars. Lots if done from the factory, PTG just sets the car up, has great crew and management and good drivers, the cars are nothing that special really (not the current ones anyways). The reason you don't see that well developed of a CM car is the people who are "good" are in pro's and are not wasting time on Club cars, THATS why. The capability is there, the talent is there, its not useless for Clubracing. And I hate to use watts project as an example, but when 3 engineers get togteher on a club project, look what can be accomplished. No motor, and it still turned the fastest lap at most of the events it went to, without any real tweaking. Just arrive, drive and fix any stupid little issues that came up (like poor quality exhuast components ARGh!).

As I said, PTG has amazing management, solid engineering staff, awesome drivers, but if you compare the cars to pretty much any of the european GT programs, its like a Grand Am Cup GS car...There are rear engine tube frame E46's over there, i just wish we had the place to race such a beast over here (well prep 2 rolex, but blah).

Anyways, CLubracing is fun, and i'll hopefully always be involved because the BMWCCA ang is a great bunch and its lots of fun to know there's no real pressure, just to go out have and have fun.

I agree though, i can't wait to see more "big dog" project cars out there, THAT'S what mod class is all about.

1)
My point: To pretend that someone is going to produce a CM car that whips PTG times is a huge stretch. Possible? Yes, but Likely? NO WAY! Because, even if there is someone out there like a Jon Munson with the cash to go at it full bore.... they always want to make the jump to go Pro racing and the Mod goodies that were legal in club are now not legal in any Pro venue. Holder's car is going to be a total beast, and Watts as well if they invest huge dollars in another monster powerplant hoping it won't be yet another time bomb that Andy keeps telling me he's desparate to avoid, but they are still not likely to approach whipping PTG numbers due to the simple fact of testing/tuning/seat time of PTG's full time professionals doing it for a living compared to these wealthy guys' hobby. So, IMO, you are both right and wrong in comparing what a CM car is capable of to a PTG racecar. :)

How did we get this far off topic?

Can't wait to see another V8 M3 out there!!!

I was just kidding about the off-topic...

BTW you guys wanna see a privateer than built a car that would destroy any PTG creation... From My friends at KW germany (one of their good client owns the car...)

More like an A Mod but here you go...

If I remember well motor is a JUDD V8

http://www.bmw-syndikat.de/bmw-syndikat/download/%5Bwww-bmw-syndikat-de%5D_m3_racecar.mpeg

Yep, the good ole flossman car, Judd powered...thats OLD.

Here's a better one :) Mid engine, tube frame E46 m3.

http://gallery.underclockers.net/albums/RRT/tubeframe_e46.jpg

http://gallery.underclockers.net/albums/RRT/e46_rear_engine.jpg

http://gallery.underclockers.net/albums/RRT/belcar_e46_m3.sized.jpg

Hum, they made a BMW into a Porsche??

Hum, they made a BMW into a Porsche??

What are you talking about? :confused

Its a tube frame car...Mid engine is about the only similarity...and it has 4 wheels.

What I was getting at is that it has no similarity to an e46 at all. It looks like a body kit. It is not really a BMW is it. BMW's philosophy is front engine rear wheel drive cars. These guys did a "mid" engine car, just like a Cayman.

It's not really a bmw, in the classic sense. Perhaps a bmw drivetrain, but it's pretty much a one off tube frame race car.

I want one.

Not a One off. And there are a slew of V8 Z3 coupes to go along with it in the series, as well as ton of V8 M3's.

I was vague- what I meant is that tube frame cars are not production models. You need $$$ to get into one of those, and each one is hand made. A V8 z3 or m3 is a production chassis that has a different engine shoehorned in. They are unique, but not the one off creations that the tube frame race cars are.

Make me wish that I was better with a tig welder, I'd try my hand at making one of those. If I start now I might have a rolling chassis in a few years....

I was vague- what I meant is that tube frame cars are not production models. You need $$$ to get into one of those, and each one is hand made. A V8 z3 or m3 is a production chassis that has a different engine shoehorned in. They are unique, but not the one off creations that the tube frame race cars are.

Make me wish that I was better with a tig welder, I'd try my hand at making one of those. If I start now I might have a rolling chassis in a few years....

LOL, actually, there are production tube frame chassis that you can buy. There are ones for Rolex Prep2 class (i.e. RX8, GTO).

Who say's production models can't be hand made?

Also, the V8 Z3M3's are pretty custom over there, some fully remove the transmission tunnel and replace most of the unibody. Its amazing the money/time they can put in over there...damn them! :mad

Also, there's a lot more then just fabrication skills needed to build a tube frame ;)

I dont know if anyone said this, or if it applies to the E46, but on E36's the M chassis had more welds that on the non-M, just my .02

My non-certified welder's ass says that I can build anything with enough duct tape, a stick welder and limitless beer. :confused

I knew that you could get production tube frames for modified racing, but what I was really getting at is that even the steroid freak z3 racers are using a production car as a base, even if they are chopping the hell out of it and rebuilding it from the ground up. When I worked on a modified, we got the frame, then built an engine (next time we buy one, it was far to much of a pita) and assembled the whole thing, from the bottom up. We never started out with a working car. But looking at my post, it's all semantics really. Either way, these cars are expensive, fast, and won't fit in my garage.

Unless, of course, I have enough beer.

The 4 or 5 GTR's that BMW made originally, I think a pair went to Schnitzer and a pair to PTG originally did have wind tunnel work done I believe, and a ton of work done to get the aero right. Sure, anything can be duplicated given enough money, but those were serious body kits.

They've gone through a variety of engine swaps as well, fuel location changes and such over the years and depending on race sanctioning body.

The only photos I've seen of the FLAT CRANK V8 (not exactly an off the shelf item for Club Race people to find) also showed the engine breathing through a pair of VERY small restrictors.

Given that situation, it may very well be possible to build a regular M5 V8 engine to make more power for a club race car...but those guys also ran some very expensive and custom clutch packages and gearboxes... again, huge budget stuff. Getting that car down to their weight, and to handle as theirs did would be no small trick.

Actually, getting the car down to ther weight is easy, since they were stuck with rules for Min weight, and had a lot of extra stuff on the car a CR does not need. There are "GTR" versions of the motorsports chassis as well.

The aero looks subtle, but as Alex mentioned, there had been a lot of testing, small things here and there that most wil look over they have developed.

I am curious about the rear diffuser setup they got going on the new ALMS cars though, strange not to see a distinct diffuser tray/strakes.

Current Belcar "GTR" (m5 V8). Several of these running, and a couple V8 Z3's.
And of course there are the tubeframe mid engine ones posted before.

http://www.belcar.com/mgvd/belcar2005/foto/pg17mrt/IMG_4618.jpg


Notice PTG's has this widebody not grafted in.
http://www.lmsr.net/images/ssun13.jpg

Pretty big difference in the front bumpers actually compared to the euro m3 above.
And on this one the rears are grafted (or so it seems).

http://www.lmsr.net/images/ptg4.jpg

Pretty sure the red/black is the old one, and the white/black is the fresh built one.