Sorry its so long....

So i was going home earlier and a audi s4 pulls up next to me and first we go from a roll about 40 maybe i was in 3rd and he was in 2nd....i was on the phone so i had no time to downshift. So i just gunned it...he takes me by 2 or 3 car lenghts so i dont even try i let go.....Then we pull up to the stop light and talk...

He was a kool guy.....he said my car was his second choice and i told him that his car was my second choice as well...So then he asked if i wanted to go off of first and i agree...So light turns green i take him in first but as soon as he shifts second he gets about half a car on me...SO i let go of the gas because i didnt think i could catch up ne more.....

Then we pull up next to another red and compliment each other agian...i asked him what he had done and all he said was exhuast and chip and was putting up like 300 something in torque....but said he had low hp....So knowing me i did my research on his car to see his stats...

It said that He has a twin-turbo 6 putting up 250 hp and 250 torque...and ran 15.1 in a quarter mile....so i thought to myself. "am i not supposed to be beating him...I have intake, chip, exhuast,suspension, and a cf hood (a slight wieght reduction)???

Now my questions is???should i have gone up to maybe 100 or something or he naturally will beat me....???

http://goapr.com/Audi/products/ecu_upgrade_s4.html
the chip

this is the same situation my house mate, (2001.5 s4) and i have had many times.......... the m3 will take the s4.......... once you get up through the powerband, the m3 will take over, now, it also depends on the drivers and for confident/fast they go through the gears....... but yes, the s4 has almost 2 tons of weight, the e36 i think is 3200?

but all in all, you should've taken the s4

It said that He has a twin-turbo 6 putting up 250 hp and 250 torque...and ran 15.1 in a quarter mile....so i thought to myself. "am i not supposed to be beating him...I have intake, chip, exhuast,suspension, and a cf hood (a slight wieght reduction)???

Now my questions is???should i have gone up to maybe 100 or something or he naturally will beat me....???

do you mean he should run a 14.1 right...not 15.1

Stock for stock. the M3 will take the S4. But I would guess there are a ton out there driven by fellow 'enthusiasts' that will make mods to their S4's since it's fairly cheap and with it being turbo - excellent bang for the buck. Doesn't take a lot to make those things serious BEASTS. If only they weren't so unreliable!!!! Still I like them

Good run. And cool that you ran into another 'cool' enthusiast.

It's all good. Try to find him again.....see what happens

this is the same situation my house mate, (2001.5 s4) and i have had many times.......... the m3 will take the s4.......... once you get up through the powerband, the m3 will take over, now, it also depends on the drivers and for confident/fast they go through the gears....... but yes, the s4 has almost 2 tons of weight, the e36 i think is 3200?

but all in all, you should've taken the s4\

a 2001 B5 S4 weighs about 3,250lbs give or take a 100lbs.+, I've had an S4, its not to be taken lightly, especially a chipped one. Stock to stock, I agree with you, as soon as you row through the gears, the M3 should eventually catch up and pass (my guess would be somewhere in the middle of 3rd gear). The S4 can launch like a demon, because of that, I've had many people give up on me in just 1st gear.

stock for stock its a drivers race, but in this case the higher speed you guys went the more distance he would put on you. nice race though.

Also whoever said modding an s4 is cheap because it is a turbo car doesnt know much about them. $1500 for downpipes is not cheap at all.

Ive always thought that the s4 can always take our cars...I remember someone telling me that the s4 keep up with the e46 m3's.....So i didnt even bother trying once he got half a car length on me...But next time ill be sure to try up to 4th or 5th....

thanks for the comments..

Ive always thought that the s4 can always take our cars...I remember someone telling me that the s4 keep up with the e46 m3's.....So i didnt even bother trying once he got half a car length on me...But next time ill be sure to try up to 4th or 5th....

thanks for the comments..

i might be wrong but as far as i know even the new generation S4 cannot take an E46 M3. I dont understand why you would back down from a race after 1st gear. If your gonna race who cares if you lose just complete the race if you lose tell the guy good race and move on dont quit especally if you got an M3 :D

Thats correct, theres a TopGear video about it. the E46 is still faster than the new gen. S4...

the AWD S4 has the jump off the line which as mentioned makes it a driver's race. I think if you get a bad launch then your toast, thats if the S4 driver has a good launch :)

Thats correct, theres a TopGear video about it. the E46 is still faster than the new gen. S4...

Yep. Definitely in a straight line. On a track, it can be a different story.

The previous gen S4, referred to as B5, is a tad slower than the E36 M3, as well. Weight problems, as you'd expect from an Audi, though the torquey 2.7L biturbo V6 is really an excellent engine and helps make up for the extra weight.

I've got an APR chip and a catback in my S4, and it's hard to describe just how much the car changes with the chip. The power is just everywhere in the curve and it's much more ferocious.

If you really want to do due diligence on S4s, check out the Chipped-B5 S4 vs. Stock B6 (V8) S4 shootout on Audiworld.com. The Chipped B5 S4 is actually a tiny bit faster than the B6 S4, both manual.

Thats correct, theres a TopGear video about it. the E46 is still faster than the new gen. S4...

The only changes in the new B7 S4 were cosmetic. It's the same car as the first V8 S4 (B6).

you shouldnt have just given up like that.

you could have beaten him

That is true that the B6/B7 S4 could make a slightly quicker lap time than an E46...(with the TopGear track driver it was 1.1 seconds faster) but i personally would still favor the M3, it seems to be a little less sluggish IMO.

you shouldnt have just given up like that.

you could have beaten him

Not a chance. I chipped b5 S4 is going to beat all but f/i e36 m3s.

^^^exactly what i was going to say

the M3, it seems to be a little less sluggish IMO.

What? The V8 in the s4 has so much more low end torque than the m3. The m3 is the one you need to wind out to really get the power out of it.

Dude, you called it quits too early..

Not a chance. I chipped b5 S4 is going to beat all but f/i e36 m3s.
+3

So roughly, for those of you out there that actually own or have owned B5 S4's - how little would one have to spend to beat E36 M3's? Straight line that is. Under $1k?

What? The V8 in the s4 has so much more low end torque than the m3. The m3 is the one you need to wind out to really get the power out of it.


I think he means with the added weight and overall length of the car vs. the M3 coupe.



*BTW...is the 4-door AWD S4 really quicker than an M3 around a track? Last time I checked...almost always a RWD car setup will be favored in such a race. I can understand the STi or EVO edging out a stock M3 on a track but not a 4-door S4.

So roughly, for those of you out there that actually own or have owned B5 S4's - how little would one have to spend to beat E36 M3's? Straight line that is. Under $1k?

For sure...you can easily get a fully loaded ECU and diverter valves for a grand. My buddy ran a 13 flat with just a chip and valves running the 100 octane program. Of course...he has mad rowing skillz. Spend a little bit more on the exhaust system and there are some really great gains to be had.

I think it would take some serious modifications to get an e36 m3 to that level. Plus, the S4 is geared for some really serious top end.

I think it would take some serious modifications to get an e36 m3 to that level. Plus, the S4 is geared for some really serious top end.


So are the M3s...especially the e46s which can hit 180+ ;)

never heard of S4s doing above 165mph.

Not a chance. I chipped b5 S4 is going to beat all but f/i e36 m3s.

a cammed e36 m3 will take a chipped s4

a chip s4 is already at 318hp you add an exhuast your easy at 300rwhp

never heard of S4s doing above 165mph.

Which is why I said E36 m3. Not only that, but the b5 S4 can clear 180. A b5 with chip and full exhaust will easily walk an e46 m3. Low end, and top.

a cammed e36 m3 will take a chipped s4

You might be right, but its going to need all the supplimental mods to get there. Throw downpipes and exhaust on the S4 and thats another 40hp.

We can keep stacking this mod on top of that. I say we focus to the future. The new m3 is going to be way too much for the S4. THe M3 is going to be Rs4 league. This is going to get intersting!

I agree... and yes, I was saying that the M3's shorter body, plus the lighter over all weight would be more of what i would want on the track, not to mention a high revving engine, who wants to cruise the twisties at 5k?!;)

These arguments are silly... you're talking about a modded car. If you mod any car enough, it will be faster than another... listen to yourselves.

These arguments are silly... you're talking about a modded car. If you mod any car enough, it will be faster than another... listen to yourselves.

Because its fun!:buttrock

I'm with you mmart. For years I've been saying that the M3's real competition is the RS4, which is a real track-bred sports sedan/car. S4s are really just engine transplants from the next largest chassis with some suspension/brake tuning. Since the B5 RS4 never made it to the US, M3 owners here have no idea what it is.

I can't wait to see how the B7 RS4 and E90 m3 compare.

I can't wait to see how the B7 RS4 and E90 m3 compare.

The M3 will OWN! ;)

does anyone know what the new m3 engine will be like? what numbers will it be putting out? will it be faster than the current m3? anyone got any pics of the new e90 coupe or m3??

I hear 4L V8. Sounds absolutely tasty, at 400BHP stock.
The RS4 will be runnign a 4.2L at about 420hp, NA. Apearantly the AWD is revised to be less front biased. Its also be rethought so that they dont need to put the engine right over the front wheels. I think the next RS4 will be a totaly different animal than anything we have seen from Audi in the US for a long long time.
The M3 will be a lot like the 36's and 46's, just much much faster hehehe.
Its gonna be seriously entertaining.

schmobert, obviously you aren't a regular. These type of Audi Vs. BMW arguments happen all teh time, and they never go anywhere. It is about as pointless as the 350z vs. BMW and damnt, I can't remember what the third common argument is.


eek, it is going ot be a 400chp V8 in teh e90 m3. At first people were syaing it was going to be the e39 m5 engine, but that was false. But BMW went to the v8 so they can get back into the LMAS (I think that is the initials, maybe LAMS or some crap). But they used to put the e39 m5 or a modified v8 into the e36 m3 chasis, and spank every car in the GT class. But then rules came out saying vehicles had to have engines that were available stock to the consumers. Pretty much it had to be stock amount of cylinders. Well BMW couldn't win against Porsche GT2s with the I6 so they dropped out. Now they can reenter and mop up the competition.

how much power does a cammed, full bolt on e36 m3 put down?

how much power does a cammed, full bolt on e36 m3 put down?

When I had my 95 M3, I had every possible bolt-on mod EXCEPT cams and I was putting down 238rwhp. If I did cams, I would've expected in the vicinity of 250-255rwhp with cams and very aggressive tune.

There are quite a few guys on the board with cammed E36 M3's putting out about that much power, 250-255 at the wheels, that's about the average. Anything beyond that would require internal work, standalone etc.

The most I've heard of on an NA E36 M3 was 270, which is quite an accomplishment without a blower of some sort (be it turbo or supercharger).

. For years I've been saying that the M3's real competition is the RS4,
I can't wait to see how the B7 RS4 and E90 m3 compare.
...and the competition for the the E60 M5 will be the RS6, not the soon to be released S6.
Have read several articles discussing this philosophy from Audi.

I don't see the Audi vs. BMW thread being pointless. Seems like some good info is being respectfully exchanged here.
also:
Ungoverned E46 M3 hit 180 +??

...and the competition for the the E60 M5 will be the RS6, not the soon to be released S6.
Have read several articles discussing this philosophy from Audi.

I don't see the Audi vs. BMW thread being pointless. Seems like some good info is being respectfully exchanged here.


I agree :buttrock :buttrock

\

a 2001 B5 S4 weighs about 3,250lbs give or take a 100lbs.+, I've had an S4, its not to be taken lightly, especially a chipped one. Stock to stock, I agree with you, as soon as you row through the gears, the M3 should eventually catch up and pass (my guess would be somewhere in the middle of 3rd gear). The S4 can launch like a demon, because of that, I've had many people give up on me in just 1st gear.
3600 lbs give or take

The M3 will OWN! ;)
of course :lol

...and the competition for the the E60 M5 will be the RS6, not the soon to be released S6.
Have read several articles discussing this philosophy from Audi.

I don't see the Audi vs. BMW thread being pointless. Seems like some good info is being respectfully exchanged here.
also:
Ungoverned E46 M3 hit 180 +??

What's the RS6 going to be? Isn't the S6 already a V10, or is that just the new S8?

S4s are really just engine transplants from the next largest chassis with some suspension/brake tuning. Since the B5 RS4 never made it to the US, M3 owners here have no idea what it is.

I can't wait to see how the B7 RS4 and E90 m3 compare.

It's kind of like the US version M3 compared to the Euro version M3 (E36s of course). Damn those germans, 10 years later and I'm still bitter about my m3/supertuned 328is. haha! :buttrock

And yes, the B7RS4 vs E90M3 is going to be SUPER DELICIOUS. They really should consider these upcoming cars as semi-supercars. 400bhp? JEEEZ.

What's the RS6 going to be? Isn't the S6 already a V10, or is that just the new S8?
The upcoming S6 is a V10 rated at 420 hp, while the S8 is rated at 450 hp. The consensus seems to be the RS6 will also be sporting the V10, but over 500 hp. Nothing is "offical" yet on the RS6.

Why would you start in 3rd gear at 40 mph when you can 60 roughly in 2nd gear?

The upcoming S6 is a V10 rated at 420 hp, while the S8 is rated at 450 hp. The consensus seems to be the RS6 will also be sporting the V10, but over 500 hp. Nothing is "offical" yet on the RS6.

The new RS6 will have a 5.5L V10 making over 550hp.

That is a whole lot of engine.

Ungoverned E46 M3 hit 180 +??

Ive heard the ungoverned they can get up to 185mph stock.

there are a few people on here who have hit 175-180mph in their coupes.


the Dinan S2 kit which is adding about 30hp and changing the gears to 3.93s topped out on a track at 189mph.

...and the competition for the the E60 M5 will be the RS6, not the soon to be released S6.
Have read several articles discussing this philosophy from Audi.

I don't see the Audi vs. BMW thread being pointless. Seems like some good info is being respectfully exchanged here.
also:
Ungoverned E46 M3 hit 180 +??
x 3145123

I am having this debate in my head with the M3s sexy looks and a modded S4. So this is certainly helping...

very good thread. I personally love the B5 S4 and that car is seriously on my list of next car purchase. Spending 2k on a stock car and make over 300whp is just redicalously well priced imo. Plus, it's a great looking car, very comfortable and just well built.

My major concern though, aren't the stock turbo's kind of unreliable and what can be done to make this car last?

the biggest reliability problem with the s4 is the stock turbos can take a crap at any time. the engine bay is really cramped and some tuners crank the boost up to 20 psi so the turbos end up cooking themselves, the turbos are surrounded by engine parts so they do not cool down quickly. You can avoid this by letting the car cool down before you turn the car off but you never know if the previouse owner did this or not. And this is only an issue with the stock turbos, upgraded ones do not have this problem. Another thing is that the aftermarket on this car is just now beginning to get reall good power out of the 2.7tt motor. there are several new turbo kits that are comming out rated as high as 800hp.

the biggest reliability problem with the s4 is the stock turbos can take a crap at any time. the engine bay is really cramped and some tuners crank the boost up to 20 psi so the turbos end up cooking themselves, the turbos are surrounded by engine parts so they do not cool down quickly. You can avoid this by letting the car cool down before you turn the car off but you never know if the previouse owner did this or not. And this is only an issue with the stock turbos, upgraded ones do not have this problem. Another thing is that the aftermarket on this car is just now beginning to get reall good power out of the 2.7tt motor. there are several new turbo kits that are comming out rated as high as 800hp.

All of this is true. Anyone who chips the B5 on the K03s (stock turbos) needs bigger intercoolers. Or says the rep at Audi of NA.

All of this is true. Anyone who chips the B5 on the K03s (stock turbos) needs bigger intercoolers. Or says the rep at Audi of NA.

Negative. Stockers are fine for the k03s.

Yep. Definitely in a straight line. On a track, it can be a different story.

The previous gen S4, referred to as B5, is a tad slower than the E36 M3, as well. Weight problems, as you'd expect from an Audi, though the torquey 2.7L biturbo V6 is really an excellent engine and helps make up for the extra weight.

I've got an APR chip and a catback in my S4, and it's hard to describe just how much the car changes with the chip. The power is just everywhere in the curve and it's much more ferocious.

If you really want to do due diligence on S4s, check out the Chipped-B5 S4 vs. Stock B6 (V8) S4 shootout on Audiworld.com. The Chipped B5 S4 is actually a tiny bit faster than the B6 S4, both manual.

:werd:

The only other instance that comes to mind that is like that is a chip/catback on a big turbo diesel truck (140 hp / 300 lb tq is a good kick in the ass even in a 3 ton truck). It solidy DOUBLES the boost, Ive seen this for myself on my friend Charlie's '01 S4; APR chip and Mil-Tec catback. I can recall many races with him in my Z that he suprised me how well he kept up, that car is FAST. Off the line was a damn close run till about 80 mph, with him usually putting a car or so on me off the line. I have no doubt it would take all comers of naturally aspirated E36 M3s. As stated, on the track is another story, the M3 handles nicer if you ask me. Sportier. The S is a very comfortable car though, great daily driver. Just my .02 :D

:werd:

The only other instance that comes to mind that is like that is a chip/catback on a big turbo diesel truck (140 hp / 300 lb tq is a good kick in the ass even in a 3 ton truck). It solidy DOUBLES the boost, Ive seen this for myself on my friend Charlie's '01 S4; APR chip and Mil-Tec catback. I can recall many races with him in my Z that he suprised me how well he kept up, that car is FAST. Off the line was a damn close run till about 80 mph, with him usually putting a car or so on me off the line. I have no doubt it would take all comers of naturally aspirated E36 M3s. As stated, on the track is another story, the M3 handles nicer if you ask me. Sportier. The S is a very comfortable car though, great daily driver. Just my .02 :D

Sounds about right. And yes e36 m3 will majorly spank the b5 s4 on the track...provided there arent many long straights.

Ok, i don't really know what type of times bolt on e36 m3's run ( i'm guessing somewhere in the high 13's maybe ? ) anyway, the people i've talked to compare chipped and exhaust s4's e46 territory, not to mention some times i've seen on s4biturbo.com ( i guess you'll have to go there if your interested, i don't have the privilages to post links ) leave me to believe the s4 should have won reguardless if he finished the race (m3) or not. And shouldn't the s4 have taken the launch ?

I'm highly confused here as to how so many ppl are saying that the simple bolt on m3 could have won. I'm not trying to come across as disrespectful but am i missing something ?

Ok, i don't really know what type of times bolt on e36 m3's run ( i'm guessing somewhere in the high 13's maybe ? ) anyway, the people i've talked to compare chipped and exhaust s4's e46 territory, not to mention some times i've seen on s4biturbo.com ( i guess you'll have to go there if your interested, i don't have the privilages to post links ) leave me to believe the s4 should have won reguardless if he finished the race (m3) or not. And shouldn't the s4 have taken the launch ?

I'm highly confused here as to how so many ppl are saying that the simple bolt on m3 could have won. I'm not trying to come across as disrespectful but am i missing something ?

It cant win. I myself am F/I and was handed by a chipped and full exhaust b5 s4. Granted I had 2 other passengers he still pulled a good 2-3 cl's on me at 120 and was still pulling.

Ok good, because for a second i thought i was buggin out. lol

very good thread. I personally love the B5 S4 and that car is seriously on my list of next car purchase. Spending 2k on a stock car and make over 300whp is just redicalously well priced imo. Plus, it's a great looking car, very comfortable and just well built.


+1

the B5 S4 would be my next car :buttrock

Ok, i don't really know what type of times bolt on e36 m3's run ( i'm guessing somewhere in the high 13's maybe ? ) anyway, the people i've talked to compare chipped and exhaust s4's e46 territory, not to mention some times i've seen on s4biturbo.com ( i guess you'll have to go there if your interested, i don't have the privilages to post links ) leave me to believe the s4 should have won reguardless if he finished the race (m3) or not. And shouldn't the s4 have taken the launch ?

I'm highly confused here as to how so many ppl are saying that the simple bolt on m3 could have won. I'm not trying to come across as disrespectful but am i missing something ?

You are correct, the M3 never stood a chance no matter how fast they got going. If anything it would have gotten worse the higher up they went. Chipped and cat-back S4 with a good driver/conditions is a low 13 sec car, probably trapping ~105-106. Very much E46 M3 territory.

not to add to the fire but having tracked a modded s4 and eaten many e36 drivers (also been eaten by an e30 m3) it is all about the driver. The s4 is VERY capable on the track huge torque lets you just rip out of corners. I personally saw 165 on my speedo and was getting passed by another s4 on the way to pocono race track.

mod the suspension in the s4 and it is in the same league as a modded m3, the 2001 autox leaders were an e36 and an s4.

Swap turbos in the s4 and my car is gonna be ducking for cover.

not to add to the fire but having tracked a modded s4 and eaten many e36 drivers (also been eaten by an e30 m3) it is all about the driver. The s4 is VERY capable on the track huge torque lets you just rip out of corners. I personally saw 165 on my speedo and was getting passed by another s4 on the way to pocono race track.

mod the suspension in the s4 and it is in the same league as a modded m3, the 2001 autox leaders were an e36 and an s4.

Swap turbos in the s4 and my car is gonna be ducking for cover.

No way. Handling unquestionably goes to the e36 m3. Power as a constant, the BMW is going to win.

i always hear the the m3 has better suspension stock because it is stiffer but once you put aftermarket suspension on bothh cars they are very competitive.

i got out of a 2001 Audi to my 99 M3. On S4biturbo.com i am (was) the fastest stage 2+ S4 at 12.6 at the track (zoltan). I had chip, exhaust, DPs... I gave up my S4 at 50104 miles as that is when the warranty ran out. Clutch jobs at $3k and what not were not up my alley. My S4 was quick, but still a PIG! DAmn that thing is heavy. I love my M3 and how nible it is and quick etc... Unfortuanetly previously having an S4 is gonna make me plunge into FI on my BMW. I loved the quattro but snagging a corner in a rwd car is way to sweet! Anyway, the race could have been close. Audi uses a HEAVY flywheel on there to get that pig to move, and if you don't hit those RPMs right you arent going anywhere, and i mean lik 5k or so. So if he didn't get the S4 reved up he may have lost his launch advantage and then you are transfering less power with less loss, and the S4 is transfering more power to more drivetrain loss and more weight... if its not raining a bolt on M3 has a chance, a GOOD chance if the audi driver doesn't know how to handle that car. Also, some of those chips the for the S4 are very conservative and wont net as much gains as others.

I'm with you mmart. For years I've been saying that the M3's real competition is the RS4, which is a real track-bred sports sedan/car. S4s are really just engine transplants from the next largest chassis with some suspension/brake tuning. Since the B5 RS4 never made it to the US, M3 owners here have no idea what it is.

I can't wait to see how the B7 RS4 and E90 m3 compare.
I know a guy who has an RS4 - two of the actually. He has 2 of the only 12 in the country - and he has 1 or the only 2 that are federalized to drive legally on US Soil. Josk Decker, owner of Achtuning.

www.achtuning.com

He also has a Stage VI B5 S4 - over 800hp - 650+ whp. :thumbup:

I agree - even with a 93 octane APR chip at 318hp, you are only putting down about 220 whp with that insane Quattro drivetrain loss. He had a cat back too... so let's say he had about 330hp - maybe 240whp. Plus you have the extra weight to consider - curb weight of an 01 S4 is 3813lbs (1730kg); a 99 M3 only weighs 3176 (1440kg) - that's a monster difference of 650lbs! So at a normal stock whp of 205 for the M3, the weight/power ratio is 15.5 - for the S4? 16.6 at BEST... So yeah, an S4 may get you on the launch, but once you get your car into the powerband and keep it there the race was yours, MANG. Add some nice aggressive cams, exhaust, and a chip and I'd say you'd WALK a B5 S4 up to 100mph..

Im not gonna argue the power figures you laid down there, or the weight figures since I don't know and Im not gonna take the time to look it all up. BUT.... in the real world, a chipped/cat-back S4 will take a stock to modded NA (not FI) E36 M3 in any manner of strait line competition, be it from a dig or a 60-80 mph roll on. Ive raced both on many occasions in the past, and the lightly modded S4 is a much faster car, no doubt. :cool

I agree - even with a 93 octane APR chip at 318hp, you are only putting down about 220 whp with that insane Quattro drivetrain loss. He had a cat back too... so let's say he had about 330hp - maybe 240whp. Plus you have the extra weight to consider - curb weight of an 01 S4 is 3813lbs (1730kg); a 99 M3 only weighs 3176 (1440kg) - that's a monster difference of 650lbs! So at a normal stock whp of 205 for the M3, the weight/power ratio is 15.5 - for the S4? 16.6 at BEST... So yeah, an S4 may get you on the launch, but once you get your car into the powerband and keep it there the race was yours, MANG. Add some nice aggressive cams, exhaust, and a chip and I'd say you'd WALK a B5 S4 up to 100mph..

Ever heard of torque? Trust me, its still bread no matter how you slice it. The b5 s4 with the chip/exhaust is going to walk the E36 m3, no questions asked.

Ever heard of torque? Trust me, its still bread no matter how you slice it. The b5 s4 with the chip/exhaust is going to walk the E36 m3, no questions asked.

I will have to agree with this statement. I've ran an auto '02 B5 S4 chipped with full exhaust and he did pretty well against me...see thread

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358597

Ever heard of torque? Trust me, its still bread no matter how you slice it. The b5 s4 with the chip/exhaust is going to walk the E36 m3, no questions asked.
Your obviously an Audi owner! I talked alot about tourque when i had my S4 too. You guys can argue this all day long, but herre are the real facts:
unsrpung weight
curb weight
HP/Tq
aerodynamics and
DRIVER
play a part in all of this. If you say 'I lost to one they can beat us!' that means shit cause for all i know your a shitty driver, no matter how good you actually THINK you are! also note that on top of weight you have aerodymacis and all kinds of other shit.
A Deisel truck can have 1100 pounds of tourque, but guess what - i beat him in my M3 too! So lets leave it at this, Both are formitable cars on street and track, and instead of arguing whos faster, look for them to race as you know it should be a good match!

chip and exhaust b5 s4's are capable of running +-13.00 1/4 at 104-106, a na e36 m3 is not going to touch that, unless its FULLY modded, forget the hp numbers look at the real world times, neilm3 has a aa sc and he is trapping at 105, a stage 2 b5 s4 is comparable to an e46 m3, not an e36

chip and exhaust b5 s4's are capable of running +-13.00 1/4 at 104-106, a na e36 m3 is not going to touch that, unless its FULLY modded, forget the hp numbers look at the real world times, neilm3 has a aa sc and he is trapping at 105, a stage 2 b5 s4 is comparable to an e46 m3, not an e36
acordding to S4biturbo.com the only people running the #s you are talking about AT least have downpipes if not 100octane, race tires, less interior, etc....
Also, note that in comparing dragstrip #s you are not comparing anything in the real world, because in the real world noone goes to the burn out box and then goes for a rev matched launch and race a full 1/4 mile. NOT to mention its really who crosses the line first NOT who has the best time!

Im not gonna argue the power figures you laid down there, or the weight figures since I don't know and Im not gonna take the time to look it all up. BUT.... in the real world, a chipped/cat-back S4 will take a stock to modded NA (not FI) E36 M3 in any manner of strait line competition, be it from a dig or a 60-80 mph roll on. Ive raced both on many occasions in the past, and the lightly modded S4 is a much faster car, no doubt. :cool


Ever heard of torque? Trust me, its still bread no matter how you slice it. The b5 s4 with the chip/exhaust is going to walk the E36 m3, no questions asked.


You guys are both right. My apologies. For some reason when I saw the power figure of 318hp I was thinking that was chp, not whp. My figures are off and the Audi would actually have a power/weight ratio of about 12.0, much faster than a stock M3. Even a modded M3 would proabably not be able to keep up (would have to be modded NA to about 310chp/265whp, almost as fast as an S50B32 Euro M3).

Now in the twisties... that be another matter - stock for stock suspension the M3 would probably have it.

You guys don't have to argue torque either... my previous car was a B5.5 Passat (2002) with a Revo SPS2 upgrade. Torque is nice, but my BMW now plows the the powerband faster and soon it'll be just as fast on top - however it handles WAY better than my Passat ever did and I love RWD compared to FWD.

Your obviously an Audi owner! I talked alot about tourque when i had my S4 too. You guys can argue this all day long, but herre are the real facts:
unsrpung weight
curb weight
HP/Tq
aerodynamics and
DRIVER
play a part in all of this. If you say 'I lost to one they can beat us!' that means shit cause for all i know your a shitty driver, no matter how good you actually THINK you are! also note that on top of weight you have aerodymacis and all kinds of other shit.
A Deisel truck can have 1100 pounds of tourque, but guess what - i beat him in my M3 too! So lets leave it at this, Both are formitable cars on street and track, and instead of arguing whos faster, look for them to race as you know it should be a good match!
Here here!! +1

You guys are both right. My apologies. For some reason when I saw the power figure of 318hp I was thinking that was chp, not whp. My figures are off and the Audi would actually have a power/weight ratio of about 12.0, much faster than a stock M3. Even a modded M3 would proabably not be able to keep up (would have to be modded NA to about 310chp/265whp, almost as fast as an S50B32 Euro M3).


No, you are correct. Those are CHP not WHP.

No, you are correct. Those are CHP not WHP.
On the APR site however, it shows a dyno graph with whp numbers being close to 330 with their Stage II set-up (basically their Stage II software and a cat-back).

So they p-chop the graph so that it shows chp numbers? :dunno :help

Your obviously an Audi owner! I talked alot about tourque when i had my S4 too. You guys can argue this all day long, but herre are the real facts:
unsrpung weight
curb weight
HP/Tq
aerodynamics and
DRIVER
play a part in all of this. If you say 'I lost to one they can beat us!' that means shit cause for all i know your a shitty driver, no matter how good you actually THINK you are! also note that on top of weight you have aerodymacis and all kinds of other shit.
A Deisel truck can have 1100 pounds of tourque, but guess what - i beat him in my M3 too! So lets leave it at this, Both are formitable cars on street and track, and instead of arguing whos faster, look for them to race as you know it should be a good match!

Ok - I have an E46 m3 SMG competition. It is neck and neck with my buddys Stage 2 (aka chip/exhaust) B5 S4. So, if you are telling me the E36 is faster then the E46, then thats just dandy and you are flat out wrong.

Furthermore, stage 2 S4s usually put down ~270whp and ~350 foot lbs of torque (At the wheels). It is clear it will take f/i to get an E36 m3 anywhere near this sort of power level.

I dont know exactly what you are referencing with "on top of weight you have aerodymacis and all kinds of other shit". Yeah, the S4 weighs more, but several factors help it overcome its piggy-ness. First, where weight matters most is from a dig. Quattro will take care of things in this regard. And from a roll, weight is far less important. You are correct that aerodynamics "and shit" play a slightly more important role as the speed increases, but the fact is the S4 makes WAYYYYYY more power will continue to propel it to victory. If you have taken any sort of physics classes, you'd might have a slight understanding of what I'm referencing.

Also, if you want to take driver into account...it is far easier to get a nice launch out of the audi. 4wd makes things fairly mindless...and, based on your verbage, something tells me I have far more track time then you....

Ok - I have an E46 m3 SMG competition. It is neck and neck with my buddys Stage 2 (aka chip/exhaust) B5 S4. So, if you are telling me the E36 is faster then the E46, then thats just dandy and you are flat out wrong.

Furthermore, stage 2 S4s usually put down ~270whp and ~350 foot lbs of torque (At the wheels). It is clear it will take f/i to get an E36 m3 anywhere near this sort of power level.

I dont know exactly what you are referencing with "on top of weight you have aerodymacis and all kinds of other shit". Yeah, the S4 weighs more, but several factors help it overcome its piggy-ness. First, where weight matters most is from a dig. Quattro will take care of things in this regard. And from a roll, weight is far less important. You are correct that aerodynamics "and shit" play a slightly more important role as the speed increases, but the fact is the S4 makes WAYYYYYY more power will continue to propel it to victory. If you have taken any sort of physics classes, you'd might have a slight understanding of what I'm referencing.

Also, if you want to take driver into account...it is far easier to get a nice launch out of the audi. 4wd makes things fairly mindless...and, based on your verbage, something tells me I have far more track time then you....
Don't forget that both the S4 and the M3 have a coefficient of drag of .31 - the both have the same wind resistance (or at least the difference is negligible - manufacturers don't publish those figures to the thousandth...:rolleyes), so aerodynamics don't even come in to play...

Don't forget that both the S4 and the M3 have a coefficient of drag of .31 - the both have the same wind resistance (or at least the difference is negligible - manufacturers don't publish those figures to the thousandth...:rolleyes), so aerodynamics don't even come in to play...

And there we go. :cool I was taking his word for it.

I don't understand why the debate is going into so much depth. It's clear that the lighty modded s4 has times comparable to e46 m3's. So if anyone says that an e36 m3 with some bolt ons can match/beat an e46 m3 i'm drooling over the wrong car. Not trying to offend anyone but, I think some of the ppl here are on the e36 high horse and are just being ignorant to obvious truth.

With proper mods, yes the e36 can do a run with the s4 and win. Did that happen this race ? NO.

I raced a s4 from a drag 0-125mph... he took me in 1/4 mile (launched the crap outta me)... I passed him about mid 3rd and finsihed about 2 car lengths ahead... Heres the vid... haha cant really tell but im in the left lane
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=CE454070-7E4A-4219-A836-5A77D63729E7&kw=13&p=0

I raced a s4 from a drag 0-125mph... he took me in 1/4 mile (launched the crap outta me)... I passed him about mid 3rd and finsihed about 2 car lengths ahead... Heres the vid... haha cant really tell but im in the left lane
http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=CE454070-7E4A-4219-A836-5A77D63729E7&kw=13&p=0

Perhaps the worst video I've ever seen. Not to make excuses, but that is an automatic s4...and likely wasnt modified.

I don't understand why the debate is going into so much depth. It's clear that the lighty modded s4 has times comparable to e46 m3's. So if anyone says that an e36 m3 with some bolt ons can match/beat an e46 m3 i'm drooling over the wrong car. Not trying to offend anyone but, I think some of the ppl here are on the e36 high horse and are just being ignorant to obvious truth.

With proper mods, yes the e36 can do a run with the s4 and win. Did that happen this race ? NO.

Sleeper you bring up an interesting point Ive seen pointed out several times in past threads:

Nearly all of the BMW elitists on this site drive 6-12 yr old E36 M3s!! Don't get me wrong, I love the model and would love own one. But at the same time, getting on here and beating your chest in superiority over all when you're driving, at best, a $23000 car, its kind of silly. You don't see guys on here with 760iL and E46 M3 CSLs waxing about how bad-ass their car is compared to "X" other car. Anyhow, off topic, but I had to mention it. :cool

Indeed Phanta-z. I mean, i love alot of bmw's and i wish i had about 6 of them ( starting from an e30 m3 ) but i know the limitations of the car and am fine with that. To me, that's what's being an enthusiast is all about. I respect cars for what they can do and not because it's xxx brand name. I love the e36 m3 i'd even get one over the s4 if they weren't so much out of my price range, but that doesn't mean i think it can match up with everything out there. The k03's are not in the greatly reliable portion of the car spectrum. I'd probably get an s4 for a project car or something like 11secs4, that guys car rips :buttrock

Anyway, we all love bmw's here but lets not get out of control of their capabilities. :alright

Perhaps the worst video I've ever seen. Not to make excuses, but that is an automatic s4...and likely wasnt modified.h

haha yeah but it has turbo back exhaust

I don't understand why the debate is going into so much depth. It's clear that the lighty modded s4 has times comparable to e46 m3's. So if anyone says that an e36 m3 with some bolt ons can match/beat an e46 m3 i'm drooling over the wrong car. Not trying to offend anyone but, I think some of the ppl here are on the e36 high horse and are just being ignorant to obvious truth.

With proper mods, yes the e36 can do a run with the s4 and win. Did that happen this race ? NO.
You may be drooling over the wrong car. E46 is much heavier than the E36 as well. Since the E36 is getting much cheaper to mod and turbo/Fi for that matter, with the savings of the E36 over the E46 you may want to reconsider your choices?

I don't understand why the debate is going into so much depth. It's clear that the lighty modded s4 has times comparable to e46 m3's. So if anyone says that an e36 m3 with some bolt ons can match/beat an e46 m3 i'm drooling over the wrong car. Not trying to offend anyone but, I think some of the ppl here are on the e36 high horse and are just being ignorant to obvious truth.

With proper mods, yes the e36 can do a run with the s4 and win. Did that happen this race ? NO.

Your not drooling over the wrong car....all the bolt-ons in the world aren't gonna get an S52 E36 car into the class of an S54 E46 car. To be honest, Ive never been impressed with ANY level of naturally aspirated mods for the S52 motor, especially for the $$$$$. In the past I raced several full bolt on cars, and one FULLY modded S52 E36 M3 (head work, agressive cams, upped compression, FULL bolt on, etc etc) and all of those failed to impress me. Now, FI is another story entirely. I get suprised all the time by the incredible level of power these motors can make with some boost in their lungs. Anyhow, just my observation. :D

You may be drooling over the wrong car. E46 is much heavier than the E36 as well. Since the E36 is getting much cheaper to mod and turbo/Fi for that matter, with the savings of the E36 over the E46 you may want to reconsider your choices?

My drool is purely asthetically based when it comes to the e46. I was just comparing the limited mod factor of one car to anothers out of the box performance. I just like the total package of the e46 m3. It's a great " total package " car. Looks, speed, handling, it's what alot of people benchmark their cars status to. That's why i drool lol.

If i wanted to think about FI i'd surely pick a different car (if staying bmw it would probably be an e30 or e36). Mostly because to me their's nothing impressive about a 500whp car running 12's.

Edit: Lol, and the way my bank account looks...my choices have been reconsidered a LONG time ago lol. I'd be lucky to get a 318 right now.

Your not drooling over the wrong car....all the bolt-ons in the world aren't gonna get an S52 E36 car into the class of an S54 E46 car. To be honest, Ive never been impressed with ANY level of naturally aspirated mods for the S52 motor, especially for the $$$$$. In the past I raced several full bolt on cars, and one FULLY modded S52 E36 M3 (head work, agressive cams, upped compression, FULL bolt on, etc etc) and all of those failed to impress me. Now, FI is another story entirely. I get suprised all the time by the incredible level of power these motors can make with some boost in their lungs. Anyhow, just my observation. :D

i disagree. an e46 m3 puts down around 270-280rwhp stock. a modded e36 m3 (cams included) puts down around 250-260rwhp. if you consider that the e46 m3 is ~300lbs heavier and for every 100lbs you lose a tenth in the 1/4 mile (generally accepted rule) it would totally be a driver's race.

the e46 m3 does mid-high 13s in the quarter mile stock. the e36 m3 does 14 stock. add about 40-50rwhp to the wheels and i don't see how you can argue that it would not be close.

Ok - I have an E46 m3 SMG competition. It is neck and neck with my buddys Stage 2 (aka chip/exhaust) B5 S4. So, if you are telling me the E36 is faster then the E46, then thats just dandy and you are flat out wrong.

Furthermore, stage 2 S4s usually put down ~270whp and ~350 foot lbs of torque (At the wheels). It is clear it will take f/i to get an E36 m3 anywhere near this sort of power level.

I dont know exactly what you are referencing with "on top of weight you have aerodymacis and all kinds of other shit". Yeah, the S4 weighs more, but several factors help it overcome its piggy-ness. First, where weight matters most is from a dig. Quattro will take care of things in this regard. And from a roll, weight is far less important. You are correct that aerodynamics "and shit" play a slightly more important role as the speed increases, but the fact is the S4 makes WAYYYYYY more power will continue to propel it to victory. If you have taken any sort of physics classes, you'd might have a slight understanding of what I'm referencing.

Also, if you want to take driver into account...it is far easier to get a nice launch out of the audi. 4wd makes things fairly mindless...and, based on your verbage, something tells me I have far more track time then you....


if you've got an smg, you're probably running around 5.2 0-60 (that's what i have seen numerous times as being the realistic 0-60), i am currently running 5.3 with just basic bolt-ons (no cams).

BUT, the most important thing to remember is that the driver is the weakest link. The guy who posted the thread originally said that he took the s4 from a launch, can anybody tell me how the hell that happened?! yes, that's right, it SHOULDN'T have. from that statement alone i can say that the e36 m3 had a pretty good fighting chance against it merely because the driver of the s4 sucked and probably lost 3-5 tenths just on the launch.

i have seen some crazy things happen on the streets with drag racing. for example i have seen a video of a friend of mine's 350Z with only headers/CAI taking a 6spd e46 M3s by a car. but, he is a VERY good driver and knows his car very well. all goes to show you that ANYTHING can happen on the street.

of course this post will probably just get lost in the abyss of these never-ending pissing matches that occur every week.

My drool is purely asthetically based when it comes to the e46. I was just comparing the limited mod factor of one car to anothers out of the box performance. I just like the total package of the e46 m3. It's a great " total package " car. Looks, speed, handling, it's what alot of people benchmark their cars status to. That's why i drool lol.

If i wanted to think about FI i'd surely pick a different car (if staying bmw it would probably be an e30 or e36). Mostly because to me their's nothing impressive about a 500whp car running 12's.

Edit: Lol, and the way my bank account looks...my choices have been reconsidered a LONG time ago lol. I'd be lucky to get a 318 right now.

Yeah, but a 12.0 @ 138 mph IS impressive to me. That just tells me the car is not set up for 1/4 mi. but it has some SERIOUS power. Would make for a wicked roll-on car, something I enjoy. I don't mind that a bit. Thats all just personal preferance stuff though. :D

Yeah, but a 12.0 @ 138 mph IS impressive to me. That just tells me the car is not set up for 1/4 mi. but it has some SERIOUS power. Would make for a wicked roll-on car, something I enjoy. I don't mind that a bit. Thats all just personal preferance stuff though. :D

Are you speaking of jmweb ? I haven't looked for jmwebs times for sometime and i don't think i checked his mph (i didn't get a chance to really check the time slip, just saw the " 12 second " thing), i accept my correction if that's who you were referring to because that's who i was. Running 138 mph IS very impressive to me..especially on stock internals. I just checked e46psi and i see he broke 11's @125. It doesn't say if he was spraying or what shot if he was, but doing those numbers on dr's is good enough for me :buttrock lol.

Bet that stage 3 kit will be " first born " type of price when it comes out.

Are you speaking of jmweb ? I haven't looked for jmwebs times for sometime and i don't think i checked his mph (i didn't get a chance to really check the time slip, just saw the " 12 second " thing), i accept my correction if that's who you were referring to because that's who i was. Running 138 mph IS very impressive to me..especially on stock internals. I just checked e46psi and i see he broke 11's @125. It doesn't say if he was spraying or what shot if he was, but doing those numbers on dr's is good enough for me :buttrock lol.

Bet that stage 3 kit will be " first born " type of price when it comes out.

Oh no I wasn't quoting anybody inparticular's time slip, although I have seen quite a few cars run very similar times to what I mentioned. All I meant was that when you have a car with a tight, stiff GT or road course-type suspension, as in, something that is designed for curves and high-speed touring, that is nearly the exact opposite of what you would want in a car designed to weight transfer and get off the start line as fast as possible.

So anyhow, when I see a car with 18 or 19" wheels wrapped in the latest 30-series rubber, low-sprung susupension and monster brakes line up at the track, and proceed to bang out a 12.nothin' et with a 2.nothin' short time, but his traps come back anywhere from the mid-120's on up, I know that car makes serious power. Its just out of its element. :cool