I currently have double adj. external reservoir JRZs and would love to keep them, but the rules have changed for JP and I need something more simplistic. I've heard good things about Ohlins and would like to find out more. Questions - Why do you like/dislike them and where did you buy them?

Ryan

Contact RRT. Also, Search this forum, lots has been discussed. Jared Sedacca uses Single Adj RRT Ohlins in CM and has been very successful.

WONG(er) uses RRT ohlins in his Prepared car.

Watts uses DA ohlins on his CM car which has done extremely well this year in its first season from its "rebirth."

You will need to get a set custom tailored for your application regardless.

Whats your budget?

Also note, JRZ does have a new "clubsport" shock that does not have a reservoir, however its over $3k.

I currently have double adj. external reservoir JRZs and would love to keep them, but the rules have changed for JP and I need something more simplistic. I've heard good things about Ohlins and would like to find out more. Questions - Why do you like/dislike them and where did you buy them?

Ryan

hey stranger, nice to see you on the boards :wavey

Contact RRT. Also, Search this forum, lots has been discussed. Jared Sedacca uses Single Adj RRT Ohlins in CM and has been very successful.

WONG(er) uses RRT ohlins in his Prepared car.

Watts uses DA ohlins on his CM car which has done extremely well this year in its first season from its "rebirth."

You will need to get a set custom tailored for your application regardless.

Whats your budget?


Speaking of budgets, how much is a setup with single adj. for prepared like the Wong(er)s?

And what camber plates do you need to use, I hope not GC.

-Carlos.

Price depends on your application and options. Email RRT for information. www.roadracetech.com

I passed right over this thread and never even looked at it. Anyway, as Steve mentioned I run the Ohlins SA from RRT which are a bit modified for C-Mod. The main thing is I run rear c/os. Overall, I couldnt be happier. The service, expertise and match of springs to the valving were pretty much dead on the first time. I believe RRT will use any camber plate the customer has. In my case, I had GCs so they used them. I dont see anything terribly wrong with them. They are holding up fine so far. I think Watts' car doesnt even have camber plates but could be wrong. Eitherway, your best bet is to contact RRT personally and have them set you up with a package. You will not be dissapointed.

Watt's car has Ohlins Camber Plates, but they were there just for testing (imagine it did that well without even playing with camber adj haha).

Also, Jon holder's car from Evosport has Ohlins DA from RRT as well, C/o rear.

Wonger here... the Ohlins work very well... custom valved and matched springs. The RRT guys were great in getting everything setup and completed from beginning to end.

The thing I like about them is I dont have to waste time messing with the adjustments.... might have been me, but the ADs I had could never be adjusted the way I liked.

I only did 2 races last year... and finished midpack in one event and dead last in another, so if you want glowing testimonial from a race proven winner... well: :embarrasm

.

The thing I like about them is I dont have to waste time messing with the adjustments.... might have been me, but the ADs I had could never be adjusted the way I liked.



waste time with adjustments? Should have just bought grp N. bilsteins then.

waste time with adjustments? Should have just bought grp N. bilsteins then.

Dunno about you.. but I could never get the rebound right on those things... plus there werent very many settings.... could have been other factors as well... but to me.. it seems easier to turn one knob and get the setting you desire instead of playing w/ 2 settings and having to dial in for both.

waste time with adjustments? Should have just bought grp N. bilsteins then.

Custom valving work isn't as easy to get with those.

waste time with adjustments? Should have just bought grp N. bilsteins then.

:rolleyes

There's a difference between getting your shocks to work on the car, and getting them compliant before they are even installed.

:rolleyes

There's a difference between getting your shocks to work on the car, and getting them compliant before they are even installed.


I am well aware of the difference Steve.

Ohlins are great shocks, and i'm sure RRT makes are great setup using them. i'll leave it at that. :rolleyes

Actually the teams I'm looking to for Ohlins technology are not in sedan racing, so RRT has nothing to do with it.

That statement was implied without care of the shocks, it was a general comment. Can be applied to Moton, JRZ, DynamicSusp, whomever.

Contact RRT. Also, Search this forum, lots has been discussed. Jared Sedacca uses Single Adj RRT Ohlins in CM and has been very successful.

WONG(er) uses RRT ohlins in his Prepared car.

Watts uses DA ohlins on his CM car which has done extremely well this year in its first season from its "rebirth."

You will need to get a set custom tailored for your application regardless.

Whats your budget?

Also note, JRZ does have a new "clubsport" shock that does not have a reservoir, however its over $3k.

My budget is around $2,500. I'm planing to sell my JRZs to help fund the new purchase.

I assume this is for the 328is JP car?

If you are looking to go Ohlins - Rear is simple, just bolt on off the shelf dampers. Fronts however require some custom work, and I don't think $2500 will cover it.

You should contact RRT for specific price quote and availability though.

Only other higher end non external reservoir is JRZ's new unit, and its over $3k...and if you are spending that money, might as well get the Ohlins.

Protrac has a single adjustable shock, but i'm not sure of its availability for this application.

I like my Ohlins, although they are double adjustable, remote reservoir and true coilover in the rear, so I think they are a bit different that what the poster desires.

RRT did a great job and I like the granularity of the adjustments for rebound and bump.

I like my Ohlins, although they are double adjustable, remote reservoir and true coilover in the rear, so I think they are a bit different that what the poster desires.

RRT did a great job and I like the granularity of the adjustments for rebound and bump.

Could not think of a better word to use than granularity? haha :stickoutt

Öhlins is Swedish and I'am in Sweden, and Öhlins is about 35 kilometers from home, so throw me a PM on what youre intrested in, and I'll se what I can do.

They won't be able to do much in Sweden actually, a lot of it is done here in USA.

Unless you ransack the place, and if thats the case, i'll take some e46 m3 da :)

I passed right over this thread and never even looked at it. Anyway, as Steve mentioned I run the Ohlins SA from RRT which are a bit modified for C-Mod. The main thing is I run rear c/os. Overall, I couldnt be happier. The service, expertise and match of springs to the valving were pretty much dead on the first time. I believe RRT will use any camber plate the customer has. In my case, I had GCs so they used them. I dont see anything terribly wrong with them. They are holding up fine so far. I think Watts' car doesnt even have camber plates but could be wrong. Eitherway, your best bet is to contact RRT personally and have them set you up with a package. You will not be dissapointed.

Which Ohlins shocks do you have? Are these the Road&Track single-adjustable (compression+rebound adjusted together) shocks with additional M3 sway bar link?

I have these: Road&Track BMS7A00, BMS8A00. They look like the ones on the RRT web site, but they are for (non-M3) E36.

RRT custom built the kit. Jared also has the STJ rear shocks. Its more race application than the street kits (made in japan).

not me lol just trying to get some posts

Ohlins dampers are not pre-built as a "catch-all". The only ones that come assembled are the "Sportlines" which are Swedish parts assembled in Japan (not China). Even so, we do not use the off-the-shelf Sportlines in just about any application. My car has E36 Sportlines custom-valved to our specs to match H&R Sport springs. We've done all of the suspension geometry analysis to determine everything from the basic motion ratio up to kinematic relationships, and have custom proprietary algorithms developed to match spring rates, vehicle weight, and damper rates so you get a shock that comes ready to race with settings dead in the middle, with extensive skidpad, road, and track testing to back it up.

The remote-reservior front E36 and E46 HMRC struts must be assembled with pistons and valve setups custom to your application. The rear dampers, whether remote reservior or single-adjustable, also come as a kit from Ohlins Sweden. Even if you get the parts, you'd have to assemble them with a custom shim, piston, and bleed valve setup. Ohlins has an E36 and E46 "Touring" setup that comes valved, but we don't use it, either.

The front struts are the inverted style that eliminates side-loads in the shaft up front, like a Bilstein. We're also working to use a special-application front strut for street and BMW CCA Stock and Prepared classes with a 44mm diameter instead of the typical 40mm body. Larger body means even greater sensitivity and more side-loading capacity with less "stiction". The rear dampers we use are chosen from the large selction of standard dampers that Ohlins has. The single adjustable STJ and lower-cost steel body CCJ are for stock and prepared classes, while the remote-canister LMJ double-adjustable fits the bill for both coilover and standard rear applications. If you want to get crazy, the TTX46 through-rod damper has a direct bolt-on application for the E90/92. 4-way adjustable without remote reservior, it's basically the main competitor to the Sachs dampers used by BMW and Team PTG in years past.

The benefits to the Ohlins are more on the lines of sensitivity, resolution in adjustments, custom setups, R&D at Ohlins Sweden, and above all, unequalled racing support here in the US, in North Carolina. One last thing is the nitrogen port. Instead of a Schraeder valve, Ohlins uses a thick rubber plug sealed with an o-ring and screw. To check the nitrogen, you remove the screw and pierce the rubber with an hypodermic needle, about 22-24ga, very tiny. The gauge, hose, and needle volume are all extremely small, so you don't change your pressures by repeated pressure checks. The rubber plug lasts literally thousands of piercings, and is replaced whenever the damper is sent in for fluid service. It also never leaks, so there is no need to be paranoid about checking damper pressures before your weekend. After literally 50-60 hours on track last year, the front and rear dampers in the Watts' car still have the same pressures with which they were built.

Other brands are still good shocks, but we went with Ohlins due to the amount of support, R&D, and knowledge backing up the product.

The TTX46McPh also has an E46 bolt on application...awesome setup.

HUGE pic http://www.ohlins.com/Portals/0/ttx-mcp_front_03.jpg

I think some of the sportlines might be made in Sweden too, but they are definitely developed in Sweden.

I'm going with the LMJ DA rears and HMRC DA fronts (tophosemount) for my e46 project, and going with ST44's for another project :)

STJ/LMJ has some nice features, like the ABS sleeve to protect the shock body from being worn by the spacer/springs.

I'll be using RRT for the damper setup (bmw and non bmw application).

Öhlins has also been chosen to be the single supplier of spec dampers for the ChampCar series.

Which Ohlins shocks do you have? Are these the Road&Track single-adjustable (compression+rebound adjusted together) shocks with additional M3 sway bar link?

I have these: Road&Track BMS7A00, BMS8A00. They look like the ones on the RRT web site, but they are for (non-M3) E36.
Jared has the E36 front Sportlines modified for coilover (not easy) and STJ SA rears. Ohlins Japan has refused to make M3 applications, so we've had to work around that.

James, I'm pretty sure I still have some high res pics of the setup from when we assembled and installed them if you want them to show.

I had the double adjustable RRT Spec'd Ohlins in my widebody E36. They were GREAT! Now Bob Otoupalik will be enjoying them.

If my new car didn't already come with Moton Motorsport WCGT Trips, I would have Ohlins again in a heartbeat! I may still have them if I don't like the Motons.

I doubt you "won't like" the motons...but will you like them 'as much' as the ohlines, thats the question :)

Just wondering. Do you consider the ohlins with high and low speed compression adjustment a 2 way or 3 way damper?

What do you mean?

It adjusts in 3 different ways, so I think its safe to say its 3way adj.

Same way the 4way is titled/described.

Why would you not consider it 2/3/4 way?

We've done all of the suspension geometry analysis to determine everything from the basic motion ratio up to kinematic relationships, and have custom proprietary algorithms developed to match spring rates, vehicle weight, and damper rates so you get a shock that comes ready to race with settings dead in the middle, with extensive skidpad, road, and track testing to back it up.

The question is, do you have all this data for the E30 M3?

Mike

The question is, do you have all this data for the E30 M3?

E30's are the first love of Barry, James, and Adam. Their J-Prep E30 M3 ran at the front of the class while running a bone stock, high mileage motor and at JStock weight, so they know what works on the E30.

And Barry can drive the Balls off of one!

They have also done Ohlins on other Mod E30's, and setup their own cars.

There are not many people with E30's that have the ambition (or pocketsa deep enough) to go hardcore with thier chassis. There are only a dozen or so I know of in the US that have really tried to push the e30 chassis, and 4 of those are factory motorsport cars.

And Barry can drive the Balls off of one!

They have also done Ohlins on other Mod E30's, and setup their own cars.

There are not many people with E30's that have the ambition (or pocketsa deep enough) to go hardcore with thier chassis. There are only a dozen or so I know of in the US that have really tried to push the e30 chassis, and 4 of those are factory motorsport cars.

I heard that one of those Mod e30 guys tried 3 or 4 times unsuccessfully to get a competitive Ohlins quote. ;)

To clear some things up about Ohlins adjustments. For all "one knob" Ohlins the rebound AND compression is adjusted. They are done so at a pre-determined rate together with one knob. What does that mean? less confusion for the end user. So for all intents and purposes, they are double adjustable.

The canister ohlins add on a second piston in a canister that is used for high speed bump adjustment. Once again, you have two knobs but you are adjusting 3 aspects of the damper. So, again, for all intents and purposes, they are three way adjustable. Now... you can add on a 3rd knob to separate the adjustments but it is just not worth it. We don't even bother with our own car or Andy's.

The question is, do you have all this data for the E30 M3?

Mike
Yep. Got them adapted from the E36 application to fit the E30s on several cars right now, and a few cars are now going to get the 44mm struts. The E30 rear dampers are quite short, so we must use the STJ aluminum body damper.

Gustave, an E30 M3 afficionado, has some good E30 M3 suspension geometry diagrams on his website, http://www.e30m3performance.com. It takes a bit more to fully design spring and damper setups, but his info is a great help to those who want to DIY.

If you are talking about me that is true. I have left several messages at RRT about getting a quote on a set for my D-mod e30 m3 and no one has ever called me back. I have been debating on what to get and everyone says the Ohlins are the way to go, but I may end up having to go with Moton?


-Rick




I heard that one of those Mod e30 guys tried 3 or 4 times unsuccessfully to get a competitive Ohlins quote. ;)

To clear some things up about Ohlins adjustments. For all "one knob" Ohlins the rebound AND compression is adjusted. They are done so at a pre-determined rate together with one knob. What does that mean? less confusion for the end user.

And when valved correctly, as RRT has the tools/knowledge to do, it results in a damper with a significant amount of adjustment over a large range of clicks (with the "sweet spot" right in the middle) as compared to other double-adjustable "race" dampers I've used in the past (Koni's and AD's). The Ohlins from RRT and JRZ's from Bimmerworld are a significant step above the current popular Stock/Prepared class shocks (Koni, AD, Bilstein) on the market in my opinion.

If you are talking about me that is true. I have left several messages at RRT about getting a quote on a set for my D-mod e30 m3 and no one has ever called me back. I have been debating on what to get and everyone says the Ohlins are the way to go, but I may end up having to go with Moton?


-Rick

Rick, while I am no longer at RRT, I have to poke in and say a full quote was prepared and sent you immediately upon recieving interest from you. In fact, I still have the quote that was sent to you (and I believe emails as well). I'll talk with Barry and if he wants to take it and pass it along to you with the matching correspondences, I'd be happy to do that.

Barry, if you want it, or to just create a new quote, let me know, and I'll email it when I get home from work.

If you are talking about me that is true. I have left several messages at RRT about getting a quote on a set for my D-mod e30 m3 and no one has ever called me back. I have been debating on what to get and everyone says the Ohlins are the way to go, but I may end up having to go with Moton?


-Rick


We appologize for any missed call backs. Clearly it is not our intention to ignore people, why would we want to do that? As with everything in life we can't be perfect all the time. Things are hectic and overwhelming these days. We have two new additional hires in the last month so that helps. We hope you understand.

Now back on topic of the original poster...

Ohlins (USA) provides great support for their product. Shims, pistons, R&D, tools, etc... Direct Ohlins bolt ups for BMWs in the US is lacking, however. You will find most of their product line (or should I say advertising) for BMW's to be more oriented to European Touring Cars and the Sportline series is more oriented to the european/japan street customer. We have been working on taking the Ohlins product and developing it more for the US BMW street and track oriented customer. Some of it is direct bolt on but most of it is custom. We now have much of this in stock and are working directly with Ohlins on the US inventory of the products we use to fit our BMW needs. Hope this helps.

Yep. Got them adapted from the E36 application to fit the E30s on several cars right now, and a few cars are now going to get the 44mm struts. The E30 rear dampers are quite short, so we must use the STJ aluminum body damper.


Excellent, will be talking to you once the race car is sold.

Mike

I did get a quote back when you were there, but I have switched to e36 front spindles and was looking for a new on. I also want coilovers in the rear. Not a big deal to me. I did leave several messages though sense then.

-Rick


Rick, while I am no longer at RRT, I have to poke in and say a full quote was prepared and sent you immediately upon recieving interest from you. In fact, I still have the quote that was sent to you (and I believe emails as well). I'll talk with Barry and if he wants to take it and pass it along to you with the matching correspondences, I'd be happy to do that.

Barry, if you want it, or to just create a new quote, let me know, and I'll email it when I get home from work.

http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ohlinse36rc0.jpg

http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ohlinse36rc0.jpg

these are the shocks, that I'm using for almost 2 years now (together with Eibach springs) for street and also track events. These are off the shelf shocks for non-M3 E36 made in Japan, but can be modified for M3s by adding the sway bar link to the strut housing.

I really like these shocks, they are very easy to adjust (the adjusters are located at the lower end of the front strut and on top of the rear shock).

The adjustment range is huge (28 clicks or even more). I use settings at around 16-12 clicks from full stiff for street springs and these few clicks make already a big difference in shock rebound+compression.

I think these shocks would also work great with much stiffer springs and I'm thinking about replacing my Eibach springs with something stiffer, because I think I'm already in a "overdamped" range with the -12 clicks, that I'm using for the track. Maybe JamesM3M5 has some data what spring rates would be OK without the need for revalving?
These shocks in a coil-over setup with the possibility to use with race springs would give a nice competitive and cost effective setup. I'm wondering why there are not more people running such a setup.

I did get a quote back when you were there, but I have switched to e36 front spindles and was looking for a new on. I also want coilovers in the rear. Not a big deal to me. I did leave several messages though sense then.

-Rick

Gotcha.

Wet your appetite here (http://www.roadracetech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61)...

Then feel free to chow down here (http://www.roadracetech.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1189&zenid=33cbdbaae1c91d09a0105f08316dee7f)...

More main "dishes" on the menu soon.



Dropping cash on a top notch suspension vs. big money motor upgrades: saves $$$$

Blowing away your buddies on the track with 200 less hp... Priceless

Then feel free to chow down here (http://www.roadracetech.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1189&zenid=33cbdbaae1c91d09a0105f08316dee7f)...


Any high res pics of HMRC E46 front struts assembled? The picture on the website is the E36 strut, thanks.

Any high res pics of HMRC E46 front struts assembled? The picture on the website is the E36 strut, thanks.

On my way out to the shop in about 20mins. Will see what I can grab quick off the shelf and snap a pic.

Matt

Also thought I'd post this picture, pretty self explanatory for those that know the know :)

"The highlight of our two great days running the Aurok stand at the Autosport Engineering Show, held at the NEC in Birmingham, was for us, being presented with the "Best Product in Show" Award for the new Öhlins TTX McPherson damper.

A great deal of interest and excitement has been caused by this new product and the showing of its applications for BMW Touring Cars..."

http://home.btconnect.com/aurok/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/award.jpg

And more pictures to drool over

E90 TTX40's:

http://khmotorsport.se/images/ohlin/bmf6g00.jpg

http://khmotorsport.se/images/ohlin/bmf5g00.jpg



Matt, no need, I found one.

E46 HMRC Da/TA (this is whats going on my e46) This picture shows a topmount hose though.
http://khmotorsport.se/images/ohlin/bmx020f.jpg

On my way out to the shop in about 20mins. Will see what I can grab quick off the shelf and snap a pic.

Matt

I found one and linked to it in my last post, thanks anyways.

Here is an Ohlins E36/E46 Racing camber plate:

http://khmotorsport.se/images/ohlin/50751bmw.jpg

If you are talking about me that is true. I have left several messages at RRT about getting a quote on a set for my D-mod e30 m3 and no one has ever called me back. I have been debating on what to get and everyone says the Ohlins are the way to go, but I may end up having to go with Moton?


-Rick

Actually, I was referring to someone else a bit closer to home. I think the car would likely have Ohlins on it now had a competitive quote been submitted. Maybe next time. ;)

I wish my little company had so much business we were fighting the same sort of problems providing would-be customers with quotes! That's AWESOME that RRT has become so successful! :buttrock

Any high res pics of HMRC E46 front struts assembled? The picture on the website is the E36 strut, thanks.

Steve, here is the unassembled strut out of the box. Springs are on order and perches being designed as we speak.

http://www.roadracetech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60

Yep, saw that the other day, thanks.

I have the picture I was looking for though, I was just looking to see the width of the shaft on the bottom. I spoke with Barry before though, he cleared it all up for me, thanks Bar.

After talking it over with Barry, it won't work for my application to use the topmount hose, so as he has pictures, sidemount hose will work well.

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/links/e46_mod_ohlins.jpg

Matt, no need, I found one.

E46 HMRC Da/TA (this is whats going on my e46) This picture shows a topmount hose though.
http://khmotorsport.se/images/ohlin/bmx020f.jpg

Thank you! I got to the shop, we got to talking about this and that, and... Well, you know how that goes.

Barry & James,

Once you have a set on the dyno can you send me a sweep of the adjustments. You can send me the raw dyno file, I have a Roehrig as well. I am interested to see how much low speed control they have with the adjustments. I have E36/46 moton files I can share with you to compare.

-tony

Barry & James,

Once you have a set on the dyno ...

-tony


They have had many sets on the dyno :) Its an addictive toy for a suspension engineer lol

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/videos/dyno.wmv

Why don't we share the files publicly and overlap them for everyone to analyze. Would be very interesting to do a direct comparison on raw data.

Better yet, each of you should grab a set of motons and ohlins (Koni and AD too ;)) and do both on your own dyno...I know RRT will definitely be comparing many shocks to the ohlins on their dyno, Tony you should do the same, and if you guys are comfortable sharing data (most are not) it would be a great demonstration.

Barry & James,

Once you have a set on the dyno can you send me a sweep of the adjustments. You can send me the raw dyno file, I have a Roehrig as well. I am interested to see how much low speed control they have with the adjustments. I have E36/46 moton files I can share with you to compare.

-tony

Tony,

I'll shoot you an e-mail tomorrow or give you a buzz.

For a street/track setup, what is a realistic life span for a set of DA's? How much does it cost to maintain them?

For a street/track setup, what is a realistic life span for a set of DA's? How much does it cost to maintain them?

Depends on where you drive.

Depends on where you drive.

Please elaborate. I love in socal, i've been driving lowered/modified cars for many years (dont mash over bumps). Track days w/ speed ventures at HT, streets, BW, and occasional LS.

If you drive on very bumpy roads daily, it can reduce the "life" between rebuild intervals if a 'race shock' is used.

However, Moton Clubsports and Ohlins have been used successfully on daily drivers, but its overkill really.

Its not a dd. I have my accord for that. I've always ran kw's, or pss9's which last longer than the car. Are they going to last 5000 miles, 10000? Whats realistic?

Well, PSS9/KW (v2/v3) are designed for daily use, so they should hold up no problem (even though many times they blow out for not being valved properly for the springs they are used with).

5000 miles on decent roads with the monthly DE should be no problem for clubsports/ohlins. It'll come down to the valving and spring selection as well.

Only one real way to find out though, bite the bullet :)

If you are asking about the "motorsport" ohlins (comperable to the motorsport Motons) we have not tried any on the "street" yet. A set is going on one of our street cars for the Grassroots UTC. I can tell you this though... Andy's Watts' C Mod car has had them on there for almost two years and we just dynoed them the other day and they are as good as new. Also, the nitrogen has been checked periodically and he/we have NEVER had to add any in the two years.

We have had several sets of the street/track setups on e36 cars (one for 30k I know for sure) for over two years and they are as good as new. Those have been driving around on the crappy DC Metro roads through ice/snow/salt/rain etc... Once again we have never had to add nitrogen or anything.

So this is not to say they are indestructable, as with any mechanical part things can and will get messed up. Everyone's experiences may vary.

If you are asking about the "motorsport" ohlins (comperable to the motorsport Motons) we have not tried any on the "street" yet. A set is going on one of our street cars for the Grassroots UTC. I can tell you this though... Andy's Watts' C Mod car has had them on there for almost two years and we just dynoed them the other day and they are as good as new. Also, the nitrogen has been checked periodically and he/we have NEVER had to add any in the two years.

We have had several sets of the street/track setups on e36 cars (one for 30k I know for sure) for over two years and they are as good as new. Those have been driving around on the crappy DC Metro roads through ice/snow/salt/rain etc... Once again we have never had to add nitrogen or anything.

So this is not to say they are indestructable, as with any mechanical part things can and will get messed up. Everyone's experiences may vary.

good to hear