I keep reading about how much better it is (all around) when people use "the proper" braking technique... but what is this mysterious technique?

There are different times to use it and those are given names. But I'm not sure what you mean. There isn't one "this is how you use your brakes".

:confused

"THE" proper way is whatever the driver is comfortable using to get the car slowed down as quick as possible while maintaining full control, allowing fastest speed to be maintained through and out of the corners.

:confused

Ditto.

:conf :ban: :thanks:

Im just talking about a basic straight line brake zone, no trail baking or anything. Of course there are an infinite number of situations that require different things, but I'll just leave those out. For instance should you be quick on the brakes and quick off... but not so quick to upset the car. Or will this leave pad deposits if you're too quick? Maybe its just a stupid question that there is no answer to.

For instance should you be quick on the brakes and quick off... but not so quick to upset the car. Or will this leave pad deposits if you're too quick? Maybe its just a stupid question that there is no answer to.


I've found the exact opposite to be true. You want to coast into the braking zones and slowly get on the brakes. :devillook

So there's no concern about using a technique to preserve the fluid or the pads/rotors? There's nothing to be said about whether one should allow ABS to kick in or whether one should threshold brake to the point where ABS is about to kick in? It doesn't matter if one jumps on the brake pedal or simply squeezes it quickly? No comments on when left-foot braking should be used?

I thought it was a legitimate question - one that I'd like to hear from some of the quality drivers on.

I wasn't aware that the numerous books on performance driving could be distilled down to "Get around the track in the shortest amount of time."

So there's no concern about using a technique to preserve the fluid or the pads/rotors? There's nothing to be said about whether one should allow ABS to kick in or whether one should threshold brake to the point where ABS is about to kick in? It doesn't matter if one jumps on the brake pedal or simply squeezes it quickly? No comments on when left-foot braking should be used?

I thought it was a legitimate question - one that I'd like to hear from some of the quality drivers on.

I wasn't aware that the numerous books on performance driving could be distilled down to "Get around the track in the shortest amount of time."

Personally, I dont left-foot brake. My feet are too big. I get on the brakes pretty good to the point of ABS kicking in. Thats what racing is about, whoever can get on the gas the quickest and the brakes the latest.

Also, I have no regard for rotors/fluid/pads. Im pretty sure you wear them out faster if you ride the brakes anyway.

What I have learned in experience in DE's and club racing is that eveyone has their own version of "proper" braking, and it depends somewhat on the car.
Personally I have learned to be more aggressive on initial brake application (but not enough to upset the car) and do my best threshold braking in the first 80% of the braking zone. It is tough to learn at first, as most learn in street driving to coast in the first 50% of their approach and then progressivly get harder on the brakes as you approach a stop sign, traffic light, etc.
If you concentrate on getting to threshold braking as quickly as possible in the braking zone you are going faster, the wheels are less likely to lock up or hit abs at higher speeds, and you are still getting alot of air pumped through rotor vanes and/or brake ducting. As you get closer to the turn you can start to modulate the pedal so that you get the highest entry speed possible and can play with trail braking.
Soon enough, braking zones shrink as you are braking harder and for a shorter period of time, and if you can manage higher turn in speeds (as you are learning to trail off the brakes and thus not overslowing) you get the double bonus of having less energy to scrub off as well.
Like I said, eveyone has their own idea of "proper" braking, and this is what works for me, especially when driving a car that needs a little brake preservation.

Also, I have no regard for rotors/fluid/pads.

Why would someone even track if they are worried about pad wear? Might as well run very little negative camber and some TOE IN while you are at it to conserve tires! ;) :rolleyes

Thanks Bimmerworld for taking my $222 for brake pads today! :eek:

Why would someone even track if they are worried about pad wear? Might as well run very little negative camber and some TOE IN while you are at it to conserve tires! ;) :rolleyes

Thanks Bimmerworld for taking my $222 for brake pads today! :eek:


I dunno, just answering a question that was posted:embarrasm

Why would someone even track if they are worried about pad wear? Might as well run very little negative camber and some TOE IN while you are at it to conserve tires! ;) :rolleyes
Who said anything about wear? I was referring to potential overheating issues. It may not be a concern for folks running race pads, but I imagine it could be for someone learning the basics of getting around the track quickly.

since many have posted but few have tried to answer, I'll give it a shot.

the key is smoothness, as it is in all track driving. Imagine you have a (strong) egg on the ground. If you gradually step on it, it will bear your weight, but if you jump on it, it will break. Envision that egg glued to your brake pedal.

You want to ease the nose down during braking so it is in its steady state position at threshhold braking. Stomp too hard/fast and the nose dives suddenly, diving more than it should and coming back up before settling into the steady state position, adversely affecting braking because as it rises it unweights the nose somewhat. the car responds best to smooth inputs.

Same thing when getting off the brakes. Jump off them suddenly and the nose jumps up, past the point where it rests normally, and then has to come back down, and may oscillate a bit. Doing that just before a turn is going to make it tough for the suspension to load and set for the turn. Get off them smoothly and the nose comes up gradually and stops pretty much where it should, allowing you to more easily load and set the suspension for the corner. In my experience, the brakes become more effective as the car slows, so you have to carefully back out of the pedal to avoid getting into the ABS (or lockup if you don't have ABS) as the car slows, then smoothly get off altogether.

Now the tricky part is being smooth AND quick. If you take all day to get on or off the brakes, you can't be on the throttle (unless you are using both feet) and you will be slow. All this has to be done quickly, and for me, that takes (more) practice.

Not sure if this is what you were looking for, but here it is.

To add to that....

The whole point of brakes isn't all about slowing the car, it's also about setting up the weight transfer to the outside front corner and to get the car to the fastest speed that your chosen line will bear.

Also, driving fast at an HPDE is different then driving fast in a race. Did you ever notice that, in a race, the leader will normally stretch out a lead while #2 and #3 gradually fall behind as they duke it out? that is becuase the #2 car is worried about getting to and into the corner first, which is not allways the fastest way to do it.

If you imagine a yard stick on the outside front corner, this is what SHOULD happen:
Get into the brake zone and apply the brakes.
The front end will dive a bit, compressing the front struts.
As you come to turn-in, ease off the brakes as you turn in.
The outside front should stay compressed the same amount as you transition from full brakes to full turn.

As M3 Pete said - it's all about smoothness. Done right, there shouldn't be any head bobbing on your part. The amount of pull on your chest by the chest belt should gradually rise, then transition to side force in the middle of the corner - no jerks or bumps.

The amount of overlap between the brakes and how much you turn the wheel is called trail-braking. How much, if any, that is used is totaly dependent upon the car, the corner and the skill of the driver.

The other issue that needs to be considered is brake pad temperature. If you get the pads too hot, they will loose their effectiveness and perhaps leave pad deposits down. You can also boil the fluid, which puts air into the system or heat up a rubber brake line so that they flex too much. Both of which will give you a soft pedal.

There are other problems like pad knock-back that we'll leave alone for now. :)

Brakes don't need to be used to threshold at every corner, many time - at least for HPDEs you don't need to, nore should you. Sometimes, just a light tap to set up the front end for a fast, quick corner is all that's needed, not a full 100% application.

The rate of application is pretty simple. progressivly apply the brakes in about the same amount of time it takes to say "ease". Obviously, this will change depending on the car, corner and driver skill. Softer suspension or bumpier entries should take a little longer. it all depends on how fast the nose of the car can or needs to be settled. 500# springs with competition strut cars can do it faster.

Oh, yeah, if you do a driver's school, watch your instructor. Even on Speed channel - watch the in car cameras. Most are very calm and deliberate as they drive. If you didn't know they where going very fast, you'd think they where out for a sunday drive. Suprisingly slow movements, very smooth motions.

Watching the Speed test drives is pretty good example of what you are referring to. They talk to each other while driving, outbraking each other, and getting very loose while chatting it up...impressive.

You want to ease the nose down during braking so it is in its steady state position at threshhold braking. Stomp too hard/fast and the nose dives suddenly, diving more than it should and coming back up before settling into the steady state position, adversely affecting braking because as it rises it unweights the nose somewhat. the car responds best to smooth inputs.

Not just the car, but the tires as well. The tires don't repond well to sudden loads, which makes being smooth with both your turn-ins and your braking/throttle important.

when your at the end of a straight, at your braking point, if you have ABS (which you do), hit the damn brakes as hard as you can. Dont suddenly smash it down with all your might, but very quickly and firmly press the pedal down as far as it will go.

joe

when your at the end of a straight, at your braking point, if you have ABS (which you do), hit the damn brakes as hard as you can. Dont suddenly smash it down with all your might, but very quickly and firmly press the pedal down as far as it will go.

Ehh, if you actually pay attention to your braking, you can slow down quicker than the ABS will. On top of it, if you learn to threshold brake, you won't go skidding/spinning off the track into the tirewall when your ABS goes out at the end of the back straight (I've seen it happen). Not to mention that ABS isn't always a given in a race car, so it's good to know how to brake properly in case you ever decide to move to a different car/series.

Threshold braking(avoiding ABS) is quicker than hitting ABS, correct?

Yes. Applying the brakes and modulating them at the limit of adhesion is better than the computer pulsing the brakes on and off...while the brakes are off, they aren't slowing you down.

Yes. Applying the brakes and modulating them at the limit of adhesion is better than the computer pulsing the brakes on and off...while the brakes are off, they aren't slowing you down.
I once heard a race car engineer saying the drivers were "on the ABS every corner" which confused me.

Keep in mind that highly developed racing ABS systems are much better than the "don't slide into the car in front when you slam on the brakes in the rain" ABS system on your BMW. Even then, braking at the threshold just before lockup (at the tire's optimum slip) is the fastest way to slow down, but changing surface conditions, tire conditions, etc, etc mean that it's sometimes impossible for a driver to react to those changes quicker than a very developed ABS.

This car had factory brakes I beleive.

The nice thing about the track is that the surface is almost always very clean and consistent. Unlike a road where thre are patches, pot holes, slickes, gravel, etc.

On a track it is much easier to get at least 3 of your tires scrubbing a little bit just prior to ABS application. The rear end will waggle just a tad and you should be able to hear the front tires 'talk' a little bit. On street tires, they will talk more then r comps.

The problem with common ABS systems is that there is a little bit of hysteresis. Which means that once ABS turns on, you need to almost unload the brakes all the way to get out of ABS. BMWs system is better then most, but there is still that behavior.

I run my track car with the ABS disconnected while on track. Years ago I learned threshold braking while motorcycle racing. No one mentioned it yet, but, you should listen to your tires. They can give you excellent feedback as to what they are doing. The entry to turn one at my local track is fairly bumpy in the braking zone. I listen for chirps from the front inside tire to help with brake modulation.

Damon in STL

Why would someone even track if they are worried about pad wear? Might as well run very little negative camber and some TOE IN while you are at it to conserve tires! ;)

Toe-in conserves tires, eh?

Mkay. :confused

the proper technique is use less of them.
I seem to remember a great man once saying "More gas, less brake"

watts nailed it, dont lock them up but brake as hard as possible like another pound of pressure and they lock up thats optimal braking.

yeah like when on the first lap the asshat in the ford mustang has to bring his pig to screaching hault and you dive to the inside of 5 at summit and find yourself a little too far inside it makes out braking difficult in that corner for a few laps...seeing as you drug 2 cubic yards of dirt and every other piece of debris out on to the track. Damn American Sedans

Train without ABS...just watch WC races and you'll see good threshold braking without ABS.

the proper technique is use less of them.
I seem to remember a great man once saying "More gas, less brake"

watts nailed it, dont lock them up but brake as hard as possible like another pound of pressure and they lock up thats optimal braking.

yeah like when on the first lap the asshat in the ford mustang has to bring his pig to screaching hault and you dive to the inside of 5 at summit and find yourself a little too far inside it makes out braking difficult in that corner for a few laps...seeing as you drug 2 cubic yards of dirt and every other piece of debris out on to the track. Damn American Sedans
:lol
oh so true andrew!!! i am not looking forward to the its class running with the american sedans in the marrs series this year....we will be feeling your pain...:(

Train without ABS...just watch WC races and you'll see good threshold braking without ABS.

Ok I'll weigh in here. We are not talking about race cars for the most part we are talking about stock breaking systems. I think 99% of the DE crowd have no idea how much of the ABS they are actually using. I'm definitely faster with ABS ON in my stock car (E30 M3), it is very hard to feel the threshold on my stock braking system (stock with ABS off), you don't feel the lock up until the car is noticeably sliding forward, I can't see the smoke from the tires remember, there is no audible warning with Hoosiers until too late. You can turn the brake booster off but in my car the effort required was just silly. My point is in theory no ABS is faster but in reality on a stock system damn near everyone will be faster with ABS on. It is good practice to run without the ABS just so you realize that you are probably braking too hard on the pedal and get a better idea where the threshold is but apart from that I see no reason to run with it off. Also in panic situations there is always the tendency to push harder on the brake pedal in which case you are going to lock up and brake even less. I raced with my ABS off when I was not that used to it and there were definitely a few oh shit moments where I thought I was going to hit someone, I just didn't have enough feel in the pedal. Even when I felt like I wasn't locking up the wheels people behind said I was putting up small puffs of tire smoke all over the place. Just my 2 cents.

Hi Simon,

It's interesting that you say you are faster with the ABS on. I've run with it more off than on and to me, the e30 M3 has a very good feel when threshold braking. I initially was tracking my mostly stock e30 M3 without the ABS because it wasn't working. I then found the problem (cut drivers side rear sensor wire) and ran at Putnam last year in June with it on and off during the DE. The only time I got into the ABS was turn seven and it did not feel as if I had as much braking power as when I was running with it off. I was actually having to start braking earlier, because when the ABS would engage, I wasn't slowing down enough and would end up deeper into the corner.

On my new to me track car (Bruce Hollet's ex ITGT car) I ran it with the ABS enabled for a while in my first couple of sessions at a DE in October and running on RA1s. Then I had a discussion with another e30 M3 nut (Sam S.) and he explained to me that the street version of the e30 M3 ABS was not able to react "fast" enough and thus goes into ABS mode prior to reaching the maximum braking capabilities of the tires. The RA1s I was running were pretty much used up and and would give out more of a sliding sound than a high pitched chirping of a street tire (Falken RT-615). In November, I was running no ABS on a new shaved set of RA1s and they had a bit more feedback sound. I've never run on Hoosiers, so, that may be part of the difference (not being able to hear them). Oh, and I was running Hawk Blues.

Damon in STL

Hi Simon,

I was actually having to start braking earlier, because when the ABS would engage, I wasn't slowing down enough and would end up deeper into the corner.

On my new to me track car (Bruce Hollet's ex ITGT car) I ran it with the ABS enabled for a while in my first couple of sessions at a DE in October and running on RA1s. Then I had a discussion with another e30 M3 nut (Sam S.) and he explained to me that the street version of the e30 M3 ABS was not able to react "fast" enough and thus goes into ABS mode prior to reaching the maximum braking capabilities of the tires. The RA1s I was running were pretty much used up and and would give out more of a sliding sound than a high pitched chirping of a street tire (Falken RT-615). In November, I was running no ABS on a new shaved set of RA1s and they had a bit more feedback sound. I've never run on Hoosiers, so, that may be part of the difference (not being able to hear them). Oh, and I was running Hawk Blues.

Damon in STL

Obviously you can still get into the ABS too much if you aren't braking correctly and yes this can cause you to seem to scoot forward a bit as the abs works. I just find that you get the same sensation only worse when the tires are locked up and you get a nice tasty flat spot on your new Hoosier. I just think if you are really braking to the max in a relatively stock E30 M3 it is easier to find the absolute limit of braking with the ABS on than with it off. I'm not saying Sam S is wrong in what he said but that does not mean he can drive the car quicker with the ABS off. I can run DE laps all day with the ABS off but if I really want the confidence to be able to do hot lap after hot lap I'm better with it on, I'm talking maybe a second a lap and even less than that at Gateway. It also depends on the corner, try braking into the entry of the carasoel at Mid Ohio with no abs at the latest point, it is very tricky to get the full braking you are used to and not flat spot tires, it is almost a non event with the ABS on. Trail braking is also easier with the ABS on. It can be very interesting trail braking when you have just a rear locked up and you don't know it. Its just my experience as always ymmv.

Its just my experience as always ymmv.

Depending on the complexity of the ABS system, ABS can be better than no ABS. With good three and four channel systems, the ABS computer can actively bias the brakes using the ABS especially when trail braking - a lightly-loaded inside wheel may be under the influence of ABS while an outside wheel can still handle some braking power. Without ABS, that inside wheel might lock up, causing the driver to back off brake pressure (and netting you a nice flat spot).

"In theory" ABS hurts stopping distances because the "lock - release" action of ABS is not the ideal way to manage the available grip. But "in reality" I've found it to be faster for me.

Simon,

I know you are pretty quick in a e30 M3. Do you think you are faster with ABS on because it gives you a more confident feeling when you are on the edge? Or, because the ABS system is just better than threshold braking? I had made a conscious decision to drive without the ABS. Now I'm wondering if this is the best decision.

On a side note, back when I raced bikes (about 15 years ago), there was nothing but threshold braking. It was okay to lock the rear on occasion, but, locking up the front was a no no...unless you are completely straight. I still feel the pain of going into turn 6 at Blackhawk and grabbing the front brake only to have the bike disappear underneath me while I continued down track like a rag doll. Someone had been running antifreeze and covered the braking area with it the day before. As soon as I touched the front brakes the front end folded over.....ouch!

Damon in STL

Not just the car, but the tires as well. The tires don't repond well to sudden loads, which makes being smooth with both your turn-ins and your braking/throttle important.True, and in fact everything everyone has said about this all comes down to the tires, which are the only thing that provides traction for braking, turning, or acceleration.

The car and suspension really couldn't care less if you mash the brake, turn in too suddenly, or mat the throttle on every trackout, they can handle it. Rather it's the tires that do the complaining and lose grip when you bounce the suspension around, and once they lose grip, it's harder to get it back, causing you to slow down to regain control.

True, and in fact everything everyone has said about this all comes down to the tires, which are the only thing that provides traction for braking, turning, or acceleration.

The car and suspension really couldn't care less if you mash the brake, turn in too suddenly, or mat the throttle on every trackout, they can handle it. Rather it's the tires that do the complaining and lose grip when you bounce the suspension around, and once they lose grip, it's harder to get it back, causing you to slow down to regain control.

Well, thats not entirely true. While I agree tires are pretty much the most important factor, there are obviously ways to design suspension to benefit the tires, especially when you have tire data and can design specifically for those exact tires.

Well, thats not entirely true. While I agree tires are pretty much the most important factor, there are obviously ways to design suspension to benefit the tires, especially when you have tire data and can design specifically for those exact tires.We are on the same page, and maybe splitting hairs here. I never said suspension was not important, or could not be setup to help tires to retain grip.

My point is that everything ultimately acts on the tires. Whether it is properly setup suspension, smooth (or jerky) inputs, or whatever, it all ultimately impacts the ability of the tires to retain sufficient traction. The point of "proper" braking technique (the original question of this thread) is to allow the tires to perform at their optimum level during deceleration and turn-in.

they put ITS with big bore? atleast ill have someone to race with. You guys did dominate the production car group, and there are so many production car whiners out there, i guess they got thier way. I was going to put my car in SPU next year but i will need a fuel cell.

So the moral of the story is....

go out and try different things. It all depends on the car, driver, tires and track.

:)

So the moral of the story is....

go out and try different things. It all depends on the car, driver, tires and track.

:)

You forgot Rotational Angle of the Moon with relationship to the Suns brightness. lol

Simon,

I know you are pretty quick in a e30 M3. Do you think you are faster with ABS on because it gives you a more confident feeling when you are on the edge? Or, because the ABS system is just better than threshold braking? I had made a conscious decision to drive without the ABS. Now I'm wondering if this is the best decision.

Damon in STL

I would say yes because the car is easier to drive, especially trail braking or in transition stages, I don't think my straight line braking is maximized but I think you have to be very skilled to brake 100% without ABS at every corner as opposed to just using the brakes at 110% and letting the ABS help you. Since I've driven without the ABS I now know roughly what pressure I need for maximum braking and just push the pedal that hard and then let the ABS help if I screw it up slightly. Without the ABS on if I go slightly over threshold and lock a wheel I've ruined my lap already, I'm just not skilled enough to run with the same pace consitently without ABS, and I would guess 99% of the people reading this aren't either. I would turn it back on if I were you, why not use it? Since you've been driving with it off for so long you will have a good feel already for the foot pressure required for maximum braking, so you won't be getting into the ABS anyway. Also trail braking is easier in my opinion, I can push the brake pedal too hard (not be smooth) and the ABS will smooth out my inputs almost and not result in snap oversteer at entry. You still have to be smooth don't get me wrong but I just find it is useful especially for consitency and emergency situations in races. Again just my 2 cents, YMMV, I think it is still good to drive without ABS just so you know what to expect and you are way ahead there and it will help you in the long run.

Straightline braking?
Squeeze on the brakes and do what you can to keep weight transfer minimal before entering the turn.