I have a 96 jet black 328ic with 111,000 miles

I have tried many different products and techniques to get rid of, or at least reduce the appearance of swirls/spiderwebs/surface scratches, but none seem to work. I have used the following (by hand and always using microfiber towels to remove)

1) clay magic clay, klasse aio, klasse sg
2) 3m smr for dark cars, klasse sg, +zymol carbon
3) and finally last weekend, meguiars scratch x, + zymol HD cleanse, +zymol carbon wax.

It looks perfect in medium to low light, but in direct sunlight, the paint looks brownish, and the spiderwebs are clearly visible, especially on the horizontal surfaces.

Basically this has pissed me off so much Im about to sell the car. If anyone has any suggestions, or tips, please let me know. I was going to buy a porter cable and see if that helps, I think if that doesnt work, that will be the last straw.
:mad:

Try Zaino - this is all I have to offer.

Another thing is, when you are wxing your vehicle, when you apply the wax/polish, apply it in a circular motion and do NOT use force when applying the pad to the metal surface. Using force, or even using an orbital buffer with force will create swirls. Let the pad basically glide under your hand/palm when applying the wax/polish.

Now, when removing the wax/polish, do not remove it in a circular fashion, remove it by "going with the grain". What I mean by this is, suppose you are now at the hood, and you want to remove the wax/polish you have applied - you will want to remove this polish/wax by taking your towel and starting either at the front (or rear) and wiping up towards the windshield, in a vertical motion (the reverse applies if you started at the windshield, you will go from the windshield towards the front bumper).

The sides of the car, go side to side - not up and down, not circular, etc....

If you have applied the wax/polish correctly and evenly, it shoud be easy to remove just by gliding the towel over or across it. If it does not come off easily, you are using too much polish/wax and making it harder on yourself.

Always turn the towel over and over, or get a new towel when removing wax/polish - this is another way to avoid the swirls, and so forth. A clean towel will produce better results.

One other tip - if you re-use your towels, or wash them - when you goto dry them do NOT use any sort of fabric softener. The chemicals in the fabric softener will wreak havoc with you when trying to remove wax/polishes, this also creates some swirl marks, or "smears". Always use 100% USA MADE 100% COTTON TOWELS and nothing less. By using those type of towles, you will also avoid fine scratches, etc in the surface of the clear coat.

Ever look at your car under a flourescent light? You don't want to, the surface will look horrible if looking down the side of the car, especially if it's the type of car that sees car washes instead of owner hand washing.....

But, in all honesty, Zaino does work, I've never heard of anyone complain about it.

i need to do this too:(

The swirls, cuts, and scratches can be removed.

However, "spiderwebbing" is a microscopic crack in the surface of the paint. It can never be fixed even if you try your hardest it can never be fully hidden. Show car paints have a thicker clear coat on top which do not spider web, but with quality comes cost. It is just something that all paint surfaces face unfortunately.:(

Thanks for the advice guys.

Cobra Jet- i guess i've been doing it wrong :( I always thought when you buff the wax to remove it, you go in light circles. Guess I was wrong. So your supposed to apply in a circular motion and remove in a top to bottom motion. Hopefully I haven't done any permanant damage. :(

Hyperion- Can you explain the difference between spriderwebs and swirls. My problem is that there are like little lines in a circular pattern all over the horizontal surfaces of the car. Sounds like spiderwebs to me, but I want to be sure.
Hope thats not what it is :(

thanks guys

Troy, don't sell the car just yet... You're on the right track to a swirl free car with the purchase of a porter cable. Get yourself some "cutting pads" and some 3M Finesse It-II machine polish. This is slightly more aggressive than their SMR, and it works wonders on stubborn swirls. I would recommend the SMR first, a few applications with the cutting pad, then move on to the FI-II if you think it's necessary.

I have a cosmos M3 which had swirls when I bought it, and since buying a PC, the finish is 90% swirl free. Don't be afraid of the Porter Cable...it's intimidating at first, but really is very safe. You need to use it on speed 6, and YES YOU DO HAVE TO APPLY some pressure... That is if you really wish to remove the swirls.

Someone mentioned applying waxes and polishes in a circular motion....WRONG... Majority of waxes say right on the bottle to apply in straight "back and forth" motions...this is to prevent swirls!!!

Also, buy yourself some good microfiber towels for removal of wax and polish, and basically for any application removal on your paint. 100% cotton towels are a thing of the past...Microfiber towels are softer and will not damage paint finish if they are clean....

Good luck, hit me up with more questions if you have any....

Also, one least thing...claying will NOT remove swirls!

Thanks M3Ryder. Sweet car.
I'm not giving up yet! I'm going to give it a go with the pc and some Finesse It II.
Thanks for the advice bro.

Spiderwebs are usually only visible under high light and look like ultra ultra fine microscpic swirls. You should be able to see them, but not feel them.

Most swirl marks you can get your fingernail into or you can feel it. With a spiderweb you cannot.

Literally a spiderweb looks like a spider laid a large large web over the hood of your car in a billion circular patterns.

Here is a trick to inspect your paint shove your hand into a zip lock baggy then go inspect the paint. It will magnify the impurities and the cuts/swirls.

Also... As for back and forth Vs. Circular. I don't really buy that argument. I have tried both and it is really ludicrous to think that rubbing differently is going to solve somthing. Sure it will stop "swirl" marks, but it will just be creating "streamline" marks. Which is better a swirl or a streamlined mark? In my experience using a lare circular pattern has been the most efficient and effective. I did not care for the back and forth meathod at all and I thought it looked more apparent as to where the car was rubbed as opposed to a circular pattern.

But that is just my opinion.

I have been thinking of getting a PC because these swirl marks are driving me crazy!!!!!

I have been thinking of getting a PC because these swirl marks are driving me crazy!!!!! :mad: :mad:
Anyways, you should be able to get at least 80% of the swirls out with a PC and the right products (3M SMR, 3M FI-II, Meguiars dual action cleaner/polisher) right?

Ahem.... yes NEVER apply or remove waxes/polish/whatever in a circular motion. Always in one directions...side to side. You only go in circle with a WASH MITT.

ON another note.. ORBITALS DON'T take out swirls or "spiderwebs" aka Oxidation. Of course if you use a glaze or polish with an Orbital, at first it LOOKS like it did, but you are only seeing the glaze/polish filling in the swirl crevasses. After a few weeks, they return.

The PC ROTARY BUFFER with Meguairs fine cut or medium cut cleaner will literally in a few passes make your finish baby smooth.
It takes out scratches, scuffs, key scratches, etc. It spins at a faster speed and produces friction.

ORBITALs are meant to apply wax and polish, they don't rotate at a high enough RPM to produce heat/friction to remove surface imperfections (quote from Meguairs rep on phone).

Lapollos tools sells the Rotary Buffer for about $175 shipped. They also have the Orbital Polisher for $155 shipped. I have both of these units.

The Rotary can yes, literally take the paint OFF your car. So I advise first timers to use the lowest speed setting 2 or 3 and try a few passes. You'll see results even then. If the passes don't succeed to completely remove the marks, go to 4 or go to a higher cut cleaner (i.e. fine -> medium)

Have fun!!!

Oh my.... In some way or another I disagree with 1 or 2 things everyone has told you.

The products you mentioned in your first post will NOT do anything for swirl removal, especially by hand. You have a black car. Swirls are magnified even more on this colour.

My colour is Boston Green, and it was swirled like crazy. B4 I got into detailing, I used to do everything wrong. Wash, wax, polish, etc.

First and foremost, clay will not remove any swirls. Secondly, DO NOT APPLY ANY WAX OR POLISH IN A CIRCULAR MOTION!!!!!

Why you ask? If you happen to get any grit trapped in your application, you will make a bigger mess with circular scratches as opposed to back and forth. Trust me, it's much harder to see front to back microscratches then circular. The light has to hit an exact way to see the f to b. With circular, the lines are going in all different directions, when light hits, something is bound to show, and it won't look good.

Also, if you use an abrasive polish and you don't break it down fully, then it will leave a haze (aka very fine swirls) in your paint. Again, it's better to have f to b swirls/haze. Same reason as above.

There is a difference between between swirls and spiderwebbing.

Spiderwebbing is in THE ACTUAL PIGMENT (IE THE PAINT ITSELF). NOT THE CLEARCOAT. IT CANNOT BE FIXED UNLESS YOU REPAINT YOUR CAR. Even then there is no guarantee that it will be resolved. Spiderwebbing is VERY common on all black cars, not just yours. It is also a problem on other darker colours as well, but not always.

Swirl marks are ultra fine scratches IN YOUR CLEARCOAT that cannot be felt with a fingernail, but are visible in strong light. These are mainly the result of improper washing technique. You need to use the "two-bucket" wash method.

Scratches are exactly as the name implies. This is obvious physical damage to the clearcoat and possibly basecoat and primer(depending on how deep). They can be felt with your fingernail.

The baggy test that someone told you to do to test the severity of your scratches is a waste of time. That test was intednded to see if you need to clay your car. You will not be able to feel swirl marks with a plastic bag or otherwise covering your hand!

As for the porter cable random orbital polisher remoiving swirls:

IT DOES WORK!!!! I own one, I should know. Rotaries are VERY VERY DANGEROUS FOR BEGINNERS!!! One false move and you can literally burn a hole in your paint, or get some nasty buffer burn marks. The PC is fool proof.

This should be your plan.

1. Wash with regular car wash soap, NOT DAWN!

2. Use the baggy trick to see if you need to clay. If your paint feels sandy, then clay. Use the mothers kit. It's readily available @ pep boys, autozone etc, and it's pretty good. Stay away from meguiars clay. It is shit!!

3. Buy yourself a PC 7336, not the 7424. The 7336 comes with the 6 inch counterweight, whereas the 7424 comes with the 5 inch weight. You need to match the backing pad diameter with the weight. Example, 6 inch plate should be used with 6 inch weight, and 5 with 5. This is necessary so that the machine does not vibrate excessively and get damaged. You can get the PC 7336 @ Lowes for like $109.


Then, get the DM-KIT pad set from CMA. Here is their link:
http://www.properautocare.com/porcabackit.html

These pads and their backing plate are all made specifically for the PC.

Use the yellow cutting pad with 3M Finesse IT II finishing material (p# 39003). Don't waste your time with 3M smr for dark cars. It has oils and fillers in it. It's shit. I know, I've used that too.

Apply three lines around the edge of the pad. Take the polisher and smear the product into the section you are going to work. This will totally eliminate splatter. Do 2x2 sections at a time. Turn the machine on, and work the product in @ speed 2. Go in up and down and then back and forth overlapping motions. When the polish starts to dry, up the speed to 4-4.5 and buff off as much as you can. The shine should start to come thru. Use a quality cotton or MF towel to remove any remainig residue. Do each 2x 2 section as many times as you have to. I ended up doing my hood roof and trunk 5 times. I spent 8 hours alone just doing those sections. I used three apps on the rest of the car. I ended up removing 95% of my swirls. I am very happy. Also, DO NOT APPLY ANY PRESSURE ON THE POLISHER. Let the weight of the polisher do the work. YOU WILL ruin the machine if you bear down on it.

Now after you are done with the FI (Finesse It), you will notice a faint f to b haze on your car in bright sun (especially on black). Don't worry.

4. Take your white polishing pad and apply klasse AIO in the same manner you did with the FI. You may need to use 2 or 3 apps on the entire car. THIS WILL REMOVE THE HAZE. AIO is a less abrasive product than FI. It will be able to level out your surface by getting rid of the swirls/have that FI left behind. It will leave you with a mirrior like finish.

5. Apply one coat of klasse SG with a foam applicator by hand. Mist the applicator with Some NON-CARNUBA BASED quick detailer. Meguiars Final Inspection is what I use. Then apply SG to your car. You shold use no more than one ounce per coat of SG. Take a dry MF or cotton, and buff off to a brilliant shine. Do not use any water or QD to aid in removal. This will just make the klasse haze down the road. I've also experienced this.

Wait AT LEAST 24 hours b4 applying another coat of SG. SG needs time to cure and bond to your paint surface. I would personally wait a week. If you've driven the car ANYWHERE, then wash it b4 applying the next layer, or else you will just re-swirl your car.

Put on three coats of SG, and you will be good to go.

As for zaino, IT WILL NOT REMOVE ANY SWIRLS. It will not remove any haze either. Zaino is toally non abrasive. It will actually magnify your swirls and make them look worse because of it's high optical properties. Z5 is supposed to fill in swirls, and it does, but only swirls that exist in existing layers of z2. It will not cover swirls in the clearcoat. You need to get your paint as perfect as possible b4 using zaino.

Any questions, please let me know! You don't need to sell your car. You just need to be willing to put in the time to fix what has taken you possibly years to accumulate. There is no magic 5 minute cure. I wish there was.

Let me know how it goes. Take it easy.
:)

Originally posted by David
Use the yellow cutting pad with 3M Finesse IT II finishing material (p# 39003). Don't waste your time with 3M smr for dark cars. It has oils and fillers in it. It's shit. I know, I've used that too.

:)
What about Meguiars #9 2.0? Oh and do you not like 3M SMR because it has a lot of fillers?

Originally posted by E30 325i

What about Meguiars #9 2.0? Oh and do you not like 3M SMR because it has a lot of fillers?

Meguiars #9 is even worse. It has more oils and fillers than 3M SMR.

And yes, the reason I do not like either of the above two products is beacuse they do NOT REMOVE your swirls very well. They just FILL them in temporarily.

Originally posted by LuxoM3
ON another note.. ORBITALS DON'T take out swirls or "spiderwebs" aka Oxidation. Of course if you use a glaze or polish with an Orbital, at first it LOOKS like it did, but you are only seeing the glaze/polish filling in the swirl crevasses. After a few weeks, they return.

ORBITALs are meant to apply wax and polish, they don't rotate at a high enough RPM to produce heat/friction to remove surface imperfections (quote from Meguairs rep on phone).

The Rotary can yes, literally take the paint OFF your car. So I advise first timers to use the lowest speed setting 2 or 3 and try a few passes. You'll see results even then. If the passes don't succeed to completely remove the marks, go to 4 or go to a higher cut cleaner (i.e. fine -> medium)

ummmm, Ahem.... Orbitals damn well DO remove swirl marks from your paint if you know how to use it, and you're using the proper pads and products. I know, I own one, and I've used it with success on a cosmos black car....and NO the swirls have NOT returned after a few weeks....and MANY washes later. Matter of fact, it's been a few months since my last "swirl removal session" with the PC, and the finish is still perfect....

And by the way, swirls and spiderwebs are NOT "oxidation"...not by a long shot. Oxidation is what happens to old weather paint finishes, and can be removed by simple hand application of a cleaner wax or mild abrasive polish. Swirl marks are actual marring in the paints or clearcoats finish which can be seen, but NOT felt.... and they too, can be removed with a PC or rotary....

And to suggest to a beginner to use a rotary is pure insanity....I would not practice with a rotary on a car that you care about. A rotary in the hands of someone inexperienced can be serious trouble.

David, you make some good points....many of the same that I made....:clap: You sound like an Autopian to me...;) If you are one, you'll know what I mean!

Originally posted by ///M3ryder NY
David, you make some good points....many of the same that I made....:clap: You sound like an Autopian to me...;) If you are one, you'll know what I mean!


You're right. I am a fellow autopian! You have a good eye.

:eyes1

Here is my ghetto paint diagram.
http://www.hyperionbmw.com/panint-cutaway.gif

Originally posted by David
Also, DO NOT APPLY ANY PRESSURE ON THE POLISHER. Let the weight of the polisher do the work. YOU WILL ruin the machine if you bear down on it.

David, this is the only thing i'm not so sure i agree with you on.... I used to think the same thing until guys on Autopia like "Redcar Guy" and "Carguy" showed me the error of my ways.... I'm not suggesting putting your full body weight on it, but some moderate pressure is needed for very stubborn swirl marks I think. :dunno

Originally posted by ///M3ryder NY


David, this is the only thing i'm not so sure i agree with you on.... I used to think the same thing until guys on Autopia like "Redcar Guy" and "Carguy" showed me the error of my ways.... I'm not suggesting putting your full body weight on it, but some moderate pressure is needed for very stubborn swirl marks I think. :dunno

I honestly don't like the way the machine sounds when I bear down it. It wasn't made for ANY pressure to be put on it. I agree, you could probably get out certain swirls with one pass using this method. But I would rather just let the machine do the work and go over the same area 3 or 4 times to get out the swirls.

The whole selling point of the PC is the SPEED it can generate, not the weight. Breaking the polish down properly using the proper speed combinations will give you the results you are looking for, not applying pressure to the motor.

If you have your PC on speed 6, and you bear down it, then it won't really be spinning @ 6000 OBM, it will be doing something less because it can't spin properly with the extra weight.

Working a polish in to your paint has nothing to with weight, but speed.

JMHO.

:)

PS, I'm not discrediting CARGUY or REDCARGUY. Their work is top notch. This is one of those things where it's different strokes for different folks.

Do what works for you.

I hear ya... and i do! When I say pressure though, I really do mean minimally... I"m not putting alot...just helping it a little bit...

I am no expert detailer... BUT...

I have both the PC Orbital and Rotary and Mr. Autopia himself says in the "book" he prefers to also use the rotary .... but he also says he is more experienced at it too...


I do use the orbital for waxes and polish. And it looks like your car RYDER. All shiny and wet....but only up until recently ....

My M3 was bought used and didn't get a coat of wax in 6 years...
I watched an experienced on-site detailer work the *magic* with a PC orbital only to get home and find the same swirls/scratches under flourescent light (which I use to check my work).

So I went out bought the PC Orbital thinking I could do better....and got the same results. Great finish...but not under the flourescent light.

A quick call to Meguiars and I found out that an orbital and polish don't always produce enough *power* to take out the scratches, swirls and water etching.

So I then bought the Rotary.

It took several passes of fine cut cleaner and swirl remover with a rotary to get about 80% of it out. I probably need to go to a medium cut cleaner to get out the rest of it....

But in all honestly...it only took a few passes with the rotary and fine cut cleaner to see results. I spent 5 hours on the same hood and go nowhere with the orbital.

I thought I was doing things all wrong with the orbital until I got the rotary.

So I agree it's a little daunting to use a rotary for a beginner, but it's not rocket science.

I also agree with Mr. Autotopia that the PC orbital is perfect for 80% of the car detailing out there...

But I also *think* that for really neglected finishes, it's gonna take a bit more ooomph than what an orbital can deliver.


Yeah I could be inexperienced...but my other bimmer buddies are loving their swirl free, scuff free, key-scratch free finish I fixed with my rotary.


Call me *lucky*

Luxo,

I agree with you for the most part, I guess the main difference is what your car's finish is like to begin with. Some cars are more neglected than others and require more aggressive means. I also know, however, (FROM EXPERIENCE) that a rotary can cause serious swirls too... I had a very good body shop polish my hood b/c I could get some stubborn scratches out. Well, the scratches were removed, but I almost cried when I saw the swirls it created when I was out in the proper light. An hour later with the PC, those swirls were gone.

For sure, in the hands of someone experienced, a rotary is a great tool...but there is much less margin for error....

;)

Hey guys, how about color sand? One of the cars my dad's selling 99 blk sl 500 had paintwork on the hood i believe, cuz someone keyed it, and the paint wasn't very even i guess when the bodyshop or whoever repainted i think, anyways, he went all around the car i think, and color sanded it, literally, with sand paper, and i guess soap, and i think he took off a whole layer of the paint and made it completely smooth, yet there are swirls in parts that he has to continue taking out, i didn't see the whole process done, so i'm not sure about some stuff, cost about $200

Originally posted by iwannadinanm3
Hey guys, how about color sand? One of the cars my dad's selling 99 blk sl 500 had paintwork on the hood i believe, cuz someone keyed it, and the paint wasn't very even i guess when the bodyshop or whoever repainted i think, anyways, he went all around the car i think, and color sanded it, literally, with sand paper, and i guess soap, and i think he took off a whole layer of the paint and made it completely smooth, yet there are swirls in parts that he has to continue taking out, i didn't see the whole process done, so i'm not sure about some stuff, cost about $200

I believe what you're referring to is called Wet Sanding. I had that done on an area of my car to remove some surface imperfections from the previous owner. It's safe, and done properly can come out quite nice.

I'm relatively sure though, most work with a rotary and especially sanding like that will leave swirl marks that will then need to be removed with a less aggressive polish.

ahhh ok, yeah wet sanding, the paint feel's realllllly smooth now, just needs to get the swirls out and then polished and waxes i guess

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I have major swirl marks on my car... I thought getting rid of these things was relatively simple! DAMN! Im not very experienced with this whole thing... I think ill just get the car pro detailed every few months, have them get rid of all the swirls and get her looking wet and shiny then just wash and wax inbetween and repeat. My paint isnt in horrible shape but it has a few imperfections. Is the PC orbital buffer better than the rest? Or are they all the same? If it's better, how?

OT, but ive got a few spots on my hood that look like the hood was hit with rocks, can I fix these or would it require repainting (or a CF hood :evil2)? Theres also this spot on my hood that looks very hazy... dont know why, but it just a gray-ish spot about 3/4cm in diameter. Didn't come out even after I washed. I'll take pics of both of these things tomorrow to help explain what im talking about.

what do ya'll think of using 3M™ Perfect-It™ II Rubbing Compound and what are its indications for use. is this too harsh of a compound to use on a green vehicle 10yrs old with decent paint but a few swirls, bird dropping stains that have a hard time getting out?